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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Jul 2012 22:52
by Prem
Saudi Shocks Paks With Pro-India Turn
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/ ... ndia-turn/
In steps that point to Saudi Arabia’s concerns about Pakistan’s unsustainable national course, its fears of Iran and its renewed interest in its security relationship with the United States, the Washington Post reports that Saudi Arabia is stepping up its cooperation with Indian authorities on the sensitive question of Pakistani or Indian nationals suspected of terror activities and hiding in Saudi Arabia — in some cases people who are traveling on false documents apparently provided by people with access to the resources of the Pakistani state.The Saudis are doing India some other favors as well, reports the Post. They want India’s help in putting pressure on Iran, and are helping India replace any oil lost as a result of declining purchases from what Saudi thinks of as the hated Persian heretics. There is even talk of Saudi good offices being used to help India expand its commercial networks in the Arab world. Historically, the Indian subcontinent had close economic links with the Arabs, and a revival of those connections would help India’s economy and partially offset China’s rising profile.The Saudis are pretty good at foreign policy, and this shift seems to reflect several calculations.
1.The Saudis are really, really worried about Iran. Helping steer India away from reflexive “non-aligned” third world opposition to western power projection in the region helps clear the path for what many Saudis deeply hope will be an effective western military strike that puts Iran in its place.
2.The Saudis don’t like radical terrorism. Worries about Al-Qaeda at home and in neighboring Yemen have killed any illusions some Saudis may have had about terror groups. The Saudi state is theologically hardline but geopolitically moderate. It worries about Pakistan’s connections with terror groups and would like Pakistan to distance itself from groups whose violence endangers the Saudis at home.
3.The fears of terrorism, Iran and the Arab Spring have led the Saudis to put new importance on their relationship with the US. From the Saudi point of view, with Europe weak and China very far away, the US is the only possible ally that can help the Saudis with the problems that keep them up at night. Helping India with terrorism and to pull it away from Iran pleases Washington but also strengthens the configuration of forces that the Saudi authorities think are best placed to protect their state and their regime.
But it’s as important to understand what this isn’t as to see what it is. The Saudis are not turning their backs on Pakistan completely. Ties between the two countries are extremely deep. These two Sunni Islamic states that were aligned with Washington during the Cold War and that cooperated against the Soviets in Afghanistan have a lot of history together. Many observers believe that the Saudis provided financial support and other assistance in Pakistan’s nuclear program, and there are many indications that a range of prominent Pakistani politicians nurture close links with the Saudis, links from which they derive substantial benefits of various kinds. This isn’t going anywhere, but we can expect the Saudis to use their influence to try to cool Pakistan’s ardor for using radical groups as instruments of policy.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Jul 2012 22:55
by svinayak
Jhujar wrote: The Saudis are pretty good at foreign policy, and this shift seems to reflect several calculations.
How Cool

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Jul 2012 23:49
by RamaY
Very good article. Tells few things about Saudis.

* They are scare of Persian control over Arab lands
* Their main concern is Pakistan's ability to support KSAs security needs. That is why they do not want India to hurt Pakistan and are willing to help India in specific areas. Paki value proposition to KSA
- Cannon fodder in case of war (paid army)
- Nuke umbrella.
The key is that India can replace Pakis on the 2nd item but not the 1st item. So Pakis will always have better value proposition to KSA than India.

* In the event of Iran-GCC war, they want India to remain neutral, while Pakis support KSA/GCC.
- More the reason for India to support Persians

* If Oman is small for Persians, is KSA big for Bharatiyas?
- Need to set proper master-slave relationship

* How much influence KSA has on Pakistan? Is it relationship of ==s or KSA>Pak or Pak>KSA especially in the matters of military and nuke power? What happens if Pakis decide to extend their strategic depth to the holy lands and provide nuke cover?
- Time for India to provide ICBM/Surya technology to Pakis?

* What should be the Bharatiya/Persian relationship?
- Need for strong navy
- Iran+Afghanista+Russian+CAR alliance to control China+PoK+Pak alliance to access ME?
- Can Iran return the clock to <700AD?

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 13 Jul 2012 00:00
by RajeshA
RamaY wrote: - Can Iran return the clock to <700AD?
<2500 BC

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 13 Jul 2012 00:16
by RamaY
:) that would make my post a religious discussion.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 13 Jul 2012 00:41
by shyamd
Couple of quick points
RamaY wrote:
The key is that India can replace Pakis on the 2nd item but not the 1st item. So Pakis will always have better value proposition to KSA than India.
Yes but we will be a big customer and they will use the same funds to help us grow our wealth = more money for defence etc as they did for the US
* In the event of Iran-GCC war, they want India to remain neutral, while Pakis support KSA/GCC.
- More the reason for India to support Persians
We have influence in both places and both have influence over us to varying degrees. US, PRC and GCC say the same thing - Pakis create the problem and run to them for help !!
* How much influence KSA has on Pakistan? Is it relationship of ==s or KSA>Pak or Pak>KSA especially in the matters of military and nuke power? What happens if Pakis decide to extend their strategic depth to the holy lands and provide nuke cover?
- Time for India to provide ICBM/Surya technology to Pakis?
Pakis have a nuke umbrella over the region already. In terms of influence - no one does. US has the biggest influence and hasn't been able to do anything - you can forget GCC and PRC who receive Paki maaring as and when needed via jeehadi's too... Dont forget TSP is the one that gave Iran the tech for a weapon! And TSP is responsible for the jeehard in Xinjiang!
* What should be the Bharatiya/Persian relationship?
- Need for strong navy
- Iran+Afghanista+Russian+CAR alliance to control China+PoK+Pak alliance to access ME?
- Can Iran return the clock to <700AD?
We already have a decent relationship - AfPak - Iranians are more worried than us says NSA Menon privately. Problem you will have is Talebs and Iran enmity can diminish if current Iranian regime changes - in one way it is good as AfPak can stabilise (possibly less terror in the long run). So Iran could go into US fold like it was before and will be pro US policy - i.e. give problems for Russia in Central asia and if US says no, they could cut our access etc. In the event of Pak India war - Iran could side with TSP due to pro US leanings like it was back in the day.

