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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 02:09
by A_Gupta
Nihat wrote:All this just does not makes sense to me anymore. If I were to put my self in the shoes of the TSPA COAS then it would make perfect sense to tell Haqqani's to back off for a while and also persuade the Afghan Taliban (using ISI contacts) to lay low and go slow on the IED's et all. Meanwhile continue back channel talk with the Americans and persuade them to leave Afghanistan ASAP while declaring some sort of victory in defeating the Taliban.
From the NYT article posted earlier:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/27/world ... icans.html
American officials familiar with Pakistan say that the attack fit a pattern. The Pakistanis often seemed to retaliate for losses they had suffered in an accidental attack by United States forces with a deliberate assault on American troops, most probably to maintain morale among their own troops or to make a point to the Americans that they could not be pushed around, said a former American military officer who served in both Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 02:43
by Dipanker
shravan wrote:Missile strike kills 5 in South Waziristan
WANA: Five people were killed and two wounded in a missile strike in South Waziristan tribal region on Tuesday.

According to sources, the missile targeted a house located in Warsak area of South Waziristan, killing people on the spot and leaving two others wounded.

The house was also completely destroyed in the attack. SAMAA

How does this work now? Isn't this an act of war?

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 03:04
by Prem
Whore Macchae Shore,Mil Gya Nya Amour
A clerical alliance in Pakistan has issued a religious decree (fatwa) saying that it is illegitimate (haram) to call the United States a "superpower" because "only Allah Almighty deserved the title." Decline-o-meter score: 4
The Sunni Ittehad Council may not carry the same weight as, say, Standard & Poor's when it comes to assessing American power, but it's still troubling that an alliance of generally moderate Sufi Barelvi leaders, who are often targeted for attacks by the Taliban, are calling for "jihad against the U.S., in defense of the homeland."
This, however, is telling:
The scholars called upon the [Pakistani] government to end the country’s role as front-line state in the so-called US war on terror and try to establish a new bloc comprising China, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan. They also urged the government to start preaching Jihad in the way of God with the armed forces making preparations to counter any foreign aggression. They urged all politicians to bring back their assets from abroad as well as returning bank loans got through political influence.
As RFE/RL's Gandhara' blog notes, the clerics "probably don't know that China is a majority non-Muslim country. They are also seemingly unaware that one of Beijing's major security nightmares is the rising appeal of jihad among its minority Turkic Uyghur Muslims."

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 03:08
by Prem
http://www.aei.org/article/104191
Is Pakistan Too Big to Fail?
( S. Dhume , Next Week)
Can Pakistan be weaned off its addiction to exporting violence? Unusually blunt comments to the U.S. Senate last week by U.S. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mike Mullen have spurred the latest round of soul-searching on this perennial question.
Adm. Mullen, long regarded as Pakistan's best friend in the Obama administration, accused Islamabad of using violent extremism as "an instrument of policy." He also blamed the Pakistani army's spy agency, Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), of directly supporting insurgents who killed 25 people in an audacious attack on the U.S. embassy and NATO headquarters in Kabul Sept. 13, and a truck bombing of a NATO outpost three days earlier that wounded 77 soldiers. "With ISI support, Haqqani operatives planned and conducted that truck bomb attack, as well as the assault on our embassy," he said.According to the admiral, the Haqqani network, a Pakistan-based militant group believed by U.S. authorities to be responsible for those high profile attacks as well as a string of others, "acts as a veritable arm of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency." This new and surprising frankness from Washington is an implicit warning to Islamabad that patience is running out.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 03:23
by Mahendra
A clerical alliance in Pakistan has issued a religious decree (fatwa) saying that it is illegitimate (haram) to call the United States a "superpower" because "only Allah Almighty deserved the title." Decline-o-meter score: 4
:rotfl:

Wonder what the comical alliance of sheikh chilli maulanas have to say about the soopah powah ambitions of more nourishing than melamine milk, sweeter than honey and hornier than lynn choos friend Cheena

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 03:54
by Prem
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2011_pg3_2
Poakers Remain Jokers
( Another POW,Showing gratitude Poak style)
The second night our train stopped at a rather deserted platform at Benaras Railway Station. Dim yellow bulbs stuck into typically ancient British lampposts were struggling to light up the long stony platform, albeit unsuccessfully. Their feeble light mixed gloom to a prevailing semi-darkness. It was nearly midnight. I was not sure what time it was as the platform clock was so blackened by years of steam engine soot and neglect that the dial and the hands had long become indistinct. Only a shard of the original glass was still stuck precariously in the clock frame. There were a few men who looked like Muslims standing motionless against the station wall. They were very quiet, and I must be imagining, very gloomy too. After a little while, they moved away rather dejectedly. Maybe I had a guilty conscience, or maybe I guessed right. Then also there was a tea vendor who was hawking his steamy brew as “Hindu tea, Muslim tea”. As he came closer my inquisitiveness overcame discretion and I asked him what was it about Hindu tea and Muslim tea? He was amazed but explained: Hindus do not take tea from a teacup used by somebody else so we serve them in earthen cups and then cast them away. The Muslims do not mind, therefore we serve them in glass cups and reuse after washing.I understood then why Pakistan had to be created even after a thousand years of futile attempts to live amicably with others. Islam in the Indian subcontinent seemed to have committed the ‘original sin’ of defying Hinduism’s great power of absorption of competing ideologies and therefore was unforgiven. An equally powerful religion like Buddhism had to seek exile after hundreds of years of efforts to coexist. Sikhism is a relatively younger religion and is still struggling against a merger. Other religions are no match to the inherent strength and ancientness of Hinduism.
By the evening, the first roll call was ordered in our barrack. It was a CRP Havaldar who was yelling around. Major Jaffar Khan (retired as Brigadier, is in Rawalpindi and an ardent polo player) was standing aloof not seeming to hear. The Havaldar howled again. Jaffar Khan refused, telling him firmly and properly, “I am an officer and will not fall in under your orders.” This was incendiary. The Havaldar took a step back, cocked his weapon, pointed at him and barked, “Move or I shoot you.” Jaffar Khan was completely unmoved. We shuffled to rush the Havaldar but Major Jaffar Khan stopped us and demanded of him to call an officer. He became the first Pakistani officer to be put in a solitary confinement cell for the next three months. I had the privilege of the company of this very remarkable officer for the next three years in captivity. Unfortunately, soon a bogey of war crimes trials of at least 1,500 (unnamed) officers was floated and never lifted till the repatriation. What the Indians gained from this bluff is not clear but it was so counterproductive as to have embedded hostility in the minds of most Pakistani officers in the camps and for a long time to come. Of these PoWs, some rose to three star rank in the army and Air Force later.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 03:54
by Cosmo_R
A_Gupta wrote:
Nihat wrote:All this just does not makes sense to me anymore. If I were to put my self in the shoes of the TSPA COAS then it would make perfect sense to tell Haqqani's to back off for a while and also persuade the Afghan Taliban (using ISI contacts) to lay low and go slow on the IED's et all. Meanwhile continue back channel talk with the Americans and persuade them to leave Afghanistan ASAP while declaring some sort of victory in defeating the Taliban.
From the NYT article posted earlier:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/27/world ... icans.html
American officials familiar with Pakistan say that the attack fit a pattern. The Pakistanis often seemed to retaliate for losses they had suffered in an accidental attack by United States forces with a deliberate assault on American troops, most probably to maintain morale among their own troops or to make a point to the Americans that they could not be pushed around, said a former American military officer who served in both Afghanistan and Pakistan.
And this pattern fits what Shiv said many moons ago: Tell a Paki (in caring way), "your collar is unbuttoned" and he'll 'befittingly' reply " Your fly is undone" even without looking.

