India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
archan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6823
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 21:30
Contact:

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by archan »

Please do not implicate me as taking any side here (I don't have enough facts on me to take sides) but regarding Balochistan not being as hot an issue on international fora: It is pakistan that has been crying all over the world about Kashmir and how that is _the_ core issue between two nuclear armed nations :eek: , the issue because of which it cannot cooperate in the US GOAT fully :cry: and blah blah :(( . That is why you see it mentioned so much in the international media - because it affects American plans. Has India ever raised the issue of Baloch people being massacred on any international forum? it is never too late though. Now is the time.
It is our humanitarian responsibility to offer full moral support to the Baloch people in their right to self determination, plebicite, autonomy, mercedes, aston martin, vaghera, vaghera.
negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by negi »

"moral and diplomatic" On one of the rare occasssions I conccur Amit ji...after all strong and able people provide moral and diplomatic support onlee. :lol:

^ Archan ji it is not about taking sides....niether it is about the Baloch issue ...I am sorry but perhaps amidst the rona dhona people miss the core issue ...i.e. "Is GOI or India willing or Assertive to engage Pakistan " .

I simply do not understand as to how can one wetdream about India capitalising on Balochistan issue ? ; when post 26/11 we never saw any embargo on trade between Pakistan and India (learned people here should perhaps check how much the exports from India mean to Pakistan) , the IWT is another area where we could have held them at ransom .What has changed overnight which makes people on BRF believe India or GOI is gonna leverage or even rake up the Baloch issue in the international fora ; and from the other perspective what stops TSP from increasing terrorist activities in J&K citing Baluchistan as an example ?


And btw I am against any war or military action...to keep the record straight.
archan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6823
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 21:30
Contact:

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by archan »

and from the other perspective what stops TSP from increasing terrorist activities in J&K citing Baluchistan as an example ?
As if they ever needed that excuse! :D
Which is older, Kashmir or Baloch issue? so why can't India turn the tables and say hey, until the jehadis keep crossing our border in Kashmir, forget Balochistan.
I know the debate here is will India do it under the current Govt. But I don't want to predict what X or Y will do. I certainly don't know as much as the people who make the dealings and no matter how many opinion pieces I read sitting in my living room, I can never be sure to have the complete picture as to what is going on behind the scenes.
enqyoob
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 06 Jul 2008 20:25

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by enqyoob »

when post 26/11 we never saw any embargo on trade between Pakistan and India (learned people here should perhaps check how much the exports from India mean to Pakistan)
For the record:
1. Post 26/11, India did not attack Pakistan
2. India did not impose an embargo on trade with Pakistan
3. India did not commit any terrorist acts inside Pakistan...

IOW, India seemed to do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
Oh, but that's because India is a SOFT state! Led by traitors, spineless "clerks", not TOUGH MARDS like Pakis and some heroes here. Reminds me of the Paki on CNN forum during the Kargil jollies describing how
To be a Man one has to feel the weight of an AK-47 in one's arms

One of our more memorable e-lynchings followed... :mrgreen:

But.... inside 6 months, Pakistan is now so desperate about what is happening in their internal matter 8) of Balochistan (I mean Pardestan) and Pakhtoonistan and Balwaristan and Sindhudesh, that they absolutely INSIST on putting their panic in every statement they write. :((

What I read elsewhere is that Afghanistan is pretty upset about Pakiban terrorism inside Afghanistan ... and wish to support the rightfuly aspirations of the people of Balochistan and Pakhtoonistan for freedom and peace from oppression by Pakistan. And India is a good friend of Afghanistan, offering strong support to rebuild democracy and security and non-hashish based prosperity in Afghanistan. :mrgreen:
Rony
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3513
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 23:29

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by Rony »

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/ne ... x?CatID=10

In this NDTV programme, at the end of the show, the anchor asks the question ' How many people think we should talk to pakistan'. More than half of the hands gets raised for 'Yes'. Even the ultra WKK anchor vikram gets suprised.It looks like BRF is completely out of sync from the mainstream. 'Aam admi' gives to hoot about paki terrorism or MMS guboing to Unkil.This is a country where in short term anger people take rallies on terrorism after mumbai attacks and elect the same govt the next day on regional grounds without any concern about national issues.

In the above programme, when the anchor vikram asks a WKK sikh why he is in favour of talking with pakistan, the reply is because his wife met a paki in dubai who spoke in punjabi and he felt both are same people, same culture etc etc ... the usual crap to which the WKK anchor wholeheartedly agrees. The consensus in the programme is that India needs to continue the dialogue irrespective of the paki actions. Yatha Raja, Tatha Praja !

I sincerly believe India desperately needs a Narshimha Rao. Manmohan Singh has been a big big flop. He was never a leader nor a visionary.He just piggybacked on Narshimha Rao's brain power and unduly got credited for economic reforms because the sonia coterie did not want to give credit to Narshimha Rao.
munna
BRFite
Posts: 1392
Joined: 18 Nov 2007 05:03
Location: Pee Arr Eff's resident Constitution Compliance Strategist (Phd, with upper hand)

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by munna »

