Indian Education System

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 26 Jun 2009 11:06

Its not just about passing the 10th or 12th standard. Its about your future, its about what choices you can make after passing these board exams. Try getting a science seat in a top school by getting 33/100 or 40/100.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 26 Jun 2009 11:08

krishnan wrote:Try getting a science seat in a top school by getting 33/100 or 40/100.

Aside from the argument that in India it is like this onlee, think about it for a momemt....what will getting a science seat in a top school get the kid in the end?

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 26 Jun 2009 11:16

krishnan wrote:Try getting a science seat in a top school by getting 33/100 or 40/100.

Folks need to distinguish their individual parenting worries from the broad scope of what the GoI is shooting for. Middle middle-class (and upwards) folks will do fine irrespective of GoI policies, even if they dont end up with a science seat, and I make that statement with a lot of cynicism. Its those whose voices are unheard now who are going to be left in the lurch. And their voices will never be heard till GoI is honest not only in terms of making that statement on the gazette, but in ensuring that the spirit gets translated with a lathi to the implementer of the day. And the lathi-wielder changes with the day, and that is a huge leaky bucket....

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 26 Jun 2009 11:24

I personally think that what Shiv says is right "we have exams without learning" -- but I have still not figured out what purpose giving up on the X exam serves. We will now have "no learning and no exams" is that better some how? Might as well not have the pretense of exam if there is no learning and all that?

May be, may not be since after all exams do act as a single barometer of learning for better or for worse.

So personally I still don't see any big deal about exams being there or not -- if not at 15 the folks will hit the exam barrier at 17 and this time without any idea of what the "common" exam looks like.

As long as the basic thinking about exams and learning does not change, I for one cant see what does X standard exams have to do.

------------

Shiv; actually using your own logic -- the newer system is biased even more deeply biased towards the card carrying members of the elite. This seems like some thing a dilli billi would want.

In the hinterland, where X used to be a meaningful checkpoint after whose results folks would branch out and do diploma (ITI) like courses, join GoI for various streams (X is usually the basic education required for most jobs, including soldiers) and where most people quit "school" after Xth to go to "college" for +2 type education, this move has no meaning.

So I would actually argue that this move is quite pointless for 75% people who will need X results anyway. Of the remaining 25% I bet my 4000 Rs shoes that 90% of these would anyway want to take the test to "prepare" for the board exams anyway and will be encouraged to do that by the very schools.

The only people who will benefit are fat cat schools which now have the needed excuse to not bother with hard data like marks while promoting kids to the branches in the schools whose parents can pay their way for.

added later -- yes the other people who will benefit are the useless state boards who dont have to "show" for what they are delivering.

------------

To my mind this move is irrelevant at best and mildly harmful at worst -- however I am willing to be told why this is a good idea.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 26 Jun 2009 11:25

vera_k wrote:
Sachin wrote: States will not have their own educational boards. This I feel can be grossly misused.
The Hindootva fanatic in me was drooling over this. Why are you letting the cat out of the bag ?

It cuts both ways, and I am unhopeful of us maniac Hindutvadis coming to power at that level soon.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 26 Jun 2009 11:55

Our education system has to deal with two problems:

1. destressing the edu system, easing pressure off the students right from jr classes to class 12th, enough time for participation in music/cricket/ecc to build a good personality, bring colour in life, right now there is too much stress at every level this is mostly counterproductive

2. Ensuring jobs after a degree, this could be only class 12th pass, Bsc pass or a PhD.

right now it is ek anaar sau bimar out there.

excellent write up RayC saar. I share an experience withy ou. I was blessed to have qualified All India level entrances a couple of times in my life in my profession. Only latter I realised when doing MD that what we need are good basic knowledge and and not end up mugging even the foot note since it might get asked in entrance.

In UK I saw the general standard of specialists in medicine is better than ours, While on one hand we have quota system etc, the over all blame also lies on our way of teaching and reading. In UK I saw they read small books, do not time spend unnecessarily in preparing for exams, and focus on developing a braod and basic knowledge first.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 26 Jun 2009 12:19

IndraD wrote:2. Ensuring jobs after a degree, this could be only class 12th pass, Bsc pass or a PhD.

