Should we discontinue EVMs?

[Rahul Mehta]

I am concerned about the local thug politicians rigging, to which the ballot is highly susceptible, and the EVM is completely immune. You aren't worried about that because you yourself are a politician, and looking at the dishonesty you have exhibited, I even tend to think that you WANT it to be locally riggable.

So, my POV is clear. Ballot or EVM, they are both equally difficult to rig by the CIA. Ballot is infinitesimally easier to rig by a local thug politician, while EVM is practically immune.

Which would I take? I take the latter!

Wrong. CIA can rig 200 BUs in 400 seats each with CEC, PM, HomeSec, BEL chief, some 80 ware-house agents and 10 field agents. Whereas to rig so many ballots, CIA would need 1000s of criminals and each criminal will be facing risks. So paper is far far more difficult for CIA.


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As per paper, I propose following changes

1. Put camera in all booths (sensitive booths first) which have mobile connectivity and send pix every 30 sec to control room's server, so that ANY citizen for a fee can monitor that booth.

2. Make all offenses done on polling pay tried in fast track court only (with Jury)

3. Increase deposit to Rs 100,000 (three times per capita M3). So number of candidates will be 6-8.

4. Polling in entire in India in one day.

5. Counting starts next day or next to next day.

With this ballot stuffing becomes difficult and ballot replacing also becomes difficult.

[Rahul Mehta]

Dileep,

If local presiding officer agrees to rig poll, EVM is not immune. He can let a person punch 600 buttons. That would take 600/5= 120 minutes = 2 hrs. It can be split over whole day.

And if local presiding officer does not co-operate, paper too cant be rigged. At the end of the poll, the presiding officer has to certify that poll was done without force. If he refuses, there is a re-poll in next 1-2 days. Plus, the presiding officer has to give ballots with his sign at back.

Only thing EVM buys is a limit of 20 seconds between two votes. That can be obtained using stamping of ballot. The ballot has to be stamped by a stamping machine in booth, which will stamp only once every 20 seconds. This with camera-in-booth will solve the rigging problem for good.

If all you want is "20 seconds distance" between two ballots, EVM is NREGS for BEL and nothing more.

It helps to solve easy problem in easy ways rather than use hi-tech, IT, and electronics all the time.

[Dileep]

1. The inspection is superficial and checking of external tags only. They dont open the BU and check PCB, chips etc. Even if they do, the naked eye examination wont tell anything.

Why not? You need at least a cell phone sized radio, with links to the cable and the keypad. That would readily show up on an inspection.

a. The rigged BUs came from CEC warehouse. Over 100,000 BUs were sent from CEC warehouse to Districts after Dec-2008. May be 200,000. So that does not any forging of signatures. Forging of signatures need when rigged BUs are to be replaced by real BUs after counting is over.

I asked you for proof of CEC sending the EVMS to the districts. What is the logistics of delivery of the EVMs? Do they get shipped to a CEC warehouse? Or does BEL deliver the machines to the district. Get the iproof before you claim things.

b. CEC can forge "complaints from voters" and send his men to examine EVMs. They can break the seals in the name of checking. So when agents come to replace BUs, they dont have to forge anything. CEC can also ask DC to send those EVMs back to CEC warehouse to repairs. In the name of repairs, he can break all seals and then no forgery is needed.

How many such complaints were received? How many of them were resolved by taking the EVMs out? I am saying none, or a very insignificant number. Even when there is a complaint, a court order is needed to open the EVMS. See the handbook for details on how the machines are sealed and stored back at the district.

According to the rules, the machines can be accessed only on two conditions. For the next poll, or under a court order. EVMS are not recalled for repair from those stored after the election, because they are REQUIRED to be kept as it is. The only repair happens after the inspection and testing at the time of the next poll.

c. Even if BUs are to be replaced in District Warehouse, how many men are needed? Say each District has 1500 EVMs of which 200 are rigged. In first visit, 2 warehouse agents take out 50 BUs and next night keep 50 real ones back with the forged signatures, and take another 50 rigged BUs out. So they need only 5 visits. So with 2 agents, 5 nights and all 200 BUs in district warehouses are replaced with newly forged seals. (As if anyone has countersign to check them if need arises). So with 80 agents, I can cover 480 District warehouses on 60 days.

Yes, while everyone else involved is sleeping. You make regular nightly visits to a place that is not supposed to be accessed. That happens only in RahulWorld.

d. CEC can use mix to (b) and (c). Say 80,000 BUs are rigged in 400 seats. about 200 in each seat. In places like AP where most DCs are CIA agents, he can send warehouse agents. And in places like Gujarat where DC may not yet be a full CIA agent, he will recall EVMs for testing.

EC can't recall the machines. EC Can't access the storage without the help from the DC, his personal staff, and the officer in charge of the storage and his staff.

4. I already said that activation via remote would need field agent, but not more than 10-12 national wide. Each agent goes to district warehouse AFTER candidate number is given. He inputs date, candidate number and number etc and all rigged BUs in district warehouses will be set to add N extra votes to that candidate on polling day. There is no risk, as he is not coming even 10 meters close to BU. It will take him say 1-2 hours per LS seat (1 LS seat = 1 warehouse). So in one day, he can activate 3-4 districts. In 15 days, he can activate 60 sets of BUs, one seat in each LS seat. So to activate 400 LS seats' BUs, I need no more than 10 field agents.