Raja Ram wrote:And so the second charge begins on this thread to defend the indefensible sell out. To boldly see what mere mortals cannot see. Original spinster (JSnowji) is here on the thread, that too fresh from his tour of Africa. So let him comment on the amateurish spin attempted here to save the H&D of the glorious leader, modern day chanakya, distinguished economist, oxford scholar, strong sardar PM and his great defeat of Pakistan
In the humble opinion of this amateur spin master neither is Chanakya's aim to save the H&D of MMS nor is to see any phenomena where none exists! All that is being attempted is to rise beyond rhetoric and not get swayed by Paki like emotions of jumping the gun and alleging conspiracy every time MMS opens mouth or concludes a deal.
As I keep saying, there is no Indian interest being served by resuming talks. There is no Indian interest being served in rewarding pakistan with a badly drafted Joint Statement. There was no interest being served in meeting with the Pakistani PM in the first place. Some other country's interest was being served.
Agreed but then that is something that everyone knows and is in open domain. The only person who knows more than all of us put together is MMS. You believe he is a Manchurian candidate while I say let us understand his motives and policy path in the given strategic matrix. Let us agree to disagree.
There was no clamour for talks to resume in India. Neither from the communal bad BJP nor from the peace loving secular parties like CPI(M). Heck, not even from the Gandhiji loving Congress. Then why this act of stupidity?

The PM of India should and act and behave as PM of India, not as a head clerk. Is that too much to ask from an Oxford educated scholar, economist?

The problem with your suggested policy is that we will get too holed out in our shell so that neither can we hit out at our enemies nor will be able to talk to them. The open season on Pak is close by and we need to have our players and teams active in Baki land. Call me a mad man optimist/chammach or amateur spin master I am merely trying explain MMS' motives and benefits of the ambiguous Joint Statement. Apart from allegations and abuses people have not provided anything against MMS.
negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by negi »

archan wrote: As if they ever needed that excuse! :D
No things have changed the 'azad kashmir' formula has lost sheen , the world has gradually woken up (yeah took em 50 years ) and realised so called Jihad==Terrorism, by falling for the Baloch issue India will be only drawn into the muck i.e. Terrorism in J&K == India sponsored extremism in Baluchistan .

Which is older, Kashmir or Baloch issue? so why can't India turn the tables and say hey, until the jehadis keep crossing our border in Kashmir, forget Balochistan.
It is not about which is 'OLDER' but infact about which is more 'SERIOUS' and affects me or you directly J&K or some Balochistan which does not even share a border with us.

Given the appeasement of separatists in J&K I can only :rotfl: at such proposals.
munna
BRFite
Posts: 1392
Joined: 18 Nov 2007 05:03
Location: Pee Arr Eff's resident Constitution Compliance Strategist (Phd, with upper hand)

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by munna »

negi wrote: No things have changed the 'azad kashmir' formula has lost sheen , the world has gradually woken up (yeah took em 50 years ) and realised so called Jihad==Terrorism, by falling for the Baloch issue India will be only drawn into the muck i.e. Terrorism in J&K == India sponsored extremism in Baluchistan
Negiji are you trying to say that Indian presence and its open acknowledgement by Pakistan will make Paki establishment stronger or more potent in its attacks on India? Hardly so. The fanatics in Isloo understand only force and given our establishment which believes in "inertia of peace" the only solution is pay back Pakis in thousand Kashmirs. Let a hundred -stans bloom in Pakiland, I am really surprised at the less than sanguine reaction of BRF-its to this development. I do not know how many remember but in the aftermath of 26/11 a former evil adminullah had opened a thread regarding opening a second front against the Pak fauj from the west, lo and behold there is some movement in the same direction while the jingos bay for MMS blood.
It is not about which is 'OLDER' but infact about which is more 'SERIOUS' and affects me or you directly J&K or some Balochistan which does not even share a border with us.
Given the appeasement of separatists in J&K I can only :rotfl: at such proposals
Balochistan is a disputed land now and is now as serious as J&K by all means. Any diversion of resources by Pak fauj to Balochistan will emaciate the shield under which our fellow country men our terrorized by cross border terrorism. The key here is that we are building up pressure points within that nation and they are suffering from internal divisions, exploit them rather than create our internal divisions by calling the leader of our nation names. . . .
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by RamaY »

ramana wrote:
SC, Lt gen Ashok Mehta is an India firster and also a realist who supports what can be achieived.
I don't know About Mehta Sahib but his what-can-be-achieved-today pre-emps what can be achieved in the future.

The problem with most of the scenarios, IMO, is they make a choice between American vs Chinese influence over Pakistan and subcontinent. A India first world view will work on preparing right conditions for Indian world view.

JMT
negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by negi »

Munna mian do you know where Balochistan is located ? have you ever thought over the logistical challenges involved in sneaking in a gang of LeT men from across the border in J&K vis a vis India doing the same in Balochistan ?

Have you taken into consideration of demographics of J&K and the surrounding border vis a vis some one from India and Balochistan and its bearing on such an undercover op ?

And what is more easier for a country both economically and politically ? to enforce a trade and commerce embargo or to carry out clandestine or guerrilla warfare ? What are the stakes involved from TSP side if trade between two countries comes to a standstill ? specially when the former enjoyed the MFN status until last decade ?

Why do think TSP opted for clandestine terrorist activities (they simply did not enjoy the superiority in conventional warfare neither could they inflict economic losses on India as far as trade was concerned) ?

All this GOI support and role in Balochistan revolution is a figment of Chankian imagination . :lol:

Btw only people who might understand and fathom Chankian logic at this hour might be Hamid Gul and Zaid Hamid. :rotfl:
Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11240
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by Gagan »

Oh Narayanji,
please read what I've written again.
I've said:
All this is apart from the spin the pakis will be giving to this back home, there they will say that india got weak kneed when confronted with 'evidence' (Under lungi photo ops) in balochistan and other areas.
I am saying that Pakistan will use this to further strengthen their stand back home in pakistan that they have proved and india's PM has aggreed that india is involved in balochistan.