This is a fundamentally flawed thinking as a result of our system. The purpose of education should be to
1) Learn about fundamentals of life
2) Provide skills to be useful in life.

The way to see education to give a job and that too after 12th is what is killing us. We need to enable people to be productive and employable (either self or with others) right after X levels.

We need to upgrade the skills of our workers, farmers, soldiers etc etc...

There is too much narrow focus on education == graduation.

----------

PS> I dont blame our educational system -- I blame our culture -- CBSE/NCERT books are some of the best written and best systematic effort out there. Yet people turn them into rote study.

------------

In UK I saw the general standard of specialists in medicine is better than ours,

that is because our best are over there. Why is this a surprise? Education system has the least role to play in this.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 26 Jun 2009 12:24

shaardula wrote:yashpalcommitteereport.pdf

My god, this is a bloody minefield!! There is tons here that in the hands of a motivated "political" system can change the fundamental approach of India and Indians to life itself.

This has enough material to ensure a Nehurivan re-education program like we saw in the 60s or completely liberate India from its previous shackles -- it would be interesting to see where this effort ends up.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 26 Jun 2009 12:26

geeth wrote:Take the case of my son who is in 12th std now.

This post takes me back down the memory line

. Our school affiliated with the ICSE syllabus used to follow the practise in exactly similar lines. The planning and the drill would even put some of our Army generals to shame

.

For 10th and the 12th standard students, their summer vacations was cut down by one month. Extra classes would begin in the month of may. By July or August they would complete all the chapters. Periods for PT and Games would be cancelled.

Then comes a battery of model exams. Every day is an exam day. And this would be based on 2-3 chapters of each subject. This would go on till Novemeber, December. By the end of this excercise every single question on every single chapter would be memorised by the student (or rather drilled into his head). If students are identified as "weak" in any of the subjects, out comes extra classes after school hours.

Then you have a kind of "Master model exam", which is pretty much a sample of the questions which we would be getting for the actual exam.

The best part was the practical exams for Physics,Chemistry and Biology. 2 months before the board exam, the school gets an instruction as to what equipments/chemicals should be kept ready. One of them would be used during the actual exams. Another drill begins, which is to memorize every single test to successfully conclude the practical experiments. Students would know by heart what are the steps to be done, what are the expected results and what can be inferred.

With these kind of a system it would be surprising if any one actually flunked the exams. The students passed, the school got 100% results and every one was happy.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 26 Jun 2009 12:28

Dear sanku. In every system/population there would be people who wouldn't go past class 12th /Bachelor's degree etc and all of them have a right to live and being employed in system acc to employbility .

The reason for specialists in UK being better is strict regulatory body in the form of Royal Colleges and structured training to become consultants. Here we have doctors who are passed at final MBBS prof because they have been there since 3 years, this will not happen in FRCR exam of radiology I assure.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 26 Jun 2009 12:34

IndraD wrote:Dear sanku. In every system/population there would be people who wouldn't go past class 12th /Bachelor's degree etc and all of them have a right to live and being employed in system acc to employbility .

The reason for specialists in UK being better is strict regulatory body in the form of Royal Colleges and structured training to become consultants. Here we have doctors who are passed at final MBBS prof because they have been there since 3 years, this will not happen in FRCR exam of radiology I assure.

The way Indian society is today 90% of the people do not need to go beyond X standard and should still be employable and productive!! (12 is in my opinion already an overkill)

Sir with tons of brothers, sisters and cousins who are doctors in UK I know the standards of UK medicine very well. The first generation of my family who became doctors in UK was in 70s. Arent you comparing apples and oranges when you compare a doctor MBBS with a specialist?

If you need to talk about a specialist -- compare an MD from an Indian institute to what is in UK. By what I know at each level Indian doctors are far better (host of reasons), barring the "modern" donation colleges.

Its just that by the time a doctor has enough exp to be a specialist (35 year old at least) he is already out side the country.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 26 Jun 2009 13:00

All I understand of education is that it gives me the instrument to think, analyse and innovate and not be a cow reguritating cud!

And NOT with some mechanism that tells me and my parents how good I am at reguritating it!

I want to be a person who has an independent mind that can think and innovate, using the knowledge base.

We complain about the BABU culture. Why should we? We encourage it from childhood!

