Indian Response to Terrorism

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RajeshA
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by RajeshA »

I would say, NSG also needs better equipped and hardened Humvees. The buses in which they were transported, as I have heard here on BRF, were abysmal. Moreover even our Netas were giving too much information regarding the transport and movement of NSG personnel. The NSG commandos could have been attacked on the way to the situation place, and would have had little protection in such buses against vigorous rocket attacks. I am happy, nothing like that happened.

There is much to be improved.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by vera_k »

May be OT, but while people debate a military response, please consider donating or volunteering for a charity so that the hands of future generations are strengthened in this fight.

Ekal Vidyalaya
India Development and Relief Fund
Bhaktivedanta International Charities
Akshay Patra Foundation
Dhiman
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Dhiman »

As immediate measures:
Aggressive patrolling by Navy and Coast Guard
Anything that comes out of Pakistani shores must seek Indian permission to proceed and anything that comes out of Pakistani coast with young men in it must wait at pre-determined places to be boarded and searched no matter how long they have to wait. If they don't do this and are detected sink them and don't bother asking any questions.

Neutralize key terror leaders and planners in Pakistan
Create a group of snipers that can sneak into Pakistan and eliminate terror master minds[/list]

Plus many other such steps to put a continuous high-intensity pressure on Pakistan until they start behaving.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by RajeshA »

I think the Pushtun, even Pushtun ex-PA servicemen, can be recruited to do some target practice in Isloo.

The thing is that Baitullah Mehsud or one of his protege would want to be the Amir in FATA and NWFP. However TSPA and ISI has its own cadre of Sarkari Taliban. If Baitullah wants to come on top, he need to not only get rid of the Sarkari Taliban either through elimination or subjugation, but most importantly he needs to get rid of their handlers - the ones sitting in Isloo and Pindi. So I guess his interests and Indian interests could temporarily coincide.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by a_kumar »

Ok.. lesson on BRF.. Do not get caught up with catching up with posts!! Its a race tough to win in situations like this!!
brihaspati wrote: Yes they maybe all ridiculous- but together they make a powerful argument in favour of not taking action in someone without the political will. But I would think that just from common sense, if the political regime had not thought of clearly what it ultimately wants to do with Pakistan, the military and strategic objectives will be ill-defined and self-defeating.
Very well put!! The ColdStart doctrine while very hopeful, is only a military strategy. Whats unsaid is it has utility only to a political establishment that is equally "cold and calculated". It needs the powers be to play the cards close to the chest and not going around like headless chicken yelling of proof.

While the way critical information has slipped through has helped jingoes from going insane, revealing ones cards undermines the options. I am not advocating not to release anything, I think there is a lot of scope between keeping jingoes and PR machinary's doing their job and still retaining critical information that can be used later on. But that happens only if procedures are in place to identify what is crucial and important. Anyway, lessons for later unfortunatley.
brihaspati wrote: This particular attack must have come with full knowledge of the Pakistani state, but for various reasons it simply was unable to (or as some BRfites will point out probably did not want to) act - the Zardari faction does not feel itself strong enough to defy the military-secret service completely, and is also under pressure from the theological establishment to compromise with the Taleban - and therefore Pak army is fully ready. I do hope everyone in India sees the sense in taking military action not on Pak cue but when they least expect it.
Simply put, for all we know, PA may have already moved 100,000 troops weeks before Nov 26th. And Avram pointed to our state of affairs of defence preparedness, which is not exactly a secret.

For now, we should focus on getting Dawood and LeT/JeM heads. This is one test for Pakistani civilian govt. If they help us eliminate Dawood/Let/JeM heads, meaning undermining the ISI or keeping them out of the loop, then maybe there is something to work with here.
samuel.chandra
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by samuel.chandra »

Very true Narayanan. Unfortunately they don't allow us to edit petitions once posted. The idea is that we shouldnt be able to change the petition after people have signed it.
narayanan wrote:Samuel.chandra:

Your petition has a double-negative title. Too complicated.

