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Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 20 Jun 2011 08:24
by devesh
do any of us really believe that Libya is some great action take on behalf of protecting Human rights???? Sarkozy and France's almost animalistic urge to screw Libya was disgusting and grotesque. they didn't even try to be subtle. and UK, the obedient poodle, calculated that not only natural resources, but perhaps this was a way to show the world that they can go alone without Uncle protecting them? perhaps, this was the final opportunity before the financial mess in EU becomes unstoppable and UK and France would need some real *hard money* to back up their finances. imvho, the invasion on Libya, when EU is going through so much sh** is highly suspicious.

my bet is there will be a direct link between Libya and any future financial arrangements in EU. and UK and France teaming up is even more interesting. they've realized in open arena that Germany has them by the balls when it comes to their economies. so, foreign invasion and resource grab might be the only way for these countries to stave off domination by Germany.

energy has also become a major point of relationship between Russia and Germany. by opening up a new source of oil, they might be neutering Russian hegemony in this sphere and also taking a preemptive shot to put off any Russo-Germany friendship. just to show rest of Europe and Russo-German sphere is not the only one which can satisfy their energy needs. and US has tacitly supported b/c it serves their purpose of making sure there is no Russo-German Eurasia. since WWI, US has strictly and meticulously followed this agenda.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 21 Jun 2011 05:54
by Neshant
Sarkozy and France's almost animalistic urge to screw Libya was disgusting and grotesque.
That MFer Sarkozy came to India to rebuke MMS "not to kill Christians". And feeble MMS just nodded in silence. Its time to give these holier-than-thou bandits a taste of their own morality. They are the #1 chores in the world.

The European economic stimulus plan = robbing Africa of its resources.

Everywhere I look, there is propaganda in the 'free' press.

Example : Article below is a cover story for weapons being supplied by foreign invaders. This article tries to fool people into believing rebels are reverse engineering & building Soviet weapons in garages.

Lately rebels have been cruising around in well maintained tanks. That in addition to setting up a central bank and a national oil company. It won't be long before they are rolling out F-22s built from discarded tin cans.

----------

Libyan civilians build weapons to fight Gadhafi

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110620/ap_ ... t-74118924

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 23 Jun 2011 22:23
by Theo_Fidel
I'm of the opinion there is concerted attempt to let Gaddafi bleed to death in the desert.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-2 ... rkets.html
Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi is facing a fourth month without the diesel cargoes needed to power tanks as he endures an 11-week air campaign led by NATO.

No vessel delivered the fuel to Qaddafi-controlled ports since February, according to five oil-product traders and three shipbrokers interviewed by Bloomberg. The country, once Africa’s third-largest crude producer, normally got four shipments a month, they said. One vessel holds 34 million liters (9 million gallons), enough to fill all Libyan tanks 18 times over, based on data from IHS Jane’s, a military analysis company.
The United Nations froze Qaddafi’s assets and those of companies linked to the regime, including Libyan National Oil Corp. in February. The measures make it harder for Qaddafi to buy fuel from neighboring countries, said Charles Gurdon, a London-based managing director at Menas Associates, a political- risk consultant.

The Libyan regime faces dwindling finances and shrinking fuel supplies, according to Farhat Bengdara, who ran the central bank before defecting.

“They tried to import fuel by any means, but they couldn’t,” Bengdara said in an interview in Dubai on June 13. “The end is very close.”

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 24 Jun 2011 04:51
by Philip
"Not a single case of rape found" ! The Western fiction and propganda campaign ,launnched by the CIA,etc.,against Ghaddafi,accusing him of ordering "mass rapes" has been completely demolished by Amnesty International and others who found not s shred of evidence whatsoever,not even a single case!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 02037.html

Amnesty questions claim that Gaddafi ordered rape as weapon of war

By Patrick Cockburn
Friday, 24 June 2011

Human rights organisations have cast doubt on claims of mass rape and other abuses perpetrated by forces loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, which have been widely used to justify Nato's war in Libya.