Rules and Law are there. But it also require interpretation. Sadly, interpretation is alien to our education system and psyche. Lakir ke fakir as they say!

Mug away as if memorising and reguritating is the last word in education!

And then we complain that the DRDO is not doing enough! Bookish knowledge is not all that is to education!

Many a bookish and 'brilliant' officers (take Kargil) on the way to starry heights failed. Why? They had no idea of application or imagination!

And, yet at the same time, many an imaginative and innovative officer were left by the roadside because they did not have the adequate 'qualfications'.

Seen it in real life in situtation in life and death. Degrees and qualfication on paper is not material. Application is!

I am sure that in civil life, the same applies!

I am reminded of my uncle, a renowned historican of ancient Indian history (Raman would vouch for this) and an expert in Pali, said of a relative with a whole lot of degree - Porua Patha (Educatd Goat)!

Application matters, not degrees alone!

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 26 Jun 2009 14:08

Gujarat first to welcome, Left sees a conspiracy
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/gujar ... cy/481524/

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 26 Jun 2009 15:32

Jamal K. Malik wrote:Gujarat first to welcome, Left sees a conspiracy

If you read the report carefully we can note that the Gujarath Govt. and the Leftists are speaking about two totally different aspects.

Gujarath Govt. is all fine with abolishing the Class X exam. They said that they would support the idea.
Leftists are worried about Central Govt. deciding what the whole nation should sit and study. This is Central Govt. meddling with the educational plans at each state level. I guess Leftists (for a change) have some valid points here. In my opinion a central government will not be able to give adequate attention to every state's unique character, its language and its own history. The state education board is the best to deal with this. Secondly using this concept the ruling Central Govt. of the day can virtually brainwash the students of the nation at one shot (with its own idealogies). If things become worse, this can even become like the "national language" related problems the country faced decades back.

BTW, in Kerala they have already introduced a grading system at the 10th Std. level, rather than going by the percentage marks. This was based on the Prof. Yashpal Committee findings.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 26 Jun 2009 17:13

Sanku wrote:Sir with tons of brothers, sisters and cousins who are doctors in UK I know the standards of UK medicine very well. The first generation of my family who became doctors in UK was in 70s. Arent you comparing apples and oranges when you compare a doctor MBBS with a specialist?

If you need to talk about a specialist -- compare an MD from an Indian institute to what is in UK. By what I know at each level Indian doctors are far better (host of reasons), barring the "modern" donation colleges..

Yes UK's MBBS teaching is not up to the mark and that is one reason why they don't have good GPs. But they makt it up in specialist training, UK has a uniform standard of training, central body of examination and structured training (CCST) making their average specialists better than our average specialists. MBBS was an example dear sanku, even in MD training I had guys who were passed because they were connected or had spent quite some time in the hospital, professors knew they wouldn't improve even if trained for 5 more years, most of them were from reserved category, here we dilute the standard. Our products from AIIMS, JIPMER ect are very good but what about state run medical colleges..? The training (if any) is atrocious. There is no uniform standard.

Abhijeet · Post by **Abhijeet** » 26 Jun 2009 17:17

I think any attempt to make exams less frightening for children in India is doomed to failure as long as there are so few high quality destinations for students. In other words, unless there is a large set of good colleges in the country to consume the students that schools pass out, there will always be the mad rush to get into the elite colleges, by any means necessary.

The government should start at the other end, by increasing massively the number of colleges and universities in India, and see how the pressure at the filtering end - the exams - reduces automatically.

I applaud any attempt to reduce the number of stupid exams that students have to go through, but it is the wrong angle of attack IMO.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 26 Jun 2009 17:45

Abhijeet wrote:I think any attempt to make exams less frightening for children in India is doomed to failure as long as there are so few high quality destinations for students.

May be other Mallus like Dileep can confirm this. In recent years Kerala Govt. have freaked out on a scheme known as 'moderation'. This scheme is basically giving away free marks and some how ensure that the student passes Class 10th. The free marks kept on increasing, more students passed out and also gave a chance of the govt. to thump their chests and say "education has improved under us, see the pass percentage".

What happened was that there was a large rush of students to Plus 2 (in earlier days Pre-Degree), which had very limited number of seats. Concepts like reservations etc., reduced the seats in open-merit even further, and finally lots of good students dropped out. They had to resort to the "parallel colleges"

(i.e studying private).