How about: Citizens For Ending Pakistani Terrorism

So positive.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by a_kumar »

RajeshA wrote:One response to this attack, is to attack Pakistan in the European Press, in places like Germany, France, Sweden, all the places from where Pakistan buys its defense hardware. US would go ahead and supply to Pakistan, but in some European countries, the governments are sensible to their image.

At the moment, the Mumbai attacks are front page news in Europe. Now is the time, to flood the News Portals with comments, as well as the press media if possible.

It is possible to stop Germany selling any submarines to Pakistan Navy, as well as other items on their shopping lists.

BRF members can start criticizing such sales of these countries, all over Europe.
Lets start the machine rolling!!
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Rahul M
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Rahul M »

n^3 ji, the SAS did take quite a long time to deploy in the iranian embassy siege although I don't know the exact time b/w order given to deployment.
but the NSG does station a smaller group of about 50 men at minutes stand-by and if this was a simpler incident, they WOULD have deployed to mumbai within a couple of hours.
This does not include the time taken to go through building plans and gather intel.

Johann, even in the scenario you describe(each metro with a company of NSG with a platoon on stand-by) the requirement of a huge number of men required would mean much longer response times. a platoon is nearly not enough for these ops. the only upside would be subtraction of the delhi-mumbai transit time.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by enqyoob »

With incident reports coming in all over Mumbai, it made a lot of sense NOT to fly a large force into Mumbai airport without getting a clearer picture. As it is, they were one traffic light away from having the domestic terminal blown up. How tough would it have been for the Pakis to station a dinghy with a SAM-toting pig under the approach?

So once the terrorists were bottled up, it was a sure 24-hour wait, minimum. Larger forces sound good, until you think about the level of training needed. After all each state has an ATS - I presume that ATS training includes a lot of what the NSG had to do.

The idea that only 200 Indians exist, who can take on 4-th grade dropout 21-year-old terrorists from Pakistan, is utterly humiliating to contemplate, and quite wrong. The police and ATS would have got the hotels cleaned. In retrospect, no disrespect to the NSG, no particularly special skills were applied to flush them out, that only the NSG could have done.

As for rescuing hostages, the sad truth is that there was no question of rescue, because the sadistic Pakistani sex-offenders kept them alive only as long as they could prolong their deaths through torture. The lesson here is that there is only one way to react if ever confronted with pigs trying to take hostages. This is to rush them IMMEDIATELY. Some will die, but if one does not rush, them, all will die anyway, in a far more horrible manner.

Does anyone know why Moshe, the Israeli kid, had blood all over his trousers? So it turns out that the brave woman who rescued him must have literally grabbed and dragged him away even as he was getting drenched in his parents' blood?

May the Pakis all rot in he**.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Baljeet »

Johan is suggesting we should have swat style units approx 20-50 men, heavily armed, fully mobile with hardened humvv type vehicles, light helo with gatalin gun, improved BFJ etc. We must have law that all buildings that are government, hotels, high rise, they must give their entire layout plans to Gov't, all anti terror agencies must have these plans in digitized format. We as a nation pride ourselves in writing software, lets put rubber to road and prove it. We need to improve our infrastructure, these power cables runing rogue must have some semblance to it, IAF had hell of a problem getting helos down to right height for dropping NSG at nariman point. In case of emergency, fire department, ATS units must be able to override elevators, that they are brought down to ground floor and made immobile.

Write more later on lessons learned
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Baljeet »

vsudhir wrote:HM and CWC response to terrorism:

A behind the scenes account of Patil's resignation
Walking in Sonia Gandhi said briskly, "the time for resolutions is over. It is now time for strict action." But still home minister Shivraj Patil did not get the message. He got up and said, "if my resignation will help then I am prepared to resign." but instead of doing that he went on to reel statistics of casualties by terrorist attacks under NDA rule and asked his CWC colleagues to spread this message.

This was a bit much for his colleagues who were hoping that he would do the graceful thing and resign. "Mr Home Minister, the time for all this is over. It is now time for you to resign," said Dr Karan Singh quite firmly.