Nato leaders, opposition groups and the media have produced a stream of stories since the start of the insurrection on 15 February, claiming the Gaddafi regime has ordered mass rapes, used foreign mercenaries and employed helicopters against civilian protesters.

An investigation by Amnesty International has failed to find evidence for these human rights violations and in many cases has discredited or cast doubt on them. It also found indications that on several occasions the rebels in Benghazi appeared to have knowingly made false claims or manufactured evidence.

Related articles
Donatella Rovera, senior crisis response adviser for Amnesty, who was in Libya for three months after the start of the uprising, says that "we have not found any evidence or a single victim of rape or a doctor who knew about somebody being raped".

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 24 Jun 2011 11:03
by Pranav
A warning: these videos are graphic and horrific. They’re posted at obamaslibya.com and FederalJack.com, because it’s got hefty security around its site and rock solid courage to speak truth to power.

FederalJack will not back down, and will update the videos on obamalibya.com as new footage arrives.

* The first video shows a Libyan rebel beheading a Libyan soldier. If it looks like Iraq, well golly, the highest percentage of foreign fighters in Iraq (and Chechnya and Afghanistan) came from Eastern Libya. Unhappily for NATO, there’s no avoiding that this video was shot in Libya: The men are speaking a Libyan Arab dialect with its own distinct accent.

* The second video shows gruesome footage of a Libyan rebel cutting up the rotted flesh of a dead soldier and forcing it into the hands of Libyan Prisoners of War, who are lined up in a row so they must eat it.

* Another video shows a group of Rebels sodomizing a civilian with a pistol.

* Another shows a crowd of Rebels hanging and beheading a Libyan soldier.

* Another video shows CIA operatives working side by side Rebel forces, driving around in trucks— proof that U.S. forces are already on the ground and active participants in the atrocities.

* Another video shows several dead Libyan soldiers with their throats cut, lying in the back of a truck. The killings violate the Geneva Conventions of War, which protect enemy soldiers after capture. In the excitement, NATO Rebels encouraged a frightened on-looker to video the butchery and claim that Gadhaffi’s forces were responsible. Afterward, the man with the video grabbed his family and fled the Rebel stronghold. That’s how the video reached the fact-finding group in Tripoli.

ALL VIDEOS CAN BE VIEWED HERE - http://www.obamaslibya.com/

http://theintelhub.com/2011/06/23/the-u ... ar-crimes/

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 24 Jun 2011 21:03
by Theo_Fidel
The west was trying to save the line for a long time with desperate appeals to the rebels. Now it appears it has been shut. The oil for Tripoli is gone. This is probably why Gaddafi tried to defend this town so fanatically.

The end is near now.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/ ... ZF20110620
Libyan rebels have shut off a pipeline in the Western Mountains region that supplies crude from an oilfield in the south to the Zawiyah refinery near the capital Tripoli, a rebel spokesman said on Monday.

"Rebels have turned off a pipeline in Rayayna, which is used to ship oil from the Awbari oilfield in the south to the Zawiyah refinery," rebel spokesman Juma Ibrahim said by phone from the Western Mountains town of Zintan.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 25 Jun 2011 02:19
by shyamd
US and Turkey at it once agian. US is talking to Qaddafi (rumour is that Italy pulled out of ops as soon as it found out). Some sort of temporary deal to get Gaddafi to leave. US will come back in to end the war double quick (but curiously Congress refused to pass the law allowing them to do so today).

The aim is to use diplomacy first for Syria and Libya. If this doesn't work then, the US will step in militarily to save NATO from a long conflict. And in Syria Turkey will make the ground incursion - they have troops in place.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 25 Jun 2011 02:39
by ramana
Its internal US poltics the refusal to allow forces into Libya. NATO is really not performing.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 27 Jun 2011 00:53
by Neshant
One thing is for sure, no country is ever going to trust Europe or the US as an ally. At the back of their mind, countries will be wondering when they will be ripped off.

The pattern is all too familiar.