This year I heard that for SSLC exams (Class 10) orders were that some marks would be given even for attempting to give an answer. Writing down the question, or noting the question number was considered as a genuine attempt

.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jun 2009 17:48

I think that one can take it for granted with the "Indian way of life" that all parents will do their utmost to ensure that their kids get right on top of any system that is designed. That is a given.

For that reason any system should be designed to impart knowledge and get the child to think, rather than allow a third party (parent/tuition master) to hack the system. Typically what happens in India is that those who hack the system get praised as "the best" . Fine. praise is always good. What is bad is that the others, who have not managed to hack the system, neither have education, and are discarded as useless candidates. At age 15 this is a disaster.

For example a child wants to do medicine and earns 86% marks in Class X in SSLC Karnataka. He is refused a seat in a college with biology because he is not good enough and the "cutoff" is 95%. This is a good two years before anyone of his age group can even sit for an medical entrance test. The child is eliminated on his class X score and will not even have a chance to try the entrance exam 2 years later because he is "debarred" from learning biology for the next 2 years. This has got to be the most ridiculous system in the solar system.

All children should be given a chance to take any combination of subjects right up to class XII and take a shot at entrance tests of his choice after that. But the system eliminates a lot of kids on the class X marks and many of those kids could be better than those who happen to do well in Class X.

The class X exam is a "hackable exam" of learning by rote. Those with endurance and some ability do well, but many with great ability do not do well. Education should seek to impart knowledge into everyone, and not eliminate the majority of people on whom it considered is "not worth it" wasting education.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 26 Jun 2009 17:57

Indian MBAs face dismal job market

This year the average salary across top tier B-schools is down 25%, wiping out the record 20%-to-22% salary gains students made last year.

"Students who saw MBA admissions as the ticket to good jobs have started questioning the return on investment, perhaps for the first time in several decades," Kumar said in an e-mail.

Exactly. And ROI is the key to the coming bursting of the higher ed bubble, IMO. If the current crisis doesn't ease in the next 2-3 yrs (and it likely won't at least in the job-creation sense), expect the higher ed bubble to implode.

Admissions officers at top U.S. B-schools report applications from Indians are down this year, with many worried about obtaining student loans and H1-B visas, as well as the strict hiring restrictions on any companies receiving federal bailout funds under the Troubled Assets Relief Program. Meanwhile, the growing reputation of top-tier Indian business schools like the IIMs is making them a viable option for Indians who otherwise might have chosen to shell out $100,000 or more for a brand-name U.S. degree.

Good move. Taking a hefty loan to pay for a khan edu in this clime is lunacy. Keep that money in india, better.

Jobscene for desi MBAs in the khanate is dismal at best. The entire edifice of Finance and wall street has vanished. 40% of a typical MBA class is finance focussed and now they're out poaching boor mktg jobs onlee. And wall st wont be hiring for yrs to come. Anyway oversupply of experienced laid off finance professionals is rife.

At many business schools, career placement officers anticipate the hiring season will continue long after graduation, extending into the summer and perhaps beyond.

Even top-tier schools like the Indian School of Business in Hyderabad have extended their job placement season indefinitely because only 57% of students have found jobs, according to an Apr. 2 report in the Business Standard, one of India's leading business newspapers. The school has not yet released its official placement numbers, according to the MBA Universe report. A spokeswoman from the Indian School of Business did not return several e-mails seeking comment about placement results.

Moi had high hopes for the ISB model in yindia. Lezhope ISB wil still bounce back in the days ahead.

The best international offer at any of the IIMs came from the Indian Institute of Management Calcutta, where the highest salary topped out at $86,785. At the Indian Institute of Management Ahmedabad, the highest international offer was $83,000, down from last year's peak of $280,000 to $360,000. Meanwhile, schools outside the top 20 are facing an even harder time placing students, Kumar said.

The drop in top USD sals at the IIMs is classical bubble burst scenario. Cliffdiving when plotted.

