Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 20 Oct 2012 08:04

shiv wrote:
We can trust and believe what the US tells us about Pakistan in good faith, and become realists and understand the US position and realize that if we reassure Pakistan and become less threatening, Pakistanis will automatically become normal and the US will not have to provide extra arms for Pakistan's extra security needs against India

They found WMDs in Iraq, so I totally agree with you. WMD is (or atleast used to be) called coalition of the willing.

<---sarc off --->

are you serious?

shiv wrote:
2) How do we know that there wont be a Baki itch, in the future, to attack us?
We need to stay prepared, and we need to do whatever we can to ensure that Pakistan's sponsors do not arm them against India using the lame excuse that arms to Pakistan will be used only against Tliban

I agree with you here, anything other than AKs and bullets for the Paki army works against Indian interests.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 20 Oct 2012 08:05

shiv wrote: If we become friendly with Pakistan, then Pakistan should have no need to attack us and it can do the US's job of defeating the Taliban and US arms will not harm us. The US has reassured us that arms to Pakistan are not meant to be used against India and India needs to go a long way to reduce Pakistani fears of India

However, if we oppose Pakistan, the Pakistan army has to fight both India and the Taliban and will find it difficult and it will make things difficult for the US also.

So under the circumstances, good relations with Pakistan is a great idea. The US also maintains good relations with Pakistan, so we can be good neighbors and give them electricity, trade and visas and sporting links and talk to them about everything under the sun. That would be a sensible course that harms the least number of people no?

What is wrong with that policy?

What is wrong is that the pakis are ruled by an army which dreams of flying the green flag on lal qila. Any attempt at forgiving their sins against us and extending a hand of friendship is looked upon by them as a sign of weakness after which plans are usually made to shake our hand while simultaneously planting a kick in our groin.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Oct 2012 08:08

lakshmikanth wrote:
shiv wrote:
We can trust and believe what the US tells us about Pakistan in good faith, and become realists and understand the US position and realize that if we reassure Pakistan and become less threatening, Pakistanis will automatically become normal and the US will not have to provide extra arms for Pakistan's extra security needs against India
They found WMDs in Iraq, so I totally agree with you. WMD is (or atleast used to be) called coalition of the willing.

<---sarc off ---> are you serious?

Rhetorically speaking, is the US serious?

Can India fail to take the US seriously if this is what the US is saying?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Oct 2012 08:10

nachiket wrote:
shiv wrote: If we become friendly with Pakistan, then Pakistan should have no need to attack us and it can do the US's job of defeating the Taliban and US arms will not harm us. The US has reassured us that arms to Pakistan are not meant to be used against India and India needs to go a long way to reduce Pakistani fears of India

However, if we oppose Pakistan, the Pakistan army has to fight both India and the Taliban and will find it difficult and it will make things difficult for the US also.

So under the circumstances, good relations with Pakistan is a great idea. The US also maintains good relations with Pakistan, so we can be good neighbors and give them electricity, trade and visas and sporting links and talk to them about everything under the sun. That would be a sensible course that harms the least number of people no?

What is wrong with that policy?
What is wrong is that the pakis are ruled by an army which dreams of flying the green flag on lal qila. Any attempt at forgiving their sins against us and extending a hand of friendship is looked upon by them as a sign of weakness after which plans are usually made to shake our hand while simultaneously planting a kick in our groin.

So what choice do we have?

MurthyB · Post by **MurthyB** » 20 Oct 2012 08:12

I think shiv already alluded to this above, but I was thinking the same thing. There are 4 possibilities

a) India makes love to pakis, US makes love to pakis (by arming them)
b) India is hostile to pakis, US makes love to pakis (by arming them)
c) India makes love to pakis, US is hostile to them
d) India is hostile, US is hostile

For most of history, it's been state (b). State (a) has been unreachable because state (b) ensures that pakis fart loudly and often at India with deadly results, preventing any transition to (a). However, this chaotic system has been thrown off recently, and the stable Lorentz attractor of state (b) seems to have been nudged into regimes (c) or (d). Some think we should be in state (d) instead of (c) to capitalize while the US is hostile to them. But Indian hostility is itself a catalyst for pakis to GUBO to the US and resume US lovemaking, not to speak of GOI ineffectiveness in preventing US from resuming lovemaking. Then it is back to state (b).