An extension of this is "strategic defiance" (Aslam Beg) and more recently motormama Khar: "You need us more more than we need you."

I suppose this is all part of 'Ghairat' aka 'honor and dignity'

Pakistan is a fundus telling the rest of the body: I'm going to clam up...:)

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 04:08
by jrjrao
Bruce Reidel:

Why Pakistan Is Getting Cocky
Pakistan’s Army and intelligence service are behaving ever more provocatively—with potentially drastic ramifications for the war in Afghanistan.

Why are the ISI and the Pakistani Army making such risky moves? What is the calculation in the generals’ minds? Short answer is, they believe we are on the run in Afghanistan and they want to push us out faster.

The Army leadership ... feels it can weather any blowback from Washington. The generals assume U.S. military aid will be cut or eliminated by Congress sooner rather than later, and they are confident that the Saudis and Chinese will fill the gap. They also know NATO’s logistical supply line to Kabul runs through Karachi (more than half of everything NATO eats, drinks, and shoots arrives via Karachi despite intense efforts to find alternatives). They have leverage and they know it. And of course, they have the fastest-growing nuclear arsenal in the world with a developing tactical nuclear capability. They feel they hold a lot of aces, maybe more than they should. Cocky poker players are dangerous.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 04:22
by Suppiah
The crude and almost whorish wooing of PRC must be causing a lot of throwing up and postponed lunches in Beijing...after all who wants to get close to this scum? All the Pakis manage to accomplish is to get some Stalinist rapist goon puppets in India to rush to their defence, writing articles spinning strange conspiracy theories..to rescue taller mountain's favorite whore TSPA/ISI from its troubles.

In the meantime, coverage in US/Western media which went from suspicion to almost-sure after the OBL incident, now is positively, unabashedly hostile. Pakbaric sewer rats chances of joining the ranks of civilised societies if it ever existed, is now ZILCH. All they are left with is PRc and its loyal foot soldiers in India.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 04:46
by Cosmo_R
Prem wrote:http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2011_pg3_2
understood then why Pakistan had to be created even after a thousand years of futile attempts to live amicably with others. Islam in the Indian subcontinent seemed to have committed the ‘original sin’ of defying Hinduism’s great power of absorption of competing ideologies and therefore was unforgiven.An equally powerful religion like Buddhism had to seek exile after hundreds of years of efforts to coexist. Sikhism is a relatively younger religion and is still struggling against a merger. Other religions are no match to the inherent strength and ancientness of Hinduism.
This is too funny. So:

1. Pakistan was created for the sake of reusable teacups. Very green stuff :)
2. Islam amicably (and with great sensitivity) deconstructed temples in an effort to co-exist and these efforts were rebuffed. Idol minds are the the Shaitan's handiwork
3. Notwithstanding, Islam further attempted to co-exist by blowing up Bamiyan Buddhas and killing Sikhs, Christians and Hindus in Pakistan for which such efforts they have not gotten their due.

Exile they have achieved in Pakistan. Wallow in the green muck you've extruded.

This guy is a poisoned mind and now writes to expiate the genocidal sins in which he was complicit.

But he is not alone today. Ideological and biological inbreeding have positioned his spawn to reach the rank of Brigadier and they will have the power to launch tactical nukes when they get the 'Fon' call.

Humanity needs to excise this carbuncle called Pakistan. Its poison can only spread.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 04:58
by ramana
Reggie noticed that Mullen used a twist of words "violent extremism" which allows TSP to escape being designated as FTO:
The United States Department of State lists a set of three criteria for designating an entity as a FTO. Admn. Mullen, while describing the Haqqani Network as a "veritable arm" of the ISI, used the expression "violent extremism," and NOT "terrorism," as a sleight of words to provide Pakistan plausible deniability and full and complete protection from being designated a FTO. Some very smart legal eagle GOTUS brain came up with Mullen's phrase of "violent extremism."

The definition of the phrase "violent extremism" does not meet the Legal Criteria no. 2 that sates "The organization must engage in terrorist activity, as defined in section 212 (a)(3)(B) of the INA (8 U.S.C. § 1182(a)(3)(B)),* or terrorism, as defined in section 140(d)(2) of the Foreign Relations Authorization Act, Fiscal Years 1988 and 1989 (22 U.S.C. § 2656f(d)(2)),** or retain the capability and intent to engage in terrorist activity or terrorism. "

Voilà , Pakistan did NOT commit "terrorism" when it helped kill American troops. CH's, Curtis's et al articles are all farce! In a few days time, expect a glib State Dept. spokespreson take pains to parse "violent extremism" as meaning different from to "engage in terrorist activity" as a rationale to protect Pakistan. Case shut, Pakistan continues as our important non-nato ally. Murderous Pakistani army once again goes scot free, protected and shielded by the GOTUS. As I had said earlier, Pakistan is untouchable. Slap me silly!