My grouse is with MMS having said that india is not involved and bringing balochistan into the issue, is that I am afraid that india is not involved.

I want india to be involved, and for the indian PM to go on as if nothing is going on, until, india is sure that a point has been reached, where overt actions and involvement is the way forward.

That stage has just not arrived yet. Balochistan only has a few gas pipeline improvements etc from time to time, nowhere near the state that would be conducive to an independent balochistan.

Now where did I say this?
4. SO THE WORLD WILL NOW SAY THAT INDIA GOT WEAK-KNEED WHEN CONFRONTED WITH EVIDENCE? :rotfl: :rotfl:
It seems you are dissing me when none is needed.

2. Why is it that I seem to be one who is out to malign MMS, while you seem to be on the other side. Most news articles tend to bear out what I write here. What MMS did was improper. G Parthasarthy and the others can't all be unnecessary be raising a hue and cry.

No entanglement there as far as I can see. :)
Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11240
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by Gagan »

Rony wrote:http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/ne ... x?CatID=10

In this NDTV programme, at the end of the show, the anchor asks the question ' How many people think we should talk to pakistan'. More than half of the hands gets raised for 'Yes'. Even the ultra WKK anchor vikram gets suprised.
This is because the media itself has a WKK agenda. There seems to be an unholy amount of 'we should talk onlee' on the air all the time. The media has shown the 'other side of the story' too many times.
All this while patently going against India's core national interest, unity. These bufoons don't realize that they are dissing their own realists and living in a utopia of all humans are good onlee, peace all around.
Well 26/11 gave them a solid kick on their backsides, where try as they may they could not rise to the defence of pakistan's actions. Ever since, they have gone back to more = = to the dhimmi junta.
Any one who is exposed to only what our media dishes out, and not attuned to seperating fact from hype will fall into the WKK trap.
enqyoob
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 06 Jul 2008 20:25

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by enqyoob »

OK, Gaganji. The news articles usually get it wrong. As for GP, of course I respect him greatly, he has been on the frontlines for India. Which is not to say that he is right to criticize the S-eS "statement" as a self-goal. Consider:

1. Mr. Baloch coming out and requesting Indian support for Balochistani freedom, and citing Bangladesh 1971 and Indian democracy, is as bad a kick in the golas as anyone could deliver to the Pakis at this stage - and that happened directly as a result of the SeS statement

2. Balochistan has been "internationalised". A week ago, most of the world had not even heard the term (they still haven't) but now at least some people have heard, and I suspect that India at least gets some free credit (if you are right about MMS not having actually done anything there). Somehow if India has done "NOTHING", ... but I won't say it. Note that Mr. Baloch did not say that India has done nothing but should do something - he just said the Balochis look to India for support like the East Pakis did in 1970-71. Of course India did NOTHING in East Pakistan either, until December 1971... :P 8)

3. As an outside "analyst" living among ppl with the indiapakistan == perspective, I HAVE to conclude from these happenings, and from my "sense of what any nation would do" that India is busy wreaking havoc on the Paki Army in Balochistan, Balwaristan, Sindhudesh and Pakhtoonistan, and has huuuuuge covert operations based in Afghanistan, Iran, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan and Kyrgyzstan. Over 1,700,000,000 Indian covert operative baniyas are sneaking across the Afghan-Baloch border every day, and pretty soon the Paki wimmens in Pakjab will be getting ****** by Indian soldiers, 1,000000 times day like what has been happening to Kashmiri wimmens for the last 65 years. Revenge for Mumbai is in full swing and the pakis are literally :(( :(( "UNKIL!!" :(( :(( and Indians are :rotfl:

Of course, if you want to believe that all this is totally false, and that India is ruled by spineless idiots, and they can't compose a Joint Statement between the lot of them, and that these "typos" got left in there my oversight, well.... OK, OK, please do go on believing that. To Each According to His Needs.
negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by negi »

The Pakistanis who claim that India has ops in Balochistan also claim that 26/11 was a CIA Mosad and RAW conspiracy and that 09/11 too was orchestrated by the CIA... it is to each according to his needs. Chankian naa. ?
enqyoob
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 06 Jul 2008 20:25

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by enqyoob »

Of course. Engineered by the same gang who did the 1969 moon landing scam and the 2001 "911" TV scam.
Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11240
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by Gagan »

narayanan wrote:Of course, if you want to believe that all this is totally false, and that India is ruled by spineless idiots, and they can't compose a Joint Statement between the lot of them, and that these "typos" got left in there my oversight
Who doesn't f**k up once in a while? But with MMS, his strategy here comes with a precedence. The havana ==. Now tell me what chankiyan advantage did it ever get india?
Balochistan is not prepared enough yet by india doing 'NOTHING' there, for the indian PM to mention it. When it is ready, like pakhtoonistan is ready, then india should mention it and say we stand for the people of that area in their quest for freedom etc, and have the means to walk the talk.