There is this little problem there. Radios don't work inside a closed metal box. Close your cell phone inside an old fashioned metal trunk box and call it. See if it works.

Lately, I see that you dont make logistic based arguments which you rightly did in case of cable or trojan theories etc. You restrict to sarcasm throwing and insult throwing ("in RahulWorld only") etc. I take that as sign of frustration --- you cant show that BU replacement is logistically impossible and so have resorted to sarcasms and insults to cover it. This is not first time. All anti-RM elements are known to show this tendencies. I can throw similar sarcasms (eg Cant CIA bribe CEC? Cant CIA bribe MMS? Cant CIA have 100 field agents? In DileepWorld only ). But I would like to confine to showing logistic/technical details, give corresponding estimates and let the adversaries show where estimates are wrong. Sarcasm throwing is not my cup of tea.

You are entitled to your opinions, your cup of tea, and you are welcome to throw sarcasms or abuses as you please. I make my points in my way and style.

Your whole arguments are built on false premises that are already dismissed. I indulge in a point by point refutal because you are using a well known technique in disinformation which is to keep on building on the false premises. People focus on the current buildup, forgetting that it is based on false premises.

You happen to be an expert in that technique. The only way to defeat that is to refute each and every argument, along with repeated disection of the false premises. I am trying to do that. I was never a good debater myself, but I seem to be having some success here.

I don't believe in CIA is out there to rig all the constituencies. They have much simpler, reliable, and cheaper ways to influence the govt. I am concerned about the rigging by the local thug politicians like you. EVM is a great defense against that, hence I support them.

Pakis are kept under control by the "Indians are coming" scare. You are trying the "CIA is coming" scare. I have seen the commies use it. They still do it sometimes, but people started laughing at them already.

I shall do whatever I can to destroy the malafide attack on the EVMS based on ulterior motives.

[Dileep]

Wrong. CIA can rig 200 BUs in 400 seats each with CEC, PM, HomeSec, BEL chief, some 80 ware-house agents and 10 field agents. Whereas to rig so many ballots, CIA would need 1000s of criminals and each criminal will be facing risks. So paper is far far more difficult for CIA.

It is YOU who is raising the CIA scare, not me. I know CIA have much better, more reliable, and cheaper ways to control the govt. They don't need to rig the votes. I know the method you suggest is not practical, and with certainity of getting uncovered.

You are weaseling out from my argument.

You, as a politician, are unhappy that you can't rig the vote, like you were able to with the ballot. That is the only reason why you raise the totally unviable CIA scare.

Answer this straight. Which is easy to rig locally? The ballot or EVM? Do you want to debate that with me?

[Dileep]

Dileep,
If local presiding officer agrees to rig poll, EVM is not immune. He can let a person punch 600 buttons. That would take 600/5= 120 minutes = 2 hrs. It can be split over whole day.

No. The PO can't do it. He needs co-operation from the other polling staff, the agents, police and local people. Then there are poll observers roaming around.

And if local presiding officer does not co-operate, paper too cant be rigged. At the end of the poll, the presiding officer has to certify that poll was done without force. If he refuses, there is a re-poll in next 1-2 days. Plus, the presiding officer has to give ballots with his sign at back.

PO alone CAN help rig paper ballots. He can do nothing with EVM. Even without PO's help, ballot stuffing can be done. People can even sneak in a bunch of ballots into the counting table. Nothing can be done with EVM locally. NOTHING.

[Rahul Mehta]

Is BU a plastic box or metal box? If metal box, then rigged BU would need some small holes large enough to let radio waves pass. That is only a roadblocker, not show stopper.

I just kept my mobile inside metal safe inside metal cupboard, and it did ring when I called. IIRC, if there is even small gaps, radio waves will sneak it. And the data to be sent is small, not large. So radio-activation has no tech-logistic issues. The rigged BUs can have small holes. And if they are plastic, the issue does not arise at all.

The ONLY issue is replacing those 20000-more BUs out from District warehouse in 60 days of time, some 50-200 BUs per seat. In states like AP, TN etc I dont see that as an issue. All DCs are corrupt to core. So may be CEC sent to only those states where DCs are proven CIA agents like AP.

It is YOU who is raising the CIA scare, not me. I know CIA have much better, more reliable, and cheaper ways to control the govt. They don't need to rig the votes. I know the method you suggest is not practical, and with certainity of getting uncovered.

Yes, I am the one who raised CIA scare. And replace Congress by CIA, and much the scare is valid. And many here do believe that CIA (CIA = CIA + MNCs + Missionary) do want Congress to win as Congress is far more pro-CIA. I take CIA, MNCs, Missionaries and Congress as one entity. Take whichever label you want.

There are people who believe that US wishes well for India, and I wont dispute their shraddhaa. And this thread is not about whether CIA wanted to rig elections or not. It is about : if CIA or Congress wanted to add 20000 votes in 400 seats by replacing BUs or otherwise, how many people they need? The topic at hand is how vulnerable EVMs are large scale attack from top.

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Which is easy to rig locally? The ballot or EVM?

In case you missed, I proposed ballot stamping by a stamper which has 20 second delay. With this , for a local MP, EVM and paper ballots are at par. And I proposed camera-in-booth (and so did Pranav, another papervaadi). This makes booth level rigging impossible in both cases.

And I would be less worried about 3-10 criminals getting in with 500 others. But CIA engineering victories of 100-150 MPs is absolutely un-allowable.