Legal Criteria for Designation under Section 219 of the INA as amended

1. It must be a foreign organization.
2. The organization must engage in terrorist activity, as defined in section 212 (a)(3)(B) of the INA (8 U.S.C. § 1182(a)(3)(B)),* or terrorism, as defined in section 140(d)(2) of the Foreign Relations Authorization Act, Fiscal Years 1988 and 1989 (22 U.S.C. § 2656f(d)(2)),** or retain the capability and intent to engage in terrorist activity or terrorism.
3. The organization’s terrorist activity or terrorism must threaten the security of U.S. nationals or the national security (national defense, foreign relations, or the economic interests) of the United States.

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/other/des/123085.htm
So all this could be a charade or nautanki to make TSPA appear to have stood up against Great $atan!

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 05:03
by Cosmo_R
jrjrao wrote:Bruce Reidel
"They also know NATO’s logistical supply line to Kabul runs through Karachi (more than half of everything NATO eats, drinks, and shoots arrives via Karachi despite intense efforts to find alternatives). They have leverage and they know it. And of course, they have the fastest-growing nuclear arsenal in the world with a developing tactical nuclear capability. "

This dependence goes away if Pakistan is the target. CVNs, LPDs, SSGNs and Gwadar in Free Balochistan do away with the need for union stevedores in Karachi.

The pincer comes from Afghanistan via the NDN.

All that Mullen did is admit he wuz fooled and unwittingly (what wit?) super sized the Paki problem after the post 9/11 threat to vitrify Pakistan.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 05:12
by Cosmo_R
@Ramana^^^: " So all this could be a charade or nautanki to make TSPA appear to have stood up against Great $atan!"

I do not think so. It is a calibrated escalation threatening to let the New York case against the ISI proceed unhindered, designating this 'entity' as as an FTO and finally the state itself.

What GOTUS has not factored in is the delusional Paki strategic defiance response. Faisal 2.0 or another 'Haqqani' attack on US interests in Afghanistan.

The escalation ladder is going to reach the roof very quickly.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 05:30
by paramu
)Rational
September 27th, 2011
9:15 am

I think we screwed up with both Afghanistan and Pakistan back in the 80s when we turned the Soviet war in Afghanistan into their Vietnam, but let the Pakistanis take credit for it. They learned they could screw us over with impunity, and the Afghanis thought when we came in after the fact and took credit for everything that we were full of it. Funneling the weapons through Pakistan was probably a necessity, but we should have figured out a way to let the Afghan people know where they came from. Then MAYBE they wouldn’t be using those same weapons against us now. Just my thoughts on the matter. Oh, and as far as Pakistan goes, we could just cut off their aide, and let India know we won’t stand in the way if they get expansionist ideas.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 05:37
by Altair
I was talking to an NGO guy working for Balochis, and Chinese talk came up. This fellow had considerable experience in China and their activities inside Arunachal Pradesh and Assam. He mentioned that China does not need Pakistan for any reason whatsoever to screw India. China had more sympathizers inside India than Pakistan can ever dream of.
A couple of terrorist attacks on India in a calender year is not going to slow Indian development by any stretch and the Chinese know it. He mentioned however that Chinese are in Pakistan for only putting an end to Unkils influence on Af-Pak and they are succeeding. Chinese always have had a plan for the Americans in the subcontinent. It was the Americans who never got the message.
It all makes sense to me now. After the phone call to stop the truck bombing, I am willing to bet, Chinese gave a go ahead to Pakis. I dont think this is about Haqqanis at all. This is Chinese kicking the American ass out of South Asia. This whole thing was a setup.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 05:41
by shiv
kasthuri wrote:
Fundamental lies exposed in splintering U.S.-Pakistan alliance

Commentary: Lara Logan is chief foreign correspondent for CBS News.

The U.S. relationship with Pakistan is unraveling.

This began when Osama bin Laden took a Navy SEAL bullet to his chest and then his head.

In that moment, the lie that has defined this relationship was exposed. And it became a matter of time before this relationship had to be redefined.

The unraveling is a slow and fascinating descent. The truth lies somewhere at the bottom of a very black pool thick with the blood of American soldiers.

Finally, when it is all exposed and there is no more pretense, we might be able to honor those who have died in Afghanistan. Until that point, their deaths are a stain on our national pride and everything that America is supposed to represent.

Because we sent our own into harm's way in Afghanistan, without telling them or the country that it was an impossible fight.

And it is not impossible because there is no way to defeat the enemy. It is impossible for two simple reasons. First, the enemy is inside Pakistan, not Afghanistan; Second, only one side is fighting a war -- and it's not us.

Somewhere along the way we stopped believing it was possible to defeat the Taliban and its allies because we found ourselves trapped in a war with no end, where we could not rely on our allies and all that blood and treasure seemed to be squandered for no reason.

The truth is it became impossible to defeat the Taliban because of a political decision - and agreement with Pakistan - not to target the enemy leadership and fighters once they crossed the Afghan border into Pakistan. Not because they are so powerful or popular or important to Afghanistan. But because they are protected by a supposed U.S. ally, Pakistan, who offered to help us defeat al Qaeda instead, and by a terrible U.S. political miscalculation, probably based in arrogance - and ignorance.

The truth is also that the U.S. and NATO stopped fighting a war in Afghanistan the moment Kabul fell and Osama bin Laden was able to escape Tora Bora and slip across the border to safety inside Pakistan. The U.S. stopped fighting a war and instead came up with another name - "counter-insurgency." That was just another politically-motivated excuse not to face reality or make the tough decisions that needed to be made.

There was no such self-deception on the other side. The Taliban and its allies were very clear on where they stood: They were at war, fighting to regain control of their country and defeat then U.S. anywhere and everywhere they could be reached.

While we pretended that building schools and roads was the answer and the path to peace and a better future for all in Afghanistan, our enemies were training and recruiting and perfecting their tactics and performance on the battlefield.