With fewer financial firms and consulting groups hiring, students are turning to other sectors for jobs, most notably government-owned corporations known as public-sector undertakings. Students are accepting positions in the oil and energy, insurance, and telecom sectors at companies such as Bank of Baroda (BKBAF.PK), Steel Authority of India Limited (LAUF), and Bharat Heavy Electricals ( BHHEF.PK). Hiring in this area accounts for 15% of all offers this year, up from just 5% last year, the report says.

Return of the prodigal PSU to the top tier B-schools. Silver lining in this storm.

negi · Post by **negi** » 26 Jun 2009 20:07

shiv wrote:I think that one can take it for granted with the "Indian way of life" that all parents will do their utmost to ensure that their kids get right on top of any system that is designed. That is a given.

Yes and nothing wrong with it ...how they go about it perhaps makes all the difference.

For that reason any system should be designed to impart knowledge and get the child to think, rather than allow a third party (parent/tuition master) to hack the system.

Every system will be hacked period...as long as the stakes involved with child's education will be high there would be competition and the tution shops will continue to prosper.

Typically what happens in India is that those who hack the system get praised as "the best" . Fine. praise is always good. What is bad is that the others, who have not managed to hack the system, neither have education, and are discarded as useless candidates. At age 15 this is a disaster.For example a child wants to do medicine and earns 86% marks in Class X in SSLC Karnataka. He is refused a seat in a college with biology because he is not good enough and the "cutoff" is 95%.

Well couple of things the figure of 86% is specific to a particular school/college , but did you check despite having such a cut off if the classes are upto FULL CAPACITY ?
I hope we all realize that cutoffs are decided by the INTAKE CAPACITY for a particular branch/stream.

Now if someone gives me an example of a person who scored 50% in Xth and did very well to become a Doctor , or someone who missed out on IIT but did go to one of the top ten Utys in USA for MS then are we supposed to conclude that our system has failed ?

Again it is not because folks in our edu system are evil and they wish to deny kids of education the sheer competition has driven these cut offs to insanely high limit; now if it is this competition which is cause of bother (which is what Xth boards are all about) then its a diff topic.

All children should be given a chance to take any combination of subjects right up to class XII and take a shot at entrance tests of his choice after that. But the system eliminates a lot of kids on the class X marks and many of those kids could be better than those who happen to do well in Class X.

I am all up for it however how will you address the following ?

1. Indian parents who only wish to see their kid becoming a doctor/engg : 95% of the parents will pressurize their kids to take up only Science (PCM and B both

) after their Xth std and trust be there is not much a 15 year old can do against his/her parents will. This apart there is huge peer pressure to belong to a chi chi group of so called 'fundu science students' .

2. All the pressure/strain which was relieved by removing the Xth class board exam will now merely be on the XIIth class exams for at the end there are only 'X' amount of seats for 'Y' number of students (in India's case Y is far too high in number than 'X').

The class X exam is a "hackable exam" of learning by rote. Those with endurance and some ability do well, but many with great ability do not do well. Education should seek to impart knowledge into everyone, and not eliminate the majority of people on whom it considered is "not worth it" wasting education.

All the exams are 'hackable' ..even the Olympiads and JEE exams been hacked (as per your definition). No one cracks the JEE without preparation (solving an exhaustive set of problems which might come for the exam within a given time frame).

All in all I am all up for change but lets first have a look at the alternatives proposed rather than just an announcement of 'No Board Exams' .

manish · Post by **manish** » 26 Jun 2009 20:20

vsudhir wrote:Indian MBAs face dismal job market

Return of the prodigal PSU to the top tier B-schools. Silver lining in this storm.

vsudhir gaaru, I am not too sure how this will pan out for both the PSUs as well as the students involved. Some of the PSU banks reportedly hired IIM-A types for as low as 4.5 lpa. Whether the cos will be able to retain them or not once the tide turns remains to be seen. An exodus of talent at the higher levels certainly can't bode well for any org. But I guess the PSUs can make hay while the sun shines

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 26 Jun 2009 21:41

This place is such a whine fest. Sibal-saab has not banned IIT-JEE, various sundry entrance exams for the desperately sought engg or medical educations to be carried by the victors as their badge of honour for a lifetime. So why are people having such anxieties. Your kids will still have to take an exam to get in to these prestigious colleges, laze through the years and get out as mediocre as they were when they got in with their All India ranks.

