The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 07 Jun 2011 00:48

Pranav wrote:
rsingh wrote:IMO govt did right thing. You can not try to overthrow a govt elected by democratic ways. Want to make difference.........fight in election and win to form govt. That is the way. What if Harami Gilani does the same with the help of other parasites and do the bhukh hartal to take Kashmir to Bakistan?
rsingh, you should stop talking about democracy with present EVM system. Estimates are that without EVMs Congress tally would have been 70 seats lower.

Also, what do you mean "overthrow a govt". This was a completely non-violent protest against the looting of the couuntry.

This EVM theory is complete crap Saar. BJP lost and that is it. This non violent protest is a Blackmailing at best and nothing else. in case you could not read my post in full I am pasting last line once more
What if Harami Gilani does the same with the help of other parasites and do the bhukh hartal to take Kashmir to Bakistan?

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 07 Jun 2011 00:51

Gilani has already picked up the gun. So have the naxals and their supporters (figuratively). A peaceful protest is a different thing - the government will eventually be overthrown at the ballot box (or not). Do you expect all to continue with no response until the day of the ballot?

munna · Post by **munna** » 07 Jun 2011 01:14

Err friends please do not lose cool! BRD is not blackmailing anyone as any Anshan or bhookh hartal will not result in overthrow of government in India that enjoys full majority in Lok Sabha. Therefore the question of gilani or anybody does not come in. It is another matter that his fast may cause some defections from ruling alliance, in that case there is nothing unconstitutional about it. Ram-ji (Jethmalani) stated categorically on Times Now that it is the duty of opposition in any democracy to show the gate to an unresponsive, mass torturer and arrogant government. Supreme Court that is responsible for sending Kani and Kalmadi to jail will not be taken in by wkk bluster. Political compulsions of government are no ground to curtail fundamental rights of Indian citizens and this will be decided in the courts once and for all. The GOI will have to answer in courts and since this involves matter pertaining to "basic structure of constitution" supremacy of legislature argument is defunct by default.

EVM theory is a big joke as far as I feel after giving some thought to the matter and listening to folks inside the opposition camp. BJP shot itself in the foot by using and throwing their mass based MBC and OBC leaders of yore to prop up a Delhi based pretorian guard composed of rootless wonders. These wonders who are darlings of some of our posters caused the reverses seen in the past. To revive it's fortunes the right has to come down from high horse and reject dogmas of old era. More power to mavericks like BRD as they are better opposition currently than BJP with it's 120 odd MPs.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jun 2011 01:29

To add to munna's views about the legislative majority of UPA here is NSV in newsinsight.net

http://www.newsinsight.net/archivedebat ... recno=2152

Thugs in power
The depredations of the UPA will continue till at least 2014, warns N.V.Subramanian.

6 June 2011: How could the Manmohan Singh government commit the ultimate political hara-kiri of authorizing a police assault on peaceful satyagrahis in the heart of the Capital?

That comes of having a non-political prime minister like Manmohan Singh, of concentrating political power outside a constitutional government in the person of Sonia Gandhi, and of using power for everything other than governance.

The UPA was a noxious project from the day authority was divided between Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi. He had no power and all the responsibility. She had no responsibility and all the power.

By demanding to know who ordered the brutal eviction of Ramdev and his peaceful satyagrahis from Ramlila Maidan, the Supreme Court is in the process of opening a can of worms. Since Delhi's law and order comes under the Union home ministry, to which Delhi Police is principally responsible, it would be a simple case.

This being that the Union home ministry, under P.Chidambaram, authorized the police assault. But in a politically sensitive case like Ramdev's satyagraha, Chidambaram would not risk acting on his own. In normal course, the prime minister would order any such action after cabinet clearance.

The prime minister has been silent on the Ramdev issue. That is not unusual. Manmohan Singh rarely speaks. A taciturn PM is a blessing in some ways. Imagine Digvijay Singh in that position.

But does the PM's studied silence also convey something? This writer would not know. But there is strenuous attempt on the part of his officials to distance from the police assault on Ramdev's satyagraha. Their standard response is, "We didn't know about it."

If a clear line of authority had been established in the decision to attack the satyagrahis, perhaps the attack would not have taken place. Pranab Mukherjee who was involved in the earliest negotiations with Ramdev called the police assault "unfortunate". He says Ramdev's concerns about black money stashed abroad were valid and legitimate.

They are. But the fact that Pranab Mukherjee described the police assault as "unfortunate" means he was not involved in that decision. Pranab Mukherjee is the virtual number two in the cabinet. That suggests it was not a cabinet decision to mount the brutal assault on the satyagrahis.