Get Iraq oil export money to be deposited into a UN fund in the sanction years and then invade the country and grab all that money.

Gain the trust of Libya have it deposit 35 billion in US banks and god knows how much in European banks and then invade the country.

Countries are waking up to the agenda of theft of the gora countries.

Given the above, I wonder if anyone would be foolish enough to invest in the US, hold US debt (which is a paper IOU) or US currency (another IOU) for that matter as savings. Sounds like a serious liability to me and yer likely to be cheated as a foreign creditor. Ditto for Europe.

India better start accumulating physical gold and lots of it as the writing is on the wall. Of course one also needs the means to protect it otherwise a "no-fly zone, don't kill civilians" invasion will be upon us.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 27 Jun 2011 01:39
by UBanerjee
^ Do you really think other countries are populated by naive suckling babes?

There are no "allies", there are interests.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 27 Jun 2011 01:41
by raajneesh
edited.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 27 Jun 2011 01:43
by raajneesh

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 27 Jun 2011 12:40
by Philip
Libya: Nato 'trying to kill Col Gaddafi'
A senior American general involved in the Libyan campaign has admitted that Nato forces are trying to kill Col Muammar Gaddafi, according to a member of the United States Congress.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ddafi.html

XCpts:
By Alex Spillius, Washington and Aislinn Laing in Johannesburg
26 Jun 2011

In the first such admission, Adm Samuel Locklear, commander of the NATO Joint Operations Command in Naples, said that efforts had been stepped up to target the Libyan leader, despite declarations by the Obama administration that "regime change" was not the goal.

The admiral's comments were revealed by Representative Mike Turner, an Ohio Republican and member of the House Armed Services Committee.

Mr Turner has opposed the military intervention from the outset was among those who voted in the House of Representatives last week to deny President Barack Obama the authority to wage war against Libya.

Another motion to stop funding for the war failed.

He told Foreign Policy magazine that he came away from his conversation with Adm Locklear convinced that Nato was acting beyond remit of the United Nations 1973 resolution on Libya, which allowed for enforcement of a no-fly zone and the defence of civilians and against Col Gaddafi's forces.

I believe the scope that Nato is pursuing is beyond what is contemplated in civil protection, so they're exceeding the mission," he said.

The admiral also repeated a comment he made last month that a "small force" might be needed on the ground in the initial stages after the fall of Col Gaddafi's regime.

Mr Obama has been adamant that US ground forces will not be deployed, and is under pressure from anti-war Democrats and Republicans keen to check his power.

"The president hasn't come to Congress and said any of this, and yet Admiral Locklear is pursuing the targeting of Gaddafi's regime, Gaddafi himself, and contemplating ground troops following Gaddafi's removal," said Mr Turner. "They're not being straightforward with Congress... It's outrageous."

Frustrated at their inability to break the military deadlock, Nato commanders in late April expanded the campaign with strikes against military command facilities and other buildings used by Col Gaddafi and his top aides.

Officials have so far taken a wink and a nod approach to such attacks, maintaining they are not part of a strategy of regime change.

"We're picking up attacks on these command-and-control facilities," one official said "If he [Gaddafi] happens to be in one of those buildings, all the better."

Robert Gates, who stands down as US defence secretary at the end of the month, said: "We are not targeting him specifically, but we do consider command and control targets to be legitimate targets wherever we find them."

Leaders of the African Union reiterated calls for a ceasefire to be observed by all sides, including Nato, and an interim government to be established following negotiations President Jacob Zuma of South Africa said signatories to the UN resolution had not intended "to authorise a campaign for regime change or political assassination".

"On the ground, there is a military stalemate which we cannot and must not allow to drag on and on, both because of its horrendous cost in civilian lives and the potential it has to destablise the entire sub-region," he said.

The African leaders communique said welcomed a statement that Col Gaddafi would not interfere with negotiations to end Libya's four-month conflict.

Col Dave Lapan, a Pentagon spokesman, said Adm Locklear’s views had not been accurately reflected on “either US ground troops or the targeting of any individual, including Col Gadaffi”.