Instead, some others think try state (c). Try to stay in state (c) as long as possible. The belief is that paki tendency to fart at India will be much less then. If us tries to resume lovemaking try to prevent it. Of-course, that is very ineffective since GOI is so terrible at it. But still, if US does resume lovemaking, then we will be in state (a) Is this fleeting? Like presence of matter and anti-matter? Or will it be a stable state with positive security implications for India? Or will GOI make it a fetish to stay in (a) having reached there, and allow Indians to endure farts from Pakis with deadly results below a certain, pretty high threshold? Or will it eventually be back to state (b)? Don't know.

But, it doesn't seem inconsistent or illogical to insist that India gets to make love to pakis, while US shouldn't, if the belief is that this has positive security implications, notwithstanding the ceding of the tactical gain of "revenge" for Mumbai 08.

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 20 Oct 2012 08:13

shiv wrote:
Rhetorically speaking, is the US serious?

Can India fail to take the US seriously if this is what the US is saying?

The US is serious towards their own interest, and they think that it would serve their interest if India appears less threatening to the Bakis. The US is not serious about what our interests are, that is irrelevant to their own interests. It however would be a good sell if it appears to cater to India's interest while they are at it.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 20 Oct 2012 08:15

MurthyB wrote: Instead, some others think try state (c). Try to stay in state (c) as long as possible. The belief is that paki tendency to fart at India will be much less then. If us tries to resume lovemaking try to prevent it. Of-course, that is very ineffective since GOI is so terrible at it.

How many times does this belief have to be proved wrong for Indians to finally rid themselves of their delusions?

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 20 Oct 2012 08:17

nachiket wrote:
MurthyB wrote: Instead, some others think try state (c). Try to stay in state (c) as long as possible. The belief is that paki tendency to fart at India will be much less then. If us tries to resume lovemaking try to prevent it. Of-course, that is very ineffective since GOI is so terrible at it.
How many times does this belief have to be proved wrong for Indians to finally rid themselves of their delusions?

Baki will never stop farting at India, coz Baki == fart. Thankfully it has never been a silent but deadly one.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Oct 2012 08:19

shiv wrote: Karanji, it is disrespectful to address people without the ji unless they are close friends.

As you wish..

We can do a lot of things to Pakistan if we had the political will. But Pakistan is sure to hit back. I would like to see a weak Pakistan hit back so it can be defeated more easily.

Pakistan would be much weaker without US arms and monetary aid to the military.

We could go to war with th US over this if we had political will. But call me a coward, I don't think that is a good idea.

Shivji, Pakistan has always hit us first - even as we speak, there are Pakistanis working to move more sleeper cells to India, trying out new ways to attack us...none of that will change.

What my option does is to make it clear to Pakistan, that it is not one way traffic.

Right now, they have no costs apart from bad PR. The kind they suffered after Mumbai, where every one sat up and said, oh, look thats too much. Why? Because they were scared of having the same thing done to them.

And Pakistanis are fundamentally shameless. Look at the Malala episode. They are already spinning it as one more excuse to give aid. Basically, the ISI has decided they are ok with bad PR as long as they can spin it to get the PA more money. Thats good PR in a way.

So Pakistan is not going to get weaker, while we wait. They will continue to attack us. And if we dont react, well Pakistan just attacks us anyway. Its the story of the scorpion on the back of the frog, crossing the river, scorpion stings, frog says - why, we will both sink. Scorpion says, its my nature.

Fundamentally, Pakistani establishment cannot take the fact that they are NOT the biggest folks around - the uppity Hindus are. They have drunk their own Koolaid for so long they cannot admit they left India not because they were afraid of discrimination. But because they could no longer rule in a 1 man 1 vote system.

Only way to be the biggest around, is to break up India. So it will continue.

Now, America is arming these idiots conventionally. But for everything US gave them, we can get a counter. Tech already exists. The point is to reform our idiotic procurement process, and chalta hain attitude. A Saint cannot sit as a MOD head and deny critical systems. War is a serious matter.

Once you do this, the PA is deterred from conventional war, they will come to the negotiation table. They did so when IG was around, they did so when PVNR let loose his methods on Karachi..

It will be an armed peace - but its better than current "peace", which is dependent on how long we can continue our jizaya antics and how long US keeps the Pakis off our back.