So what do we have so far, admittedly on the strength of indirect deduction? The PM is silent, and while this may be usual, it does not appear so. His officials make categorical attempts to mark distance from the police action. Pranab calls it unfortunate. So that leaves him out of the decision, and so perhaps the cabinet as a collective.

If the number one and two men of the government have disowned the police assault in one way or another (after reading this, their complicity may be extorted), then who ordered it?

This represents a full-blown constitutional crisis. This absolutely advertises the powerlessness of the prime minister and of the Union cabinet.

The Congress party says it was not consulted on the police assault. But Kapil Sibal, not a man you would like to have as a friend, says there was one hundred per cent compact between the government and party on the police assault.

So who is lying?

So this is what the Manmohan Singh government and Congress party have become: a party of liars and a government packed with mendacious and fascist ministers.

Under the UPA, you are robbed blind. Food and fuels are so exorbitant as to have become luxuries. The only things in surfeit are scams: CWG, 2G, Antrix-Devas, Adarsh, Hasan Ali, black money...

And anyone who complains against corruption or peacefully protests the stashing of black money abroad is savaged by police. One of the Ramlila satyagrahis, a woman of fifty, is critical with spinal injuries sustained during the police charge.

L.K.Advani made an apt reference to Jallianwala Bagh. And Anna Hazare ranks the Congress regime equal to the oppressive British.

Although the Manmohan Singh government has lost moral authority, its depredations will continue. While this government remains in power, we shall all have to forgo our sleep.

archan · Post by **archan** » 07 Jun 2011 01:32

rsingh ji pindi waale,
are you implying that nobody should be allowed to hold protests against any govt. action/inaction? they should all be told to go fight an election which could be 5 years into the future?
It is mostly the people who do fight elections that lead such protests, so those guys should be jailed? some of the recent protests by the farmers against the UP Govt. were lead by Rahul Gandhi. Should the guy be prosecuted for that?
fwiw, Ramdev ji does have a political party.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 07 Jun 2011 01:38

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Aide-hold ... 06557.aspx

attempts to ~~cheer haran~~ harass BR begins from govt (ED, IT) and non govt dept (media)

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 07 Jun 2011 01:42

rsingh ji,

Bringing back the the black money and giving Kashmir to Pak are same demands? What kind of == is this. One is a demand which resonates with the common man on the streets and other is a demand which is sedition against the union of India. What kind of snake oil are u trying to peddle.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 07 Jun 2011 01:51

Black money would be enough to feed 60 crore people: Somaiya
http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/n ... 16149.html

How black money can transform India
http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/tathagatabh ... india.html

The great black money chase
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ind ... epage=true

Enough laws to tackle black money: Sharma (defending black money!!)
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/en ... ma/799829/

Digvijay spokesman for those with black money: Bharti
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Digvi ... ti/799639/

Carrots And Sticks
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 749568.cms

Some Congress ministers and secretaries are in desperate to defend their regular unknown and unidentifiable donors who put pressure on them. The Government will be at all out war with those who are trying to talk about or work against or try to bring the black money from overseas. It includes some high officials who have got millions of dollars as gifts or donations for some govt approval for a medical college or university and so on. They cannot let it go easily without a big fight with those who try to publicise and bring back the black money. They can easily accuse the protestor as RSS or Fraud and so on. This shows their desperation to protect their own money as well as their own funding agencies.

negi · Post by **negi** » 07 Jun 2011 02:00

RSingh bin lahori logic; stashing away money in foreign banks which has not been declared to the IT department in India is not only 'tax theft' but is a criminal offense ( 'money laundering' and all that), BRD is only asking the GoI to act against a 'crime'; on the other hand asking for a separate country based on religion is against our preamble (secular and all that) . There is a reason why SC has been dragged into BRD's case.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 07 Jun 2011 02:01

One thing i never understood. Why MMS, all of sudden, finds his backbone when he either gets criticized by or he has to reply to BJP/RSS?. What emboldens him so much?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jun 2011 02:08

Bashing those two is a secular rallying call. Just like Pakis claim India is resurgent, seculars in India say Hindus are resurgent.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 07 Jun 2011 02:09

Archan Saar.... I explained simple thing in simple words for simple mullahs. Now let me to simplify it further. It is ok to protest. Protest about price hike,corruption,berojgari etyadi. People protest,protests are hijacked by political parties as it suits them and that may change policies. BUT what BBR is doing is not simple protest.He is challenging the fabric of Indian society. To day it is corruption tomorrow it will be some self serving agenda. We are setting wrong precedent here and we will regret in long term.