“The admiral clearly understands and has repeatedly emphasised the stated objectives for the military mission as set forth” in the resolution, he added.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ddafi.html

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 28 Jun 2011 09:48
by Neshant
UBanerjee wrote:^ Do you really think other countries are populated by naive suckling babes?

There are no "allies", there are interests.
Obviously any fool knows that by now.

Libya's biggest mistake was trusting the United States & Europe.

They should have known that they would be cheated one day.

Any rich, small non-white country that is unable to defend itself is in grave danger no matter how much they believe they are on good terms with the above folks.

After this episode, it will be in no non-white (or maybe even white when it comes to eastern europe!) country's interest to trust US or Europe diplomatically, financially or militarily. Any that do so will be doing so at their own peril.

Even parking funds in those country's banks will become a serious liability as one is liable to get ripped off.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 28 Jun 2011 10:19
by UBanerjee
Neshant wrote:
UBanerjee wrote:^ Do you really think other countries are populated by naive suckling babes?

There are no "allies", there are interests.
Obviously any fool knows that by now.
They must be serious fools if it took them till 2011 to realize it! What, the game played with Saddam wasn't enough? Or Noriega? Or before that, Ngo Dinh Diem? Etc.! All of these including Mahatma Gaddafi are thugs themselves, playing with bigger thugs.

I would take your point and enlarge it- there is no reason to put biratherly trust in another nation period. Even so-called Indic birathers like Sri Lanka or Nepal are hardly exemplars of trustworthiness; they are happy to cavort with whomever and stab at India if it suits them.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 28 Jun 2011 11:13
by Klaus
Tripoli rejects the ruling of the International Criminal Court, which issued an arrest warrant for Muammar Gaddafi.
Libya rejected the warrants issued for Gaddafi, 69, his son Saif al-Islam, 39, and the head of Libyan intelligence, Abdullah al-Senussi, 62, for atrocities committed in a bloody uprising that began mid-February.

The ruling is a "cover for NATO which is still trying to assassinate Gaddafi", said Libya's justice minister, Mohammed al-Gamudi.

Libyan Deputy Foreign Minister Khaled Kaaim said the ICC "functions as a European foreign policy vehicle.

"It is a political court which serves its European paymasters," he said, adding: "Our own courts will deal with any human rights abuses and other crimes committed in the course of conflict in Libya."

ICC chief prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo sought the warrants as thousands died in fighting and an estimated 650,000 people fled the country with Gaddafi clinging to power despite NATO strikes easing the siege of key rebel cities.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 28 Jun 2011 20:51
by Prasad
Neshant,
Resize those pictures and add a NSFW tag to them at the top of the post please!

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 29 Jun 2011 23:00
by brihaspati
Both Russia and China are now talking on a different note isn't it? Gone are the strong "backing" up of Qaddafi! It is interesting to see what line GOI takes now.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 01 Jul 2011 20:32
by Theo_Fidel
This is never a good sign. I never understand why regimes on their last throes do this every single time. This is showing your weakness to the enemy. Stupidity....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/mid ... story.html

In Libya, women brace for battle
Haiba Abdul Qassem was wearing open-toe high heels and heavy makeup, and had a tattered AK-47 slung over her shoulder on a recent afternoon as she vowed to take up arms for Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi.

“I will defend myself, I will defend my country and my leader,” the 39-year-old nanny said as other women in her marksmanship training session shot wildly in the air. “We are an armed nation. Everyone in this nation has weapons.”

With Libya’s conventional forces stretched thin along front lines east and west of Tripoli, government officials say they are scrambling to train volunteers, many of them women, for the looming fight for the capital and other Gaddafi-held areas.
“We are training people in all places under our control,” government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim said. “What they are going to fight is a nation. Every Libyan, every mother — the symbol of mercy and love — will become a bomb, a killing machine.”