Despite the Iranians showing lip service to Kashmir issue, our interests could be better served with current regime. Thats my feeling.

But it takes time to fully explain the reasons why and the options we have.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 13 Jul 2012 07:56
by Philip
After first accusing the Syrians of shooting down their recce F-4,the Turks now are not sure whether that actually happened from this report and that there was no evidence from the wreckage of combustible material indicating that the aircraft was shot down by a missile.It may have crashed taking evasive manoeuvres from this report.The Turks now talk about the aircraft "claimed" to have been shot down by Syria! Will those warmongering western nations and cretins like Ms.Clinton,who roundly condemned the Syrians in the immediate aftermath of the event and are still baying for an invasion to oust Assad now retract their statements? No way Jose!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/ ... UO20120712

Xcpt:
Turkish military sows confusion over downed jet

By Jonathon Burch

ANKARA | Thu Jul 12, 2012

(Reuters) - Turkish armed forces statements over the loss of a warplane off the Syrian coast last month are fuelling speculation the military may be revising its initial assertion the plane was shot down by Syrian air defenses in international airspace.

Turkish government spokesman Bulent Arinc, seeking to allay confusion over apparent contradictions emerging in official accounts of the plane's loss along with its two pilots, reasserted the original version to reporters on Thursday.

"It is better not to come to different conclusions by getting hung up on certain nuances. We are talking about an important subject. The Turkish jet was downed, the Syrian government which downed it has said 'we downed it'," he said.

But Turkish newspapers homed in on a military statement issued hours after Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan himself complained on Wednesday of a "campaign inside Turkey and ... a campaign abroad" to misrepresent the June 22 incident.

The General Staff referred in the statement to the aircraft which "Syrian official authorities subsequently claimed to have shot down". The use of the word 'claimed', absent from previous accounts, aroused confusion over an incident which many Turks had initially feared could lead to a war.

The loss of the aircraft raised tensions between Syria and Turkey, which has been harboring Syrian rebel forces and refugees on its territory and has called for the departure of President Bashar al-Assad. Turkey dispatched its own air defense systems to its long frontier with Syria.

Turkey said after the incident that its aircraft was testing Turkish air defenses. Some analysts have speculated that, flying low and fast as it was near the boundaries of both states, it could have been probing Syrian defenses.

Further adding to uncertainty over the plane's fate, the armed forces statement declared that no traces of "petroleum-based, combustible or fire accelerant substances, organic and inorganic explosive substance residues, or any kind of ammunition" were found on debris from the wreckage floating on the sea's surface.

Hurriyet daily, quoting an unnamed retired Turkish admiral, said this statement meant there was no possibility of the jet having been brought down by a missile. Retired Brigadier-General Ali Er Was quoted as saying the statement could mean the plane had, for instance, crashed on an evasive maneuver.

CONFUSION

The military has offered no clarification of its statement, despite several enquiries by Reuters.

"Okay, so how did this plane crash?" ran the front-page headline of the liberal daily Radikal on Thursday. "19 days later the discourse has changed," Milliyet said. "The military said 'claimed'," ran the headline in Cumhuriyet.

Syria said hours after it crashed into the Mediterranean that it had shot down the F-4 jet in self-defense and without knowing that it was a Turkish aircraft. It said it shot the plane at close range with anti-aircraft fire after it flew into its air space at high speed and low altitude.

Turkey has said it violated Syrian air space accidentally for a few minutes but maintains its plane was shot down by a missile in international air space and without any warning.

With many questions still unanswered, the military and government's handling of the incident may not be enough to satisfy everyone.

"The confusion sparked is not the kind to be forgotten easily, and with such clumsy moves Turkey is overshadowing its own thesis, supported by its NATO allies, that its plane was shot down without any warning, even if it had violated Syrian air space," wrote Murat Yetkin in Hurriyet Daily News.

(Writing by Jonathon Burch)

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 13 Jul 2012 08:40
by abhishek_sharma

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 13 Jul 2012 12:22
by shyamd
Syria Moves Chemical Stockpile http://on.wsj.com/Nvcv0u #WSJ

Uh oh... Syrians moving their chemical weapons. Important article confirms from US officials what we knew om BR about Preparations to grab the chemical weapons. We knew this 3 months ago! This is breaking news today!

Folks, I think NATO is making preparations for intervention... This article is meant to scare Asad and play on his mind. Standard NATO warfare
UK, Israeli and turkey navys are conducting an exercise south of Cyprus. Unclear if turkey is invited to the party or not.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 13 Jul 2012 16:17
by Austin
I suppose it would be very natural for Syria or any nation to keep its Nuclear/Chemical stockpile not in a fixed position as their position may be known to an advesary , its also possible they might move their CBW stockpile to a more secure position then it is right now as they might fear FSA or Special ops by other nation against it. After all they are in a state of war.

To me it seems routine Opsec that they move their CBW to safer location atleast those that may have been exposed by defectors.