How come nobody on BR can face the comment I made earlier ..........writing it 3rd time here
What if Harami Gilani does the same with the help of other parasites and do the bhukh hartal to take Kashmir to Bakistan?
What if Maoist dogs do the same ? Peacfull protest to change the govt ..........to the shining path.

Bringing back the the black money and giving Kashmir to Pak are same demands

To some later one is even more important. Just tell me how you will crush such a protest?

And guys nothing personal please.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 07 Jun 2011 02:12

What if Harami Gilani does the same with the help of other parasites and do the bhukh hartal to take Kashmir to Bakistan?

If that is possible than i would go on "Bhukh Hartall" for GOI making arrangement for me to go in bed with Katarina or Deepika.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 07 Jun 2011 02:14

rsingh wrote:Archan Saar.... I explained simple thing in simple words for simple mullahs. Now let me to simplify it further. It is ok to protest. Protest about price hike,corruption,berojgari etyadi. People protest,protests are hijacked by political parties as it suits them and that may change policies. BUT what BBR is doing is not simple protest.He is challenging the fabric of Indian society. To day it is corruption tomorrow it will be some self serving agenda. We are setting wrong precedent here and we will regret in long term.

How come nobody on BR can face the comment I made earlier ..........writing it 3rd time here
What if Harami Gilani does the same with the help of other parasites and do the bhukh hartal to take Kashmir to Bakistan?
What if Maoist dogs do the same ? Peacfull protest to change the govt ..........to the shining path.

Bringing back the the black money and giving Kashmir to Pak are same demands
To some later one is even more important. Just tell me how you will crush such a protest?

And guys nothing personal please.

rsingh-bin-lahori-logic,

if the govt cannot differentiate between legitimate and illegitimate demands, then it is no govt at all. It is better to throw such govts into the dustbin.

No, those demands are not equal.

These two demands are not equal.
i) Asking for kashmir's secession
ii) Asking for one's right to fly India's flag in Srinagar.
however you may twist the words.

munna · Post by **munna** » 07 Jun 2011 02:21

rsingh wrote: To some later one is even more important. Just tell me how you will crush such a protest?

And guys nothing personal please.

Singh Saab the real question is who deems the andolan to be "crush worthy" and following what set of rules and precedents? Clearly a movement calling for sedition and overthrow of government outside of defined procedures will run afoul of our constitution in no time. However a movement calling for declaration of black money as national property is certainly not worthy of mass torture at midnight by a supposedly democratic government.

The question is not how do you crush a moverment because as of now it is not decided whether the unarmed fasting crowd was "crush worthy"(in your language) or not. The incident may set serious precedent whereby tomorrow Mayawati may order skulls to be broken of assorted Congi worthies in Bhatta Parsaul or Narender Modi may "tadipar" entire Congi establishment for no rhyme or reason.

The matter is now sub-judice and only courts can say whether the crowd was worthy of "crush". It is unfortunate that I am hearing these words in the context of my country, but thank god for courts.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Jun 2011 02:31

rsingh wrote:IMO govt did right thing. You can not try to overthrow a govt elected by democratic ways. Want to make difference.........fight in election and win to form govt. That is the way. What if Harami Gilani does the same with the help of other parasites and do the bhukh hartal to take Kashmir to Bakistan?

Did BR claim to overthrow the "government"? I am not sure, if there is some officially recorded [and authentic] statement please post it. I am not a great fan of BR's current methods, which I had warned against a lot in the past repeatedly - especially for his position. Exactly the things I had warned of is being implemented by the Congress - because BR could not wait to keep the spiritual/social reorganization movement separate from the political moves, and my conclusion was that BR would be targeted for political and possibly physical elimination. Moreover all this will be used to further tar and feather the "saffron" and the "Hindu" - which is the underlying ideological compact driving the Congress core now.

Now for Gilani [can we drop your used adjective please - we are not Pakis or Islamists are we? that particular epithet is rooted in Islamist lingo - "haram"]: does Gilani even need to do a bhukh-hartal to press his demands? He can do so from within the safety of government protection and in Delhi too - accompanied by "democratically" selected [because they were appointed or selected by a "democratically elected" government] women leaders and protectors or "democratic rights".

We have no direct proof of EVM's having been rigged. But neither have we had any disproof either. The government and EC moved quickly to quash any such attempt at exploration of the possibility of tampering. Almost all "western" countries - with much greater mechanism of transparency and public audit for these things than ours - have all reverted back to the primitive slip of paper and transparent box. Specifically to address the public confidence issue. Of course the Congress can play patriot and "indigenous" only on such issues - selectively.