Guma el-Gamary, a spokesman for the rebels, dismissed the government’s stated plan as a propaganda ploy. “When they tried to distribute weapons in the past, they ended in the hands of the freedom fighters,” he said, referring to the rebels trying to oust Gaddafi. Gamary, who is based in London, said rebels have been smuggling weapons into Tripoli for months.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 02 Jul 2011 03:06
by brihaspati
Theo ji,
my earlier count was autumn. Is it pushing earlier towards late summer now?

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 02 Jul 2011 08:16
by Theo_Fidel
Bji,

They are 60 kms from the perimeter of Tripoli now. It is obvious the regime is out of fighting men. There will be no more reinforcements to the 3 or 4 major fronts. If any of them collapse the rebels will be in Tripoli within the hour. This sort of stuff is deeply unstable. They could be in Tripoli tomorrow. There seems to have been a coordinated approach to get the Nafusa fighters to finish him off. First the Brega attacks locked down about 2000 of his best troops. Then the Misrata breakout locked in another 1000. The uprising in Zawiya forced another 500 there. Now the regime is defenseless from the South. There is well over 2000 fighters in those mountains and and if they all come down it will be a massacre.

Reminds me of the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan. It took them 2 months to get to Kabul. But once the Taliban line collapsed they took Kabul at a canter.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 02 Jul 2011 10:25
by Pranav

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 02 Jul 2011 23:31
by Theo_Fidel
Yup! Reminds one of the Million person Pro-Mubarak rallies. All the flags are the same size, the posters are the same size, Streamers are perfectly deployed, in parallel straight lines no less, all the hand waving is correo graphed, no other leaders depicted, etc.

Look 'em up in youtube.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 02 Jul 2011 23:43
by Pranav
Gaddhafi has significantly improved the lot of ordinary Libyans:


Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 03 Jul 2011 00:48
by brihaspati
Q is supposed to be threatening "every European" on "European soil" - militarily in retaliation. what with - the poor man's nuke?

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 03 Jul 2011 01:41
by Neshant
Obviously there is no threat from Libya. NATO countries desperately need to whip up some frenzied support for this war among their people because its becoming too obvious the intent is to rob Libya of its resources.

NATO countries are trying to get rebels to grab as many oil fields as possible and then call for negotiations.

Its proving too difficult to take Libya over so they hope to grab a good part of it now, call for negotiations and maybe grab more later.

Something tells me that few years down the line, UAE will be put on the hit-list. Its got all the necessary attributes. Lots of oil, its sitting on $600 billion of money, its has a monarchy that's easily disposed of. All that's needed is a civilian protection opportunity and its good for the taking.

---
NATO: More airstrikes in western Libya

TRIPOLI, Libya (AP) — NATO said Saturday it has begun ramping up its airstrikes on military targets in the western part of Libya, where rebel forces claim a string of advances through territory still largely under Moammar Gadhafi's control.

http://news.yahoo.com/nato-more-airstri ... 34797.html

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 03 Jul 2011 07:15
by Pranav
Qadhafi regime holds talks with rebels amid stalemate
Atul Aneja

The daughter of Libyan strongman Muammar Qadhafi has confirmed that talks to end the country's civil war are underway between regime representatives and the Benghazi based opposition.

Aisha Qadhafi - increasingly the face of the regime, has told France 2 television that the Libyan authorities have been holding “direct and indirect negotiations,” with the opposition. She stressed that the embattled government in Tripoli was ready “to ally with the devil and that is the armed rebels,” in order to “stop letting Libyan blood”.

Analysts point out that in terms of public profile, Ms. Qadhafi appears to have now eclipsed the Libyan leader's son Saif Al Islam, who has been targeted by the International Criminal Court (ICC), for possible war crimes.

Ms. Qadhafi, during the course of her interview, stressed that her father would not leave Libya. “This word departure, departure, departure ... what I find strange is where do you want him to go? This is his country, his land, his people,” she said.

“Where would he go? There is something you don't understand and you will never understand. My father is a symbol, a guide.” she added.