US leverage is also iffy. Tomorrow, if US withdraws from Afghan and cuts off ties with Pak, their remaining leverage will vanish. Unfortunately, so will ours. We have, per all reports, piggybacked heavily on Khans abilities to armtwist Pakis to ceasefire. In return, MMS continues with his vapid games and TOI runs all sorts of asinine campaigns mocking the victims of terror. Step by step, the issues worsen - the average Indian lulled into complacency.

Basically, we are out of options and we have to take the hard path. Throughout our independent history, when it came to such choices, India vacillated. Whether it was going nuclear (late into 80s), developing MIC (early 80s)...

If we stand by and watch now, we are again going to be victims

Running a low grade campaign need not start from our end, but the options need to be there.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 20 Oct 2012 08:47

shiv wrote:There are two questions I ask myself

1. Can the US be wrong?
2. Can US Presidents tell lies?

Answers:
1. Yes
2. Yes

Now the question to ask yourself is what has US policy wrt Pakistan got to do with looking after India's self-interests? India needs to look after its own self-interests. "Why doesn't someone (US/Russia/random country) do something" doesn't work in this case. US doesn't give 2 $hits about India except looking at it thru the prism of its own self interest. India needs to do the same. As Indians, the only thing that should matter to us to what is in our self-interest, rest of the world comes much later. If US is wrong or right or if US president tells lies or lies down on the Oval office table with an intern, what goes our father's?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Oct 2012 08:51

Karan M wrote: Shivji, Pakistan has always hit us first - even as we speak, there are Pakistanis working to move more sleeper cells to India, trying out new ways to attack us...none of that will change.

What my option does is to make it clear to Pakistan, that it is not one way traffic.

Right now, they have no costs apart from bad PR.

Whatever Pakistan has done, they have done using the stability and strength provided by US arms,diplomatic and monetary aid. If that were to stop it would be an advantage to us no matter what we do or do not do.

Aiming to get the US to stop aid to Pakistan by hook or by crook is, in my view a strategy that can only help India. How that can be done has several possibilities with a variable chance of success, but none should be left out. But the aim must never be forgotten or discarded.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Oct 2012 09:01

Raja Bose wrote:
shiv wrote:There are two questions I ask myself

1. Can the US be wrong?
2. Can US Presidents tell lies?
Answers:
1. Yes
2. Yes

Now the question to ask yourself is what has US policy wrt Pakistan got to do with looking after India's self-interests?

It is in India's self interest to get the US to stop arming the Pakistani army.

We need to take any or more of the following options that we can at least cost to us

1. Begging the US and whining
2. Making a loud and public portrayal of how the US policy of arming Pakistan is failing and US governments are lying while Americans are dying
3. Making Pakistanis believe that their army is the servant of the US (which it is)
4. Appearing less threatening to Pakistan and supporting Pakistanis in their quest to get foreign forces out of the region
5. Supporting the claim that the Taliban represent true Islam and saying that the US is anti-Islam and that those who support the US are also against Islam
6. Using any means possible to aggravate anti US sentiment in Pakistan
7. Going to war against the US and sinking ships supplying US material to Pakistan

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 20 Oct 2012 09:06

shiv wrote: It is in India's self interest to get the US to stop arming the Pakistani army.

We need to take any or more of the following options that we can at least cost to us

1. Begging the US and whining
2. Making a loud and public portrayal of how the US policy of arming Pakistan is failing and US governments are lying while Americans are dying
3. Making Pakistanis believe that their army is the servant of the US (which it is)
4. Appearing less threatening to Pakistan and supporting Pakistanis in their quest to get foreign forces out of the region
5. Supporting the claim that the Taliban represent true Islam and saying that the US is anti-Islam and that those who support the US are also against Islam
6. Using any means possible to aggravate anti US sentiment in Pakistan
7. Going to war against the US and sinking ships supplying US material to Pakistan

Can I add two more:
8. Secretly threaten to buy more of Iran's oil
9. Secretly threaten to give noocolar stuff to Iran.