The Kashmir bogey, and the Islamist bogey is an old "kumbhir-shaavaka" of the Congress. Anyone using it to justify asphyxiating BR movement, is consciously or subconsciously repeating the congress tactical line. The Congress has always protected Islamism in any form, and Pakistani and Kashmiri Islamism in particular - because they can use it to keep the majority non-Muslims of India in thrall. Congress plays the middleman - threatening the Hindu with itself leaning over more to Islamism and blaming the violence unleashed by Islamists on the "Hindu" if the Hindu does not submit. At the same time the Hindu is proffered to the Islamists as a potential threat for Muslims from which only the Congress can protect them.

Its the classic pure mercantile trader mentality in politics - the pure dalaal/mutsuddi - who profits from a trade war and antagonism, and does all within its capacity to maintain the divide from which it can profit.

It is naive at the least and dishonest at the max to call for suppression of all protests against government as "extra-constitutional" and "anti-democratic" since not all issues can be foreseen at the time elections happen, and not all issues can be put on the agenda at the time of campaigning. Moreover there is no "right" to recall, and no constitutional procedure to penalize elected representatives for behaviour/steps/activities/policies after election on issue-by-issue basis - apart from not voting for them again. But these guys are not penalized for any damage they have caused by their inactivity or support to groups which are damaging for the electorate during their time at the legislature.

If extra-Constitutional methods of expressing popular dissatisfaction against a government are anti-democratic, then the why did the Congress go for the 1942 movement after quitting the ministries in 1939?

If the popular perception grows that the current electoral system only allows rich candidates [or with networks to supply undisclosed amounts of dunds] or candidates with extensive criminal network background and nexus with big or mid level business interests inside and outside the country and black money channels to get elected on the whole - more and more popular dissatisfaction will take the "extra-constitutional" route. Pockets of apparent convergence with popular will does not necessarily imply general confidence of the people in the system.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 07 Jun 2011 02:48

RSinghji,

Pardon me for saying so, but your question about Gilani, and your rhetoric of "blackmail", "crushing" and "overthrow" suggest a very profound ignorance of the basis of Satyagraha.

Satyagraha depends on the fact that the masses will perceive the sacrifice of the agitator as justified in the light of absolute moral authority. It works, only if the people at large decide that whatever the Satyagrahi is fasting/protesting for, is morally right and worthy of their support. It is the antithesis of realpolitik and cynicism (which have become ubiquitous, enervating social tropes in this age of money-grubbing mercantilism.) That is exactly why Anna Hazare and Baba Ramdev have managed to rouse the imagination of the Indian polity on such a tremendous scale.

Once upon a time there were Indians who accused Gandhi's "Quit India" Satyagraha of being "blackmail"... M.A. Jinnah was one such worthy. But it worked, because the Indian people at large saw the *cause* behind "Quit India" as morally justified. Not what should be or could be, but what must be.

What is BR asking for? People at all levels to be accountable for black money, and an end to governmental corruption. There is no question in the minds of the Indian public that this is a demand with moral authority. Therefore, with the small exception of the Maino chamchoos among the elite, they support his Satyagraha.

What would Gilani be asking for, if he went on a fast? A secession of J&K from India and its accession to Pakistan. Fine. Let him do it. The key question is, will such a "Satyagraha" have any impact on the minds of the Indian people? What will the public think of the "moral authority" of the issue behind Gilani's "Satyagraha"? Does the idea that J&K should secede to Pakistan, command any moral authority with the Indian public?

I do not think so. I think people will say, "we are sorry you feel that way Gilani sahab, but the Constitution is not negotiable. When you get hungry let us know, we will warm up some kababs and rogan josh for you." End of story.

Of course, there are certain ideologies which will *never* successfully adopt Satyagraha, because the inordinate commitment and discipline of the Satyagrahi comes from a belief held firmly in the higher mind... the human mind. Other tactics, such as committing violence and suicide bombing, are premised on the basest impulses of the animal mind. It is much easier for some ideologies to induce such combustible tendencies in the animal mind (as they are already doing,) than to formulate the sort of moral argument, and inculcate the necessary commitment to Satyagraha based on such an argument in the minds of their followers. Those ideologies do not permit their followers to think for themselves as a matter of course; they control by fear and dominate through violence. Deprived of the power to think for oneself, one can never achieve the level of commitment required for Satyagraha.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 07 Jun 2011 03:08

Why is everyone on this "Get rid of Black Money" band wagon? I mean really? What is so bad bad about Black Money?

Hear me out.