While we were lying to ourselves and calling this fight a counter-insurgency, the Taliban were rallying their supporters and troops with a call to arms, a fight to the death, a war with America.

When you can send 10 or 15 or even 30 suicide bombers into a battle with the U.S. or an attack on an American base -- as the Taliban have repeatedly -- those fighters are not poor men looking to make a quick buck.

Do not accept that there is no way to counter U.S. enemies like the Haqqani network, which has come to attention since the recent attack on the U.S. embassy in Kabul.

Cell phones link Pakistan to U.S. embassy attack

There is a way and it is very simple. The Haqqani network does not exist without the Haqqanis.

Your "partners" in the Pakistani military, your "allies" in the Pakistani security establishment know where they are on a daily, if not hourly basis.

There is no "Haqqani network" without the Haqqanis.

When you can rally dozens of troops to set off into the most unforgiving mountains in the middle of winter, to lay in wait in the freezing cold, without the comfort of a warm fire and hot food and lie in wait for an attack on a remote American outpost, just so you can have the greatest degree of surprise and chance of success, then you are not dealing with men who are frustrated with government corruption and are just looking to make some money.

You are in the midst of a serious, full-blown war and to have any chance of defeating your enemy, at the very least you have to recognize that you are not in a campaign-style battle for the support of the population. You are, in fact, in the midst of a full-blown all-out war that you cannot afford to lose.

You have not won. You are not yet safe. You have not sent a message to the world that you will not be attacked in the way America was attacked on 9/11. You have not convinced people across the globe that you are serious, that you will not tolerate any incursion or loss of life on your soil, no matter what. You have not said to the world in no uncertain terms that you will prevail no matter what.

Instead, you have lied to yourself. You have changed the name of "war" to counter-insurgency even when the very definition of the terms denies the simple facts - that the Taliban is not an "insurgent" group trying to overthrown a legitimate government. That they were the government when the U.S. got involved and they are now fighting a war to regain the power they lost to their enemies, because of the U.S. bombing campaign in 2001.

If this sounds like a call to arms, it is not.

It is simply a statement of truth. All it what it is. If you are not prepared to fight a war, do not send your troops to war.

If you are not prepared to kill your enemy where they stand, in Afghanistan or Pakistan, by whatever means possible, then do not lie to your troops and your nation and pretend you are at war.

Do not lie to the Afghan people and pretend you are there for them.

Get out. Go home.

And live with the consequences
Nonsense. America can take out Pakistan in a trice if it wanted to do that. These things are all carefully gamed out in he highest think tanks of America. America did not become a multi trillion dollar economy and defeat the Soviet Union by showing wimp like behavior. If you even begun to undrstand what the US does your mind would be boggled. In one step they have Iran, the CAR, Pakistan and India in control. Osama was a minor diversion. When they needed to get him they got him. Watch while Pakistan comes down to its knees and begs America in the next few days.

PS: I have inherited the ownership rights to the jewels in that temple in Kerala but need a partner for access to them. Please email me on [email protected]

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 05:46
by paramu

In 1947, as soon as Pakistan was born, in operation
'Gulmarg', the Pakistani Punjabi Army Generals trained the tribal, &
local militia from the North West Frontier Province (NWFP) and the
Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) and sent them to attack an
unprepared Kashmir. They occupied a big chunk of it and it still remains
occupied by Pakistan.

The objective was to capture Kashmir
with its principal city Srinagar. Maj Gen Akbar Khan was made commander.
Deputy commissioners & political agents, invited each tribe in NWFP
& FATA to form 'lashkars' of thousand men each for invading Jammu
& Kashmir for plunder.

The lashkars were formed at Bannu,
Wana, Thal, Kohat, Peshawar and Nowshera. They were trained and armed by
the local Brigade commanders from the Army stocks. Two regular army
officers, and some solders disguised as tribal, were provided to each
lashkar. The lashkars were to assemble at a segregated area near the now
infamous Abbottabad where they were to be briefed and dispersed for the
various missions.

Also, since the beginning (1947), the
Pashtun in Afghanistan & Pakistan disregarded the artificial &
whimsical British Durand line that divided the Pashtun. They wanted and
still want an independent Pashtunistan.

In future, if the
British mistakes were corrected and the three independent nations,
Pashtunistan, Baluchistan and Sindh were created, most of the problems
will dissolve and the region, devoid of the Punjabi manipulations &
exploitations, will be peaceful & will flourish.

Throughout
1950s and early 60s, Pakistani Punjabi Army constantly fought with the
Pashtun using American weapons under the pretext of fighting Communism.
US was not pleased because the Pashtun asked for Soviet help. The
American press blamed Pakistan for driving Afghanistan into the Soviet
camp.

In 1950s, the foxy Pakistan Punjabi Army supported &
armed the non-Pashtun in Afghanistan/Pakistan to fight the Pashtun.
With the rise of Taliban (mainly Pashtun) movement, the Pakistani
Punjabi Army shifted it's support to the Pashtun dominated Taliban. The
Pakistani Punjabi Generals use the brave Pashtun as cannon-fodder, as
insignificant people who can be sacrificed for the goals & good of
the Punjabi.
So, it's time to expose the Pakistani Army/ISI propaganda that blames others.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 05:55
by arnab
I think now the US should stop naming their CVNs after Ronald Regan and George Bush Jr (when it comes) and instead rename a couple of their military cemetaries with those names. That will complete a set of symbolic but useless steps.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 05:56
by shiv
Altair wrote:I was talking to an NGO guy working for Balochis, and Chinese talk came up. This fellow had considerable experience in China and their activities inside Arunachal Pradesh and Assam. He mentioned that China does not need Pakistan for any reason whatsoever to screw India. China had more sympathizers inside India than Pakistan can ever dream of.
A couple of terrorist attacks on India in a calender year is not going to slow Indian development by any stretch and the Chinese know it. He mentioned however that Chinese are in Pakistan for only putting an end to Unkils influence on Af-Pak and they are succeeding. Chinese always have had a plan for the Americans in the subcontinent. It was the Americans who never got the message.
It all makes sense to me now. After the phone call to stop the truck bombing, I am willing to bet, Chinese gave a go ahead to Pakis. I dont think this is about Haqqanis at all. This is Chinese kicking the American ass out of South Asia. This whole thing was a setup.
Altair I have one serious objection to your post. We have spent a decade trying to delude everyone on here that Pakistan is completely under unkils control. Now that this has been proven to be bullshit, please don't start off another lie hat Pakistan is now under Chinese control. It is not and it will not be under Chinese control. This phone call from China is basically pure fiction simply because Pakistan has not even been able to deliver simple security to Chinese workers in Baluchistan.