I would say other than 7 (and 1) everything else is feasible

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Oct 2012 09:08

Shivji, agree with you. But I would really wish India had some options beyond just dossiers. I fully wish the US stops aid (of any kind) to the Pakistanis, but IMO, its become a gravy train which both sides don't want to stop. Americans get to subsidize local businesses making fighters like the F-16 by "selling" (donating) to Pakistan. US Admirals/Generals get to visit "friends" in Pakistan and act all like diplomats while "conveying concerns". Its big business for some Americans to be good to Pakistan while Pakistanis sponsor other Pakistanis to kill American troops. I don't fully buy the naivete confusion story regarding Pakistan in US circles. The Americans won the Cold War, they are ruthless practitioners of real politik and power. Naivete only goes so far - somehow with the Pakistanis, they keep making the same mistakes. Only explanation that suffices is that there is enough money for some folks to appear wilfully stupid. Containing India is another possibility but supporting Pakistan even while it attacks Americans, is beyond containing India. Clearly, its a combination of many factors, but old fashioned greed is definitely one amongst them. Wonder when we'll ever get to know who made how much out of the Afghan war.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Oct 2012 09:09

Gentlemen, I think we are regurgitating old arguments we have beaten to death. I am not an information theory expert, but I do know that Claude Shannon showed that if a signal does not change much as a function of time, the information content is zero

. (intuitively obvious based on what is going on here).

I think everyone has an element of truth. I don't think US alone is to blame for India's pathetic inability to take on TSP. MMS's amank ki tamasha is definitely an insult to India and mankind at large. And I don't blame Indian leadership alone, Indians by and large are to take the blame for tolerating someone like MMS as their PM. They deserve what they get. But as I point out in another post, US mollycoddling of TSP is only making things that much harder. In other words, but for US love affair with TSP, Indian would have had more wherewithal to hit this terrorist abomination.

R-man, every US policy does not involve India, but for sure what US does in "South Asia" revolves around India. Were it not for its India calculations, TSP would have been hit hard post 9/11, and especially after TSP perfidy.

But moving on, let me ask the forum this. Except on BR where we have debated in and out whether US mollycoddling of TSP is about containing India, I haven't seen this premise put forth by any heavy weight or big wig both in Inadia and US. Even in India, nationalists like GP, BC, BK etc have never touted this angle. And neither in US except for George Friedman of Straftor. I wonder why?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Oct 2012 09:15

I remember when shri Outrage aka Arnab actually mentioned mollycoddling of Pak by US on some tv show. Some lady academic was there, and my goodness her high and mightyness from the US of A, just could not take the fact that DCH was on the US payroll at some time and India needed to investigate that scumbag. Basically, US media & establishment is all about "with us, or against us", never mind the liberal tagged NYT or the conservative WSJ. They are all the same when it comes to US interests. Like the same way India media is all about protecting moneybags aka INC & first family.

So, its very unlikely that the hidden nuances of US's India policy will ever come out in public

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Oct 2012 09:16

lakshmikanth wrote:
The US is serious towards their own interest, and they think that it would serve their interest if India appears less threatening to the Bakis. The US is not serious about what our interests are, that is irrelevant to their own interests. It however would be a good sell if it appears to cater to India's interest while they are at it.

Yes. It is in US interest to threaten to arm Pakistan with more anti-India weapons unless India modifies its behavior to comply with US interests. So the US can and does arm-twist India.

But it is in India's interest to move in step with the US and befriend Pakistan as long as India is not attacked by Pakistan. The downside is that Pakistan is getting stronger and stronger. If we threaten Pakistan, we see a transfer of different types of weapons to Pakistan.

So US actions are important to India and India must take that into account simply because the US cannot be trusted to help India but it can be trusted to help Pakistan to control India. For the US the best situation is to have Pakistanis fear India so that by calibrating the India threat the US can modify Pakistani behavior. The best situation for India is to help provoke increased hostility and even war between Pakistan and the US.

As long as the US hits Pakistan and Pakistan hits back at the US it is good for us. But even then it is important to keep on complaining that the US is arming and funding Pakistan, which it continues to do.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 20 Oct 2012 09:17

Let us assume for a minute that Unkil, right from the day of Indian independence, had his knife out for SDRE, may be because we are SDRE and we cheated Unkil's poodle and became independent.

Let us also grant it that Unkil devised TSP as a clever way of keeping us in check and thus aided them. In addition to that, let us assume that practically anything that Unkil did wrt TSP was with India (viz., anti-India moves) in mind and nothing else. As R-man put it, the whole US policy of TSP revolved around us.

Furthermore, it is no fault of ours, it is just Unkil's hatred for hindus/indians and dark skinned nations in general..so let us be clear on who started it and who is simply following suit.

