Global Economy

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arnab
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by arnab »

Vivek Sreenivasan wrote:Vina dont know why your posting a thread about australia;s banking sector in the Indian economy discussion but id like to clarify that article. Australia DOES have a healthy banking sector. Do you know why Kevin Rudd is guaranteeing Deposits? Because other banks have done so overseas. Therefore if he did not there could be a run on aussie banks by some very panicked investors. Australia of all western countires is the best positioned do some research before coming out with plainly incorrect statments my friend.
Actually Australia is perhaps the only OECD country which does (did) not have a concept of deposit guarantee for depositors. So in a sense, such a move was overdue. I suppose the thinking was that 'deposit guarantees' inherently increase moral hazard issues for lenders in their decision making processes. Currently this 'guarantee' is a temporary measure - for 3 years.
Interestingly, these 'moves' by the Aus government do not affect the budgetary position of the Government (unlike the US). It changes the balance sheet asn since these are 'contingent liabilities', the fact that they are charging a fee from the Banks for guaranteeing foreign loans might actually increase revenues for the government. With the resource boom tapering off, they might actually need any revenues generated like this :)
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by Suraj »

I see no point in retaining the posts about Australia on this thread. I will delete them.

Vivek Srinivasan, you are welcome to identify yourself as Australian, but do not piss on your country of origin, on this forum.
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by malushahi »

Suraj wrote:I see no point in retaining the posts about Australia on this thread. I will delete them.

Vivek Srinivasan, you are welcome to identify yourself as Australian, but do not piss on your country of origin, on this forum.

And how did you find my two (now deleted) posts anywhere related to Australia? Or are we witnessing the Stalinesque purge of this thread?
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by Suraj »

malushahi: I deleted the entire thread of discussion; if you think your post is relevant, why don't you just post it again, instead of resorting to wisecracks ?
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by malushahi »

Suraj wrote:malushahi: I deleted the entire thread of discussion; if you think your post is relevant, why don't you just post it again, instead of resorting to wisecracks ?
Wisecracks? After deleting a bevy of posts? On a public forum? Wow - any other mods rollicking on this one?

Suraj saar - do you think everyone has the time to retrace their thought process just because some EDITED deletes posts without any regards to system audits?
Last edited by Rahul M on 13 Oct 2008 14:23, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Why resort to expletives at the drop of a hat ? Warning issued.
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by Suraj »

Malushahi: I deleted the posts because the entire line of conversation constituted off topic discussion. I'm afraid I cannot bring back your two posts that you think are pertinent, but suggested you repost them.

On the other hand, you not only characterized my actions as 'Stalinesque' (which I'm not particularly bothered about), but called me an imbecile as well. Posters using such language against anybody here (not just admins) gets a warning, and so will you.
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by Rahul M »

malushahi wrote:
Suraj wrote:malushahi: I deleted the entire thread of discussion; if you think your post is relevant, why don't you just post it again, instead of resorting to wisecracks ?
Wisecracks? After deleting a bevy of posts? On a public forum? Wow - any other mods rollicking on this one?

Suraj saar - do you think everyone has the time to retrace their thought process just because some EDITED deletes posts without any regards to system audits?
malushahi, suraj deleted the posts that he thought were irrelevant to the topic of global economy(including two of mine BTW). If you think he made a mistake why not point it out politely instead of resorting to phrases like stalinist purges ?
making your point in the right method goes a long way in avoiding confrontations. surely a mature poster like you is expected to understand that ?
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by malushahi »

Rahul M wrote:malushahi, suraj deleted the posts that he thought were irrelevant to the topic of global economy(including two of mine BTW). If you think he made a mistake why not point it out politely instead of resorting to phrases like stalinist purges ?
making your point in the right method goes a long way in avoiding confrontations. surely a mature poster like you is expected to understand that ?
Rahul: moderation will certainly be exercised in democratic, auditable situations - not in the "purges" we refer to above (a hangover from eras we saw growing up). While such behavior may pass for democratic process elsewhere, I'm sure stunned to see it on BRF. And if that earns me a ban here, it is BR's loss, not mine.