This was met with a lot of cheer and a few thumped the table. Still Patil did not get the message. He began reeling off his plans for the future, only to be interrupted by Kamal Nath who reiterated what Karan Singh said, "forget your future plans. What do you plan to do now," he said. Along with Nath, both Kapil Sibal and P. Chidambaram came down heavily on Patil.

Finally Patil got the message. He scribbled a two-line resignation on the paper in front of him and handed it to the prime minister. The PM waved at it while Patil said, "actually I should resign to both of you," and looked at Sonia.

Patil was perhaps hoping that Sonia would save him, as usual. She said nothing. That was when he finally got the message. The next morning Patil called on the PM and handed his resignation. This was promptly accepted.
If shivraj patil has any dignity left--I seriously doubt he does, he would put a gun to his head and do the right thing. But again, we are talking about Indian Politicians here, anytime they are in soup their most famous acts follow, these netas don't know that Indian Citizens are jaded by it. Here are the snipets..
This is a typical response of Indian Neta

1. There are vested interest behind this incidence, I will not resign, I am here to server the people even at the peril of myself and my family.
2. Get the past statistic, memorize them and use them as an excuse to get out hard situation.
3. Chamchagiri will always save you.
4. Yeh ek choti is gatna hai. bade bade sheron mein aisa hota hee rahta hai.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by jrjrao »

FWIW, I tangled with two Wall Street Journal journos on Thursday.

First, they put out this utterly equal-equal drivel of a story:
Pressure Increases on Obama for a Regional Solution
By JAY SOLOMON and SIOBHAN GORMAN

The problem for Washington is that India and Pakistan remain at loggerheads...The conflict between India and Pakistan, both nuclear-armed states, has a way of overwhelming U.S. goals in the region.

...it is clear that Pakistan fears being surrounded by a three-way alliance of the U.S., India and Afghanistan, and the U.S.-India nuclear deal fed such fears. "We don't see the U.S. as a neutral broker anymore," said a senior Pakistani official. "We don't think this is how we should be repaid for our support in fighting al Qaeda."

Pakistan is sensitive to any signs that the U.S. is favoring India, especially as U.S.-Indian business ties deepen and the two countries cooperate on military matters. Pakistani officials have criticized the Bush administration for not placing a check on India's activities inside Afghanistan. New Delhi has opened dozens of consulates and trade offices across Afghanistan and secured lucrative road-building contracts along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border....

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122782332649762273.html
Write to Jay Solomon at jay.solomon@wsj.com and Siobhan Gorman at siobhan.gorman@wsj.com
So I emailed Solomon and Gormon this:
Subject: Unfortunate untruth in your article

Mr. Solomon and Mr. Gorman:

In your current article in the Wall Stree Journal web site titled:

Pressure Increases on Obama for a Regional Solution
By JAY SOLOMON and SIOBHAN GORMAN

you write this:

[begin quote]
New Delhi has opened dozens of consulates and trade offices across Afghanistan ...
[end quote]

This above statement is a long standing propagandist lie that we hear from the more extreme segment of Pakistani propagandists. And yet you have chosen to repeat it here.

I challenge you -- please research and then list all the "dozens of consulates" etc. that India has opened in Afghanistan.

That should not be hard -- consulates are not hidden entities. So go ahead, and list for me these "dozens" of consulates and trade offices that India has opened in Afghanistan.

Best regards,
Well, I got no reply, but within minutes, the WSJ story on the WSJ web site changed the offending phrase to:
New Delhi has opened a large number of consulates and trade offices across Afghanistan ...
Therefore, I sent another email:
Subject: Continued lies from you

Mr. Solomon and Mr. Gorman:

So I see that you have now modified your article after my earlier protest.

From saying that:

"New Delhi has opened DOZENS of consulates...."

your article now says:

" New Delhi has opened a LARGE NUMBER of consulates...."

it seems that you can't do some simple research to get at the truth for your article.

Well, here it is: India has (apart from its embassy in Kabul), only four other consulates in Afghanistan. They are in Kandhar, Jalalabad, Herat and Mazar-e-Sharif.

That is, count 'em, FOUR consulates.

Apparently, "FOUR" counts as a "large number of consulates" for you.