Nothing has changed largely, except that the irrelevant Xth std exams are now not a cause for celebration or despair. Your kids still have to struggle to get a foot hold for higher education. If you like to see them struggle and prove themselves to you and the world the option still exists.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 26 Jun 2009 21:55

IMHO, the most important point in Kapil Sibal's speech that is more crucial than doing away Std. X exams is the allowance of foreign educational institutions into India and accepting the fact that a profit can be made by these entities.

India's current problems of high cut offs are purely due to demand and supply where the supply of institutions is artificially restricted to satisfy ideological whims of the elites. Needless to say, the same elites are not affected since they send their children abroad anyway...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Jun 2009 22:00

Why can't we have JUST ONE ENTRANCE EXAM at an all India level Like the GRE / GMAT and use the score for all admissions?

the problem with that is if a student has one bad day, (for whatever reasons, illness, lack of transport, minor accident or just plain and simple nervousness) his/her career is doomed by a year.

best of luck to your son !

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 26 Jun 2009 22:06

Rahul M wrote:the problem with that is if a student has one bad day, (for whatever reasons, illness, lack of transport, minor accident or just plain and simple nervousness) his/her career is doomed by a year.

If it was implemented like the GRE/GMAT, the student can walk in the next month and retake the exam to get a better score. That should take care of the concerns around having a bad day.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Jun 2009 22:20

I get a feeling that's where all this will lead to.

negi · Post by **negi** » 26 Jun 2009 22:26

So why are people having such anxieties.
No one is anxious saar, merely an analysis of whether the move will achieve what it is meant to .

Btw is it only me.. I hear Obama talk about need for Amriki junta to take a leaf out of evil SDREs and take personal interest in child's edu ?

negi · Post by **negi** » 26 Jun 2009 22:29

India's current problems of high cut offs are purely due to demand and supply where the supply of institutions is artificially restricted to satisfy ideological whims of the elites. Needless to say, the same elites are not affected since they send their children abroad anyway...

You have made RM ji proud..

This is not true to say the least; the cut offs are high in SDRE KV's, navodaya vidhyalas, national open schools and every school run by state/central govt. and these are niether run by elites nor do their kids attend these schools.

The shortage of schools is merely due to GOI/STATE govt apathy/inefficiency just like other infrastructural deficiencies nothing more nothing less ; no conspiracy here.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 26 Jun 2009 22:57

Sachin wrote:This year I heard that for SSLC exams (Class 10) orders were that some marks would be given even for attempting to give an answer. Writing down the question, or noting the question number was considered as a genuine attempt .

Where have you been? I took the Maharashtra SSLC in 92 and this formula was known at that time. For 3 mark questions, you get 1 mark for correctly noting down what is printed in the question paper.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 26 Jun 2009 23:09

Guys,

There is a deeper agenda here.

Sibal is running around with this new fangled educational ideas. He also wants free access for foreign universities. Along with a few yales or harvards the usual suspects will come flooding in.

Chidambaram is running around trying to force state govts to repeal the Anti conversion laws legitimately passed by each state.

The cards are still being held close to the chest.

Something stinks. Time alone will reveal the fine italian hand.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 26 Jun 2009 23:44

negi wrote:
India's current problems of high cut offs are purely due to demand and supply where the supply of institutions is artificially restricted to satisfy ideological whims of the elites. Needless to say, the same elites are not affected since they send their children abroad anyway...
You have made RM ji proud..

This is not true to say the least; the cut offs are high in SDRE KV's, navodaya vidhyalas, national open schools and every school run by state/central govt. and these are niether run by elites nor do their kids attend these schools.

The shortage of schools is merely due to GOI/STATE govt apathy/inefficiency just like other infrastructural deficiencies nothing more nothing less ; no conspiracy here.

No, you misunderstand me. There is an artificial barrier today for a private concern to run an educational institution in association with foreign university participation. This is on dubious ideological grounds that the imperialist West will somehow impose its views on the poor minds of Inidans and will undo the glorious socialist ideals. This has been mainly driven by the ideologues of institutes such as JNU and other assorted Marxist folks. This is what I meant by elites, not your ordinary Tata/Birla/Reliance types..