BTW, where did you think the evocation to wisecracks was leading to? Moderation?

For the record ->
Message subject: Board warning issued
From: Suraj
Sent at: 13 Oct 2008 04:49 am
To: malushahi

Message

The following is a warning which has been issued to you by an administrator or moderator of this site.
Quote:
With regard to the following post:
"Suraj saar - do you think everyone has the time to retrace their thought process just because some imbecile deletes posts without any regards to system audits?"

I'm issuing a warning for personal attacks using insulting language.
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by vina »

Hmm.. The global economic meltdown happened and who are the guys who have the hands on the reins of the rescue chariot ?.. Why the usual Yankee, Yindoo , Yehudi troika. :(( :(( . It is all a conspiracy.. The buzz will be getting louder in the our "South Asian" neighborhood using the usual 'who benefits' logic on how all this came about..

Yankee -- Paulson, Yindoo --> Neel Kashkari , Yehudi --> Ben Bernanke :(( :((
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by John Snow »

And if that earns me a ban here, it is BR's loss, not mine.
even I thought it was like that, I was banned, and soon realised it be other way, you will also come around, better get banned, the real way to wisdom. Dont beleive me try it. :mrgreen:


PS: you came to BR not the other way! :wink:
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by malushahi »

John Snow wrote:
And if that earns me a ban here, it is BR's loss, not mine.
even I thought it was like that, I was banned, and soon realised it be other way, you will also come around, better get banned, the real way to wisdom. Dont beleive me try it. :mrgreen:


PS: you came to BR not the other way! :wink:
I wish but not sure that the privilege is indeed what it happened to be a few years back. Have seen a lot lurking these boards since 1998. (Not sure too about the "ways" you allude to ;) )

But enjoy the ride John - I do wish you god speed.

While at it, I hope you agree that standing against what one perceives to be wrong on a public forum is all good. What was that about "Hato Va Prapsyasi Svargam" - voice on this forum is a small price to pay for a better customer experience for future users.
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by Surya »

What did Vivek post that was supposed to "piss on your country of origin??"

And is that now one of the forum rules???
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by Suraj »

I do not see what the problem with deleting off topic posts is at all. Moderators on BRF use their discretion to keep threads on track as a matter of routine, and at every instance we make a good faith attempt to ensure only off topic posts are deleted. If at all a relevant post was deleted, it could only be attributed to an oversight. It is absurd to characterize it as 'Stalinesque purges' and resort to such a confrontational tone.

I deleted an increasingly ugly thread of discussion where we had Vivek on one hand and vina, Manu, Rahul M and a few others on the other side, with one side questioning India's development, and the other questioning Australia's race relationships, among others. I don't consider it a BRF rule, but from a moderator's perspective, neither the direction nor tone of such an argument is going to lead to anything other than a flamewar here. It's no different from, say, going to the Arjun thread and calling the tank a pile of crap.

I issued a formal warning to a poster despite the potential conflict of interest of me being the target. I don't mind a confrontational tone from a poster - it keeps moderators more honest - and at best, I'd have left it to another moderator to address any action. But calling anyone here an imbecile is not something we allow.

I hope this clarifies the matter.
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by Singha »

it stands to reason that a jingo forum like BR will not encourage pissing on India by anyone,
regardless of india, PIO, OCI or foreigner status.
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by John Snow »

Shine on Suraj garu, eclipse come and go! :wink:
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by vina »

Deleted.

Vina: enough of the topic please. Your language didn't help matters any further in the earlier discussion; you pushed the envelope then, and are doing so again here. There's a point where your unique style of posting can shift from humour to a liability. Please, just move on.
Last edited by Suraj on 13 Oct 2008 21:29, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Deleted continution of moderated discussion
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by malushahi »

Suraj wrote:I do not see what the problem with deleting off topic posts is at all.
I thought you weren't quite sure that all deleted posts were OT. Or has that changed now?