Not sure why this should be an extraordinary event unless they are distributing their stored CWC stockpike to Army Units to be used which would be a cause of concern , which doesnt seem to be the case.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 13 Jul 2012 16:24
by Austin
MI6 chief Sir John Sawers: 'We foiled Iranian nuclear weapons bid'
Sir John Sawers said that covert operations by British spies had prevented the Iranians from developing nuclear weapons as early as 2008.

However, the MI6 chief said it was now likely they would achieve their goal by 2014, making a military strike from the US and Israel increasingly likely.

Sir John gave a secret briefing to the Cabinet in March about Iran’s growing military threat but this is the first time his views on the issue have been made public.

It is extremely rare for the head of MI6 to disclose details of operations by the intelligence service.

Sir John made the remarks at a meeting of around 100 senior civil servants in London last week in only his second public speech since he was appointed to the post in 2009.

Speaking at the Civil Service Live event in Olympia he said that Iran was now “two years away” from becoming a “nuclear weapons state”.

He said that “when that moment came” Israel or the United States would have to decide whether to launch a military strike.

“The Iranians are determinedly going down a path to master all aspects of nuclear weapons; all the technologies they need,” he said. “It’s equally clear that Israel and the United States would face huge dangers if Iran were to become a nuclear weapon state.”


Sir John said that without MI6’s work dealing with the threat, “you’d have Iran as a nuclear weapons state in 2008 rather than still being two years away in 2012.”

Sir John said it was up to MI6 to “delay that awful moment when the politicians may have to take a decision between accepting a nuclear-armed Iran or launching a military strike against Iran.”

When that moment came, he said: “I think it will be very tough for any prime minister of Israel or president of the United States to accept a nuclear-armed Iran.”


Iran has previously accused Israel and the US of trying to disrupt its nuclear programme through covert operations by Mossad, MI6 and the CIA.

Several Iranian nuclear scientists have been apparently assassinated in recent years while a powerful computer virus known as Stuxnet attacked the computer systems of their nuclear facilities.

Britain and America denied the allegations but Israel has remained silent on the issue.

Sir John disclosed that MI6 has “run a series of operations to ensure that the sanctions introduced internationally are implemented, and that we do everything we can within the Middle East to slow down these remaining problems.

“I take great pride in the fact that, in the last ten years, over a number of jobs, I’ve been involved in an issue of global concern, and I feel that I as an individual [have made] an impact in the outcome of events.”

The session – which was open to visitors to the event – was titled “Unclassified chat: Sir John Sawers CMG” and was reported in Civil Service World, a publication which is dedicated to senior Whitehall officials.

Disclosure of his remarks came as the US stepped up their sanctions against front companies suspected of supplying appaernt nuclear materials to Iran after an international oil embargo started earlier this month.

His warning of a nuclear Iran in 2014 could throw the Coalition into turmoil just before the next general election.

The Liberal Democrats have ruled out supporting any military action against the regime but David Cameron has repeatedly said that “all options” are on the table.

Senior Conservatives believe that the issue could finally cause the Coalition to split as Britain would be forced to support any American action.

In March, Sir John spoke to more than 20 ministers about the latest intelligence on the growing fear that Israel is poised to launch a pre-emptive strike against Tehran.

The secrecy around the briefing was so high that ministers were ordered to leave their mobile phones outside the Cabinet room.

There are claims that basic mobile phones, without specialist anti-eavesdropping security, can be converted into “listening devices” by foreign intelligence agen
cies.

The highly unusual briefing was thought to have raised questions about Israel’s military capacity to destroy Iranian nuclear sites, which are buried deep underground.

The MI6 chief was also understood to have warned about the potential threat to Britain from a nuclear arms race in the Middle East.

That came after Foreign secretary William Hague warned that Iran’s pursuit of nuclear weapons threatened to trigger a “new Cold War” that posed an even greater threat of nuclear conflict than the stand-off between the USSR and the West.

In an interview with The Daily Telegraph, Mr Hague said that Iran was threatening to spark a nuclear arms race in the Middle East which could be more dangerous than the original East-West Cold War as there are not the same “safety mechanisms” in place.

“It is a crisis coming down the tracks,” he said. “Because they are clearly continuing their nuclear weapons programme…

“If they obtain nuclear weapons capability, then I think other nations across the Middle East will want to develop nuclear weapons.

“And so, the most serious round of nuclear proliferation since nuclear weapons were invented would have begun with all the destabilizing effects in the Middle East.

“And the threat of a new cold war in the Middle East without necessarily all the safety mechanisms … That would be a disaster in world affairs.”

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 13 Jul 2012 16:32
by Austin
I think it would be naive to depend on Israel US or British intelligence solely to prove Iran is x years away from Nuclear weapons or for that matter they even have the capacity to develop one or the intention , they have denied that many times.

All UN monitoring proves that they are no closer to developing Nuclear Weapons ......hence the extra legal measures by US beyond the UN to sanction Iran since they couldnt prove that in UN that Iran was developing nuclear weapons or was closer to it.

Western Intelligence have the tendency to fashion intelligence in the way their Political Masters want to hear , some thing well proven during Iraqi Invasion ....where Mobile NCB Vans pictures were shown at UN and US tried to convince that Iraq was pursuing CBW program which after the invasion was totally proven wrong.

Hence I am a bit skeptical of this so called MI6 report and how they delayed or foiled plans etc .....for all you know they might be tailoring intelligence to suite their political masters and make their decision making task much easier then other way round.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 13 Jul 2012 17:16
by brihaspati
We should not swallow the propaganda in favour of KSA benefiting India's "future defence expenditure" and making India a sooper-power like KSA supposedly make US a sooper-power with its money.