It was American stupidity to believe that Pakistan would deliver things to them in exchange for funds and arms. The Chinese cannot be expected to be equally stupid and pay Pakistan for what Pakistan cannot deliver. Pakistan is a dangerous out of control place. Imagining that someone holds the reins and can control it is a mistake we have made all these years simply out of an itense need to go rah rah America and think that the problem would be solved by unkil who we said would solve any problem because no one becomes that great without solving all problems. Every bit of information suggests that Pakistan is pretty much out of control. There will be no Chinese control. We should not be staring either a rah rah China or a shiver-shiver China now but start looking at hard reality.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 06:10
by shivajisisodia
^^^^^^

Sir, Paki was never under US control, you were right about that. Paki was merely playing the US, because US was stupid in this case, even behaved like a congenital idiot.

But you are not right about PAki and the Chinese. Paki is pretty much under a pretty tight Chinese leash at the moment, because they truly are soulmates. Paki has this visceral hatred towards India and defines its identity as "not India". The Chinese too have a visceral dislike for the Indians, because in addition to the obvious that they are competitors, culturally, Chinese and Indians are temperamentally quite the opposite. The Chinese are more low key, conformists, quietly devious, scheming and understated, while the Indians are loud mouths, boisterous, argumentative, disorderly, totally devoid of any long term and strategic thinking, self goal scoreres, quarrelsome and braggarts. So, the Chinese and Pakis are soulmates and the submissive side of Paki does'nt mind being a poodle for the Chinese.

In the long run, however, after the Islamists succeed in Islamizing India, China is their next big target. Once they have Islamized China too, then the West will almost automatically implode and fall to the Islamists, in the face of sheer number of Islamists in the world, which by then would include all of India, China and all the rest of the non-Western world. In the long run, therefore, the Islamists led by their forward force, the Pakis, will not spare the Chinese any more than they did the Hindus, and yeah, in that sense they have no enduring love for the Chinese either.

I personally cannot decide which prospect is worse. The aftermath of the whole world going Islamic or the aftermath of a nuclear holocaust on earth.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 06:13
by Shankas
I see this playing out as follows...
1) The Paki's will use tactical brilliance and cause US casualties in Afghanistan
2) US declares it an act of war
3) It starts mobilizing at the Afghan border
4) India mobilizes its troops stating precaution
5) US enters and frees Baluchistan (it is sparsely populated and similar to Iraq)
6) US has its supply route to Afghanistan
7) US controls Gawdar

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 06:16
by Anantha
Shiv, Altair
Agreeing to both of you can one say this then?
Alqeeda, Haqani etc are Chinese proxies floated via Paki Army
Uighuribans, LeT are US proxies floated/sponsored by Khan saab (against China/India)
TS army takes money from China and Unkil to do supari work

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 06:28
by arun
The Wall Street Journal article titled “How Pakistan Lost Its Top U.S. Friend” where the outgoing U.S. Joint Chiefs Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen explains his “Shift From Confidence in Islamabad to Tougher Tone”:

How Pakistan Lost Its Top U.S. Friend: Outgoing U.S. Joint Chiefs Chairman Explains Shift From Confidence in Islamabad to Tougher Tone

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 06:35
by Rangudu
Al Qaeda is a Chinese proxy via TSP? What next - Obama is a secret Chinese agent whose real name is Obi van Mao? This is Analysis Paralysis.

The world is too complicated for these simplistic reductionist theories.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 06:41
by Theo_Fidel
The Paki's are being tactically brilliant as usual. A destabilized Afghanistan will turn on them first and consume TSP border lands and Pakjab eventually.

The best situation for India is a destabilized Afghanistan with TSP focused more and more on its Western borders.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 06:44
by arun
arun wrote:In the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Mohammadden clerics of the Barelvi School of the Sunni Mohammaddenism who have been touted in the recent past as being less fanatical than their counterparts of the Deobandi School of the Sunni sect, declare Jihad on the US:

Fatwa for Jihad against America
The US media picks up the story of the declaration of Jihad targetting the US by Mohammadden Clerics of the Sunni sect and Barelvi School. Mohammadden Sunni Barelvi's represent the religious affiliation of the majority of the population of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Fox News:

Pakistani Threat Escalates as Imams Call for Jihad

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 07:14
by Airavat
Mullen's transformation
He was disappointed when a major Pakistani offensive planned against Haqqani fighters in key tribal areas didn't happen, and a string of attacks by the militant group in recent weeks forced Adm. Mullen to drop his practice of refraining from public criticism of Pakistan. Even now, though, he stressed that while Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency has provided strategic support to the Haqqanis, they don't necessarily control the details of the militant group's operations. "It is very clear they have supported them," Adm. Mullen said. "I don't think the Haqqanis can be turned on and off like a light switch. But there are steps that could be taken to impact the Haqqanis over time."

In Pakistan, Adm. Mullen was often praised for what was seen as his willingness to listen to Pakistan's concerns, and his efforts to address them. But the Pakistani view of Adm. Mullen has dimmed somewhat, particularly after last week's remarks.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 07:22
by shiv
Let me ask a completely hypothetical and rhetorical question here. Imagine that your father (or brother or son if you like) who means a great deal to you is running a business in India that runs afoul of American laws. Your family member is in India hiding from the Americans. He is your flesh and blood and you love him dearly. And you make sure that whatever his actions are, they are not illegal in India and that it is the Americans who want his blood. You ensure that he is hidden away safely and that he gets food and shelter and whatever else he needs to conduct his business.

If the Americans come knocking on your door and ask you to deliver your brother/father/son how readily would you do that?