In her verbal assault, the Libyan strongman's daughter focused on the French President Nicolas Sarkozy, and sought to carry her message directly to the French people. “I send a message to the mothers and wives of [French] pilots that are bombarding us,” she said. “Your husbands are not protecting civilians, but killing children and our people to satisfy Sarkozy who thinks the more Libyans he kills the more votes he'll get in elections.”

Ms. Qadhafi's intervention on the airwaves comes amid reports that France has, in Western Libya, airdropped weapons to arm opposition fighters. On Wednesday, France confirmed that it had air dropped weaponry for the opposition fighters in Libya's western mountains. The decision to air drop weapons has been taken after 90 days of air strikes failed to dislodge the Qadhafi regime.

France's decision has deepened its differences with Russia, China and the African Union (A.U). Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has said that France had committed a “crude violation” of a U.N. weapons embargo on Libya imposed by the United Nations Security Council. Mr. Lavrov said that Moscow had sought further details from France. “We are awaiting a response. If it is confirmed, it's a flagrant violation”, of the resolution, he said.

Without naming France, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson, Hong Lei, called on “the international community to strictly follow the spirit of the relevant resolution of the U.N. Security Council and avoid taking any action that goes beyond the mandate of the resolution”.

On Thursday, A.U. Commissioner Jean Ping, said that distribution of weapons to Libya would cause “destabilisation” of African states.

“What worries us is not who is giving what, but simply that weapons are being distributed by all parties and to all parties. We already have proof that these weapons are in the hands of al-Qaeda, of traffickers,” Mr. Ping said.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 150747.ece

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 03 Jul 2011 12:02
by Theo_Fidel
Well now we know why those streamers were so straight, apparently SOP, on pain of death no less...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... e788d5.381

Libyans 'executed' for shunning Kadhafi rally: relative
Mohammed told AFP why he is certain 30-year-old's Ahmed's fate was sealed while green flags were waving on the other side of the capital and as Kadhafi dished out threats against Europe, NATO and Libyan "traitors" on Friday. Ahmed's execution, he said, was punishment for his family's refusal to take part in the rally, a vital show of strength by the Libyan leader amid a five-month-long uprising that has pushed the regime to the brink of collapse. "Four or five days ago a member of one of Kadhafi's revolutionary committees approached my brother's family in Tripoli," the 50-something Mohammed told AFP on Saturday, his voice ringing with anger and mourning. "They told him: 'We have your son, he is being held at Abu Salim prison. If your family does not come out to demonstrate on Friday you will never see your son again'."
"The bullet wounds were fresh. He was shot this morning, even the blood was still warm," Mohammed said from the safety of Benghazi, after reaching his brother using clandestine communications earlier in the day. Mohammed said he knows of at least two other families in their neighbourhood of Tripoli who also received their sons' bodies on Saturday morning. Both had also refused to attend the Kadhafi rally.
"There is nothing but air and God in Tripoli," he said. "You are either with Kadhafi or you starve." "I just want the world to know how Kadhafi works," added Mohammed, explaining his reasons for speaking out. Despite the dangers "we are obliged to put this out in the open," he said.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 03 Jul 2011 12:15
by UBanerjee

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 03 Jul 2011 12:32
by Pranav
Theo_Fidel wrote:Well now we know why those streamers were so straight, apparently SOP, on pain of death no less...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... e788d5.381

Libyans 'executed' for shunning Kadhafi rally: relative
There is hardly any reason to take at face value stuff that is being spewed out by western mass media. The garbage about "**** for rapes" being peddled in the UN by the US was shown to be fabricated.

There are also reports about the horrific brutalities of the rebels backed by colonial powers.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 03 Jul 2011 12:51
by UBanerjee
So I guess we'll have to wait for the Indic reporters to go in as opposed to swallowing Mahatma Gaddafi's agitprop whole (and of course that of his backers).