KSA, from its ruling regime perspective - cannot do something that will jeopardize the strength, the nuisance capacity, and the military takleef causing capabilities against India of Pak, so much so that India becomes uncontested in the zone. Paki nuisance making capabilities are as much in KSA interest as in paki interest, since such a capacity helps to keep a lever on India and maintain a kind of detente on the eastern side of the Gulf. KSA's strategic interest will be to balance out India and Pak evenly, so that each can be used in KSA interest - and each soften up to the Saudi regime. This is no route to sooper-powerdom, and its patently dishonest to compare with the USA which funded its own growth to sooper-powerdom way before Saudis became Saudis. More so therefore dishonest to claim that KSA investments will fund defence growth for India. It will not be funded to the extent that India gains the capacity to wipe Pak out without any significant retaliation.

With India, and its high decibel financial-flow activists of course it becomes easier. But this flow probably onlee benefits the financier circles, who invest onlee in a small coterie of high-investment consumers, who between them profit and ship a part of the profit away from the Indian economy into private offshore stacks and other investments.

The internal domestic consequences of KSA funding is something that pro-flow lobby always remains silent about - which is the growth of the madrassah industry, more promotional tours by Saudi theologians who have recorded past sentiments against Indian views of J&K, and given past indications a potential for greater paralysis by the Indian state machinery before politico-theological activism of particular type. Funding could also indirectly be investing directly in political parties besides financier goodwill, which means a security threat too.

But overall, strategic interests of the ruling regime in KSA itself dictates detente and balance of power and hence dependence on the Sauds -not strengthening of India vis-a-vis Pak.

With Iran and Talebs, this current regime has long been hobnobbing with the Talebs. It is in the strategic interests of the current Iranian regime to invest in the Talebs, as an anti-US force with a strong theological motivation that makes them appear, at least to Khomeini types, a more reliable ally than the heterodox Indians. Iranian interests are to remove US influences from the Gulf, which a Taleb controlled AFG will greatly help.

In the end the master coup could be effected by USA itself - which placed Khomeini in power after removing the Shah, and which helped the Taleban come to power to remove Soviet influence. In the end, the US might have the last laugh again before it starts on its long Brit-empire like decline, by replacing the Khomeinist regime and bringing the Talebs back to power.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 13 Jul 2012 17:57
by prahaar
@Brihaspatiji, I really doubt whether KSA has the capability to balance out India and Pakistan (even if they wish and try). OTOH, I agree completely with you that KSA cannot make India a military-power either. The only country that can make India a military power is India - there is no short cut to achieve this capability (as our efforts in Kaveri, LCA, Agni, etc show). It is an effort that will need multiple decades, not a matter of gettings funds for 10 Super Duper RFPs.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 13 Jul 2012 21:47
by Austin
Funny first they claimed it was shot down in neutral waters , then in their own airspace and now it wasnt shot down at all :lol:

Turkey Denies Fighter Shot Down by Syria
The General Staff of Turkey’s Armed Forces on Friday backed down from its previous claim that its fighter jet was downed last month by Syrian forces.

“The actual cause of the incident will be established after the plane wreckage is raised from the seabed,” the General Staff said in a statement.

"No traces of explosives or flammable products were found on the debris recovered from the sea."

According to some media reports, the F-4 Phantom probably crashed due to human error after the pilots failed to perform an evasive maneuver to avoid the Syrian missile.

Syria has insisted it engaged the F-4 Phantom "according to the laws that govern such situations" after it strayed into its airspace. Turkey says the plane was in international airspace.

Syrian Information Minister Omran al-Zoebi has said his country's forces may have mistaken the Turkish jet for an Israeli one.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 13 Jul 2012 22:19
by shyamd
^^ They are looking like fools.

----------

On the chemical weapons. No one is sure the reasons for movin but leaking the news is basically a warning to Asad. Obviously, Unkil and co are worried and this is a coordinated leak in UK by sky news and the US in WSJ. This is how they operate per NATO SOP. I said earlier goras are waiting for green light. A major effort has been underway covertly.

For Israel, they have no choice but to intervene and prevent transfer to Hezbollah.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 13 Jul 2012 22:30
by KLNMurthy
^^
Is the aircraft downing confusion a case of kemalist military pushing back against Erdogan's pan-sunni agenda?

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 13 Jul 2012 23:20
by shyamd
Their closest ally the US of A embarresed them. They need to save face and protect their pride somehow.

--------------------
Ban ki moon due in Beijing and Kofi off to Russia on Monday. Obviously Syria is to be discussed. Both racking up their air miles while they can and maybe they'll get a good pension out of all this.

Both sides going for the kill. Fight to the death.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 14 Jul 2012 00:52
by Austin
Well bottom line is Turkey simply lied and went to the extent to try to involve NATO with some sort of no fly zone over this incident and that did not fly much.

The Russians ,Turkey and Syria would have had the flight path on their radar so it was not something hidden , never mind though.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 14 Jul 2012 01:13
by brihaspati
Only the fanciful thought of war shooting off from the downing of the Turkish jet. I think some of us suggested immediately that it would not go to war, and personally I expressed my doubts as to whether Erdogan was at all sincere in his supposed hostility towards the Syrian regime.

Now when is this any-time-now war that was supposed to have started weeks ago - finally going to happen?