Our political leaders across all parties are only too glad to add to this with their multiple caste based policies, further restricting supply of quality education to the masses. Meanwhile, given the financial status of most states, they themselves are unable to start more quality education. So, for higher education, the state prevents public endeavours and does not provide it itself (which it shouldnt, IMHO). Meanwhile the leaders (elites if you will) do not suffer from their brain dead policies, because their progeny go to the very same West to study!

I am asserting any conspiracy here, its plain self interest.. but it is indeed the common people that suffer. I am surprised you disagree with this view...

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 26 Jun 2009 23:51

There is a deeper agenda here.

Well let us see if this is true. If Yale and Harvard comes to India offering all sorts of courses, which ones will the SDRE parents opt for their kids ? Not the Sociology ones, it will again be the sciences and applied sciences. Now tell me how this can be bad for the average young Indian or the future ?

Harvard/Yale clones in India will be your engineering and medical colleges on steroids. More likely places like CMU with strong SDRE favourite areas of expertise will swamp the sociology types of Yale or Harvard.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 26 Jun 2009 23:58

Bade saar,

Be that as it may. Even now there is no dearth of science and engg graduates. But the fear seems to be that the sociology types, even in small numbers, could lead to greater DIEs and possibly of a stronger deracinated variety, more disconnected with the idea of the country. Looking at the kind of research being done at these institutes about our country/culture/what-have-you, imagine the kind of impact it will have on indians if they were to study in such insti's. Imagine places like JNU etc with the pull of Hahvahd and the likes.

I believe that is what the other postors here are wary about.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Jun 2009 00:03

Bade wrote:
There is a deeper agenda here.
Well let us see if this is true. If Yale and Harvard comes to India offering all sorts of courses, which ones will the SDRE parents opt for their kids ? Not the Sociology ones, it will again be the sciences and applied sciences. Now tell me how this can be bad for the average young Indian or the future ?

Harvard/Yale clones in India will be your engineering and medical colleges on steroids. More likely places like CMU with strong SDRE favourite areas of expertise will swamp the sociology types of Yale or Harvard.

St Stephens had a cutoff somewhere in the nineties for the aam jantha but has a cutoff somewhere in the sixties for students affiliated to the church of north India.

Go figure.

Sibal was talking of getting the foreign institutions to accept reservations. Just imagine if some of these new comers declare themselves as minority institutions. Uber madrasas from saudi will be the first among the lot to take root.

Goras have great expertise in using our constitution to rape us.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 27 Jun 2009 00:13

Now if someone gives me an example of a person who scored 50% in Xth and did very well to become a Doctor , or someone who missed out on IIT but did go to one of the top ten Utys in USA for MS then are we supposed to conclude that our system has failed ?

negi-saar, I would have qualified in this thought experiment of yours. I was one mark below the cutoff for science stream, with a total marks of 420

for my Karnataka Board Xth std Exam, having whiled away all my time playing kirket and watching English movies bunking classes during high school years and due to parental negligence. It is another matter that I was a prospective

rank holder a few years before for my 7th std finals, which was a public examination in Karnataka in those days. Well, the girls did better than us boys in the final round.

There was one alumnus who later went to IIT-M and CalTech from the same class and is now a prof back in B'lore.

Well the setback and marginally scraping through to PDC science stream due to dumb luck, made me realize that the I also need to do what the other bozos do to score high.So had to put in the hard work next time to be in the top 1%. Still, with no advice/guidance took JEE with zero prep and needless to say did not qualify. (BTW, I know of a few who did qualify with zero prep at low ranks). Did not miss it at all at that time, since I would have done some esoteric stream like Engg Physics offered only at IIT-B in any case or the integrated MSc at Kanpur. So ended up in Bengal the real place to do Fizziks in those days. No major regrets and did all the back-door entry to IIT following that and a premier place in the UC system for another fun filled decade.

So the essence of the long story from my point of view is that low/high Xth std marks mean nothing in the end.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 27 Jun 2009 00:18

chetak wrote: St Stephens had a cutoff somewhere in the nineties for the aam jantha but has a cutoff somewhere in the sixties for students affiliated to the church of north India.
.

What you said about Stephens is also true for most Convent/Church affiliated ones. But, they also let in a few good student "secularly"

to keep up their standards.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 27 Jun 2009 00:33

The sad reality of independent India is that we still don't own our humanities & social science study. We have been continuing along the lines that was established in colonial India.