Suraj wrote:It's no different from, say, going to the Arjun thread and calling the tank a pile of crap.
Does re-iterating Arjun as above qualify for warning? Where do you draw the line - now don't direct me to the forum guidelines puhleez. Guess I'm wasting my breath. Hello sanity.
Suraj wrote:I issued a formal warning to a poster despite the potential conflict of interest of me being the target.
Warning is a miniscule privilege thy enjoy in the larger scheme of things. What is important though is that you chose to respond to "Stalinesque purge" with "wisecracks". Very moderating indeed - and to that pursuit thy deserve a compliment from this knave.
Singha wrote:it stands to reason that a jingo forum like BR will not encourage pissing on India by anyone,
regardless of india, PIO, OCI or foreigner status.
Singahji, for all this while it wasn't quite apparent that you could talk the neta-talk too. Well done, well done.
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by malushahi »

John Snow wrote:Shine on Suraj garu, eclipse come and go! :wink:
Sure enough shine on with all your tejas - just that everyone is watching. This is becoming all too gripping.
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by Rahul M »

malushahi, what's up with you I wonder ?
suraj deleted some posts that were OT (he thought) and may be he was wrong. (I don't remember, so I can't say either way)

your post was certainly an overreaction. perhaps suraj made an unintentional mistake, did that warrant a phrase like "stalinist purge" without asking even once the reason behind it ?
and then you pull out adjectives like imbeciles.

and now it seems you are on a personal crusade to vilify each and everyone on this board !
WHY ?
I'm once again requesting you to see reason and drop this line of comments.

NOTE: this thread will be cleaned up (again !) by tomorrow morning.
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by malushahi »

Rahul M wrote:malushahi, what's up with you I wonder ?
suraj deleted some posts that were OT (he thought) and may be he was wrong. (I don't remember, so I can't say either way)

your post was certainly an overreaction. perhaps suraj made an unintentional mistake, did that warrant a phrase like "stalinist purge" without asking even once the reason behind it ?
and then you pull out adjectives like imbeciles.

and now it seems you are on a personal crusade to vilify each and everyone on this board !
WHY ?
I'm once again requesting you to see reason and drop this line of comments.

NOTE: this thread will be cleaned up (again !) by tomorrow morning.
Rahul: with all respect, I apologize that jingoes like you (and singha-bhai) had to endure this ugliness (I will maintain that the choice to respond to "Stalinesque purge" with "wisecracks" was rather poor).

I hope with the cleaning of this thread we can put our rubs behind - desi citizen, nri or pio. And I do thank you for stepping in.
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by Surya »

Ok -

I came in saw one post of Vivek's which seems to be factually correct and then a warning of pissing on etc.


Going to assume that there was something obnoxious in some deleted posts.

singha - issue will be where you draw the line - and someone's valid criticism will be someone elses "pissing on my country".

anyway - the matter is dead for now
Last edited by Surya on 13 Oct 2008 22:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by malushahi »

Can't help posting this - but never thought that "Stalinesque purge" would turn into "Stalin's Organs" pointed in my direction. Peace all (Suraj bhai - chums I hope)!!! ::takes a bow while exiting stage::
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by Rahul M »

Surya wrote:Ok -

I came in saw one post of Vivek's which seems to be factually correct and then a warning of pissing on etc.


Going to assume that there was something obnoxious in some deleted posts.

singha - issue will be where you draw the line - and someone's valid criticism will be someone elses "pissing on my country".

anyway - the matter is dead for now
surya, surely you understand that there has to be some kind of redline, even if we are unsure where it should lie.
at the end of the day mods have to take a call about what constitutes constructive criticism and what is pi$$ing. the former is always welcome on BRF but of course that is open to interpretation !
the comment in question was not exactly pi$$ing but it would surely have inflamed a lot of people. but again, that was NOT the reason it was deleted. that was entirely due to its irrelevance to the topic of discussion.
hope I've clarified the issue somewhat !
regards.
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by Surya »

Rahul

fair enough
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by malushahi »

Some relief for Des.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 931200.ece
Déjà vu: six steps that make up a great panic

For 2008, read 1907. This time, however, China and India have emerged well, unlike America, Britain and Europe
William Rees-Mogg.