And regarding all this, Indians, and more rational others than yourself, would say that that is not at all unusual, considering the centuries old ties between Afghanistan and India.

But hey, don't let all this stop you from regurgitating the propaganda that you are being fed by Pakistani spokespersons.

I am surprised that the WSJ editors have let this canard stand in this current story on your web site.

Best regards,
Well, there is no further response or correction from Solomon et al.

At least Uneven was on TV saying that the Pakis have been wildly exaggerating India's presence in Afghanistan.

As I said, FWIW. Every bit helps in countering the lying Paki slimeball bakwasis (sorry for the multiply redundant adjectives).
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Baljeet »

JRJRAO
Good work. Bravo.

Naryanan
I agree with your sentiment but why wish pakis should rot in hell. Hell has place for our scoundrel netas. Pakis don't have to rot in hell we just have to capture them and make their lives hell right here such that hell begs for mercy from us.
Last edited by Baljeet on 01 Dec 2008 05:07, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by harbans »

I am in agreement with Asprinzl and Johann and they make valid points. Everything has to be scrutinized in a security operation or incident like this. In the circumstances this may have been the best, but better analysis will lead to slicker and more efficient future operations.

Another issue is in cases of such crises there must be a team monitoring movements of injured people, ID'ing them right to the hospitals they have been taken too. I also am not convinced there were 10 terrorists in all. If it took 9 hours for the NSG to fly in plans should have been made available on their arival. The head should have been looking at the plans and understanding the layout before even getting into the Taj.

These critics are not meant to disparage but understand that in every security operation there are ways to achieve better results. These are not undermining the bravery or competence of the soldiers, but management issues that can be improved.

PS: Jrao ji..Good work!
Last edited by harbans on 01 Dec 2008 05:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by rgsrini »

Guys. Stop the War!!!
We are screwed!!! The Kendo Stix brigade (Male version) has offered their full support to the government if war breaks out.

[url]ttp://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Tribal_leaders_vow_to_support_Pak_govt_against_India/articleshow/3777656.cms?TOI_latestnews[/url]
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Shreeman »

Menon to US, Rice to India. Anyone keeping track of chai biscuit stocks?
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by SaiK »

well.. we can attack from afghan and desh as well all at the same time!~ go figure bullahs!
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Rahul M »

unless russia vetoes ayni.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Shreeman »

Shreeman wrote:Menon to US, Rice to India. Anyone keeping track of chai biscuit stocks?
BTW, I hereby assert copy-e-right to the available notion of tactical-e-brilliance.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Baljeet »

The time has come for this nation and her citizen to put their head together and get some of the weapons in design phase to production phase.
1. Our own ABM system to be in place no later than 2010
2. Howitzers, rifles, LCA, radars, manpower, stockpile of 3 Million Tonnes of ammo in stock, anti tank missiles, arjun needs to be perfected and rushed to production.
3. ATVs put on fast track, new ships on fast track timeline 2010
4. Intel agencies to be regrouped, reoriented, well paid, well trained.Let them loose in pigland
5. Increase in our space based spook assets. **** Chandrayaans, mission to moon, mars and other galaxies, need of the hour is put some assets to work now.
6. Recruit, train, battle ready another 200k troops for all branches of military.
7. Cheat, Steal technology from anywhere to neutralize paki assets.
8. Get all missiles ready with Nukes loaded, test the veracity of all nukes.

2012
Another attack like this happens, we retialiate with full might, annihilate bangladesh and pakistan at the same time. Let the whole world do their R&D(Rona Dhona) they will all be thanking us privately.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Sanjay »

Baljeet, I agree more or less with you.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by a_kumar »

Baljeet wrote:The time has come for this nation and her citizen to put their head together and get some of the weapons in design phase to production phase.
1. Our own ABM system to be in place no later than 2010
2. Howitzers, rifles, LCA, radars, manpower, stockpile of 3 Million Tonnes of ammo in stock, anti tank missiles, arjun needs to be perfected and rushed to production.
3. ATVs put on fast track, new ships on fast track timeline 2010
4. Intel agencies to be regrouped, reoriented, well paid, well trained.Let them loose in pigland
5. Increase in our space based spook assets. **** Chandrayaans, mission to moon, mars and other galaxies, need of the hour is put some assets to work now.
6. Recruit, train, battle ready another 200k troops for all branches of military.
7. Cheat, Steal technology from anywhere to neutralize paki assets.
8. Get all missiles ready with Nukes loaded, test the veracity of all nukes.
Equally important is to ensure Pakistan Army doesn't get its lollipops. Shouldn't be difficult considering only money they have is pretty much from IMF.