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 03 Jul 2011 12:56
by CRamS
What a tragic situation unfolding in Libya. I mean there are no good guys, neither the monkey Quaddafi, nor the rebel chutiyas, nor the US-led NATO oil thieves; every one of them are ass holes. What these pro-NATO folks on BR don't realize is that Libya is essentially a tribal society. May not confirm to modern notions of nationhood, but essentially people were happy in their own way. Its only outside intervention by the NATO thieves under the guise of some moral BS that disturbs this natural equilibrium and we see killing on this scale. Hack thoo.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 03 Jul 2011 13:20
by UBanerjee
How exactly is the dominance of one small set of tribes (including Gaddafiji's of course), while suppressing those of rival tribes with regular slaughter, a "natural equilibrium"? Essentially doling out oil favors to those who share in the spoils- the nexus of favored tribes- while shutting out the others.

I completely agree these societies do not fit into the modern Westphalian nation-state system and that the NATO intervention is hardly a crusade for justice. That is not however a reason to paint this as a "innocent savages living happy in their own way". Not one here would be thrilled about living under an buffoonish tyrant like Gaddafi themselves of course. However if some other people who actually suffer his rule are fighting this power, they are now "traitors" (a term used earlier in this thread copiously, as well as other abuse heaped on the rebels). Collaboration is always an evil but if not for that, they would have perished.

You cannot cut off and trample on an appendage and then blame it when it fights back, and then blame it again when it turns to others to survive. You then reap what you sow.

I guess the uprisings in Egypt, Tunisia, Syria, Yemen and Bahrain are all comprised of "chutiyas" as well. Who here thinks those whom Assad is beating down would reject outside help to survive?

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 03 Jul 2011 13:26
by Theo_Fidel
Don't forget the history of the disgusting half naked fakir as well. Those brown skins can't be trusted to rule their own country, etc...
Those who live in NATO provided glass houses, etc...

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 03 Jul 2011 13:33
by Neshant
Judging by the tens if not hundreds of millions NATO countries have killed throughout their history, Gadaffi comes out looking like a saint. He may be a dictator in his own country controlling warring tribes but it is his own country. Foreign powers would like nothing more than to install their own dictator subserviant to their interests.

That being said, he isn't half bad. Under him, Libya has become one of the few countries in Africa with good infrastructure, an educated population, a state with its own massive gold reserves, foreign investments and wealth which invaders are looking to grab. Its citizens enjoy a much higher standard of living than almost all countries in Africa - perhaps the highest if one excludes the whites of South Africa.

Moreover he champions the cause of Africa and is trying to setup a cooperative relationship in the continent based on finance & diplomacy. That way African countries aren't so easily divided up and ripped off by foreign powers. Of course colonialists don't want this. They much rather keep the Africans in debt trap to the IMF.

To conclude : foreign powers are out to loot the country. Amen.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 03 Jul 2011 22:57
by Neshant
One good thing about this invasion is that its giving European thieves some much needed bad publicity all over the world.

Meanwhile it looks like Operation Oil Grab is running into rough weather with the coalition (of thieves) trying to sweet talk Gadaffi out of his chair.

-----------

Gaddafi can stay in Libya if he quits: rebel chief

BENGHAZI, Libya (Reuters) - Muammar Gaddafi is welcome to live out his retirement inside Libya as long as he gives up all power, Libya's rebel chief told Reuters on Sunday in the clearest concession the rebels have so far offered.

Gaddafi is still holding on to power, five months into a rebellion against his 41-year rule and despite a NATO bombardment and an International Criminal Court arrest warrant for crimes against humanity.

"As a peaceful solution, we offered that he can resign and order his soldiers to withdraw from their barracks and positions, and then he can decide either to stay in Libya or abroad," rebel leader Mustafa Abdel Jalil said in an interview.

http://news.yahoo.com/clinton-slams-gad ... 42203.html

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 04 Jul 2011 01:15
by UBanerjee
Neshant wrote:Judging by the tens if not hundreds of millions NATO countries have killed throughout their history, Gadaffi comes out looking like a saint.
Sure. Idi Amin is also a saint, Mugabe is also a saint, Charles Taylor is of similar sainthood, and they are all anti-colonial saints. Mao was also heroic anti-colonial fighter he is our birather also. Indeed.
Neshant wrote: He may be a dictator in his own country controlling warring tribes but it is his own country.
Right. And this one is the Gandhi family's own country. :roll: Time to sing happy songs and wave flags at the honor of living in their personal country!
Neshant wrote: Foreign powers would like nothing more than to install their own dictator subserviant to their interests.
Gaddafi was subservient to foreign powers after invasion of Iraq. Perhaps you missed that.