It has not been too difficult to foresee the course of the 2008 credit crisis, since it has followed the classic pattern of financial panics. There has been nothing new so far; it is just that the world forgot the lessons of previous panics: an expensive oversight.

One of the classic panics occurred in 1907, when the failure of the Knickerbocker Trust precipitated a credit crash on Wall Street, which was eventually brought under control by the great US banker, J.P. Morgan.

The following year, Marlon T. Herrick, an Ohio economist, published an article, The Panic Of 1907 and Some Of Its lessons. in which he laid out the six stages in which panics occur. “(1) Failure of an important bank or institution: the Knickerbocker Trust in 1907; (2) Heavy withdrawals of funds by depositors; (3) Demoralised stock markets affecting banks and depositors alike; (4) Hoarding of money in large amounts, not only by individuals, but by banks; (5) Gradual improvement in financial affairs;

(6) Acute trade reaction, discharge of many thousands of employees, and realisation that the country must pass through a more or less severe industrial reconstruction.”

That was 1907; it might just as well have been 2008. For the British, Northern Rock was the important bank that helped to precipitate the panic; in New York it was Bear Stearns, followed by the disaster of Lehman Brothers.

Since then the financial world has moved from step one to step four of the 1907 pattern; hoarding of money, which Maynard Keynes termed “liquidity preference”, is still inhibiting the normal flow of interbank lending. We are stuck, for the present, in phase four.

However, the world will move on, as it always does. There will eventually occur a gradual improvement in financial credit, with some resumption of interbank lending stimulated by government interventions. Unfortunately, there will also be an “acute trade reaction” and a serious rise in unemployment - phases five and six of the 1907 formula are already in the pipeline.

The 1907 panic was the sixth- largest contraction in the financial history of the United States. As one commentator, Benedikt Koehler, has observed: “Once the storm subsided, the aftermath showed the world had changed irreversibly and did not return to business as usual. The crisis of 1907 set out in sharp relief that new forces in financial markets were in the ascendance.” One could take a similar view of all other big financial crises. That is again true in 2008.

The 1907 panic led to the creation of America's central bank, the Federal Reserve Board, under the Act of 1913. Subsequently, it was the 1929 panic that led to more stringent US banking regulations and, more broadly, to President Roosevelt's New Deal. The Great Depression that followed the 1929 Crash undermined confidence in democracy throughout the world and brought Hitler to power in Germany.

More recently, the inflation of the 1970s, which destroyed the secondary banks in London, brought Margaret Thatcher, and deregulation, to power in 1979, and Ronald Reagan in 1980. Financial panics occur when there has been a long-term build-up of new forces. When the dam breaks, that changes the whole landscape.

Before the 2008 crash, the United States was already widely seen as losing relative power, in politics, economics, and even defence. Entangled in Iraq and Afghanistan, it already had a large trade deficit and was borrowing from Asia on a colossal scale.

The rising power was not seen as Europe or Russia, but as China, the largest and most successful of the emerging Asian economies. Russia does indeed have very large reserves of oil and gas, and benefited when the oil price was rising, but it was China that had become a successful modern manufacturer and exporter.

If people looked beyond China for a rising economy, they saw India, also with a population over a billion, and with a growth rate two or three times that of the West. China has about two trillion dollars of currency reserves, a crucial asset at the present time. Neither Chinese nor Indian banks have substantial investments in the toxic sub-prime mortgages, because they had much better opportunities for profitable investment at home.

If China and India have been particularly impressive in the crisis, the other emerging Asian markets have performed reasonably well. They experienced the Asian crisis of a decade ago and learnt some painful lessons about the importance of liquidity. You do not need to tell Asian bankers that cash is king.

In the early stage of the present panic, Europe was complacent, taking the view that this was an American crisis, caused by holdings of American sub-prime mortgage securities in American banks. However, if the United States has been a big loser in the crisis, so has Europe. European banks turned out to have too much toxic debt and toxic derivatives. This was bad banking, badly regulated, whether it occurred in the US, the UK or the eurozone.

If anything, the European authorities lagged behind the American and the British. There has been no big consolidated European response, either from the European Central Bank or the European Union itself.