[Dileep]

Is BU a plastic box or metal box? If metal box, then rigged BU would need some small holes large enough to let radio waves pass. That is only a roadblocker, not show stopper.

BU is a metal box, but that is not the problem. It is the carrying case and storage box.

I just kept my mobile inside metal safe inside metal cupboard, and it did ring when I called. IIRC, if there is even small gaps, radio waves will sneak it. And the data to be sent is small, not large. So radio-activation has no tech-logistic issues. The rigged BUs can have small holes. And if they are plastic, the issue does not arise at all.

Placing a cell phone inside a godrej steel cupboard will leave it "out of range" normally. I have tested that myself some time ago.

The ONLY issue is replacing those 20000-more BUs out from District warehouse in 60 days of time, some 50-200 BUs per seat. In states like AP, TN etc I dont see that as an issue. All DCs are corrupt to core. So may be CEC sent to only those states where DCs are proven CIA agents like AP.

It is your word that all DCs are corrupt, and you are probably the last man on the planet whose word I would trust. If TN DC is corrupt, I am sure much of them would be in favour of the fat lady. If some DCs who are in favour of the DMK, why not the other half od AIADMK DCs raise hell? Like they don't know what is possible?

That is the beauty of the system isn't it? If one DC is in the pocket of Congress, there is another in the pocket of BJP, and yet others in the pocket of other parties. People talk. Things leak.

NONE happened in the case of the last election. None at all.

There are people who believe that US wishes well for India, and I wont dispute their shraddhaa. And this thread is not about whether CIA wanted to rig elections or not. It is about : if CIA or Congress wanted to add 20000 votes in 400 seats by replacing BUs or otherwise, how many people they need? The topic at hand is how vulnerable EVMs are large scale attack from top.

I am not among them. The US, and the people in US, including those run that country, have no favours to India. In fact most hate India from the cold war memories. The US will do whatever it can to influence India, including bribing politicians.

What I am saying is that direct action rigging of elections is not one of the means. It is extremely difficult to pull off, it is guaranteed to get uncovered by leaks, and it is too expensive. The US have tried, and massively screwed up on stuff that is a million times simpler than what you claim. Your claims are similar like the classic case of balancing a cone on its sharp end. Theoritically possible, but practically impossible.

I am not willing to loose the enormous benefits in security offered by the EVMS, based on the scares that you try to propagate. It is like driving a car. I know it is dangerous, but I do it because of the obvious advantages.

In case you missed, I proposed ballot stamping by a stamper which has 20 second delay. With this , for a local MP, EVM and paper ballots are at par. And I proposed camera-in-booth (and so did Pranav, another papervaadi). This makes booth level rigging impossible in both cases.

Ballot stamper? How difficult it is to make another polymer stamp and go ka-chak,ka-chak manually? You make all those cock-a-mamie scenarios, and you can't figure out as much?

Since you have tactfully moved on to future possibilities:

I support any additional security means without sacrificing the simplicity and efficiency of the current EVM. I am fine as long as the recording and counting of the votes are electronic, with any paper trail serving as back-up/verification.

One idea I have is to have a roll of paper, like the paper tape used in old typesetters. Once the vote is cast, a hole is punched on the tape at the column corresponding to the vote cast. The punched row then moves to a glass window, through which the voter can see the hole. The paper rolls onto a take-up roll and is left in the BU after the poll. A 5 mm dia hole made on a 10 cm wide paper strip can easily do it.

[Virupaksha]

I support any additional security means without sacrificing the simplicity and efficiency of the current EVM. I am fine as long as the recording and counting of the votes are electronic, with any paper trail serving as back-up/verification.

just some ignorant questions. What is so special about current EVMs?

Cant it be a system like we had EAMCET and others(when I wrote, today's system I dont know). You know sort of hybrid of dotting on paper with marker or paper which is deleted, which can be counted by machine or by physically verified if needed, like the one you described just now

What is so special of recording and counting electronic?

One idea I have is to have a roll of paper, like the paper tape used in old typesetters. Once the vote is cast, a hole is punched on the tape at the column corresponding to the vote cast. The punched row then moves to a glass window, through which the voter can see the hole. The paper rolls onto a take-up roll and is left in the BU after the poll. A 5 mm dia hole made on a 10 cm wide paper strip can easily do it.

but what happened to your tree-hugging theories, I pooch?

[Dileep]

just some ignorant questions. What is so special about current EVMs?

Cant it be a system like we had EAMCET and others(when I wrote, today's system I dont know). You know sort of hybrid of dotting on paper with marker or paper which is deleted, which can be counted by machine or by physically verified if needed, like the one you described just now

What is so special of recording and counting electronic?

So that the local thugs can't rig it.

There are systems where you insert the ballot into a machine and punch a hole in the paper. Counting is by passing the paper through a reader.

The local thugs can easily rig that. Anything not electronic is.

but what happened to your tree-hugging theories, I pooch?

It takes just 5 sq cm paper for the record.

[Tanaji]

Your whole arguments are built on false premises that are already dismissed. I indulge in a point by point refutal because you are using a well known technique in disinformation which is to keep on building on the false premises. People focus on the current buildup, forgetting that it is based on false premises.

You happen to be an expert in that technique. The only way to defeat that is to refute each and every argument, along with repeated disection of the false premises. I am trying to do that. I was never a good debater myself, but I seem to be having some success here.

This should be highlighted. This is the precise reason why most of us are replying to the utter tripe that has been posted by Rahul Mehta.