In principle and in theory, everyone ought to pay their share of taxes so the govt can run and use this money for its operation.

That is all and good and I have no disagreement in theory and in principle.

But we need to go beyond theory and look at reality of what the govt of India does with the tax money.

First lets take the various State govts. For. eg in Tamil Nadu, the state govt is so corrupt (no matter if which party) that they have enough loot to give out free color TV for elections. The state of affairs in other state is not all that prettier with the exception of few states like Gujarat. They are highly inefficient to provide any social service. Hardly 10 Paisa for every rupee gets spend on projects that usually atrophies after a few years.

The central govt is not any better. The congress Party that has ruled India for over 90% of the time apart from national defense (Even that, the officers are hardly paid anything), they are not any better than the state in providing services. They are corrupt and inefficient to the point of irrelevancy.

The Black Money is still very much part of India's economy. Goods are exchanged and fair market price is used to arbitrate Supply and Demand. So it does not really hurt the economy of India at all! Its just that these corrupt govt bureaucrats are not able to get their share to loot for their spending spree that helps no one.

My suggestions to all rich business people of India is this. Please do your civic duty. But not pay to the silly congress govt or even your state govt (unless you live in Punjab or Gujarat) and do charity. Yes. Spend your fair share of tax money yourself to help others. Even sending your drivers children or your maid's children to school and college or sponsoring event like having health care for your local slums, or building public toilet facility at your local slums and managing these efforts yourself or your spouse is so much better than abdicating your hard earned money to the corrupt govt of India.

I believe Black Money is the best thing going for India. By not funding the inefficient organizations that do nothing good for the public you are doing your moral civic duty as a citizen.

If and when the govt decides to rectify their character, and you believe that they can mange the funds better than you can, then handover to them. Until then, you are the best person in spending your money to helping others which is your civic duty. The end results count. Not some BS theories which we Indians are good at debating and pontificating about.

So there! Think outside the Box!

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 07 Jun 2011 03:18

rsinghJi, cut the crap ji, no comparison between BR and AH's motives & demands Vs A Paki desire for the valley.

I posted yesterday on the TSP forum, but next time anyone says MMS is opposed to use of force, military etc because he is a so called economist at heart, please think again and recall his merciless assualt on unarmed men, women, and children at the Ramlila grounds in Delhi yesterday. Moral of the story is that his appeasemnt of TSP and willing to meet India's terrorist nemesis more than half way is not indicative of his economist mindset, but rather something more sinister.

negi · Post by **negi** » 07 Jun 2011 03:31

Manny wrote:
..... sniping the irrelevant data...

The Black Money is still very much part of India's economy. Goods are exchanged and fair market price is used to arbitrate Supply and Demand. So it does not really hurt the economy of India at all! Its just that these corrupt govt bureaucrats are not able to get their share to loot for their spending spree that helps no one.

........

So there! Think outside the Box!

Your argument is based on the 'ASSUMPTION' that black money in question is part of India's economy; what's the basis for this assumption ?

Secondly you seem to have over looked the fact that 'money laundering' via hawala channels is a major source of funding terror activities in India that is why stashing away money in such huge quantity in tax havens cannot be considered as a small issue of 'tax evasion' , for a start the source of that money needs to be found and recorded with the GoI and for this IT returns have to be filed.

Coming to your point about whole objective of paying taxes to the state, well to be fair things haven't deteriorated to that level. Almost entire organised sector pays taxes today (some might be stealing a penny here and there but nothing like cases involving Hasan Ali). BRD is not asking for heads of those who are evading taxes (that is a clever ploy to trivialise the whole issue) ; he is asking for action to be taken against folks who have stashed crores in tax havens (an amount one cannot amass in India by just evading taxes).

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 07 Jun 2011 04:10

I'm still waiting for the 'Indian Spring'. Go Hosni Manmohan Singh Go!

There is no question of 'overthrowing a democratically elected government', they are just being asked to resign and call a new election. They don't care, they are not accountable and they don't govern.

MMS who could not be bothered about Mumbai, flexes his muscles on the Ramdev crowd. Of course, he will be saved by the BJP who will instantly reorganize themselves into their patented circular firing squad mode.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 07 Jun 2011 04:31

negi wrote: Your argument is based on the 'ASSUMPTION' that black money in question is part of India's economy; what's the basis for this assumption ?