Britain has benefited from its freedom of action outside the euro. We could take our own decisions, some of which, admittedly, proved mistaken. To the irritation of Germany, the Irish Government gave an independent guarantee to the Irish banks; how that could be reconciled with membership of the euro is an outstanding question.

The IMF and the World Bank, the Federal Reserve, the European Central Bank, the European Union, the British regulatory authorities will all have to review their position. So will the world's largest banks. The group of eight will have to be extended to China and India. The world has changed; the world's banking system must change with it.
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by ramana »

malushahi, Thanks for that post. The writer is well known observer of events in the financial world.

Also Talebs' essay on Fourth Quadrant

Follow the link in the url.
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by svinayak »

VIX Exceeds 75 for First Time in `Panic' of Global Stocks Rout

By Jeff Kearns

Oct. 10 (Bloomberg) -- The benchmark index for U.S. stock options surged above 75 for the first time and headed toward its fifth straight record as stocks plunged in a global rout.

The VIX, as the Chicago Board Options Exchange Volatility Index is known, climbed 18 percent to a record 75.46 at 2:03 p.m. in New York. The index measures the cost of using options as insurance against declines in the Standard & Poor's 500 Index, which tumbled 6.8 percent to 847.67 and headed toward its worst week ever.

``The markets have melted down,'' said Robert Weissenstein, who oversees $125 billion as chief investment officer at Credit Suisse Holdings in New York. ``People aren't going to pay anything for risk and they're running in every direction from any asset that could be volatile.''

Volatility benchmarks in the U.S. and Europe soared to records as stocks tumbled around the world on growing concern international attempts to prop up financial markets will fail to avert a recession. The MSCI World Index of 23 developed countries lost 6.8 percent, bringing this week's slide to 22 percent, the most since records began in 1970.

``We're in no-man's land and no one has a clue where the market is going to go next,'' said Noah Ament, an equity derivatives strategist at Strategic Option Consulting in New York. ``You're just seeing forced liquidations. It's all fear and panic.''

The VIX rose yesterday to 63.92 and has closed at a record for the past four days. It has averaged 60.15 this week, almost triple its 22.39 average in its 18-year history. It had never exceeded 50 before this week.
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOM

Post by Neshant »

any idea what the guy is rambling about?

is he proposing a switch to the gold standard or some new global monetary system?

He does not give any details but rather goes on rambling about pulling together and being tested in the days ahead and other meaningless stuff. He should be explaining what exactly this new system is. As in all systems, there are winners and losers so who's going to be on the losing end with this new system.

-----------
Financial Crisis: Gordon Brown calls for 'new Bretton Woods'

Gordon Brown has called for a "new Bretton Woods" international agreement to prevent a repeat of the global financial meltdown.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... Woods.html
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by Arya Sumantra »

Didn't Sarkozy too invite india, china, southafrica and brazil to create "a new economic order". Euphemisms aside, they are all calling for a currency for global trade which is backed by gold. Macroeconomics profs even in North american b-schools openly say in the classes that the international trade runs on fiat money.

I think Swiss francs is one of the few currencies backed by gold. Might as well start using gold as a currency for global trade.
Last edited by Arya Sumantra on 14 Oct 2008 04:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by John Snow »

Our resident expert Johaan is
Superb Brown subject to decipher it for our understanding!

I eagerly await his sagely discouirse

Now over to Johaan
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOM

Post by malushahi »

Neshant wrote:any idea what the guy is rambling about?
-----------
Financial Crisis: Gordon Brown calls for 'new Bretton Woods'
Wow, this is getting surreal given that 2 years ago people were laughing off the very thought of "Bretton Woods 2".

(The article on Economist.com is paid subsciption, hence posting in full.)
SURVEY: WORLD ECONOMY
A topsy-turvy world
Sep 14th 2006

How long will emerging economies continue to finance America's spendthrift habits?