Mubarak was subservient, he got ousted also. Saleh is about to get ousted. Forgot, it is brilliant super-chankian move by foreign powers that these fellows got ousted.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 04 Jul 2011 01:37
by devesh
guys, you are all getting emotional about Libya. there are some simple conclusions to draw here:

1. the "promises" that West makes are useless. even after Libya gave up nukes and became "friends" suddenly they got invaded.
2. A country without nukes and a formidable military, if it has valuable resources, it a ripe target for West.
3. the "sudden" attack on Qadhafi suggests that something changed or new event(s) has happened which changed the West's objectives in North Africa.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 04 Jul 2011 01:49
by Theo_Fidel
IMO Gaddafi threatened Europe, esp. w/ illegal immigrants. Hence being taken down.

He threatens Europe violently again and France arms the rebels. He was useful as long as he kept the peace and kept the Africans out. Since he can't do that now he is expendable.

Re: Libyan War : Political and strategic aspects

Posted: 04 Jul 2011 02:33
by brihaspati
I know, a lot of people, very well intentioned no doubt, find Gaddafi perhaps the lesser evil than NATO, or find sympathy for him because of NATO+USA's realpolitik. Along with Theo ji, I think I am one of the few who wanted Gaddafi gone, and hence found any move against him - welcome. Many who know my posts, found it surprising.

I will lay out the reasoning again for my position. Hope that clears the air.

(1) Q had been making noises in favour of Kashmiri Islamist separatists - and I have quoted his statement here on this thread before.

(2) Q was in a position to fund Islamist terrorists, and he has a track record of doing it. Yes it is entirely possible, and I personally think it reasonable to suppose that his long stay in dictatorial power was at least partially due to a kind of understanding if not direct collaboration with "western" secret services and he helped with men, money and resources or networks to get things done that coincided with western interests under the banner of Islamism. But becuase of this possibility - even, if he was a stooge of the USA, or UK or France for that matter, whoever finishes him off - even if it is his ex-buddies on the darkside - is good news for me.

(3) The first round of uprisings against pre-existing dictators of the Islamic world, may appear more negative in Islamist terms to naive analysis from outside. What really happens is that instead of being controllable from one single point - which is convenient for most enemies of India [not necessarily of GOI - I mean this on a civilizational sense] - Islamism becomes more chaotic and "democratic". Such a phase always absorbs a lot of the nation's energy - and which for me is good news again. I have no illusions - and I have stated this many time before - that this round will be started by dreamers but won by the mullahs in the end, but that is necessary for the disillusion to set in. For that we need the mullahs in power - so that the next gen gets to identify them with the ills of power. Iran has already shown the trajectory.

For me, dictators or authoritarians are only good if they help necessary societal transition towards desired directions indicated by socio-economic forces, but where such transitions were not taking place because of rashtryia bottlenecks. Moreover such authoritarians must be time-limited and must be deposed or "retired" once the job is done.

What has Q done in his society's transition? Towards what? If after 40 years he still doesn't have anything broader as a polity than his sons or daughters, if through all his leadership - only the Islamists have grown so powerful that they will take over when he falls - can we not see that he is a "failed" dictator? Failed in the sense that we want such societies to change towards?

I have no great unqualified love for the Anglo-Saxon imperialist coteries, but our distrust and legitimate hatred for them should not blind us to the tactical benefits of them finishing off people like Q, and above all we should be able to take into account all aspects of a ruling personality. Q fails on all counts. Even for the larger political targets that we should use to determine what is in India's interests [again not necessarily in GOI or ruling party interests].