I am not making assumptions that all black money is part of Indian economy. Although I admit, I did not make an distinction in my post. Mea Culpa. The ones that kept outside India and spent outside is an issue. But I meant, money that is black within India.

negi wrote:

Secondly you seem to have over looked the fact that 'money laundering' via hawala channels is a major source of funding terror activities in India that is why stashing away money in such huge quantity in tax havens cannot be considered as a small issue of 'tax evasion' , for a start the source of that money needs to be found and recorded with the GoI and for this IT returns have to be filed.

Again, I was only addressing tax evasion. not monies kept outside the Indian economy. I have no problems going after those monies kept outside the Indian economy. I concede that point.

As for as terror, thats something that needs to be addressed as terrorism issue. And its a non sequitur to my point.

negi wrote:

Coming to your point about whole objective of paying taxes to the state, well to be fair things haven't deteriorated to that level. Almost entire organised sector pays taxes today (some might be stealing a penny here and there but nothing like cases involving Hasan Ali). BRD is not asking for heads of those who are evading taxes (that is a clever ploy to trivialise the whole issue) ; he is asking for action to be taken against folks who have stashed crores in tax havens (an amount one cannot amass in India by just evading taxes).

OK.. I may have narrowed down the issue a tad too much. But I do stand by my point on Indians within India not paying their taxes. I actually am happy about it. I think its a good thing for India. The problem is the govt needs to show that it is worthy of being trusted when it comes to spending other peoples money for social program that has almost all been a failure.

I believe It's a patriotic duty not to fund a socialist govt that steals from you and loot the fund for their own nefarious activities that do not even help any "under privileged" society in their silly schemes for photo-ops.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Jun 2011 05:22

Either pachedermic personalities hit with missiles or mass scale swindling and bribery happens for many voters to wake up.. Hope they wake up for not going back to sleep after watching the show. The poor aam aspects must be ignored since full bright young blood and capable living a decent lives are actually behind taking leader ship roles in voting. Besides, many don't vote, and continue to keep blaming everything else.

so.. are these the event good enough for the real wake up? Arrrrey! we need another MG. And I don't see that anywhere, in the near future happening.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 07 Jun 2011 05:25

rsingh wrote:Archan Saar.... I explained simple thing in simple words for simple mullahs. Now let me to simplify it further. It is ok to protest. Protest about price hike,corruption,berojgari etyadi. People protest,protests are hijacked by political parties as it suits them and that may change policies. BUT what BBR is doing is not simple protest.He is challenging the fabric of Indian society. To day it is corruption tomorrow it will be some self serving agenda. We are setting wrong precedent here and we will regret in long term.

How come nobody on BR can face the comment I made earlier ..........writing it 3rd time here
What if Harami Gilani does the same with the help of other parasites and do the bhukh hartal to take Kashmir to Bakistan?
What if Maoist dogs do the same ? Peacfull protest to change the govt ..........to the shining path.

Bringing back the the black money and giving Kashmir to Pak are same demands
To some later one is even more important. Just tell me how you will crush such a protest?

And guys nothing personal please.

Easy we kashmiri pandits/kashmiri sikhs will go on counter protest for GoI to remove article 370, attack porkistan and get back pork occupied kashmir

The trouble against BRD is that nobody is there to sit on protest against his demands, everybody agrees with him!

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 07 Jun 2011 05:59

The Shiv Sena on Monday said that though it disapproved of fast as a political weapon, yoga guru Baba Ramdev was a citizen of India and had every right to create a political space for himself.

India Today

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Jun 2011 06:53

Let's face it.AH and BR are not saints,their movements are totally political as they want to bring about political changetrough their fasts-just like MKG,but they must be honest about it and their followers should also display Gandhian virtues.Bogus Babas and 5* fakirs with suspect associates must expect only chicanery in like manner from the MMS led Congress, which is swift to bludgeon and tear-gas sleeping women and children ,while the White House's be-turbaned butler rushes on his master's order to make a "peace in his time" with terrorist Pak,giving away across the table what was won by the blood of our vailant jawans over decades.I only wish he was as swift in dealing with Paki terror as he has just done with BR's followers! His gameplan (you heard it first from moi) before he deserts the sinking SS Congress well in time,is aimed at being "kicked upstairs" and becoming the next (pliant) Pres. of India, so that he can enjoy his retirement and escape from impending political humiliation (like Karuna and the Left) and ruminate (apres moi le deluge) from his imperial perch upon his moumental lifetime achievement of establishing corruption in India on an "Imperial" scale!