Having assumed thus, what are out options

1. Within our limits and capabilities, hit out at Unkil in any and every way possible. Some possible steps (aka Dhanda option)
1.1 Promote anti-Unkil culture in India just as what TSP is doing now, blame CIA for anything and everything including failure of monsoon, defeat of Indian cricket team and so on...call any inconvenient opposition leader such as Morarji Desai "CIA agents"
1.2 Surrender to SU, support whatever they do, including invasion of Europe, Afghan, shooting down of civilian airliners, regime changes, and strongly condemn exact same things done by Unkil. Call it non-aligned and fool Indians schooled in anti-Unkil frame of mind as per 1.1 above (and no one else).
1.3 Try to cozy up to China, sing bhai-bhai tunes and be cheated as a result
1.4 Treat any Unkil ally as enemy as well and keep distance..

Then there is Option 2

2. Engagement (Sama, dhana, bheda option)
2.1 Try to break the jinx by providing Unkil with meaningful alternative of engagement, benefits
2.2 Adopt carrot and stick approach, send clear message that there is money to made and lost, it is Unkil's choice
2.3 Get rid of dogmatic, ideological, knee-jerk anti-Unkil syndrome and look at events and opportunities purely from self-interest pov
2.4 Go with Unkil's priorities where they dont conflict with our own agendas or backyard

Needless to say, Option 1 has been tried for about 50 years. Time to give Option 2 some time to work. And that is what both ABV and UPA are doing or trying to do.

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 20 Oct 2012 09:20

^^^ In option 2.2, where is the stick? What do we have as a stick?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Oct 2012 09:21

Problem started right after 47 when Pseudo Secularism was made the main deity of constitution.
Indian lacks the leadership and guts.
USA lacks the Ethics and Prinnciples
Paki lacks the Morals, Civilization and Intelligence
UQ=Just naked BDY, Chors and Haramkhors
Solution is to grow, grow and grow and grow so much that no one dare to earn our wrath. Become closssal Shesh Nag ,Hiss and show fangs repeatedly so the little Choohas , Billis , Kuttas and Lomris stay away. Bite only when its necessary.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 20 Oct 2012 09:25

lakshmikanth wrote:^^^ In option 2.2, where is the stick? What do we have as a stick?

There are many...not obeying Unkil on Iran, buying arms from others, buying Airbus, keeping engagement with China/Russia, and so on..

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Oct 2012 09:26

Suppiah wrote:
lakshmikanth wrote:^^^ In option 2.2, where is the stick? What do we have as a stick?

Artillery in 2047 !!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Oct 2012 09:28

Karan M wrote: I don't fully buy the naivete confusion story regarding Pakistan in US circles. The Americans won the Cold War, they are ruthless practitioners of real politik and power.

Karanji the US record is mixed.

They contributed to a decisive victory in WW2
They lost the Cold war in Korea.
They lost Vietnam, Period
They sat and licked their wounds for decades until they managed to extract revenge for Korea and Vietnam in Afghanistan, using Pakistani help. Pakistanis know their own contribution and fully understand the US's willpower and capability.

Iran, NoKo and Pakistan are all states that will push the US to the limit and the US is unable to show ts much advertised ruthlessness. The US has a bigger reputation than its actual heft and my argument on this thread has been that the US's reputation is maintained by a bunch of people who claim that the US can do a lot of things. But the US will not actually do any of that. It has the capability but not the will. So US ability to take on Pakistan can be dismissed with a derisive laugh. Pakistanis are doing that. I would safely bet that the US's power and ruthlessness is all fluff against Pakistan. The US will always wimp out and pretend that Pakistani aggravation is not enough to declare war. But war between Pakistan and the US is in India's interest.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 20 Oct 2012 09:29

Jhujar wrote:Solution is to grow, grow and grow and grow so much that no one dare to earn our wrath.

Very true..but that also requires shedding this pisko sickness that anything Unkil/West is bad and that including economic policy and trade/investment policies. Unfortunately we did exactly that at least until mid-90s. China was smart enough to know and do exact opposite.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 20 Oct 2012 09:29

shiv wrote: It is in India's self interest to get the US to stop arming the Pakistani army.