MANY economists have long been expecting America's widening current-account deficit to cause a financial meltdown in the dollar and the bond market. The main reason why this has not happened (yet) is that emerging economies have been happy to finance that deficit. In 2005 this group of countries ran a combined current-account surplus of over $500 billion (see chart 14). A large chunk of that was invested in American Treasury securities, in what Ken Rogoff of Harvard University has called “the biggest foreign-aid programme in world history”.

The flow of capital from poor countries to the richest economy in the world is exactly the opposite of what economic theory would predict. According to the textbooks, capital should flow from rich countries with abundant capital, such as America, to poorer ones, such as China, where capital is relatively scarce, so returns are higher. This is what happened during the globalisation of the late 19th century, when surplus European saving financed the development of America. Between 1880 and 1914, Britain ran an average current-account surplus of 5% of GDP. In contrast, America today has a deficit of 7% of GDP. It seems perverse that poor countries today prefer to buy low-yielding American government bonds when they could earn higher returns by investing in their own economies.

So why are they doing it? One explanation is the so-called “Bretton Woods 2” thesis put forward three years ago by Michael Dooley, David Folkerts-Landau and Peter Garber at Deutsche Bank. (Bretton Woods was the system of fixed exchange rates that prevailed for a quarter of a century after the second world war.) They argue that Asian economies are pursuing a deliberate policy of currency undervaluation to ensure strong export-led growth. To hold their currencies down, Asian central banks have been buying lots of American Treasury bonds. This reduces interest rates and supports consumer spending in the United States, allowing Americans to buy lots more Asian exports—which, the authors argue, suits both Asia and America.

Furthermore, they say, opening its doors to foreign direct investment (FDI) has helped China to build a world-class capital stock. Emerging economies with poorly developed financial markets are not good at allocating capital, so they buy Treasury bonds and let American firms do the domestic investment for them. Admittedly the return on Treasury bonds is lower than the return on FDI, but this, the authors reckon, is a small price to pay for more efficient domestic investment and hence faster long-term growth.

The bottom line of this theory is that the main blame for America's deficit lies with Asia's emerging economies, rather than with America itself. And because the arrangement is in those Asian countries' economic interest, the theory suggests, they will go on financing America's deficit for a good many years.

Lost in the woods

However, Morris Goldstein and Nicholas Lardy, at the Institute for International Economics in Washington, DC, argue that Bretton Woods 2 does not explain China's behaviour in the past, and it certainly would not be in China's interest to go on behaving that way in future. The first flaw in the theory is that America takes only one-fifth of China's exports, with Europe a close runner-up. So if China were trying to keep the yuan undervalued, it would surely do better to hold down its real trade-weighted exchange rate, which rose by 35% during the dollar's climb from 1994 to 2001.

China's main motive for tying the yuan closely to the dollar has been financial stability, not crude mercantilism. But now a rigid exchange rate looks as though it might become a source of instability. The large build-up of reserves that has resulted from currency intervention is creating excess liquidity, with its attendant risks of inflation, asset-price bubbles and a serious misallocation of capital.

The dollar “peg” has forced China to adopt an excessively lax monetary policy. Real interest rates of 3% are far too low for an economy growing at 10%, but there is little room to raise rates because that would attract more inflows of short-term capital and so require even greater intervention, further boosting liquidity. China needs a more flexible exchange rate so it can regain control of its monetary policy.

Another reason why building up yet more reserves is not in the interest of Asian central banks is that it would expose them to large future losses when their currencies do eventually appreciate against the dollar. Emerging economies hold 70% of global foreign-exchange reserves (see chart 15), mainly in dollars, and account for four of the top five holders of reserves (China, South Korea, Taiwan and Russia). By the end of this year China's reserves are likely to reach $1 trillion. Messrs Roubini and Setser calculate that a 33% rise in the yuan—which is quite possible over several years—would imply a politically embarrassing capital loss of 15% of China's GDP. The longer that countries accumulate reserves, the bigger the potential losses.

A third defect in the Bretton Woods 2 theory, according to Messrs Goldstein and Lardy, is that in recent years FDI has financed less than 5% of China's fixed investment, clearly nowhere near enough to have helped create a world-class capital stock. The only way that China can ensure a better allocation of capital is by reforming its domestic financial system and by using higher interest rates to cool overinvestment. Again, that suggests it is now in China's own interest to allow more flexibility in its exchange rate, which means buying fewer Treasury bonds.