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 07 Jun 2011 06:58

I think it's right time for Pranav Mukherjee to do a VP Singh and resign protesting. This will pave way for him to be PM supported by left, bjp and various janta parties. How come he is missing this golden oppurtunity?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 07 Jun 2011 07:00

Philip wrote:Let's face it.AH and BR are not saints,their movements are totally political as they want to bring about political changetrough their fasts-just like MKG,but they must be honest about it and their followers should also display Gandhian virtues.Bogus Babas and 5* fakirs with suspect associates must expect only chicanery in like manner from the MMS led Congress, which is swift to bludgeon and tear-gas sleeping women and children ,while the White House's be-turbaned butler rushes on his master's order to make a "peace in his time" with terrorist Pak,giving away across the table what was won by the blood of our vailant jawans over decades.I only wish he was as swift in dealing with Paki terror as he has just done with BR's followers! His gameplan (you heard it first from moi) before he deserts the sinking SS Congress well in time,is aimed at being "kicked upstairs" and becoming the next (pliant) Pres. of India, so that he can enjoy his retirement and escape from impending political humiliation (like Karuna and the Left) and ruminate (apres moi le deluge) from his imperial perch upon his moumental lifetime achievement of establishing corruption in India on an "Imperial" scale!

Welcome back Philip and that too in style and consistent.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 07 Jun 2011 07:10

Siddharth Varadarajan actually has a fairly good article on this: A weakness born of bad intent - http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/columns ... epage=true

While there is always room for legislative clarity in the definition of offences, the implementation of any new law will remain a prisoner to this lack of political will unless it allows for independent investigation and prosecution. A strong Lokpal Bill may help remedy the situation somewhat but only if the ability of the government to interfere with the investigation or punishment of well-connected individuals is ended. Here, it is instructive to see what happened in a recent case decided by the Lokayukta for the Delhi government, Justice Manmohan Sarin.

In the same week that the UPA government agreed to discuss the entire system of taxation, finance, administration and education in the country with Baba Ramdev, its stiffness of resolve in protecting a junior politician accused by the Lokayukta of abusing his authority seems to have passed almost unnoticed.

The case concerned a Delhi minister, Raj Kumar Chauhan, who sought to interfere with the tax inspectors even as they were conducting a raid at the premises of a private establishment. A complaint against the minister was filed by a senior IAS officer, Jalaj Shrivastava, who was a tax commissioner at the time. After conducting an inquiry, which included collecting testimony on oath from the officers concerned, Justice Sarin found that the minister had indeed abused his authority on behalf of a private party. But his recommendation that Mr. Chauhan be sacked and proceeded against was rejected by the President of India on the advice of the Union Ministry of Home Affairs. Evidently, the MHA found Mr. Chauhan's explanation — that the telephone call he placed during the raid was nothing other than the routine expression of concern for a constituent — to be more credible than the exertions of the Lokayukta or of the upright bureaucrats who put their future career prospects on the line by becoming whistle-blowers.

The protection afforded to the Delhi minister, who is fairly low down in the Congress party's food chain, shows the extent to which the “system” is programmed to circle its wagons at the first sign of trouble. Even if one dismisses this example because the Lokayukta is still a young institution, what explains the continuation of Vilasrao Deshmukh in the Union Cabinet despite the Supreme Court holding him guilty of abusing his authority when he was Chief Minister of Maharashtra? Mr. Deshmukh had intervened on behalf of a usurious moneylender against whom some peasants wished to file a police complaint. Instructions to go easy were phoned in to the police station concerned, which diligently made a record of the call in its daily log book. A system that is keen to stamp out the abuse of authority — which lies at the root of all corruption — would ask Mr. Deshmukh to leave the Cabinet now that his culpability has been confirmed by the highest court. But, alas, the UPA does not run such a system. Mr. Deshmukh got promoted to a more powerful ministry. And instructions have been sent out to all police stations in Maharashtra that they should no longer make a record of every phone call they receive from ministers.

madhu · Post by **madhu** » 07 Jun 2011 07:57

keep seeing kang gress will bring lokpal bill with lokpal having no powers against all MPs, MLAs. Tell people that it has kept promise. Enter into agreement with nations where black money is kept not to disclose anything before 2014 and sell to people that stringent action will be taken for anyone who opens account after 2014 in all these banks. Give IT rebates in last year of power, good sops in 2013/14 budget. We mango people will see gandhi in Sonia ji and rahul ji and vote for congress. At BR forum will be discussing whether EVM were tampered or not.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jun 2011 08:37

The UPA rein is like that of the third Caliph Othman. Do look it up.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 07 Jun 2011 08:41

Call it my gut-feeling or CT - all this natak is actually infighting in INC for the top most post = Prime Ministership onlee. Some one is trying hard to get MMS out. Anyways my prediction is MMS will not be PM again. He will retire and he will be treated like PVNR.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 07 Jun 2011 08:44

Man waves shoe at Cong leader, is beaten up by journalists & Digvijaya

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/man-w ... a/800247/0

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 07 Jun 2011 08:46

RSS chief: If Ramdev, Anna outsiders, what about the NAC?