Now,
1. our adaraniya PMji has mentioned balochistan as an = = to kashmir
2. balochistan is not prepared yet, because india is really doing 'nothing' (as opposed to a bolded 'NOTHING'), and India does not have the means to back up the internationalization now.
This will only get the balochis killed, India and MMS will stand by, and continue to parrot 'we are doing nothing onlee'.
3. General Pasha, who till yesterday was hiding under his table at being summoned to delhi, now briefs indians at the consulate in islamabad, but now wants to meet RAW chief. :!: Amazing U turn, and this is not because they too want to hang hafeez sayeed. :roll:
munna
BRFite
Posts: 1392
Joined: 18 Nov 2007 05:03
Location: Pee Arr Eff's resident Constitution Compliance Strategist (Phd, with upper hand)

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by munna »

negi wrote:Munna mian do you know where Balochistan is located ? have you ever thought over the logistical challenges involved in sneaking in a gang of LeT men from across the border in J&K vis a vis India doing the same in Balochistan ?
Yes and the point being? We have discussed logistics and supply chains in a previous thread by Shiv and the rough conclusions were that while a full scale invasion is not possible but a low intensity situation can be created suitably assisted by Afghan brothers.
Have you taken into consideration of demographics of J&K and the surrounding border vis a vis some one from India and Balochistan and its bearing on such an undercover op ?
Both areas have Shia and Sunni denominated demographic areas nearby which can be suitably exploited!
And what is more easier for a country both economically and politically ? to enforce a trade and commerce embargo or to carry out clan
destine or guerrilla warfare ? What are the stakes involved from TSP side if trade between two countries comes to a standstill ? specially when the former enjoyed the MFN status until last decade ?
For the policy planners to decide not armchair jernails.
All this GOI support and role in Balochistan revolution is a figment of Chankian imagination . :lol:
Valid viewpoint and a contrarian take on MMS administration but the sudden Paki discomfort is all too stark to ignore.
Btw only people who might understand and fathom Chankian logic at this hour might be Hamid Gul and Zaid Hamid.
Needless insinuation best avoided, thanks.
negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by negi »

munna wrote: Yes and the point being? We have discussed logistics and supply chains in a previous thread by Shiv and the rough conclusions were that while a full scale invasion is not possible but a low intensity situation can be created suitably assisted by Afghan brothers.
Yes ofcourse you might have done...last I heard US and NATO convoys were being burnt and captured by Talibs and even Coalition forces. A country that twiddled its thumbs and :(( louder than the loudest on this forum when it's embassy was bombed in Kabul has developed overnight cajones to carry out ops in Balochistan. Saabaas...carry on.
Both areas have Shia and Sunni denominated demographic areas nearby which can be suitably exploited!
demographics==religion ? NICE.... can you make out a SHIA or SUNNI by looking at one's face , or hearing him speak ?
For the policy planners to decide not armchair jernails.
Nice line of argument... it is not about the authority here it is about RIGHT/WRONG ...plain and simple.
Needless insinuation best avoided, thanks.
Why when rest of folks can poke fun at :(( BRFites why can't we praise the Chankian gang after all its about 'equal equal' onlee :mrgreen:
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by ramana »

I dont think there was any Chanakyan thing about this whole incorrect drafting. I dont think India has any thing going on in Balochistan and when Gilani wanted to say that they have something MMS allowed it into the jt statement as he knew there was nothing Indian going on. The Baloch strugglle is totally indigenous since 1948 Khan of Kalat's revolt. Recall the hijacking of TSP airliner in 1998 to protest their proposed nuke testing in Chagai, which is in Balochistan. And recall Olaf Caroe's alluding to US interest in Balochistan in his great game books. Most likely the BLA is a Anglo-Saxon enterprise to get bases in case of post TSP implosion

On the other hand TSP beef (ouch!) is with the Indian consulates in Jalalabad and Mashad, which it accuses of fomenting the Baloch uprising! So when the say they have some info its something cooked up about those consulates. Recall the stories peddled by Gul badan or mohur that Indian Embassy bombing in Kabul was justified due to this alleged meddling. So Gilani must have been forced by these hallucinating generals to raise the issue and did so.
Then there is the Nightwatch report of July 15th/16th that stated that TSP was going to raise this issue and that would be insulting to the Indian PM and he might walk out. So that might have been an expectiation. Since 1990, the Indian modus operandi is do the unexpected : ABV in Kargil insisting on clearing the dregs without ceasefire, not attacking after 12/13 attack on Lok Sabha or Kaluchak and MMS even after 11/26 Mumbai attack. The result would be more hectoring from US SD about need to talk etc. To forestall all that, was in the PM's mind.

Anyway whether India wanted to be involved in Balochistan or not the Baloch want India to be involved. And the TSP scored a Chankian mega self goal by making Balochistan a bilateral issue in the joint statement. Now for the Pakiban to ask India to help would be icing on the cake.

Yes TSP can and will accuse India of interfering in Balochistan but it wont be true whereas TSP involvement in J&K is very true and credible.

Any way why not have a fundraiser mela at Pragati Maidan for Aug 15th to collect funds and show solidarity for the plight of the Balochistan. Sell some T-shirts might even energise the Dil chata hai/ rang de basanti crowds. How about a T Shirt with Late Nawab Of Bugti picture like the Che Guvera T shirts?

How about an SMS campaign to support the Balochistan liberation movement!

Start a twitter and facebook movement on the Balochis!