[Tanaji]

I did not say that BU had GPRS interface which would need ISP or cell company or networking stack. Even that is possible, but I would not prefer that.

In the BU replacement theory , warehouse agents replaced BU with rigged BU, that looked like BU from outside and also much of inside. The remote inside rigged BU had RF (about 20m to 30m range) interface. So a field agent will need to go about 20 meters close to BU anytime after candidate number was given. The field agent with compatible RF device would input date and preferred candidate number and the rigged BU would add votes to that candidate on that date. RF can also work across walls.

More inane theories from you. In theory, yes, you can attach a radio interface to the EVM. The operative words being "in theory". In theory you can attach a rocket engine to EVM as well: CIA has access to guidance systems as well, so they can make the EVM fly to their office at Langley.

The question is of feasibility and whether it can be done without detection. For attaching a radio interface, you need to open the CU, identify the existing connects on the PCB, solder the connections of the PCB hosting the radio interface to the existing BU's PCB. It is very unlikely that there would be space inside the CU to attach an additional PCB. Next you need to sort out power requirements for your radio interface, because that will consume battery. Add to that fact that you need to sort out your antenna requirements and hiding the antenna.
Now you need to close the EVM in a manner that the change is not noticeable (assuming you can everything fit). After your work is done, you need to desolder your stuff and put the EVM back in without anyone noticing.

Possible in RahulWorld where time, space and physics laws dont apply.

[Tanaji]

Anyway, I have shown that :

1. with as few as 8 warehouse agents and 10-12 field agents nationwide who face zero risk and with co-operation of CEC, PM, Home-Secretary : 20,000 BUs can be replaced and replaced back leaving no proofs. I dont need DCs to co-operate till counting ends. The co-operation of DCs is needed AFTER counting ends, and with HomeSec co-operating, they can be threatened to shut up.

2. with as few as 80 warehouse agents and 10-12 field agents nationwide who will face zero risk and with co-operation of CEC, PM, Home-Secretary : 200,00 BUs can be replaced and replaced back leaving no proofs

You have shown precisely *nothing*. Just because you make a statement without regards to its mathematical, physical or practical feasibility doesnt mean that it is true. What you have engaged in is putting out one theory after the other using whatever technical jargon you can think of in a pathetic attempt to make it look credible. Each of your theories has been shot down and proven to be either mathematically false (hash functions) or fanciful (solder - desolder for cable replacement or remote interface) or a complete lack of understanding of the complexities involved.

IF this is the basis for your saying "proved", I have no further comments.

[Dileep]

Tanaji,

Most sensible people know that the scenarios proposed by RM are far fetched. He will be laughed at if he takes them to public media.

He knows that.

If at all he goes to the public media, he will just make statements like "EVMs are susceptible to massive rigging by external sources", without giving any details. His IIT and the "software business" credentials will give credibility to them. All he need to take care there is to not open the underlying scenario. If he does, he will be booed off the stage.

He is smart enough to avoid that.

He is trying to get as much information and pointers as possible, at our expense. He looses nothing by debating here, but gains a lot of technical insight and information to be used when he goes to public. I am fine with that. We too got into the nooks and crannies of the EVM ourselves, so that we now have solid technical backing ourselves. I have enough stuff to write an article, or participate in a real debate. Good.

I wish everything comes to open. Each piece of scenario. Each vulnerability. Let the EC, BEL, ECIL and whatnot defend their creation.

We will have more fun.

[Tanaji]

Agree, not to mention that so far Rahul Mehta has been completely ignored by the media. He needs a sound byte that will get the media buzzing... so far his antics regards jury system are not news worthy, he is regarded as a kook.

But the EVM thing is in the news, and is a gold mine for him. He will milk it for all its worth. Dont be surprised if you see him spouting off on some third rate news channel and appearing as an "expert " on IT and declaring how "TRIVIAL" it is to hack EVMs. Heck, he will even trot out his Rutgers degree with his "roll number" along with technical jargon to buttress his claims.

And the media will lap it all up, RM will get his 2 minutes of fame. He will finally earn his pay with the local netas that find it hard to rig EVMs.

[Virupaksha]

Agree, not to mention that so far Rahul Mehta has been completely ignored by the media. He needs a sound byte that will get the media buzzing... so far his antics regards jury system are not news worthy, he is regarded as a kook.

But the EVM thing is in the news, and is a gold mine for him. He will milk it for all its worth. Dont be surprised if you see him spouting off on some third rate news channel and appearing as an "expert " on IT and declaring how "TRIVIAL" it is to hack EVMs. Heck, he will even trot out his Rutgers degree with his "roll number" along with technical jargon to buttress his claims.

And the media will lap it all up, RM will get his 2 minutes of fame. He will finally earn his pay with the local netas that find it hard to rig EVMs.

Tanaji,

I think that is crossing of the line in your barrage of personal insults. You have always the option of ignoring him. Why dont you use it?

[Sanku]

^^ Dileep et Al -- Satya Vachan

[Tanaji]

I think that is crossing of the line in your barrage of personal insults. You have always the option of ignoring him. Why dont you use it?

The post that you quoted does not insult him, except calling him a kook. I dont know what other epithet you would call a person who trots out the theories he has.

But you are right, I have been disrespectful of him in my posts. If you have followed my posts in my time on BR, you will notice that I have never been so, and in fact even on this thread my attitude to other EVM opponents has been definitely not insulting.