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rss-c ... ac/800241/

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 07 Jun 2011 08:51

Second time as farce

Pratap Bhanu Mehta

Unfortunately, the crisis in the Congress is structural. Sonia Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi seem to be wilfully oblivious to the responsibilities that come with power; the prime minister thinks silence is a substitute for duty. Some of its smart ministers are too arrogantly clever by half to project any credibility. A large section of the party is too submissive to ask the nasty questions that should be asked of the leadership. And those who take up the cudgels of public argument have no sense of proportion or judgement about what to say, when. What is it about the Congress party that repeatedly produces an intellectual culture that turns intelligent people into self-destructive political animals? It has performed the miracle of turning a moment of great hope for India into a moment of political despair.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/secon ... e/800228/0

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 07 Jun 2011 09:12

Saffron robed saviour
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 40603.html

However much one may ignore the author's antipathy to the RSS, he does have a point when he says

For fighting corruption, as indeed crime or lawlessness, the constitutionally mandated body is the state and its organs. There can't be any short cuts here.

This work cannot, by any definition, be done by groups that aim to displace or bypass our constitutionally mandated system, defined by the elected legislature and the executive and judiciary it creates.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 07 Jun 2011 09:26

Sugriva,

the problem is the state and its organs are failing to curb the menace of corruption. It is the MMS govts utter and complete failure which is giving rise to these kinds of instincts.

When the stink of corruption of 2G corruption suffocated everybody and BJP was raising it in parliament, it was shouted down with congress brute majority. Then when BJP completely blocked the rest of the session, it even then didnt relent.

When congress started thinking that its parliamentary majority gave it the right to loot everyone and started to eat all state organs, by not allowing BJP to rise issues in parliament and the cause is right there.

Remember, when Germany offered to give the names of black money, congress refused and then when it was forced to accept the list by opposition parties, it is as of today not even giving out those names. When all countries were signing agreements with Swiss to get the names out, we are the ONLY country to sign an agreement that their names will NEVER be published. That is the "fight" which congress is fighting against black money. Let the congress give infinite excuses of "ho, it deals with foreign countries". Balls, the truth is they have done their best to cover up those names and the agreement with swiss and non-publishing of names even today is more than enough proof of where their sympathies lie.

So the BS about "state and organs" doing their job is better pedelled elsewhere as we all know the superhuman efforts of congress to suppress them.

Dont confuse the symptoms with the cause.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 07 Jun 2011 09:37

ravi_ku wrote:Sugriva,

the problem is the state and its organs are failing to curb the menace of corruption. It is the MMS govts utter and complete failure which is giving rise to these kinds of instincts.

When the stink of corruption of 2G corruption suffocated everybody and BJP was raising it in parliament, it was shouted down with congress brute majority. Then when BJP completely blocked the rest of the session, it even then didnt relent.

When congress started thinking that its parliamentary majority gave it the right to loot everyone and started to eat all state organs, by not allowing BJP to rise issues in parliament and the cause is right there.

Dont confuse the symptoms with the cause.

Situation has come in only after all methods have failed

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 07 Jun 2011 09:43

^^^^
Oh please.... If the BJP was so bothered about corruption then it should have gone back to the source of its legitimacy in Indian politics, the people who vote for it. I am all for the BJP and any other political party taking up the issue of corruption amongst the people. However I can't for one moment countenance self appointed and self important personages like AH and RD taking over the role of the opposition party. The middle classes' support to these two characters, as evidenced on this forum and elsewhere, is reflective of a particularly insular piskology that is looking for shortcuts in its path to political relevance. This is what, I believe, Manoj Joshi's argument is all about. If the middle class is interested in political power, and by jove it should be, it should enter the ring directly rather than use the charade of "civil society" to advance its agenda.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 07 Jun 2011 09:46

The complete lack of interest shown by Congress in using constitutional means when it comes to corruption, means that it is a survival issue for the party leadership. The corruption crisis started hogging the political limelight with the Bofors case, so there's been plenty of time to have fixed the problem. Effectively, all options including voting in the opposition (BJP) have been tried, but nothing has helped.

Don't know what alternative remains but to undertake wholesale changes to the blueprint i.e. Constitution. Perhaps allowing corruption convictions using juries (akin to public lynching) will take care of the minor corruption in government offices that affects everyday transactions.