We need to take any or more of the following options that we can at least cost to us

1. Begging the US and whining
2. Making a loud and public portrayal of how the US policy of arming Pakistan is failing and US governments are lying while Americans are dying
3. Making Pakistanis believe that their army is the servant of the US (which it is)
4. Appearing less threatening to Pakistan and supporting Pakistanis in their quest to get foreign forces out of the region
5. Supporting the claim that the Taliban represent true Islam and saying that the US is anti-Islam and that those who support the US are also against Islam
6. Using any means possible to aggravate anti US sentiment in Pakistan
7. Going to war against the US and sinking ships supplying US material to Pakistan

Exactly. These steps would be much more productive coming from GoI instead of whining about CTs targeting India.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 20 Oct 2012 09:34

KLNMurthy wrote:Sugar daddies should be told to stop.

Go ahead and tell them. But are they going to listen? Shiv ji had been doing it for a long time here on BRF. But it is nothing but "araNya rOdanam". There is no point going kolaveridi on a the Indian Americans who themselves are - in his eyes - "very low on the social pyramid" here in US.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 20 Oct 2012 09:36

Unkil's support to TSP is like food. Stop it and the effect wears off pretty soon. PRCs support for TSP is like drugs, effect never goes away. Who can or will de-nook TSP now, even if there is 0.001% chance of doing so? PRC?

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 20 Oct 2012 09:43

shiv wrote: ...snip...
6. Using any means possible to aggravate anti US sentiment in Pakistan

Shiv ji, now you are talking. Nobody has any leverage on US polity (not even US public other than every 4 years) as long as Pakistan keeps low.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Oct 2012 09:46

matrimc wrote:
shiv wrote: ...snip...
6. Using any means possible to aggravate anti US sentiment in Pakistan
Shiv ji, now you are talking. Nobody has any leverage on US polity (not even US public other than every 4 years) as long as Pakistan keeps low.

Well I don't know about GoI, but I think the Taliban represent true islam. Don't they quote from the Quran and live by the book?

Incidentally I also think that the moderate Army of Pakistan should use US aid and defeat the extremist Taliban and let moderation and liberalism thrive.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 20 Oct 2012 09:50

Pardon me if I am a little slow, but I don't see the connection. ~~Are you saying that Taliban has some leverage? Pakistani Army?~~ I see it now. Yes, I have already said that US is under somebody's thumb because of Afghanistan. Once the need for access to Afghanistan is gone, it is time for us to crack open a Guinness or two, get some kaju and chillax.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 20 Oct 2012 09:51

Lilo wrote:
Suppiah wrote: I read somewhere recently, BJPs Gadkari, after his trip to China said one day we can be friends with TSP but never so with China.
Suppiah ji ,
Interesting assesment by Gadkari
can you point to a source ?

Ahh Simple

"True pleasure lies in the company of inferiors"
Therefore the Aman ki tamasha aka talash

We are not yet equal to china leave alone being superior power
Hence the above
Inshallah the day will come when we will enjoy the company of china as well till then we need fill our cup boards

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 20 Oct 2012 09:51

matrimc wrote:Pardon me if I am a little slow, but I don't see the connection. Are you saying that Taliban has some leverage? Pakistani Army?

shivji is trying to create a conflict between the US (i.e. TSPA) and Pakistan (i.e. Taliban)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Oct 2012 09:56

matrimc wrote:Pardon me if I am a little slow, but I don't see the connection. Are you saying that Taliban has some leverage? Pakistani Army?

Never mind. It's my kind of hidden ironic joke. My post tells all the truths that no one can disagree with. But it also calls for the Pakistani army to use US aid to fight true Islam represented by the Taliban. That should make the US and the Pakistani army popular in Pakistan.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Oct 2012 10:03

There is no Pakistani in Pakistan that I know of who is willing to publicly declare the Taliban as being un-Islamic. I am sure Pakistanis know all there is to know about Islam, so the Taliban are true Muslims of the highest order.

The US wants the Pakistan army to fight the Taliban and is wantonly killing people declared as "Taliban" using drones. The Pakistan air force allows those drones to overfly Pakistan without shooting even one of them down. Money and arms to fight and kill the Taliban are being provided to the Pakistan army by the US.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 20 Oct 2012 10:17

Shiv ji, OK, got it, will shut up now.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 20 Oct 2012 10:22

Karan jiet al who are in syn with him

I have been crooning like the cacophonix since 1998

TS Pakistani terror is because of Indian export of Dawwod Bhai to Karachi
He is RAW agent gone rogue but still helps India by keeping TSP in headlines,
It is the acumen of TSP Generals to convert him as a Cash Cow by milking Unkil by udder
Some times by balls.
Neither of which skill our leadership have to milk land of honey but have in abundance to milk our own people.