But when someone repeatedly posts ludicrous theories inspite of them being shot down, posts things that are mathematically and scientifically impossible all with a straight face in a serious discussion, the limits get crossed. AS others have said, Rahul is dangerously close to be a troll, and for all purposes he may be.

But I will try to lay off the actual insults. Instead of calling him stupid, I will refer to him as "monumentally unable to digest and understand established opinion".

[Virupaksha]

just some ignorant questions. What is so special about current EVMs?

Cant it be a system like we had EAMCET and others(when I wrote, today's system I dont know). You know sort of hybrid of dotting on paper with marker or paper which is deleted, which can be counted by machine or by physically verified if needed, like the one you described just now

What is so special of recording and counting electronic?

So that the local thugs can't rig it.

There are systems where you insert the ballot into a machine and punch a hole in the paper. Counting is by passing the paper through a reader.

The local thugs can easily rig that. Anything not electronic is.

So you are saying that local thugs cannot press a button with a gap of 8 seconds. So the gap of minimum 8-10 seconds between votes is the deterrence for these people?

I assumed that the security detail and other stuff is the same for all types of voting systems.

[Sanku]

So you are saying that local thugs cannot press a button with a gap of 8 seconds. So the gap of minimum 8-10 seconds between votes is the deterrence for these people?

I assumed that the security detail and other stuff is the same for all types of voting systems.

Well Ravi clearly you have not seen the vote printing system that is used during booth capturing. In most case prestamped ballots are pushed into the box either at the beginning or at the end of the poll (may or may not be at gun point), or some time during the poll.

NO trace what so ever stays of such ballot.

[Virupaksha]

So you are saying that local thugs cannot press a button with a gap of 8 seconds. So the gap of minimum 8-10 seconds between votes is the deterrence for these people?

I assumed that the security detail and other stuff is the same for all types of voting systems.

Well Ravi clearly you have not seen the vote printing system that is used during booth capturing. In most case prestamped ballots are pushed into the box either at the beginning or at the end of the poll (may or may not be at gun point), or some time during the poll.

NO trace what so ever stays of such ballot.

That is why I am trying to learn what exactly is stopping these people from trying to rig for themselves in the case of EVMs as some people are mentioning that EVMs CANNOT be rigged by thugs and so on.

[Rahul Mehta]

Tanaji,

You have lately started spewing out too much of RM-bashing garbage. Thats not new, but quantity has increased. I will ignore that and answer some relevant questions you had.

---

For attaching a radio interface, you need to open the CU, identify the existing connects on the PCB, solder the connections of the PCB hosting the radio interface to the existing BU's PCB. It is very unlikely that there would be space inside the CU to attach an additional PCB. Next you need to sort out power requirements for your radio interface, because that will consume battery. Add to that fact that you need to sort out your antenna requirements and hiding the antenna. Now you need to close the EVM in a manner that the change is not noticeable (assuming you can everything fit). After your work is done, you need to desolder your stuff and put the EVM back in without anyone noticing.

In BU replacement theory, CU is left untouched . Existing BU is not opened, but existing BU is replaced with another BU. The new BU has RF interface to accept candidate number, poll date etc.

Some 100,000 new EVMs were made in Jan-2009. If these EVMs came in CEC warehouse, Chawala got these BUs replaced with this rigged BU. The engineers who made this new BUs knew CU key codes and so new BUs worked with CU. Replacing these BUs over 4 weeks in CEC warehouse would only need 10-20 warehouse agents. Activating them later would need 10-12 field agents nation wide, not more. There is no soldering. There is no changing of existing box.

And after counting, rigged BUs were replaced with real BUs. That would need DC and local gatekeepr to look aside, and let 2 agents enter 5 mights and replace the 200-250 rigged BU with real ones. All DCs have so many cases against them, that if HomeSec asks them to look aside or face CBI inquiry, he will look aside. HomeSec (union) is assumed to be Congress agents and he would co-operate. So with 80 agents working 60 days, you can replace all rigged BUs with real ones.

The power requirement of radio listening chips these days is too tiny. Some chips take power from radio signals itself !! Radio receiving and "listening" does not need much power, in fact, it can be done with near ZERO power. Only sending needs power. And here, amount of data transfer is not huge and repeated. Few bytes of data is transferred only once before poll starts and then there is no communication. The BU has to listen once every 10-15 minutes. If it gets the required signal, it will send ACK back. Antena is not a problem these days. Some 10 mm antenna are good for communicating few bytes over 20-50 meters. BU battery has enough power for that. So making such BU is possible.

In case you notice, Dileep does not contest that such BU cant made or cant be activated in field. He is only focusing on the fact "CIA agents can replace those BUs after counting is over".

-----------

Dileep,

Even if some rigged BUs are still in District Warehouse, it is not a problem. What can you do? kyaa ukhaad loge? Order an audit? That is less scary that making scary faces. Say some 70,000 out of 700,000 BUs are rigged. You form a committee that decided to test 2% i.e. 14000 machines. Say they randomly select 14000 serial numbers from 700,000 serial numbers. Then some 1400 serial numbers will correspond to rigged BU. The committee will replace those 1400 with serial numbers of unrigged BUs. So all BUs will be fine. What do you get from such an audit? In fact, SCjs will soon order an audit and that audit will decisively prove that EVMs are honest. SCjs have done many such drama in past - one more.