But it cannot left for some western agencies to keep an eye on it, we have to actively ensure that Europe/US doesn't sell/gift weapons to Paki Army.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by disha »

Baljeet wrote:... Let the whole world do their R&D(Rona Dhona) they will all be thanking us privately.
I am glad that you are using the term I have coined. Cool! At least a quantum of solace for me.

BTW, the whole world is a big chateratti - the Japs, the EU, the Aussies and even the Massa. If you have the muscle - just show it, it will be respected. And it does not take much to change world opinion in your favour. Some billion dollar deals and they will come back like galien ke kuttey ... So yes, we should not care about the global R&Dh (Rona Dhona)...
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by SaiK »

He is just a brit police..
http://deccanherald.com/UserFiles/DHGal ... allery.jpg

Hope our police can catch up one day!
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Johann »

narayanan wrote:With incident reports coming in all over Mumbai, it made a lot of sense NOT to fly a large force into Mumbai airport without getting a clearer picture. As it is, they were one traffic light away from having the domestic terminal blown up. How tough would it have been for the Pakis to station a dinghy with a SAM-toting pig under the approach?

So once the terrorists were bottled up, it was a sure 24-hour wait, minimum. Larger forces sound good, until you think about the level of training needed. After all each state has an ATS - I presume that ATS training includes a lot of what the NSG had to do.
N,

The state ATS units from what I know are more oriented towards detecting, monitoring and breaking up cells - in other words, domestic intelligence in a police structure - Special Branch work.

You can have a the best people, trained to the highest standards, but they still need time, and they need information. Permanently stationing dedicated CT forces of the union govt in major metros, and making them responsible for planning for terrorist contingencies in their AOR is the only way to make that time, and gather that information before hand.

Tactical counter-terrorism is a very different skill-set, and you want a uniform, and very, very high standard, which is why it makes more sense to distribute a centrally raised force, rather than attempt to rely on states to get around to it themselves. We've seen the level of co-ordination of states in response to the Naxalite insurgency.
The idea that only 200 Indians exist, who can take on 4-th grade dropout 21-year-old terrorists from Pakistan, is utterly humiliating to contemplate, and quite wrong. The police and ATS would have got the hotels cleaned. In retrospect, no disrespect to the NSG, no particularly special skills were applied to flush them out, that only the NSG could have done.
(a) The NSG is quite a bit bigger than that, and can become bigger if necessary.

(b) These jihadis were murderers, but they were very well trained, well armed and well prepared murderers, certainly better armed, trained and prepped than the local police forces they faced.

Training, morale, etc should not be taken for granted - these reports from the photographer at the scene of the attack on the CST railway station, who wished he had a gun instead of a camera are very disturbing.

Now Im not suggesting that anyone who has the raw physical courage to pick up a rifle and charge in to gunfire is enough in such a situation either - wild gunfire could have certainly added to the civilian deathtoll there, just as the Beslan militia cost more lives than it saved. All the more reason why training counts.

It is *much* easier to expand and distribute a force, than to recreate from scratch the same culture, mindset and experience 28 times over.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by enqyoob »

I am all for helo-borne Special Forces, as you probably well know, Johann 8) given the traffic mess in most Indian cities, this is the best option. But I also think it is way too easy for the Pakis to smuggle in RPGs for precisely that eventuality. I was horrified at how long that helo had to hover so close above Nariman house! Had there been even one terrorist with an AK-47 that he could poke through a ventilator hole, that would have been a horrible disaster. One just has to close one's eyes and admire the raw courage of the crew and the NSG who came down from the craft, but it seems to be terribly dangerous tactics.