The situation of multiple Lashkars and tanzeems in Pakistan is an extension of family bonds. Those guys are breaking no laws in Pakistan because Pakistan has no laws other than family bonds and Islam. It is the "International community" led by the post war powers that gave "nationhood" to Pakistan and told Pakis "OK you guys you now have "sovereignty" to be separate from India. And here are money and arms to keep your "sovereignty"

That "sovereignty" is now being violated by the US. The US is asking for breaking of family bonds in Pakistan after egging the Pakis to use those family bonds to fight the Soviets and India also if need be. We must not let our hatred fro Pakis make us lie to ourselves. The Pakis are right in a sense even as they do wrong. They are not going to hand over family to the US even if that family have broken US laws. Believe it or not.

We have lived a double lie on BRF for a decade and our ability to see things is clouded by the double lie. The first lie is that "Pakis are weak and wrong". The second lie is that the US is so strong that its strength makes its own laws. The US is always right. Supreme power is a law of its own.

There is an additional layer of complexity here. Pakistan has voluntarily allowed its sovereignty to be violated by the US. But Pakistan has to a great extent controlled the extent of penetration of American penis into Pakistani backside. It was America and its rahrahs who deluded themselves that everything was under control and that the Pakis would sell their soul for the money. The fact that Pakistan was deluding America was clear to Indians. India and even BRF was pointing that out. It was the US, that held the view that Pakistanis were an honest bunch who would deliver what they were paid for. The fact that this was clearly not happening was evident to everyone except the US policymakers and rahrahs. The US was too powerful to fail according to the narrative that has been pushed in the US.

Pah! I love the clever statements and rhetoric that comes out of every cock-up. Having control of the media also means that one can delude oneself.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 07:29
by arun
The Government of the United States commences a circumspect back pedalling move to disown the stinging criticism of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan by its very own Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Mike Mullen.

The reflexive US instinct to mollycoddle their Major Non NATO Ally it appears is simply too strong :lol: :
Adm. Mike Mullen’s assertion last week that an anti-American insurgent group in Afghanistan is a “veritable arm” of Pakistan’s spy service was overstated and contributed to overheated reactions in Pakistan and misperceptions in Washington, according to American officials involved in U.S. policy in the region.

The internal criticism by the officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they did not want to challenge Mullen openly, reflects concern over the accuracy of Mullen’s characterizations at a time when Obama administration officials have been frustrated in their efforts to persuade Pakistan to break its ties to Afghan insurgent groups.
Mullen’s language “overstates the case,” said a senior Pentagon official with access to classified intelligence files on Pakistan, because there is scant evidence of direction or control. If anything, the official said, the intelligence indicates that Pakistan treads a delicate if duplicitous line, providing support to insurgent groups including the Haqqani network but avoiding actions that would provoke a U.S. response.

“The Pakistani government has been dealing with Haqqani for a long time and still sees strategic value in guiding Haqqani and using them for their purposes,” the Pentagon official said. But “it’s not in their interest to inflame us in a way that an attack on a [U.S.] compound would do.”
From the Washington Post:

Clicky

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 07:36
by shiv
Anantha wrote:Shiv, Altair
Agreeing to both of you can one say this then?
Alqeeda, Haqani etc are Chinese proxies floated via Paki Army
Uighuribans, LeT are US proxies floated/sponsored by Khan saab (against China/India)
TS army takes money from China and Unkil to do supari work
Anantha please put on your thinking cap. You have the facts but you are reaching conclusions that cannot be reached on the basis of available facts. It is OK to concoct any possible story, but first ask what is the available evidence that Al Qaeda and Hackany are Chinese sponsored? This is a concoction.

What are Uighurbans? The word is a concoction.

OK the TSP army takes money to do supari work. But they are not doing the supari work that they have been asked to do.

There is another worse conclusion that we do not want to reach in our rahrah Amerca mindset. The original 1950s promise of engagement between USA and Pakistan was an "alliance". In an alliance Pakistan helps the US in its wars and the US helps Pakistan for it wars. Pakistan was stupid enough and weak enough to involve itself deeply in fighting the Soviets without getting commitment from the USA that the US would hand Kashmir to Pakistan. But the US is hiding a dark secret and that dark secret is that the US has indirectly or directly supported Pakistan's war against India. But the USSR was defeated with Pakistani help. India has not been defeated by US help. In a sense the US side of the bargain has not been fulfilled.

If such an agreement existed officially or unoficially who is right? The US or Pakistan?

Now guess how much help the US can hope to get from India and guess how Pakistan will view any help that the US gets from India? The US has painted itself into a corner. So has Pakistan for that matter. That is why the US will try and push a face saving "Kashmir solution" to satisfy the Pakistanis. The US will try and punish India if India does not cooperate. But the US cannot go very far because India has played its cards knowing that the US becomes weaker as long as India keeps talking to Pakistan and engaging in a love fest. Everyone is taking punishment here, but basically India needs to escape with the least punishment, no matter how much others screw themselves.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 07:42
by Kanson
Altair wrote:I was talking to an NGO guy working for Balochis, and Chinese talk came up. This fellow had considerable experience in China and their activities inside Arunachal Pradesh and Assam. He mentioned that China does not need Pakistan for any reason whatsoever to screw India. China had more sympathizers inside India than Pakistan can ever dream of.
A couple of terrorist attacks on India in a calender year is not going to slow Indian development by any stretch and the Chinese know it. He mentioned however that Chinese are in Pakistan for only putting an end to Unkils influence on Af-Pak and they are succeeding. Chinese always have had a plan for the Americans in the subcontinent. It was the Americans who never got the message.
It all makes sense to me now. After the phone call to stop the truck bombing, I am willing to bet, Chinese gave a go ahead to Pakis. I dont think this is about Haqqanis at all. This is Chinese kicking the American ass out of South Asia. This whole thing was a setup.
Well it is possible, considering Kayani's public statement that Americans/Mullen were informed on countries supporting Haqqanis. Maybe Americans believed all along such lies from Pak. But the current incident most probably exposed with abundant proof on Pak/ISI involvement.

Intially I thought he is referring to Iran.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 08:08
by Dipanker
arun wrote:The Government of the United States commences a circumspect back pedalling move to disown the stinging criticism of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan by its very own Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Mike Mullen.