IOW, the corrupt SCjs who accept the PIL will appoint the auditors who are as corrupt as Chawala. These auditors will ensure that only unrigged BUs get examined. Now will auditors sell out? Heard of PwC, the most honest auditors in India? Or did you know of Arthur Anderson, the most honest auditors in US? So if you claim that BU cannot be pulled out of District warehouse, then here is more scary part --- they can be used to rig even next election and even next elections. And no HCj, SCj is going to bother. (In case you think that judges are honest, read the recent BMW-Nanda judgment)

So "replacing rigged BUs with real BUs in District warehouse is difficult" makes no dent in BU replacement theory , given that no auditor will touch those rigged EVMs.

[Rahul Mehta]

Well Ravi clearly you have not seen the vote printing system that is used during booth capturing. In most case prestamped ballots are pushed into the box either at the beginning or at the end of the poll (may or may not be at gun point), or some time during the poll.

NO trace what so ever stays of such ballot.

At the end of poll, if the presiding officer says that poll was rigged, poll is canceled and re-poll happens in 2-3 days. So no one can get booth rigged at gun point. The gun point is used to keep OTHERS away, not scare the presiding officer at booth. And sign of presiding officer is needed at the back of the ballot. Otherwise the ballot is canceled at counting time.

And still, we can put camera in booth that send pix to servers every 30 seconds. Such camera with mobile connectivity will cost no more than Rs 3000 in bulk. Cheaper than EVMs and less prone to rigging.

----------

Shiv,

Many moons ago, you asked how you can rig the EVM to be used in some local private club election . Well, you can get a duplicate BU gives more votes to you candidates and candidate numbers can be sent with RF remote. And you would also need key in CU to ensure that duplicate BU works with CU that came. You will need to get that BU replaced with real BU sometime before election starts. And after counting is over, put the real BU back. If you just want to rig one club election, it may not be worth the price, and it may be cheaper to buy that club. But if you want to rig 10000 club elections, it is worth the deal.

.

[Dileep]

Your RF module will be at least the size of a cell phone. You need a processor, similar to a phone. Then you need an interface circuit that house relays to connect, byepass and simulate key presses. That will be 32 relays, two each per keypad. You will need power for that. You will have to keep relays energized during the period of faking. That is because you will have to byepass the tap in normal use. It is going to take some good amount of power to drive all those. The BU is not powered.

So, you will need a good battery as well. It is going to be pretty big contraption.

[Tanaji]

In case you notice, Dileep does not contest that such BU cant made or cant be activated in field. He is only focusing on the fact "CIA agents can replace those BUs after counting is over".

Neither am I. As I said you can attach a rocket engine as well.

[Dileep]

So "replacing rigged BUs with real BUs in District warehouse is difficult" makes no dent in BU replacement theory , given that no auditor will touch those rigged EVMs.

If you can replace the BUs with impunity, you can replace the CUs also with impunity right? Why did you drop that argument?

Just like I do not accept the premise that CIA is out there to rig, I also don't take the premise that all DCs are corrupt.

Everything is possible in RahulWorld.

[Muppalla]

The ballot paper system is the real reasons for some most thugish leaders of India to survive and florish. I can put reams of examples since my childhood in a very detailed manner how the system was subverted. In my opinion, it is not a system to go back. I don't want to waste my time and I have written few on the Election thread.

India's EVMs are the best in the lot to go forward. However it is important to create public trust with open and "on demand" validations and verifications. It is important to put all the lists of vendors and external entities used in manufacture and maintenance.

They need keep improving them and close any loopholes (real and percieved).

Dileep,
A request - Could you write a summary of what is possible to subvert EVMs technically (even if it is a long shot) that does not need too many people from EC, districts etc. Anything that involves more people from various locations is not even a long shot and in India it will get on to the newspapers. Folks like me lost the track becasue of you know what is going on here.
Thanks

[Dileep]

In case you notice, Dileep does not contest that such BU cant made or cant be activated in field. He is only focusing on the fact "CIA agents can replace those BUs after counting is over".

Neither am I. As I said you can attach a rocket engine as well.

Well, I will only raise arguments that I believe in.

I don't think any of RMs scenarios are workable. All the cock-a-mamie schemes are impossible to pull off.

But a logical, or logistical impossibility doesn't happen in RahulWorld. All those arguments are already made, and the sensible people understood them. Only TECHNICAL impossibilities seem to deter the circuits of RM, so I am restricting myself to that.

It is "technically" possible to design a radio receiver, a controller, and a ralay matrix that can be inserted between the BU connector and BU keypad/LED interface. The controller can either leave the keypad connected in the regular fashion, or use relays to disconnect the keypad and connect it to the controller, and at the same time connect another relay to the points where the keypad was connected. Now, as a key is pressed on the keypad, the controller can activate a relay and vote another row.

You will need two multi-contact relays per row, ie 32 relays in the BU. The normal keypad and LED circuit should be wired through the normally closed position. When in "rigging" node, the relays should be kept energized, and the second relay used to vote the fake candidate. this relay should be energized for a sufficiently long time, till the LED feedback goes out. That is needed because you need to fake the LED as well.

The only technical problem with that is the size and power consumption. You will need a good battery for that. Even if you use micro relays, that is still 5-10mA coil current, leading to 80-160 mA idling current and 3.3v. You will need a pretty big battery to support that, in the tune of 2000 mAH minimum.

[Sanku]

NO trace what so ever stays of such ballot.

That is why I am trying to learn what exactly is stopping these people from trying to rig for themselves in the case of EVMs as some people are mentioning that EVMs CANNOT be rigged by thugs and so on.