The other issue in this standoff is that anyone who understands Pakis (and even I) EXPECTED them to try to bring down the hotel. So that was why it wasn't a smart idea to storm the hotel and do a fast room-by-room, floor-by-floor sanitation. With 500 men inside, a blast would have multiplied the death toll by 2 in a few seconds. The terrorists were anyway heading for Houristan. I can't understand why they did not manage to blow up the hotel - I thought the blue bags contained RDX.

Overall, my strong opinion is that there is no "preventing" such attacks, except by going to the source and removing the capability. IOW, it still comes down to
Give Peace a Chance. "Reconstruct" Pakistan
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by SwamyG »

narayanan wrote: Overall, my strong opinion is that there is no "preventing" such attacks, except by going to the source and removing the capability. IOW, it still comes down to Give Peace a Chance. "Reconstruct" Pakistan
Exactly, there is going to be no dearth of misguided youth in 1+ billion population. It is impossible to address legitimate and perceived grievances. Best thing to do is curtail the access to weapons of mass destruction. Go to the source and dry it up. Let the misguided folks be content in poking each other with pencils.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Kanson »

Training, morale, etc should not be taken for granted - these reports from the photographer at the scene of the attack on the CST railway station, who wished he had a gun instead of a camera are very disturbing.
To people i spoke to, i conveyed the same message - those influential and affordable better own a personal weapon. If it destined to go down, better take the terrorist with you.
The state ATS units from what I know are more oriented towards detecting, monitoring and breaking up cells - in other words, domestic intelligence in a police structure - Special Branch work.
I think time to change the name from ATS to something else, if it so. It is a disturbing scene, few police personnel ( i persume it is ATS ) standing along with camera people, while the police vehicle took a U turn, didnt even attempted to ambush. They only fired in retalliation.

Second, i see lot of solutions to Pak prescribed here. Let me remind, these things couldnt happened without some local accomplice. What solution you have for these people ? You dont need, tanks, warplanes, to eradicate them. Do people/business house stand united to force the gov to act against these people or go on strike till these people are caught ? These are the biggest traitors. Lets clean the local house, before thinking abt Pak/BD. Ofcourse, we should teach Pak/BD who we are. It should be a pain in a$$, if not overt military thrust. No more velvet gloves.

And lastly, the fault lies everywhere. It is with the people too who are emerging only now asking politicians to go away. When there is strike and bandh for all sundry things why not any mass movement to force the governemnt for better security. This is the place prone for terrorist strike - if jammu can show the way, why not mumbai people ? How many times we have seen any public rehearsal involving both public and police on emergency response in a country which is constantly under terrorist attack for decades before 9/11.

As TATA Chariman put it, We are poor in Crisis managemet.
Last edited by Kanson on 01 Dec 2008 07:17, edited 1 time in total.
Sanjay
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Sanjay »

Vera_K, is there any specific Indian charity (with no pseudo-religious agenda) focussing on maternal/infant mortality and child malnutrition ? If there is I'd like to see what I can do.

SaiK,

That pic of the Brit cop reminds me that after 7/11 the only chap the esteemed Scotland Yard managed to shoot was a poor Brazilian !

However, take a look at what persists in Maharastra:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumb ... 776792.cms
John Snow
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by John Snow »

Actually we have lot of helo s , all CMs have one, SG may have a dozen while NSG may have (n)one.

Just folks imagine a small nuke, which leaves no radio activity (even) in cell phone frequencies and is detonated in a Indian city, our reaction would be same,

1) War will not achieve nothing
2) We have problems in our society which have caused this attack
3) Our second strike is a hoax at best as we will be discussing the merits of war. :mrgreen:

SO loss of life or damage to property, or violation of sovereignty is not a worthy cause for action against perpetrators.