All this suggests that China now needs to set its currency free for the sake of its own economy, rather than America's. Indeed, a revaluation of the yuan by itself probably would not make much of a dent in America's current-account deficit, because it would not solve the structural imbalance between saving and investment. America has a huge deficit largely because it saves too little. Politicians, however, prefer to blame China.

The final nail in the coffin of Bretton Woods 2 is that the increase in China's external surplus has been much too small to account for America's deficit. Estimates for 2006 suggest that China's current-account surplus has widened by $140 billion since 1997, whereas America's deficit has expanded by $720 billion. By far the largest counterpart to America's deficit today is the group of emerging oil exporters, which have moved from rough balance in 1997 to an estimated surplus of $425 billion this year—much larger than emerging Asia's total surplus of $250 billion.

Oil exporters are determined not to repeat their mistakes after previous oil-price jumps. They have been much more cautious in spending their revenues, saving a larger share than in the past. So far, the bulk of petrodollars has probably gone into relatively liquid dollar assets. But these countries have greater reason than Asia to invest in non-dollar currencies, because they trade much less with America. And petrodollars are mostly managed by investment funds that aim to maximise returns, so oil exporters' assets are more footloose than those of Asian central banks and could quickly shift out of the dollar if it starts to slide again.

Too much of a good thing

Mr Bernanke has argued that America's deficit is the innocent by-product of a saving glut in emerging economies. If the rest of the world saves more than it invests (ie, runs a current-account surplus), then America has to run a deficit. The implication is that America's deficit is more sustainable than generally thought. But this still begs the question of why emerging economies have excess saving when their return on investment is higher than in rich countries.

A paper presented by Raghuram Rajan, chief economist of the IMF, at this year's annual symposium of the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City offers a tentative explanation. Mr Rajan argues that fast-growing poor countries tend to generate more saving than they can use because of their underdeveloped financial systems.

Thus when a country experiences rapid productivity growth, consumers save much of their income gains. But the opportunities for transferring those savings into domestic investment through the financial system are limited, so saving typically exceeds investment and the country runs a current-account surplus. This also explains the unexpected finding that emerging economies that rely least on foreign finance tend to enjoy the fastest growth. Faster-growing economies simply generate more domestic saving.

But this means that capital flows to the United States are sustainable only as long as emerging economies' domestic financial systems remain immature and unable to offer the usual range of financial instruments; and such shortcomings have a clear economic cost. In the years ahead, as these countries' domestic financial systems develop, their current-account surpluses are likely to disappear.

How long might that take? Consider China, the thriftiest of them all, which saves almost 50% of its annual GDP. Many people believe that this is because Chinese households need to maintain a large financial cushion to make up for the lack of a social safety net and the absence of consumer credit. However, Louis Kuijs, an economist at the World Bank, says that China's household saving rate, at 16% of GDP, is not abnormally high; in fact, it is lower than India's. What pushes the overall rate to such exalted levels is huge saving by companies and by the government. State firms do not pay dividends, so high profits in recent years have pushed up their saving. Government saving is also unusually high.

On the basis of current policies and expected changes in income and demographics, Mr Kuijs predicts that China's saving rate will fall only modestly over the coming years, still leaving a substantial current-account surplus in two decades' time. But if the government implements reforms, forcing firms to pay dividends, liberalising financial markets and spending more on health and education, then China's current account could be brought into rough balance by 2020, he says.

However, another World Bank paper, by David Dollar and Aart Kraay, suggests that China could be running sizeable deficits by then. The authors say that it does not make sense for China to be a large net supplier of capital to the rest of the world when its productivity is growing rapidly and its capital-labour ratio is only one-tenth of that in America. They put this distortion down mainly to extensive capital controls that prevent residents from borrowing abroad and foreigners from investing in China. If all capital controls were scrapped and the government pushed ahead with economic and financial reforms, China would run a current-account deficit of 2-5% of GDP, they reckon.