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 14 Jul 2012 03:13
by pentaiah
War is a pleasant pass time when the (treasury) cup is brimming and overflowing. It also a purposeful endeavor when nations are broke completely thereby necessitating a diversion or a plunder cum loot.

In the case of Syria, unkil and allies are not completely broke nor brimming with coins to spare pass time. Libiya was to divert attention for France Italy UK and to a lesser extent USA

The EU Aam aadmi has no stomach for a war that is not threatening lives in Europe as the election results have shown in France Greece Spain

The only beneficiaries are KSA Israel and Turkey and among the three only KSA has a cup brimming and over flowing. Even they are reluctant to Finance the war as oil prices are not exactly shooting up because the war? Wars like Libyan and syrian one will be too short but bloody civil war may continue with out oil prices changing adding to destabilizing the equilibrium another Lebanon may be?

So not much of chance the BS of C&B weapons even Iran joining the chorus is only to add masala format status quo. Syria is also encouraging it because of historical precedence set by Saddam. The moment it was confirmed he did not have any maal he was a goner...

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 14 Jul 2012 07:00
by Pranav
The Syrian opposition: who's doing the talking? - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... he-talking

This article from the Guardian takes a deeper look into the backgrounds of many of the Syrian opposition figures. Here is a an excerpt about the SNC's most senior spokesperson Bassma Kodmani.

---------------------

Image
Here is Bassma Kodmani, seen leaving this year's Bilderberg conference in Chantilly, Virginia.

Kodmani is a member of the executive bureau and head of foreign affairs, Syrian National Council. Kodmani is close to the centre of the SNC power structure, and one of the council's most vocal spokespeople. "No dialogue with the ruling regime is possible. We can only discuss how to move on to a different political system," she declared this week. And here she is, quoted by the newswire AFP: "The next step needs to be a resolution under Chapter VII, which allows for the use of all legitimate means, coercive means, embargo on arms, as well as the use of force to oblige the regime to comply."

This statement translates into the headline "Syrians call for armed peacekeepers" (Australia's Herald Sun). When large-scale international military action is being called for, it seems only reasonable to ask: who exactly is calling for it? We can say, simply, "an official SNC spokesperson," or we can look a little closer.

This year was Kodmani's second Bilderberg. At the 2008 conference, Kodmani was listed as French; by 2012, her Frenchness had fallen away and she was listed simply as "international" – her homeland had become the world of international relations.

Back a few years, in 2005, Kodmani was working for the Ford Foundation in Cairo, where she was director of their governance and international co-operation programme. The Ford Foundation is a vast organisation, headquartered in New York, and Kodmani was already fairly senior. But she was about to jump up a league.

Around this time, in February 2005, US-Syrian relations collapsed, and President Bush recalled his ambassador from Damascus. A lot of opposition projects date from this period. "The US money for Syrian opposition figures began flowing under President George W Bush after he effectively froze political ties with Damascus in 2005," says the Washington Post.

In September 2005, Kodmani was made the executive director of the Arab Reform Initiative (ARI) – a research programme initiated by the powerful US lobby group, the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) [which is in turn an affiliate of the RIIA (Royal Institute of International Affairs aka Chatham House), set up by the Rothschild syndicate].

The CFR is an elite US foreign policy thinktank, and the Arab Reform Initiative is described on its website as a "CFR Project" . More specifically, the ARI was initiated by a group within the CFR called the "US/Middle East Project" – a body of senior diplomats, intelligence officers and financiers, the stated aim of which is to undertake regional "policy analysis" in order "to prevent conflict and promote stability". The US/Middle East Project pursues these goals under the guidance of an international board chaired by General (Ret.) Brent Scowcroft.

Image
Peter Sutherland pictured at the Bilderberg conference. Photograph: Hannah Borno

Brent Scowcroft (chairman emeritus) is a former national security adviser to the US president – he took over the role from Henry Kissinger. Sitting alongside Scowcroft of the international board is his fellow geo-strategist, Zbigniew Brzezinski, who succeeded him as the national security adviser, and Peter Sutherland, the chairman of Goldman Sachs International. So, as early as 2005, we've got a senior wing of the western intelligence/banking establishment selecting Kodmani to run a Middle East research project. In September of that year, Kodmani was made full-time director of the programme. Earlier in 2005, the CFR assigned "financial oversight" of the project to the Centre for European Reform (CER). In come the British.

The CER is overseen by Lord Kerr, the deputy chairman of Royal Dutch Shell. Kerr is a former head of the diplomatic service and is a senior adviser at Chatham House (a thinktank showcasing the best brains of the British diplomatic establishment).

In charge of the CER on a day-to-day basis is Charles Grant, former defence editor of the Economist, and these days a member of the European Council on Foreign Relations, a "pan-European thinktank" packed with diplomats, industrialists, professors and prime ministers. On its list of members you'll find the name: "Bassma Kodmani (France/Syria) – Executive Director, Arab Reform Initiative".

Another name on the list: George Soros – the financier whose non-profit "Open Society Foundation" is a primary funding source of the ECFR. At this level, the worlds of banking, diplomacy, industry, intelligence and the various policy institutes and foundations all mesh together, and there, in the middle of it all, is Kodmani.

The point is, Kodmani is not some random "pro-democracy activist" who happens to have found herself in front of a microphone. She has impeccable international diplomacy credentials: she holds the position of research director at the Académie Diplomatique Internationale – "an independent and neutral institution dedicated to promoting modern diplomacy". The Académie is headed by Jean-Claude Cousseran, a former head of the DGSE – the French foreign intelligence service.