:roll:
Kakkaji
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Kakkaji »

As a first step, at the very least, some of the CBMs of the past few years should be reversed, esp those that benefit mostly the Pakis. Some that come to my mind are:

1. Stop the passenger surface transport services (bus/ train) between India and Pakistan. Non-RAPE Pakis will have no legitimate means of travelling to India.
2. Stop all direct flights between Indian and Pakistani airports. Even for indirect flights, no Paki-registered aircraft should be allowed to land in India.
3. No ship that has touched a Paki port in its present voyage, should be allowed to dock at any port in India.
4. Stop granting visas to Pakis. Close the visa section in the Indian embassy and consulates in Pakistan. This measure along with (2) above will ensure the RAPE do not come to India for Puppy-Jhappy with WKK/ DIE.
5. No sports ties with Pakistan, in India or Pakistan or in third countries. This will stop the funding for Paki cricketers and other sportsmen.
6. Ban on appearance of any Pakis in any movies or television programs in India. No Paki actors/ participants in Indian shows, and no Paki commentators on Indian news channels.

An enemy has to be treated as an enemy. As we say in India "Don't feed milk to a poisonous snake".

Pakis must know that there can be no business as usual after this. Amirkhan pressure be damned.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Kanson »

Dilbu: This tells the story.
A programme was drafted for getting AK-47s and replacing obsolete weapons two years ago but it was not followed up seriously. Maharashtra, as a result, is the only state in India where most cops embark on sensitive operations with old weapons.
Ditto for bullet-proof jackets; cops here would like to sample the scientifically designed Koeffler jackets that can protect the body from any type of bullet and are used by the NSG and other commando forces the world over. But it is another article on a long wish-list.
If you are Mumbaikar, pls question the govn how good their ATS is ?
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by ramana »

I haven't heard of any reports of arrest of the Dawood network and any others involved. Are the all la pata? What is the street news in Mumbai?
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by ramana »

So MKN resignation was charade?

Why PMO refused NSA resignation

Show how sincere the PM is!
Why PMO declined NSA’s resignation?
Bhavna Vij-Aurora
New Delhi, November 30, 2008
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India Today expert view on
Why PMO declined NSA’s resignation?
* Tenures of intelligence body chiefs nearly up
* M.K. Narayanan to remain NSA

The much expected political fallout of the Mumbai terror attack started with Shivraj Patil quitting as the home minister, replaced by P. Chidambaram. No other major change was expected since the government also wanted some continuity in the ongoing investigations into the Mumbai attack.

More as a symbolic gesture, rather than a sincere intention, National Security Advisor (NSA) M.K. Narayanan also offered to resign but Prime Minister Manmohan Singh did not react to it.

Sources said that the PM was unlikely to act on it. “It was more of a gesture to express solidarity with the outgoing home minister so that the message goes out that the government was sincere in its efforts to bring about a change in the security and intelligence network,” said a senior government official.

Had the government accepted the NSA's resignation the position of Intelligence Bureau chief P.C. Haldar and R&AW chief Ashok Chaturvedi's position too would have become untenable.

There were also reports that Home Secretary Madhukar Gupta was also likely to quit but sources said that he would stay on for sometime to coordinate the investigations into Mumbai attack.


“It is not possible to have all new people in key positions at this juncture. Probably after some time, Chidambaram may want his own team but as of now Madhukar Gupta is likely to continue,” said the official.
Gupta was the turd who said we learn every time an attack happens!
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by arnab »

How about an imposition of a 'terror tax' on multinationals (or their subsidiaries) that have a presence in India and Pakistan? If their bottom lines hurt - they can choose to close their operations in Pakistan...or India.
Nokia, Mehran Suzuki, Atlas Honda, Shell, BHP come to mind offhand.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by SaiK »

Having weapons is one thing, and having a situation to use it entirely a different thing. no correlation here... And, having no weapons or something that is totally inferior is pathetic to counter pork.

Having NSG units in major cities is a welcome thing.. Having to improve radar coverage to track boats is important.. we have a huge coastline... this is a big investment. I would say, have a civilian IFF installed on all vessels.. This has to be a international effort to install on all ships and boats. This is mandatory first step, to detect those unregistered friendly foe. We can install long range BVR IFF sensors every 200-300Kms along the coast lines.