Well the EVMs just cant work on a "dump in a lot of votes in a short span of time" mode. A thug will spend the better part of the day doing that. Even if you get PO in picture.

And you will need lots of thugs, one per machine, in the manual system one thug can do the trick, a lot of preparation can be done before the polling day.

[Dileep]

Dileep,
A request - Could you write a summary of what is possible to subvert EVMs technically (even if it is a long shot) that does not need too many people from EC, districts etc. Anything that involves more people from various locations is not even a long shot and in India it will get on to the newspapers. Folks like me lost the track becasue of you know what is going on here.
Thanks

If I write, that will be about what is NOT possible, because I am yet to see a vulnerability that could be exploited without compromising a large number of people.

[Dileep]

In a nutshell, the ONLY way to subvert an EVM is to replace a fake unit that looks exactly like a real one, with a radio receiver controller for "activation", and to take it back after the polls.

That would be despite:

1. The difficulties in manufacturing the large number of fakes.
2. The difficulties of swapping them with the good ones before they are "commissioned" for the poll.
3. The difficulties of swapping them again, with all the "seals and stickers" faithfully faked.

Secure enough for me!

[Rahul Mehta]

Your RF module will be at least the size of a cell phone. You need a processor, similar to a phone. Then you need an interface circuit that house relays to connect, byepass and simulate key presses. That will be 32 relays, two each per keypad. You will need power for that. You will have to keep relays energized during the period of faking. That is because you will have to byepass the tap in normal use. It is going to take some good amount of power to drive all those. The BU is not powered. So, you will need a good battery as well. It is going to be pretty big contraption.

The RF in new BU is not taking inputs from cell phone towers, but only some sources which are just a few meters away. If a small RF unit has to send/receive a few bytes to/from a big RF unit a few meters away, the energy small one would need is negligiblel. (eg RFID circuits do radio communication without any battery). From the source which is handled by field agent near EVM, it would take candidate number, polling date etc and stores it in small flash. Such circuit will not take more than 1 inch * 1 inch max on PCB. If one opens a BU and looks at PCB with hand lens, he may smell fish. But opening BU was not done during the election process.

People have done 100 times more complex things than implementing BU I mentioned. So I wont discuss "can duplicate BUs be made" issue further.

----

I have not "dropped" CU replacement, but given it lesser rank. CU stores data and to put back real CU, one has to put that data too. The BU-only replacement is clean, as BU has no data. So BU-replacement theory has better rank. As such, I have not dropped CU replacement theory.

I am also looking for parts of cable or things around cable that can be rigged . If you see the CU, there is female socket which is to be attached with cable connector. I am thinking that one can put a male-female connector, just a few mm thick on top of that socket. I can tell more after I see more CU pix, nothing so far.

---

Ravi_Ku,

The reason Tanaji, Sanku et al are throwing insults is that they hope that I will throw insults back. And then they can run to moderators and ask for my expulsion and killing this thread. This is an 8 year old tactic all anti-RM elements have been using ever since I came on BRF. They have ALWAYS failed but since they dont know any other trick, they keep using the same. Pls look at Governance thread or Neta-Babu thread and you will see same pattern.

[Rahul Mehta]

1. I do not accept the premise that CIA is out there to rig,

2. I also don't take the premise that all DCs are corrupt.

Everything is possible in RahulWorld.

1. The thread is not about "Did CIA, Missionaries wanted to rig poll". The thread is all about : "if they are willing to spend Rs 500 cr , and if Chawala agrees, can they add 20000 votes to 400 Constituencies to Congress?".

2. Over 90% DCs are corrupt. And in BU replacement theory, DC doesnt have to walk to warehouse and actively take any risk. He has to just look aside when 100-200 out of 1500 BUs are replaced on some 3-5 nights. Again, it is assumed that HomeSec will threaten DC to look aside. DCs literally cover murders when PM, CM or HomeSec ask. I dunno why DC would mind looking aside when some 100-200 BUs are being replaced.

[Dileep]

The RF in new BU is not taking inputs from cell phone towers, but only some sources which are just a few meters away. If a small RF unit has to send/receive a few bytes to/from a big RF unit a few meters away, the energy small one would need is negligiblel. (eg RFID circuits do radio communication without any battery). From the source which is handled by field agent near EVM, it would take candidate number, polling date etc and stores it in small flash. Such circuit will not take more than 1 inch * 1 inch max on PCB. If one opens a BU and looks at PCB with hand lens, he may smell fish. But opening BU was not done during the election process.

Your radio receiver could be accommodated in a 1"x1" square, but what about the rest? You need a controller to run the software that receives the data from the radio receiver, decodes it, disconnects the kaypad, routes it to its own IO lines. Disconnects the LEDs, connects them to its own IO lines. Waits for keystrokes, activates the relays to mimic keystrokes to the CU.

All needs space and all needs powers. Relays need a lot of power in fact.

[Pranav]

One idea I have is to have a roll of paper, like the paper tape used in old typesetters. Once the vote is cast, a hole is punched on the tape at the column corresponding to the vote cast. The punched row then moves to a glass window, through which the voter can see the hole. The paper rolls onto a take-up roll and is left in the BU after the poll. A 5 mm dia hole made on a 10 cm wide paper strip can easily do it.