The reflexive US instinct to mollycoddle their Major Non NATO Ally it appears is simply too strong :lol: :
Adm. Mike Mullen’s assertion last week that an anti-American insurgent group in Afghanistan is a “veritable arm” of Pakistan’s spy service was overstated and contributed to overheated reactions in Pakistan and misperceptions in Washington, according to American officials involved in U.S. policy in the region.

From the Washington Post:

Clicky
Amazing! Paki still has sympathizers left in US establishment. When are these idiots going to learn.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 08:22
by Rudradev
Dipanker wrote:
Adm. Mike Mullen’s assertion last week that an anti-American insurgent group in Afghanistan is a “veritable arm” of Pakistan’s spy service was overstated and contributed to overheated reactions in Pakistan and misperceptions in Washington, according to American officials involved in U.S. policy in the region.

From the Washington Post:

Clicky
[

Amazing! Paki still has sympathizers left in US establishment. When are these idiots going to learn.
There is nothing to "learn"... they already know that they can't do a thing about Pakistan.

What we are seeing now is the magnificent sight of the almighty United States downhill skiing. The 50-imam call for jihad has scared the daylights out of them. And while America's downhill skiing may take place on the luxurious slopes of Aspen rather than the rugged terrain of Tiger Hill... it is still aimed downhill.

So we have the unnamed Pentagon official saying "Hem... haw... the CJCS, despite being Pakistan's best friend, overstated the anti-Pakistan case... no way they would have inflamed us by attacking our embassy." This, when there are CELL PHONE records proving that ISI handlers guided the embassy attackers every step of the way, just as with Colonel Sahib in the Mumbai attacks.

We have the State Dept spokesman saying..."er, I'm afraid, er, I've seen some news reports that Pakistan Army has refused to go after the Haqqanis but we haven't heard it from the Pakistan govt." This, when the announcement was made by a Pakistan military spokesman directly after the Corpse Commandos' meeting in Islamabad!

The US has no b@lls. The US can do nothing about Pakistan. EVEN Mullen, in his moment of honesty, still kept the whole truth from the US Congress. Even Mullen spoke of "violent extremism" rather than "terrorism". Even Mullen said something about "Pakistan provides strategic support but cannot switch them on and off like a light." That was a lie... if the ISI directs a Haqqani attack on the US Embassy by cell phone, issuing tactical orders at every stage, the Pakistanis have far MORE control over the Haqqanis than a light switch gives you over a lightbulb.

The US could do nothing even when it discovered that OBL had been hiding in Abbotabad for years, nothing more than kill a useless old Arab and frighten his family. They could do NOTHING to the Pakis, so they let the fiction persist that "mayyyybe the ISI didn't know anything about Osama being there." The US has already lost in AfPak, and the only sensible thing for them to do is bite the bullet... swallow the last and largest H&D insult, and undertake the long, long downhill ski back home.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 08:23
by Anujan
By the evening, the first roll call was ordered in our barrack. It was a CRP Havaldar who was yelling around. Major Jaffar Khan (retired as Brigadier, is in Rawalpindi and an ardent polo player) was standing aloof not seeming to hear. The Havaldar howled again. Jaffar Khan refused, telling him firmly and properly, “I am an officer and will not fall in under your orders.”
Glad to see that the brave Major had his honor intact even after getting his musharraf roundly kicked in battle and surrendering.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 08:31
by shiv
Additional thoughts. The LeT and people like Fai were allowed to operate by the US without applying pressure on Pakistan. We told ourselves that this is to "control India" or that "The US is not bothered about India". The truth is that their survival was the quid pro quo, the "you scratch my back, I scratch your back" agreement between the US and Pakistan where Pakistan would use proxies to fight the USSR and India. The proxies would achieve the job to benefit both the US and Pakistan.

It turned out that the proxies actually won in Afghanistan, but failed in Kashmir.

Why? Probably because the Soviets were fighting in a foreign land. Indians were defending their own land even if traitorous Pak friendly kashmiris were making it difficult.

In addition, the USA had no agreement with Pakistan on what the proxies would do if they won. Pakistan, which wanted to continue the war in Kashmir had no incentive to wind up the jihad brigdes. Those proxies had indirect support from the USA (support given via Pakistan). After the US left those proxies were no longer getting the goodies like they used to from Pakistan ans they became autonomous. But even those part autonomous proxies were used against India and defeated by India in Kashmir. But they also spread out to other lands and started attackingthe kafir west. The genie went out of the bottle once that happened.

The US returned to Pakistan in 2001 to ask Pakistaan to do exactly the opposite of what had been encouraged a decade earlier. Up to 1990 the Pakistan army was paid to encourage proxies that were doing the job for both Pakistan and America. After 2001 the US wanted Pakistan to crack down on the anti-US proxies. The US did not care or bother about any proxies that Pakistan was using against India. Hence LeT was untouched, as was Jamaat ud Dawa as were people like Ghulam Nabi Fai whose activities were well known to the US.

The US assumed that the Pakistan army was pure whore and that the whore would do exactly anything. But Paki army is a whore with self interest and family interest. The US did not count on that. The US continued to give robust support to the Pakistani army against India while imagining that the war with India could go on while the anti-US proxies would be mopped up. The US did not count on the fact that the proxies and the Pak army would have common cause and common bonds.