Do something useful in addition to :((

lets make Lassi with the spilt milk!
negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by negi »

--deleted--uncalled for
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10205
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by sum »

In the above programme, when the anchor vikram asks a WKK sikh why he is in favour of talking with pakistan, the reply is because his wife met a paki in dubai who spoke in punjabi and he felt both are same people, same culture etc etc ... the usual crap to which the WKK anchor wholeheartedly agrees.
The only person i was remembering when seeing the sikh gentleman was MMS...the only difference between the two was MMS gets to decide the policy of the entire country!!! :eek: :eek:
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by amit »

ramanna wrote:Anyway whether India wanted to be involved in Balochistan or not the Baloch want India to be involved. And the TSP scored a Chankian mega self goal by making Balochistan a bilateral issue in the joint statement. Now for the Pakiban to ask India to help would be icing on the cake.
Can't India call for a composite dialogue on Baluchistan problem with Pakistan now? More so since the Balochis have asked for India's help now?

Another point, lets assume that this "bad drafting" thing didn't happen and we had a sooper dooper draft which tied Pakistan in all manner of knots. Now I would like to ask the learned members here, would that draft have done any of the following:

1) Stop Pakistan from supporting its Hurriyat rats who live under police protection in Srinagar?

2) Would it have prevented the LeT and ISI from planning future Mumbai like carnages?

3) Would it have stopped Pakistan from alleging that India's 1000000000000000 consulates in Afghanistan are fomenting trouble in Baluchistan?

4) Would it have made the Pakistani generals more friendly to India?

5) Would it have ensured that the Pakis stopped the wonderful reality show that they are indulging in now, that is killing one another?

If the answer is No to each one of the above, then can someone tell me why the sky is falling on MMS and he's being compared with Musharaff - a traitor who needed to run to London for asylum?

Oh yes, I'm waiting for tripartite talks between Pakistan, the Baluchi freedom fighters and India. The US can join in as observers.

PS: I really fail to understand why we get upset when the world does India==Pakistan? We ourselves are comfortable with this == and feel lost without it.

Do note that we think that End of Days have come on a US$1.2 trillion economy with 1.2 billion people, with the second fasted growing economy, about to launch its first N-sub and courted by all nations.

Why?

Because a basket case nation - which everyone calls a failing state and the most dangerous place in the world - is claiming victory because it got India to agree to "talks" and pushed into the bilateral domain what was till now an internal problem in Baluchistan.

And yes please do note that strong nations like the US, China and Russia don't give a Sh**TA*S about treaties and joint declarations etc. (Just look at the way US made the unexpected move on ENR at G8 to try and screw the progress on the N-deal that India made with France and Russia, as an example). Do also factor in MMS' clarification on talks starting only after the Mumbai terrorists are brought to justice.

We on BRF of course know better. Hence we are convinced that all that India has achieved till now has been lost because of the Jt statement signed by our PM with a PM who may be booted out of office tomorrow for all we know.

Folks here are right there was no Chanikyan move on the part of MMS and the Foreign Ministry, they were doing what they always do - appear to be "weak" and always "goofing up" in the face of the TAFTA diplomats from the Land of the Pure.

All the Chanikyan moves and counter moves and conclusions are being done on this thread and in the End User Verification fiasco thread.

Take a bow folks! :D
negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by negi »

Can't India call for a composite dialogue on Baluchistan problem with Pakistan now? More so since the Balochis have asked for India's help now?
And do what ? how does it solve the long standing issues ? Tibetians and Afgans have been doing the same since stoneage but I don't see GOI bat an eyelid apart from providing political asylum to a few individuals...for more chai biskoot onlee :P
Another point, lets assume that this "bad drafting" thing didn't happen and we had a sooper dooper draft which tied Pakistan in all manner of knots. Now I would like to ask the learned members here, would that draft have done any of the following:
Does it get more convenient and naive than this ? :lol:

If the answer is No to each one of the above, then can someone tell me why the sky is falling on MMS and he's being compared with Musharaff - a traitor who needed to run to London for asylum?
Btw someone was phirst in the line eagerly waiting for his Canadian Vijja stamping, does above logik apply for him too ? :mrgreen:
CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6865
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by CRamS »

Raja Ram wrote:And so the second charge begins on this thread to defend the indefensible sell out. To boldly see what mere mortals cannot see. Original spinster (JSnowji) is here on the thread, that too fresh from his tour of Africa. So let him comment on the amateurish spin attempted here to save the H&D of the glorious leader, modern day chanakya, distinguished economist, oxford scholar, strong sardar PM and his great defeat of Pakistan.

As I keep saying, there is no Indian interest being served by resuming talks. There is no Indian interest being served in rewarding pakistan with a badly drafted Joint Statement. There was no interest being served in meeting with the Pakistani PM in the first place. Some other country's interest was being served.

There was no clamour for talks to resume in India. Neither from the communal bad BJP nor from the peace loving secular parties like CPI(M). Heck, not even from the Gandhiji loving Congress. Then why this act of stupidity?

The PM of India should and act and behave as PM of India, not as a head clerk. Is that too much to ask from an Oxford educated scholar, economist?
Good points. To all those who confer victory for India and Bharat Ratna to MMS; lets turn clock back to Havana. MMS meekly surrendered there too, "we are both victims onlee", and what did that Chankyan move buy India? Mumbay 26/11. Thank you very much. MMS has not only mocked the 1000s and 1000s of Indians who have perished to TSP terror, he has not only betrayed un-suspecting Indians who trusted him with their votes, but also many of the posters here on BR, true patriots who simply cannot accept MMS can sell India out. Sadly they are wrong.