This is an improvement. Some suggestions.
1. For about 2000 voters you will need a paper roll some 2 or 3 meters long. Before the poll it should be taken out, unwound, and the agents of the candidates should see that there is nothing punched on it. Then the compartment for the roll should be sealed by presiding officer in presence of agents.
2. Each row of the paper should have a serial number.
3. The transparent window should be big enough, and the spool design should be such that the voter can see the blank row with its serial number before the punching is done, and then can see the same row after punching. Otherwise a voter can doubt whether a fresh hole has been made or whether he is being shown some row that had already been punched for somebody else.
4. After the poll the number of rows that have been punched should be correlated with the number of voters who voted.
5. The whole process should be video recorded.
6. There is a privacy concern that by looking at the roll, and knowing the order of the voters, you can deduce how people voted. This issue does not arise when slips are being dropped in a ballot box.

[Dileep]

1. The thread is not about "Did CIA, Missionaries wanted to rig poll". The thread is all about : "if they are willing to spend Rs 500 cr , and if Chawala agrees, can they add 20000 votes to 400 Constituencies to Congress?".

The answer is, in World Ver 1.0, they can't. In RahulWorld, they may

2. Over 90% DCs are corrupt.

Do you have proof for that? Do you have vigilance case records? Do you have newsclips? Have you verified the claims? On what basis you make that argument?

And in BU replacement theory, DC doesnt have to walk to warehouse and actively take any risk. He has to just look aside when 100-200 out of 1500 BUs are replaced on some 3-5 nights. Again, it is assumed that HomeSec will threaten DC to look aside. DCs literally cover murders when PM, CM or HomeSec ask. I dunno why DC would mind looking aside when some 100-200 BUs are being replaced.

So, they will break and enter? Or pick the lock? The DC Can't just take the key from his pocket and give it to them you know?

[Dileep]

This is an improvement. Some suggestions.
1. For about 2000 voters you will need a paper roll some 2 or 3 meters long. Before the poll it should be taken out, unwound, and the agents of the candidates should see that there is nothing punched on it. Then the compartment for the roll should be sealed by presiding officer in presence of agents.

Opening the roll is not necessary. If the hole is already punched, there will be double punches, and it will show while voting, and also in the record.

2. Each row of the paper should have a serial number.
3. The transparent window should be big enough, and the spool design should be such that the voter can see the blank row with its serial number before the punching is done, and then can see the same row after punching. Otherwise a voter can doubt whether a fresh hole has been made or whether he is being shown some row that had already been punched for somebody else.
4. After the poll the number of rows that have been punched should be correlated with the number of voters who voted.
5. The whole process should be video recorded.
6. There is a privacy concern that by looking at the roll, and knowing the order of the voters, you can deduce how people voted. This issue does not arise when slips are being dropped in a ballot box.

In a paper ballot, it is possible to dig up the ballot by the serial number.
The paper will be sealed in the BU, and verified only if needed. So privacy issue don't come.

I don't like the slip in the box idea. It immensely complicates the procedures and achieves nothing. Also there is this little problem of the paper cutter, jams etc. A roll and punch system can be made very reliable.

[Pranav]

Opening the roll is not necessary. If the hole is already punched, there will be double punches, and it will show while voting, and also in the record.

The danger is that there could be a few hundred rows in the beginning which are already punched. I grant that you can correlate with number of voters, but it would be more transparent to open the roll. Would not be difficult since it would only be 3 or 4 meters long.

But yes, this scheme can be explored further.

[Dileep]

The danger is that there could be a few hundred rows in the beginning which are already punched. I grant that you can correlate with number of voters, but it would be more transparent to open the roll. Would not be difficult since it would only be 3 or 4 meters long.

But yes, this scheme can be explored further.

Winding it tightly the way a machine winds is not possible in the field. The end of the roll can be inspected before sealing. Also, there could be a "guard" row, which is punched when the poll starts and ends. You can also use smaller holes on the sides to put other control information as well.

[Tanaji]

The reason Tanaji, Sanku et al are throwing insults is that they hope that I will throw insults back. And then they can run to moderators and ask for my expulsion and killing this thread.

More lies from you. Where have I called for you to be banned? Please show one instance. I have called you a troll, a liar, a agent for the Neta but have never called you to be expelled.

You are getting to be a habitual liar. Stop trying to portray yourself as the victim.

[Rahul Mehta]

And in BU replacement theory, DC doesnt have to walk to warehouse and actively take any risk. He has to just look aside when 100-200 out of 1500 BUs are replaced on some 3-5 nights. Again, it is assumed that HomeSec will threaten DC to look aside. DCs literally cover murders when PM, CM or HomeSec ask. I dunno why DC would mind looking aside when some 100-200 BUs are being replaced.

So, they will break and enter? Or pick the lock? The DC Can't just take the key from his pocket and give it to them you know?

No, DC will just tell the local store keeper to open the lock. The store keepers are used to such irregularities. eg policemen rig evidences stored in storerooms every now and then - they dont even blink. The storekeeper will not dare to defy collector fearing that collector may throw false charges on him. And the warehouse agents will be Rs 1000 bribe. That is enough.

---------

Asides:


This idea of paper trail is "buying a house and still paying the rent".

At the end of the counting, one candidate will always scream murder and demand paper count.

So time saved = 0.

----

One cant put video camera in booth as of now. Too expensive. May be 5 years down the line, it is possible, but not today. But one can have camera which takes pix and sends every 30-60 seconds or so.

The easiest way to to stop booth rigging is to ensure that criminals dont get away. That is TRIVIAL - replace judges by Juries. We can discuss that in some other thread.