A picture is emerging of Kodmani as a trusted lieutenant of the Anglo-American democracy-promotion industry. Her "province of origin" (according to the SNC website) is Damascus, but she has close and long-standing professional relationships with precisely those powers she's calling upon to intervene in Syria.

And many of her spokesmen colleagues are equally well-connected.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 14 Jul 2012 10:32
by Klaus
X-posting from GDF

Ralph Peters geopolitical map of the Middle East is being given a legitimacy through this report on Resource Distribution. Resource Distribution in a New Middle East

It is a wonder as to how the US Geological Society is also used to provide data for the Anglo-Saxon think-tanks. The advisor is a high school academic, it shows how deep the culture of critical thinking for the interests of one's own MIC goes.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 15 Jul 2012 01:37
by chanakyaa
Above two posts are terrific. It really takes a handful of smart people to control the masses. ...will Pootin put an end to this or at least slow it down?

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 15 Jul 2012 03:02
by KLNMurthy
Klaus wrote:X-posting from GDF

Ralph Peters geopolitical map of the Middle East is being given a legitimacy through this report on Resource Distribution. Resource Distribution in a New Middle East

It is a wonder as to how the US Geological Society is also used to provide data for the Anglo-Saxon think-tanks. The advisor is a high school academic, it shows how deep the culture of critical thinking for the interests of one's own MIC goes.
Am I missing something or petroleum is not included among resources?

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 15 Jul 2012 07:12
by Klaus
KLNMurthy wrote: Am I missing something or petroleum is not included among resources?
Perhaps they are running with the Peak Oil projection made in 2007. Perhaps they envisage the geopolitical situation changing quicker if the oil fields dried up, i.e the desired end state (Ralph Peters map) achieved earlier in an oil depleted ME.

There is also an elementary psy-ops value to it, the West can coerce the ME masses to accept the new states and thus face up to the new reality better.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 15 Jul 2012 11:15
by arun
X Posted from the Islamic Sectarianism thread.

The oppression of adherents of the minority Shia Mohammadden sect by the majority adherents of the Sunni sect of Mohammaddenism in Saudi Barbaria brings a rare rebuke from Russia.

Interfax quotes Konstantin Dolgov, the Russian Foreign Ministry's envoy for Human Rights as saying "We hope that the authorities of the kingdom will take all of the measures needed to normalize the situation in its eastern districts, prevent any confrontation there, including interfaith clashes, and guarantee the observance of generally accepted human rights, including the right to freedom of expression, peaceful demonstrations and freedom of assembly as permitted by the law,"

Read it all:

Russia hopes Saudi leaders will prevent religious confrontation in eastern districts


Predictably the Saudi Barbarians are rather upset with the Russians:

Saudi Arabia condemns Russia’s “hostile” comments on human rights

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 15 Jul 2012 16:05
by shyamd
GCC asks Egypt to join the GCC

---------------------------
Jundal had one Pak, 3 Saudi Arabian SIMs
Had multiple email IDs; each meant for specific persons
Shaurya Karanbir Gurung
Tribune News Service

New Delhi, July 5
Terror mastermind Sayed Zabiuddin Ansari, alias Abu Jundal, used multiple email IDs and SIM cards, each meant to communicate only with specific persons.

Jundal’s pan-India network of sleeper agents and modules in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are being slowly unearthed as sleuths have fanned out across the country to follow up on leads emerging from his interrogation. He had also set up a new module of the Indian Mujahideen (IM).

A special cell of the Delhi Police has found that Jundal had been using nine email IDs and four SIM cards (one from Pakistan and three from Saudi Arabia). “Call details in respect of various SIM cards have been obtained through diplomatic channels and the same are being analysed. The mirror images, a technical term for call details available on SIM cards, have been converted into DVDs and are being analysed,” the special cell told Chief Metropolitan Magistrate Vinod Yadav today.

The magistrate extended the police remand of Jundal and allowed the Delhi Police to retain him till July 20. The claims of the National Investigation Agency and the ATS, Mumbai, seeking his custody were turned down.

Investigators are now clear that Jundal was part of a larger conspiracy and he is in knowledge of several plots and plans being hatched by Pakistan-based terror groups under the Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT).

The Delhi Police has dispatched special teams to various places in India to gather further information. Jundal had been running several small modules. Just ahead of the 2010 Commonwealth Games in New Delhi, he arranged for the shootout at Jama Masjid. A motorcycle-borne youth had fired at a bus carrying foreign tourists. Shooter Mohd Adil, a Pakistani youth, was arrested in November last year. He had named Jundal as the key member.

The Delhi Police told the court, “Information gathered from Jundal needs to be analysed in a centralised manner with a view to establish his links with other invisible handlers of the LeT and the IM.”

The probe

n Call details of various SIMs have been obtained and are being analysed

n It is also being established how he managed to collect a big haul of weapons

n He is in the know of several plots being hatched by Pak-based terror groups

n His police remand has been extended till July 20
Interesting KSA has been handing over more evidence to support the case against Jundal.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 15 Jul 2012 20:10
by Surya
The Turks look like fools now and not sure what internal struggle is causing this.

As for war last Sept there were predictions of 2 weeks and red lines :mrgreen:

then more recently 48 hrs and so on.

I think most sensible countries know modern war will drag your economy down even if you are a hyperpower let alone a developing economy.

Turkey tried to drag NATO in and failed and probably reinforced the European boys mindset why it should be kept out of full EU membership

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 15 Jul 2012 23:35
by Johann
Pranav wrote:The Syrian opposition: who's doing the talking? - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... he-talking

This article from the Guardian takes a deeper look into the backgrounds of many of the Syrian opposition figures. Here is a an excerpt about the SNC's most senior spokesperson Bassma Kodmani.