Till we cannot make our humanities & social science academia Indic, foreign universities should only be allowed to open Technical/Med/PreMed/Business oriented degree programs so they cannot influence the minds of young Indians with whatever vested agenda foreign groups will like to dictate.

We will have the largest youngest workforce in the world in coming decades. If that population is educated in these universities, we will loose Indicness forever. Even in engineering degrees 15-20 credits which is 4-5 courses are allotted to humanities, social sciences etc..

Also, another question will these people go for Masters/Phd level programs or BS levels as well ?

Imagine all our news anchors & media personality will long for appropriate Harvard/Yale programs

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 27 Jun 2009 00:33

The quality of today's engineering graduates from B tier institutions and below (i.e. excluding RECs, IITs) needs no comment. The IT industry is on record deploring the quality of the graduates. This is due to :

A false expectation by the government that "educational trusts" will work out of the goodness of their hearts and will not try to maximise profits. This has resulted in the promoters of private engineering colleges indulge in all sorts of shady practices that results in substandard infrastructure colleges in terms of labs , libraries and also in the quality of professors
Parents flocking to such colleges because there is no alternative.

Now if new players are allowed to make a fair profit, we should have an increase in number of quality seats. If this results in some sociology seats being offered... one must take the good with the bad. I personally think the advantages are much more than the minus points. As for the madarssa issue: its a fallacy to assume that Muslims want to send their wards to madarssas... all they want is a quality education just like the rest of us. Given a choice with a no future education of a Saudi madarssa to a education that opens lots of doors, you think they will have takers?

negi · Post by **negi** » 27 Jun 2009 00:41

Bade wrote: negi-saar,

Please no saar for me

Did not miss it at all at that time, since I would have done some esoteric stream like Engg Physics offered only at IIT-B in any case or the integrated MSc at Kanpur. So ended up in Bengal the real place to do Fizziks in those days. No major regrets and did all the back-door entry to IIT following that and a premier place in the UC system for another fun filled decade. So the essence of the long story from my point of view is that low/high Xth std marks mean nothing in the end.

And in this context neither do I ; the topic at hand is about the utility of the 'EXAMS' itself not the score per se.

The scores at Xth have as much utility as a high score in GRE or JEE nothing more nothing less; in case of latter a high score means opportunity to pursue desired branch or stream in a college of high repute, former too does the same thing at a smaller and earlier stage.

If I were to use the same logic being applied here against the Xth class exam; I would

and say oh so what if I scored less in GRE or JEE I wish to study aeronautical engg. in GA Tech or IITKgp as these scores tell nothing about my aptitude..no ?

There are cut offs everywhere at every stage in education system ; people and students know these before hand to prepare for them so long as the system is unbiased and consistent while admission process to me the system works just FINE.What needs to be improved is the way education is imparted and not by merely doing away with the 'exams'.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Jun 2009 00:47

Tanaji wrote:The quality of today's engineering graduates from B tier institutions and below (i.e. excluding RECs, IITs) needs no comment. The IT industry is on record deploring the quality of the graduates. This is due to :

A false expectation by the government that "educational trusts" will work out of the goodness of their hearts and will not try to maximise profits. This has resulted in the promoters of private engineering colleges indulge in all sorts of shady practices that results in substandard infrastructure colleges in terms of labs , libraries and also in the quality of professors

Parents flocking to such colleges because there is no alternative.
Now if new players are allowed to make a fair profit, we should have an increase in number of quality seats. If this results in some sociology seats being offered... one must take the good with the bad. I personally think the advantages are much more than the minus points. As for the madarssa issue: its a fallacy to assume that Muslims want to send their wards to madarssas... all they want is a quality education just like the rest of us. Given a choice with a no future education of a Saudi madarssa to a education that opens lots of doors, you think they will have takers?

Quality of B tier institutes are generally the same elsewhere too.

US or India or specially australia.

Which is why the bright ones make a bee line for good colleges.

But a great many low performing but affording Indian students are also enrolled are US b tier colleges.

By saudi madarssas, I meant muslim majority institutions where all are in skull caps and non muslims are not encouraged to join