Russians are kind they at least entertained Indian complaints unkil would have given a lecture on how the Arms to TSP is Indo American strategic co operation to make India a super power
And we get bloated..

Simple we don't have a end game, because

we are the game TSP is hunting

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 20 Oct 2012 13:23

Instead of blaming US we must find and advocate a way that could serve interest of both.

In my opinion forget everything and fiercely lobby Independence for Baluchistan at the international level. Convince US that it will serve their interest of keeping their strong foot in the region and get rid of TSPA double games. Lets take a front position and let the US work in the background.

If a munna all that US need then lets work together to give US a new munna in place of old munna.

Rajagopal · Post by **Rajagopal** » 20 Oct 2012 16:15

The below post is the second one in series of "Don’t blame the Taliban" by Mr. Kunwar Kuldune shahid. The writer is Editor Business/City (Karachi), Pakistan Today.
He either has iron balls (or a death wish) to write the below article clearly pinpointing the source of all problems in Pakistan.
The original article was carried first by Pakistan-Today, which has since developed cold feet and pulled it off their website. You will see both the columns in the UK Telegraph.

Part 1: http://my.telegraph.co.uk/kkshahid/kksh ... e-taliban/

Part 2: http://my.telegraph.co.uk/kkshahid/kksh ... aliban-ii/

I like how he directly questions the violent laws in Islam in part 2.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 20 Oct 2012 16:40

Not sure if I am in the right thread but this next piece is about the nut farm called Pa'astan. Someone finally figured out what's wrong with that looney bin. Its Urbanism!.

The conflict between Pa'astan’s lived and imagined culture

One wonders what goes through the minds and conscience of millions of people in Pakistan...

Our notions of right and wrong have been scrambled. Our moral clock is set at a different time and long lost social order

Socially and culturally Pakistan is...no longer a predominantly agricultural country.

Pakistan has become an urban country.

Pakistan has taken to material modernisation readily.

Urban living demands collective goods such as water supply and waste disposal, universal literacy, traffic control, police and fire services.

Urban life is based on a social contract

Urban life necessitates intricate division of labour and coordination of activities.

In Pakistan...non-material culture is not only lagging but is actively moving towards orthodox Islamic mores. Here lies the dilemma: Pakistan’s material culture is modernising and non-material culture is Islamising.

We are in a state of moral conflict.

So, if pa'astan and islam have to survive together (with pa'astan as the fort of islam) and remove this moral conflict (Star TV or sword), it must move back to its agrarian roots. Pol Pot and Mao would have resolved the paki dilemma in a jiffy.Where's the next salahuddin or ahmad shah abdali when you need one?

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 20 Oct 2012 18:42

CRamS wrote:Gentlemen, I think we are regurgitating old arguments we have beaten to death. I am not an information theory expert, but I do know that Claude Shannon showed that if a signal does not change much as a function of time, the information content is zero . (intuitively obvious based on what is going on here).

I think everyone has an element of truth. I don't think US alone is to blame for India's pathetic inability to take on TSP. MMS's amank ki tamasha is definitely an insult to India and mankind at large. And I don't blame Indian leadership alone, Indians by and large are to take the blame for tolerating someone like MMS as their PM. They deserve what they get. But as I point out in another post, US mollycoddling of TSP is only making things that much harder. In other words, but for US love affair with TSP, Indian would have had more wherewithal to hit this terrorist abomination.

R-man, every US policy does not involve India, but for sure what US does in "South Asia" revolves around India. Were it not for its India calculations, TSP would have been hit hard post 9/11, and especially after TSP perfidy.

But moving on, let me ask the forum this. Except on BR where we have debated in and out whether US mollycoddling of TSP is about containing India, I haven't seen this premise put forth by any heavy weight or big wig both in Inadia and US. Even in India, nationalists like GP, BC, BK etc have never touted this angle. And neither in US except for George Friedman of Straftor. I wonder why?

Nobody is debating it because the information content is zero, this thing is going on and known for such a long time.