---------------------
The only problem with this article is that it fails to address how utterly irrelevant the SNC is to what is going on *inside* Syria.

The Local Coordinating Committees (LCC) and the Free Syrian Army (FSA) battalions are the ones driving the Syrian civil opposition and armed resistance respectively.

The SNC's formation is a reflection of the Turkish, Gulf and Western desire to be able to shape events by creating an umbrella group. The SNC as is typical of these efforts is totally disconnected from the people on the ground, and represents little more than itself. It can't even do that particularly well given the fact that its terribly divided.

These guys are going to be despised by the hundreds of thousands of those who are working well together to carry out the actual protesting, fighting, reporting, network building and passive resistance etc on the ground while SNC types shuttle around to bickerat conferences in expensive hotels, making zero difference to the outcome.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 16 Jul 2012 04:31
by shyamd
Protests and battles took place inside Damascus today.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 16 Jul 2012 05:13
by Philip
Now a "Civil War" ,IRC.Above posts have shown how the entire Arab Spring has been a sinister plot by vested western entities with their own agenda.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... Cross.html
Syrian conflict declared a civil war by the Red Cross
The conflict in Syria was effectively declared a civil war by the Red Cross on Sunday, as the "most intense" fighting since the start of the uprising was reported in Damascus.

By Adrian Blomfield, Middle East Correspondent and Alex Spillius
15 Jul 2012

The Red Cross had previously designated Idlib, Homs and Hama as war zones, but the change in status means international humanitarian law applies wherever fighting occurs throughout the country

Combatants will now be officially subject to the Geneva Conventions, and will be more exposed to war crimes prosecutions, after the ICRC declared that the conflict was a "non-international armed conflict", or in lay terms a civil war.

Sean Maguire, a spokesman for the ICRC, said that both sides would be reminded of their obligations "to protect civilians from fighting, treat the wounded and sick without discrimination".

The categorisation was made after the ICRC determined that the armed opposition to Bashar al-Assad's regime had reached a sufficient level of organisation and capability.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reported heavy clashes in the capital in what was described as the "most intense" fighting there since the start of the anti-regime revolt in Syria.

"The regular army fired mortar rounds into several suburbs" where rebels of the Free Syrian Army are entrenched, said Rami Abdel Rahman, head of the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights. "They have never been this intense."

Kofi Annan, the international envoy of Syria, and Ban Ki-Moon, the UN secretary general, set off on a trip to Russia and China on Monday in a bid to persuade them to back tougher action against Bashar al-Assad, the Syrian president, but hopes for a breakthrough are slender.

The Syrian government went on the offensive yesterday by attempting to claim a propaganda victory after UN observers called into question opposition claims of a civilian massacre in the village of Tremseh.

Local activists had accused regime forces of slaughtering as many as 220 civilians in what would have been the worst massacre of the 16-month uprising against Mr Assad.

Although a team of monitors that reached the scene encountered scenes of heavy destruction and found evidence of mass fatalities, they concluded that the vast majority of the dead were rebels or opposition activists.

Their findings were swiftly trumpeted by the Assad regime, which accused Western leaders and Mr Annan of rushing to draw fallacious conclusions.

But while the observers' report suggested that the government's narrative was closer to reality than the opposition's, the events that unfolded in Tremseh last Thursday remain murky.

Nor was the regime's position entirely vindicated. The UN stood by its accusation that government forces had used tanks and helicopter gunships in breach of a pledge made by Mr Assad a week ago not to use heavy weapons.

Reaching the village 48 hours after the killings, the observers spoke of encountering scenes of devastation and seeing chilling traces of the ferocity of the government's onslaught amid the ruins.

"There were pools of blood and blood spatters in rooms of several homes together with bullet cases," said Sausan Ghosheh, a spokesman for the monitoring team.

"A wide range of weapons were used, including artillery, mortars and small arms."

The findings appeared to suggest that a number of the victims were shot at close range, echoing opposition claims of execution-style killings carried out by the pro-Assad Shabiha militia, whose ranks are largely drawn from president's Alawite minority.

But the observers also reported that the attack appeared to target "specific groups and houses, mainly of army defectors and activists" -- a significant departure from the narrative of some opposition activists.

Tremseh lies along the same sectarian fault line as two other Sunni villages – Howl and Qubeir – whose inhabitants were allegedly massacred by army soldiers and militiamen from surrounding Alawite communities.

In both cases, photographic evidence was produced to show a large number of women and children among the dead. But video footage from Tremseh indicated that nearly all the dead were men of fighting age.

If, as now seems likely, the killings were the result of a lopsided battle, they would represent one of the most catastrophic rebel defeats of the campaign.

Opposition sources conceded that most of the dead were fighters and confirmed that the battle had been triggered by a rebel ambush on an army convoy.

But they claimed that few of the dead were formal rebels, saying that most were male inhabitants of the village who had taken up arms to prevent an Alawite attempt to "cleanse" Tremseh.

Lacking the sophisticated communications equipment that most rebels in the Free Syrian Army have, the rebels were unable to call for reinforcements resulting in a heavily one-sided battle, one activist said.

The death toll remained in dispute, with the government saying that 37 opposition fighters and two civilians were killed. Opposition activists said that between 100 and 150 died, but conceded that they only knew of "at least seven" civilian fatalities.

Presented with a rare opportunity to portray itself as misrepresented, the Syrian government launched a public relations offensive to absolve itself of guilt.