Capital-market reforms should also bring down net saving in other emerging economies. In other words, at some time in the future, emerging economies may no longer provide capital to the rest of the world, but instead run current-account deficits. This will increase the global cost of capital, especially in America.

But before that happens, emerging economies' investment in foreign assets is likely to change its composition, favouring corporate assets rather than low-yielding Treasury bonds. The snag is that American politicians are most reluctant to allow Chinese, Russian or Middle Eastern firms to have a controlling interest in American firms: witness the failed attempt by China's CNOOC, a state-owned oil company, to buy Unocal last year, and Dubai Ports World's aborted takeover of several American ports this year. As long as America depends on foreign capital, it needs to be less picky.

The world's present external imbalances are neither desirable nor sustainable. Those who argue that poor countries will continue to finance America's current-account deficit long into the future seem to forget that one day it will have to pay back the money.
Nor are the current arrangements in the long-term interest of America's economy. By buying dollar assets, Asian central banks are subsidising American consumers, encouraging too little saving, too much spending and excessive investment in housing. Asia's central banks have turned off the usual market signal of rising bond yields which should be telling America to put its house in order. As long as America can get cheap money from abroad, it has little incentive to rebalance its economy.

When global imbalances are eventually unwound, the process will hurt even more. Unless America reduces its deficit before emerging economies lose interest in accumulating reserves, the dollar, Treasury bonds and the whole American economy are likely to suffer a hard landing.

Copyright © 2006 The Economist Newspaper and The Economist Group. All rights reserved.
malushahi
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by malushahi »

ramana wrote:Also Talebs' essay on Fourth Quadrant
ramana, that article is a gem of a framework for stochastic events. Fills a lot of gaps after hearing Taleb (on derivatives) at my school about 6 months ago.
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by shaardula »

ramana thanks.
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by shaardula »

ok ramana, i said thank you in the last post.
in this post i offer my shashtaanga namskaras to you.

one day, allah permitting, i will seek out taleb in NYC. he is my new god. (still waiting for his book)
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by malushahi »

Looks like the Keynesians on this thread are back in business.
U.S. to Buy Stakes in Nation's Largest Banks
Recipients Include Citi, Bank of America, Goldman; Government Pressures All to Accept Money as Part of Broadened Rescue Effort
ramana
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by ramana »

Thanks guys.
I suggest you guys watch a French movie "Wages of Fear". Try to get the French language version.
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by malushahi »

ramana wrote:I suggest you guys watch a French movie "Wages of Fear". Try to get the French language version.
Le Salaire de la Peur: ummm, is there a connection to the current mess that I am missing?
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by pradeepe »

Woah! DOW up 11%+!!. Irrational exuberance or the end of the drop?
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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by putnanja »

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Re: GLOBAL ECONOMY

Post by vina »

pradeepe wrote:Woah! DOW up 11%+!!. Irrational exuberance or the end of the drop?
What he giveth with one hand, he taketh away with the other ! :twisted: :twisted: ..

I mean the Fed and the Treasury led by the Jewish and Gentile banias. Have they announced what price they are going to pay to get the securities off the hands of the banks ? . I have a sneaking suspicion that the losses suffered by the banks will be in the ball park of the cash they received today ..

Nice no ? Fed gives out cash and announces buy out of junk at a few cents to the dollar, the banks promptly write down their losses and use the fed's cash to cover it..so atleast they dont need more cash to capitalize and then with fed guarantee they go about the business of banking.

So what did the tax payer get out of all this.. preferred stock in the banks (even if his cash immediately got wiped out due to write down losses) . Question is, was the valuation fair , esp when you know that your cash was going to get go down the black hole immediately.

Oh.. for anyone hoping that the global real estate market will turn on a dime and recover.. fat chance.. And for all the India based realtors who were hoping for Private Equity money to bail them out, well, with all the banks now under govt ownership ,control and regulation I expect proprietary trading (the largest cash cow for wall st in recent years, esp for Goldman) and private equity and "internal" hedge funds to get the chop or be severly restricted . No way are they going to go out doling out cash at fanciful valuations to the builders here.
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