If this is done, there is a primary detection system setup for the seas.. Rest is all thru roads, samjuhata express lines, and fake passporkies. The most difficult porki is one with fake passport.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by SaiK »

arnab wrote:How about an imposition of a 'terror tax' on multinationals (or their subsidiaries) that have a presence in India and Pakistan? If their bottom lines hurt - they can choose to close their operations in Pakistan...or India.
Nokia, Mehran Suzuki, Atlas Honda, Shell, BHP come to mind offhand.
and they should be fools to come and setup an office paying 'terror tax'!.. get a life bud.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Kakkaji »

Barring unlimited and unending economic aid from US/ UK/ Europe/ China, the only 2 ways the Pakistani economy can survive over the long term are:

1. Increased trade with India, or
2. Conquest of the wealth of India, as they have managed in times past.

It is upto the people/ government of India to deny these 2 options to Pakistan. Then, with their increasing population, they will become an unmanageable economic burden for their sponsors who will eventually dump them.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Johann »

narayanan wrote:I am all for helo-borne Special Forces, as you probably well know, Johann 8) given the traffic mess in most Indian cities, this is the best option. But I also think it is way too easy for the Pakis to smuggle in RPGs for precisely that eventuality. I was horrified at how long that helo had to hover so close above Nariman house! Had there been even one terrorist with an AK-47 that he could poke through a ventilator hole, that would have been a horrible disaster. One just has to close one's eyes and admire the raw courage of the crew and the NSG who came down from the craft, but it seems to be terribly dangerous tactics.


N,

Yes, the Mi-17 was *very* vulnerable.

That is however where tactics do play a role - creating distractions on the ground, or maintaining helicopters in the air, out of range in order to mask the arrival of the assault team

In this case, as far as I know NSG personnel were already in position in houses around the Chabad centre before the assault team rappelled in, with a bead on every window on the house, so any Abdul who stuck his blessed head out to fire on the helicopter would have it blown off.

This was *very* dangerous (look at all the wires about), but not anywhere as dangerous as a similar assault on denied soil.

I mentioned helicopters in the previous post not necessarily as part of an assault, but to deliver CT forces to the scene in the most timely fashion possible - ie battle taxis, and in many cases overhead surveillance.
The other issue in this standoff is that anyone who understands Pakis (and even I) EXPECTED them to try to bring down the hotel. So that was why it wasn't a smart idea to storm the hotel and do a fast room-by-room, floor-by-floor sanitation. With 500 men inside, a blast would have multiplied the death toll by 2 in a few seconds. The terrorists were anyway heading for Houristan. I can't understand why they did not manage to blow up the hotel - I thought the blue bags contained RDX.
Yes, that was my worry too. I kept thinking about what happened in Madrid in 2004 when the Spanish counter terror police cornered the cell responsible for 3-11. It seemed much more likely to end with a big bang than a whimper

In my post on the earlier thread, my speculation was that the ISI types wanted this thing to be as drawn out as possible in order to maximise the damage to Bombay's international reputation. They didnt want to give these guys too much in the way of explosives for fear theyd rush to the 72 before the cameras got there.

Regardless of that, the fundamental issue here is not so much the tactical decisions of *when* to storm, or *how* to storm.

It is about giving tactical CT forces the time and information they need in order to make the decisions they deem most appropriate at the *earliest possible* juncture.

That requires a whole slew of changes, changes that I know have ben requested more than once in the past by Indian officers of various sorts who have to think about this sort of thing, but whose proposals were lost in the bureaucratic and political maze.
Overall, my strong opinion is that there is no "preventing" such attacks, except by going to the source and removing the capability. IOW, it still comes down to
Give Peace a Chance. "Reconstruct" Pakistan
Well until that happens, there still needs to be a robust and timely internal tactical CT set up. And even after Pakistan is dealt with, there is more than enough going on inside India to keep them busy.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Arjun »

http://www.latimes.com/news/printeditio ... 7039.story

Our very good friend is at it again. A very predictable article by nussby....Since these folks are insisting on doing an equal-equal despite all evidence to the contrary, I suggest we bring in christian terrorism in India (North-east, Maoists) into the mix and maybe even do a simple exercise of totting up the scores.
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