Hey Hey Ho, MMS has got to go :-).
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by ramana »

Indian elite attitude towards TSP from JLN to ABV to MMS is similar to that shown to the wayward cousin or younger sibling. They treat the TSP as the prodigial son and hope they turn a good leaf. The idea and hope is over generosity and leinence will eventually make them see reason and become cordial.

However TSP is becoming more and more irredentist. Every nice gesture is seen as a sign of weakness and defeat. And this reinforces their behavior.

To add tot he mess is the Anglo Saxon West that feeds the insecurity and eggs them on.
Raja Ram
BRFite
Posts: 587
Joined: 30 Mar 1999 12:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by Raja Ram »

There was no need to meet Gilani in the first place, from the Indian POV. The pakis wanted it and the US wanted it. We did not need to meet. They were in trouble. We should have stuck to the line of "Let them stew in their own juices" and demanded action before rewarding talks.

Once you did meet to keep our new friend, strategic benefactor and provider of all things needed for 9% growth, happy, it was not necessary to agree to whatever, wailings, pleadings, blackmailing that the pakis came up with. Similiar tricks have been tried in the past, we give in and they promptly go back on every commitment made. Eg. Bhutto crying to Mrs. IG not to put things in writing and he will make sure that he delivers. Our great, thinking, economist, brilliant strategist PM, not only gives into pleading for resumption of talks but also signs up to some poorly drafted statement. His own officials admit to it now. His own party is pissed off, but yet here on BR, some gurus are seeing this as the ultimate Chanakyan move.

I am not too bothered about this Baluchistan entry into the statement. It neither indicts India as some of the criticisers of the PM here fear nor does it give us any major advantage as some of the spinmaster gurus claim. Baluchistan will or will not become an international issue equal to J&K based on a variety of realpolitik factors. India's involvement or lack of it is pure conjecture at this point in time.

My criticism, is simply this. The GOI had nothing to gain by agreeing to this meeting. No Indian interest was to served. The consensus on approach towards Pakistan that was there did not call for it. The pressure on Pakistan to deliver has not been increased due to this climb down. We have done this to please the US. So far no Indian PM has done things to please or serve the interests of any other nation but India. At worst they have refrained from exploiting situations to further Indian interests. This PM has done something that is in the interests of others and not in the interest of India. I want my PM to further my country's interest.

Second part of the criticism, is having agreed to talk, he could have at the least, reiterated the Indian position, told in private what he expects the pakis to deliver and in a Joint Statement clearly state the conditions under which talks can resume. There is no mention of Indian expectation from Pakistan in the Joint Statement. Yet we have committed to delink pakistani action on stopping terror, dismantling permanently the terror machine and delivering wanted terrorists as a precondition to start composite talks. Instead we have commited to a timeline and set of meetings as if nothing has happened.

People here in the BRF, of all places, see virtue in this and some strategic advantage. By all means, we can fathom out some silver lining. A lot of claims are being made on what will now happen in Balochistan and how India will ensure that Pakistan is brought to its knees. I hope at least a part of it comes true. I would be so happy to be proved wrong.
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by amit »

negi wrote: wrote...
Negi,
Nice to see that I've invoked the spirit of bositive news thread in your response. :-)

After 18 pages of ronna dhonna and the sky has fallen scenarios that seems appropriate.

Kudos to you for realising that!
vera_k
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4481
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:45

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by vera_k »

Pakistan is still seen as part of the Indian civilization. That limits the solutions that can be applied to the Pakistan problem.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by RajeshA »

MMS may have or not have done Chankyan thinking on Baluchistan, but Chankyan deeds are definitely now possible with this Joint Statement as background.

Whether India was ever involved or not in Baluchistan, India would definitely be either willingly or by force be contributing to the Baluchi Freedom Struggle.

The Imperatives for a 'Not-Involved' GoI would be now to show that Sita is pavitr. How can GoI do that:

i) By making a few documentaries on the good work being done by the Indian consulates in Afghanistan.

ii) By showing to the world, that the Baluch Freedom Struggle is indigenous, and that there is ample grounds for them to pursue such a struggle, for that far more bandwidth would have to be made available for the atrocities being committed on the peaceful people of Baluchistan, who try to bring down CO2 emissions in their own creative way.

iii) By bringing the Baluch groups on a single platform, a Conference perhaps, to plead with India to come to its help, and to officially reject any rumors that India is already providing with any military assistance.

In a way all this would help the Baluch cause politically and media-wise, whereas the actual support to the struggle gets channelized through Afghanistan and Oman, two good Indian allies, where we can use plausible deniability!
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by amit »

Raja Ram,
It's easy for you to righteously say MMS should not have met Gillani. However, countries don't conduct business but sitting at home to show how cross they are. One reason the US and allies engage North Korea.


CRS,

Nobody is claiming - at least I'm not - that the Jt statement was a great diplomatic coup. It well be a case of MEA dropping the ball.

What I am saying is that such statements matter diddly squat. You just move after a faux pa (if this was one). Yet you read this thread and even highly repected members are acting like it was the biggest foreign policy debacle of this decade.

JT
csharma
BRFite
Posts: 695
Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by csharma »

One reason why MMS would have done this is to give the Americans what they wanted on Pakistan because otherwise Hillary's visit might have been dominated by Pakistan talks etc. He probably wanted that out of the way and talk to US on things that are of importance between India and US. Sort of treating Pakistan as a nuisance.

The same logic was used by India under the NDA govt in 2004 when they resumed talks with Pakistan.