"What happened in Tremseh was a military operation, not as massacre," Jihad Makdissi, the Syrian foreign ministry's spokesman, told a press conference."

He also furiously denounced a letter written by Mr Annan to the United Nations Security Council that urged members to unite in action against the regime for its use of heavy weaponry in Tremseh. A similarly worded letter was sent to the Syrian foreign ministry.

"The least that can be said about this letter about what happened in Tremseh is that it did not rely on facts," Mr Makdissi said. "As diplomatically as possible, we say that this letter was very rushed."

The dispute over Tremseh is likely to complicate international efforts to resolve the Syrian crisis, with Russia almost certain to seize on it as evidence that the opposition, rather than the regime, is responsible for most of the bloodshed.

The mandate for the 300-man observer mission to Syria is due to expire on Friday with no sign of an end to international divisions.

Russia wants the mandate to be renewed for a further three months. But it is resisting Western efforts to bolster it with a Security Council resolution threatening the Assad regime with sanctions if it fails to take steps to end the violence and form a transitional government with the opposition.

Meanwhile, the president of Syria's main opposition group, the Syrian National Council, stepped up pressure on America to take action by accusing President Barack Obama of stalling so as not to jeopardise his November re-election prospects.

"We cannot understand that a superpower ignores the killing of tens of thousands of Syrian civilians because of an election campaign that a president may win or lose," Abdelbasset Sayda told CNN.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 16 Jul 2012 06:10
by Philip
Iraq war will haunt west, says Briton who advised US military
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ju ... s-military

Exclusive: Emma Sky – British civilian who advised US commanders in Iraq – says Muslim world sees a war on Islam

Read part one of our exclusive interview with Emma Sky

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 16 Jul 2012 08:45
by ramana
What advice did she give the US military in Iraq that now she laments on Muslim point of view?

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 16 Jul 2012 11:03
by Austin
What are the chances that Syria might be broken into Alwaites and Sunni nation , where Alwaite , Christians ,Shiah and others can have their own niche and Sunni majority would have their own.

I suspect most Alwaites , Shiah and Christian wont be too happy to be under Sunni majority led nation where it might be another Saudi Barbaria type ruler ruling over Syria with backing from West but under guise of democracy

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 16 Jul 2012 11:16
by Pranav
Johann wrote: The only problem with this article is that it fails to address how utterly irrelevant the SNC is to what is going on *inside* Syria.

The Local Coordinating Committees (LCC) and the Free Syrian Army (FSA) battalions are the ones driving the Syrian civil opposition and armed resistance respectively.
US facilitating arms flow to Syrian rebels - http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/7389

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 16 Jul 2012 11:35
by Johann
Pranav wrote:
Johann wrote: The only problem with this article is that it fails to address how utterly irrelevant the SNC is to what is going on *inside* Syria.

The Local Coordinating Committees (LCC) and the Free Syrian Army (FSA) battalions are the ones driving the Syrian civil opposition and armed resistance respectively.
US facilitating arms flow to Syrian rebels - http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/7389
As I was saying - the SNC is not relevant. They are not the ones on the ground, nor are they the leadership of the movement.

The West on one side, and Turkey and the Gulf on the other are trying to coordinate, but they're having a difficult time because their Syrian friends on the ground are not always the same kinds of people, and their preferences for a post-Assad future are not the same.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 16 Jul 2012 11:43
by Johann
Austin wrote:What are the chances that Syria might be broken into Alwaites and Sunni nation , where Alwaite , Christians ,Shiah and others can have their own niche and Sunni majority would have their own.

I suspect most Alwaites , Shiah and Christian wont be too happy to be under Sunni majority led nation where it might be another Saudi Barbaria type ruler ruling over Syria with backing from West but under guise of democracy
Lebanon remained one country, despite 15 years of on and off communal civil war and multiple Syrian and Israeli invasions and disenfranchised sections of the population that never believed in the idea of Lebanon. Syrian nationalism if anything runs much deeper than Lebanese nationalism.

The Maronites, the Palestinians and the Shia all tried to dominate Lebanon and failed - the political compromises that emerged after came out of the realisation that no one group could dominate the country.

Syria will probably experience similar spasms. But between religious minorities, sectarian minorities, the Kurds, secular/liberal Sunnis, Syria's Sunni population will learn the hard way if they try to monopolise power.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 16 Jul 2012 11:58
by Johann
Philip wrote:Above posts have shown how the entire Arab Spring has been a sinister plot by vested western entities with their own agenda.
Philip are you serious?! This is like dismissing the Iranian Revolution as a Soviet plot, or the Soviet revolution as a German plot.

Have you even talked to any ordinary Tunisians, Egyptians and Syrians in the last year? How about Bahrainis and Yemenis?

The most important reason that these things are happening is because millions of people found living under corrupt police states that sold out their revolutionary promise years back to be intolerable.

Technology has undermined, and is undermining systems where state power comes from the power to silence people. People just aren't as scared of the Mukhabarat anymore. That is the *real* revolution of the Arab Spring.

Whatever or however the political system in the Arab republics change, they will have to govern through consensus rather than fiat.

As for Syria ask yourself why a family like the Tlasses - members of the Baath Party Politburo - people who stood by the Assads for 40+ years, through the ups and downs of the 1975-82 uprising, wars with Israel, confrontation with America etc have abandoned them now?

Not even Saddam's supporters within the Iraqi Baath Party did anything of the sort.

You think you can explain that as a 'sinister plot by vested western entities'?

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 16 Jul 2012 16:09
by Austin