The US is on a losing wicket here. US aid to the Pakistani army must end. The Pakistan army must get weaker.As it gets weaker US interests will be attacked even more, but the US will never win by arming and supporting the Paki army because the Paki army gets stronger against the US by using US aid. That army IS NOT TAKING DICTATION FROM THE USA as the rahrahs would have us believe

And let me ask this question for the ten thousandth time? So what if he Taliban take over Pakistan? If the US aids them then India will be no worse off than facing the Paki army with US aid. If the US does not aid the Taliban then they will get weaker. We should not fall for US rhetoric and say Taliban is worse than Paki army. It int. Paki army with US aid is bad enough or worse. US aid must stop.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 08:32
by Prem
Doosra Baap /Tere sukh abb Mere, mere Dukh abb tere. Bank account abb kar de naam sarre mere

Pakistan’s China Syndrome
the height of Pakistan’s crisis in relations with the United States, Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani reminded his Chinese guest of the words he had used to describe its relationship with China. ”Pak-China friendship is higher than mountains, deeper than oceans, stronger than steel and sweeter than honey.” In a press release issued by the prime minister’s office during a visit to Islamabad by Chinese Public Security Minister Meng Jianzhu, Gilani also promised China that “‘your friends are our friends, your enemies are our enemies and your security is our security.”( Pokers putting hand in Hu's pocket)
It was language designed to show that even after Admiral Mike Mullen’s assertion that the Afghan militant Haqqani network was effectively a proxy of the Pakistan army, China – Pakistan’s “all weather friend” – stood at its side. The Pakistan media enthusiastically played up Meng’s visit, jumping on a relatively small offer of financial help and a dreamed-of defence pact with China to build up hopes of Chinese support.Faced with such hyperbole, I flipped across to the website of the People’s Daily to see what it had to say about Pakistan. At the time I looked, there was no mention of Pakistan. It did however give prominence to a story about China and India holding a strategic dialogue to build economic ties.The comparison is instructive in so many ways.
First of all Pakistan is not the centre of the world even though those of us who cover it tend to think it is. And China is a big country, setting itself on a trajectory to outstrip the United States. It pays far less attention to India than India does to China, let alone becoming as obsessed with Pakistan’s problems as Pakistan is with casting China in the role of saviour.
Secondly, Pakistan has consistently over-estimated the support it is likely to get from
China for decades. As far back as its 1965 war with India – launched in a failed bid to wrest control of Kashmir – it misjudged China’s willingness to intervene on its behalf. At the time, Pakistan-China relations were riding high. China had just inflicted a humiliating defeat on India in a 1962 border war. Pakistan had then – in Indian eyes – added insult to injury by reaching a provisional border agreement with China and agreeing to build the strategic Karakoram Highway to link it properly to India’s enemy. Yet during the 1965 war, Pakistan’s expectations of Chinese help were proved disastrously wrong.At the time of the 1971 war with India – a crisis bigger than the one faced by Pakistan today – China gave no military support when Pakistan was split in two with Indian backing to carve out the new country of Bangladesh. The United States gave little real help, either, beyond deploying the 7th Fleet to the Bay of Bengal - something that is bitterly remembered by Pakistan – but somehow China’s own record was forgotten.
Indeed history is so stacked up in favour of the argument that Pakistan has consistently over-estimated its likely support from China that it is hard to believe the Pakistan government does not know this already. If it had any doubts it would have cleared these up when the government first sought Chinese financial help in 2008 only to be rebuffed and sent packing to the IMF - a decision which left Pakistan more vulnerable to U.S. influence.And even without the historical evidence, it would be clear that China’s concerns about Pakistan-based Islamist militants focused on its own Xinjiang province would mean that Beijing would be unlikely to come out all guns blazing in defence of Pakistan’s right to tolerate or support groups like the Haqqani network. China is also steadily building economic relations with India – which if anything is even more sensitive than the United States to any hint of tolerance for militant groups by Pakistan or its allies.In other words, it is reasonable to assume the Pakistan government knows full well that there are limits to Chinese support in its confrontation with the United States. And that by extension its “higher than mountains, deeper than oceans” talk is designed for a domestic audience.And this is where it gets even more interesting. What does the government’s public language about China tell us about Pakistan and particularly its civilian-military relations?
Step back for a moment and consider that Mullen’s comments have created a huge nationalistic backlash in Pakistan. Whether by design or default, the biggest beneficiary of this backlash is the Pakistan army as the one institution which can defend the country against any American military attack. (Watch this “war video” clip from Pakistan television celebrating the prowess of Pakistan’s armed forces to see how the American threats are being played domestically.)

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 08:32
by Prem
Dupe Khalased

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 08:41
by SSridhar
In a sense, Pakistan has been under nobody's control. Except for some intermittent periods of time, Pakistan has not had one power centre. Until 1958, the Presidents (or the Governor Generals), the Prime Ministers and the powerful bureaucrats functioned independently and often at cross purposes. Then the Army came into the equation in a big way encouraged by the Americans who wanted to have a one-point contact with the otherwise fragmented Pakistani decision-making apparatus. That central control lasted for some time until Ayub began to be overtaken by an ambitious ZA Bhutto and the the ulema. Thus, the extreme right politico-religious parties and extremist jihadi tanzeems also began to partake power. The Army gives an impression as though it was overall in charge but within itself, there were extremists and moderates. The extremist population within the Pakistani Army has grown significantly over the years. Pakistan has therefore become unruly and its behaviour and respect for international conventions, covenants can no longer be predicted. It all depends upon which group was enjoying more power at that instant.

Pakistan is an elephant that we, the blind men of Hindoostan, are trying to figure out what it really is.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 08:44
by Rangudu
What is evident here is that TSPA leadership cannot control the jihadis in uniform or in mufti (Haqqanis) like an ON/OFF switch. That would be too simplistic and would make TSPA very powerful if it were true. Post 9/11, they had to decentralize the command in order to maintain plausible deniability given that Unkil's eyes and ears were in TSP watching and listening to everything. After May 2, the pressure from the jihadis must have been enormous. Usually, TSPA could redirect the jihadi ire towards India but this time the beards wanted nothing but American blood and hence the escalation. Plus, the fools think that a "few sound blows" can scare away the Americans just like they underestimated India before.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Posted: 28 Sep 2011 08:55
by shiv
The Pakistanis are not making it better for themselves vis a vis the USA. But my real doubt is whether the US is capable of making it better for itself.

They have armed, strengthened and above all trusted the Pakistani army and made it into a monster. I will say it again, as I will continue to say it. Stop arming and funding the Pakistan army. It will be years before it becomes more weak, given what the US has done for it in the last 10 years. Self goal by the USA. Every time I said this on here I was told that the US has the Paki army in control and the funding and arming in US interests. The US works for its own interest and is not bothered about India.. That was utter rubbish - faith in the US based on flawed US calculations.It would be a mistake to imagine that China can somehow "take over" where the US left off. The US was not in control. China too will not control anything. One can hope that the Chinese are less stupid then the US wrt Pakistan.