The only problem is that the joint statement gave away too much. The fact that MMS met Gilani is itself a concession. Explicitly delinking talks with terror was not a wise thing to do. The other problem is India giving in to US pressure on making concessions to Pakistan.

While Pakistan is indeed a nuisance, when Indian lives are concerned GOI cannot take it lightly.
Last edited by csharma on 22 Jul 2009 11:37, edited 1 time in total.
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by amit »

Sorry for typos folks. Using my handphone ;-(
Raja Ram
BRFite
Posts: 587
Joined: 30 Mar 1999 12:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by Raja Ram »

amit wrote:Raja Ram,
It's easy for you to righteously say MMS should not have met Gillani. However, countries don't conduct business but sitting at home to show how cross they are. One reason the US and allies engage North Korea.
amit,

That is exactly my point. India had no business to conduct with pakistan until they changed their ways. We have not achieved anything post Mumbai in terms of Pakistani compliance to our demands. There was no Indian demand to do business with Pakistan. So why do it? There was a demand to resume talks with Pakistan from Pakistani civilian rulers and from the USG. Why please them?

Anyway, what is done is done. The GOI screwed up and this PM screwed up. At least try and clean up the mess and move on. As ramana, says let us try and make some lassi with spilt milk. The fact remains that this PM let India down. I know that he will not be held accountable. I also know and acknowledge that this nation supports him and his stand. I can only state that this is not right. For that I have the freedom to do so in this country and in this forum. To each according to his need and to each according to his capacity to understand I suppose.
sanjaychoudhry
BRFite
Posts: 756
Joined: 13 Jul 2007 00:39
Location: La La Land

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by sanjaychoudhry »

Nobody is claiming - at least I'm not - that the Jt statement was a great diplomatic coup. It well be a case of MEA dropping the ball.

What I am saying is that such statements matter diddly squat. You just move after a faux pa (if this was one). Yet you read this thread and even highly repected members are acting like it was the biggest foreign policy debacle of this decade.


Extreme words such as "diplomatic coup," "skies have not fallen," "didly squat," "biggest foriegn policy debacle," "rona dhona" -- these are just tactics to put down an opponent by accusing him of extreme irrational positions. They mean nothing. Why is it so difficult for Indians to admit the obvious?
csharma
BRFite
Posts: 695
Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by csharma »

sanjaychoudhry wrote:
Nobody is claiming - at least I'm not - that the Jt statement was a great diplomatic coup. It well be a case of MEA dropping the ball.

What I am saying is that such statements matter diddly squat. You just move after a faux pa (if this was one). Yet you read this thread and even highly repected members are acting like it was the biggest foreign policy debacle of this decade.


Extreme words such as "diplomatic coup," "skies have not fallen," "didly squat," "biggest foriegn policy debacle," "rona dhona" -- these are just tactics to put down an opponent by accusing him of extreme irrational positions. They mean nothing. Why is it so difficult for Indians to admit the obvious?
People who are MMS supporters in general will have opinions like that. That is expected and nothing wrong in that.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by Sanku »

There are three things here, intention action and consequence.

We can put them together in many ways

1) Right intention -> right action -> right consequence
2) Right intention -> blunder -> wrong consequence
3) Right intention -> right action -> wrong consequence
......

and so on.

The point is, a right intention does not necessarily mean the action will be right, and a right action may or may not be successful or correct in long term since many other variable get in.

Similarly total bloopers can be made and India being what she is, takes in a lot of mistakes in her strides and moves on and things get right after all.

Thus in long term "dekhenge" & coupled with the fact that we are all dead, kind of thinking is pretty much a blank cheque to kick the can on postponing a judgment forever.

However irrespective of how things finally turn out to be, I don't think any one in the right mind can say that there is no concept of a right action and a wrong action, or of intentions.

All this, trying to find a silver lining in dark cloud is all very well, but must not be used a excuse for denial of dark clouds, or like some people are doing here, appreciating the dark cloud, "look but for dark cloud there would be no silver lining" (or they twist the simli by saying dark clouds are good because they bear monsoons and such like)

------

In S e S, three huge give aways were made
1) Acceptance that talking to Pakistan state and terror were disjoint. Hence essentially giving the Pakistan freedom from the last remaining pressure point (we had already conceded gleefully that force is not an option anyway)
2) Acceptance that Balochistan was a issue between the two countries -- hence diluting the terror agenda
3) Essentially playing equal equal.

----

The game of Salami slicing is played so well that post Mumbai V attacks, people were whining why we have publicly given up the force option even before the operation was over. What was the hurry.

We are now debating that does it make any sense to use diplomatic pressure?

So over 1 year the GoI has brainwashed its citizens into first saying that no use of force is possible to even using diplomatic means is unnecessary.

I already see MMS moving into the next phase of "whats the big deal about Mumbai V"

-----

IMVHO while ascribing reasons to why GoI is behaving as this -- IMVHO calling for a external influence (or sell out) is actually the most Charitable view you can take. This means that at least there is something to sell out.

Meanwhile lets just make sure that our family is doing well thats all what counts after all.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by RajeshA »

As we have seen on this thread, there are many ways of reading the Baluchistan mention.

There are other possibilities than just Manmohan Singh becoming a victim of sudden burst of Jhappi-Puppy Emotionality. There are also good reasons why others were not confided with on this.

n+1st Theory - Ego-Spot Shift Theory
Americans derive their leverage in Pakistan from the role they can play there as pro-Pakistanis umpires viz-a-viz India. Every time some Gora comes along and says a few words in favor of Pakistani position on Kashmir, the Pakistanis go gaga, and are willing to give away their favorite Ayesha goat in return. Pakistanis are simply suckers for it. Not only that, the Pakistanis want the Goras to confirm that their position is right viz-a-viz India on any other sticking issue. Usually it is a sign of weakness to want confirmation from others.

Now the problem has always been that all issues that are disputed in Indo-Pak relations are of ultra-sensitivity to India as well - most predominantly the Kashmir issue. India is justified to be sensitive about the issue. So whenever an American or a Brit make a remark on Kashmir simply to massage the big Pakistani ego, so that the Pakistanis deliver some xyz to America or Britain, they inadvertently step on India's toes as well.

Some here may think differently and they may be right too, but my reading is that after Kargil, the West has practically accepted the LoC as the international border between India and Pakistan. That understanding was reached in the time of Bill Clinton itself. After 9/11, nobody in their right minds in the West, would like to concede more ground to the Islamists anyway. Bush did not even see it fit to get involved in the whole thing, so he kept his distance from Kashmir. So I consider the question, whether India can hold on to Kashmir or not or through magic is forced to sign away our part of Kashmir away or something, to be a moot question. There is no possibility of that. The reason, why I think, there is far less desire in the West to needle India on Kashmir, is simply because the West accepts countries which fulfill one criteria - support them in upholding the various global institutions and power structures established by them. That is why they look upon India somewhat more benignly. The EJ issue is a separate issue.

But if they put away Kashmir, as they might well like to put away, the Anglo-Americans lose a vital Pakistani ego spot to massage. So another ego-spot may be the need of the hour. A different field where they can play their ego-massage games on Pakistan. That is where Baluchistan may be right ego-spot at the right place at the right time. Baluchistan does not constitute (though in my opinion it should) a vital Indian interest, so American umpire-ship there would not hurt any core Indian interest and at the same time Pakistan can be caressed.

The focus of interest and attention shifts from a place within India to a place outside India. The Americans can 'force' Indians to go on the defensive in a place outside India, which is not of our vital interest. True to such a reading of the matter, Kashmir was not even mentioned once in the Joint Statement.

n+2nd Theory - Blackmail Theory
Being a 'friend' of Pakistan, America cannot get itself involved in the various insurgencies in Pakistan and call them by their name - freedom struggle of the Baluchis, or Pushtuns, etc.

It cannot make any supportive statements on Baluchistan freedom struggle either, as then the Pakistanis would look upon America as the culprit, as an enemy of Pakistan, and all US-Pak cooperation on the war on Al-Qaeda would come to an abrupt end. So America chooses to take on the role not of the foe but rather of the mediator. Now mediation is a great thing. Both parties run to you to get your support and are willing to bend over even. Since Baluchistan is not a core Indian interest, it is basically the Pakis who would be pleading with USA to support the Pakistanis perspective, and that as more and more information on Baluchistan, and Pakistani atrocities, is made available through the international press.

That gives the Americans a lever. The Pakistanis would be mortified that their basis of control over Baluchistan would be disputed, just as Indians get worked up, when Kashmir's accession to India is disputed.

That gives the Americans a new leverage to force the Pakistanis to behave and cooperate.

n+3rd Theory - The Subversion Theory

It can also be that the Americans feel that the situation in Pakistan is now ripe for the next stage of its development. It is time for Baluchistan to be separated from Pakistan. After all Baluchistan is really a great piece of real estate sitting there on the Arabian Sea with borders with Iran and Afghanistan and further access to Central Asia.

There will be now a whole host of Baloch leaders being given prominence around the world, who will be commenting on various levels of freedom and independence.

An Article from 14.05.2008 - Unveiling the hidden players in Balochistan by Hamid Waheed: Frontier Post
Recent Activities of Mir Suleiman, Khan of Kalat operating from U.K, holding international rallies and submitting letter to 10, Downing Street projecting forcible annexation of Balochistan by Pakistan?
As such the Baluchistan mention in the Joint Statement could be the simply to get a new wedge into the whole internationalization of Baluchistan issue sponsored by America and Britain with India simply playing along.

n+4th Theory - Equal-Equal for Deescalation
Up till now most criticism directed towards MMS has been that now Pakistan can do an equal-equal on terrorism, and can justify terrorism in Kashmir based on alleged Indian involvement in supporting the Baluchistani insurgency.

But this works the other way also - where India and Pakistan agree that if Pakistan deescalates its Pakistan-sponsored terrorism in India including in Kashmir, India may be willing to withhold substantial support to the Baluchis. If Pakistan deescalates, India deescalates. We can force Pakistan to stop terrorism directed at India by extortion, by offering the option of stopping support for Baluchi forces, otherwise increasing it accordingly.

It would be helpful if the Baluchi struggle for Independence is not adjudged as Islamic terrorism in the world media.

************

All the above theories can be wrong. Only time will tell how the cookie crumbles. It will be too early comprehend the Baluchistan mention in the Joint Statement from Sharm-el-Sheikh.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by Sanku »

Very nice RajeshA, an intresting take. However if I may say so, of all the theories that you outline above, start with something like "the Americans..." in the first few lines.

Essentially you are saying that India is now working closely with America to handle Pakistan rather than attempting to do it alone (like Kargil), so one way or the other for those theories to work out well for us, we have to be "nice" to America and depend on their blessings.

I will leave it at that.

---------------------------

PS> Note I am not making a value judgment of any type on a theory, merely an observation of US role.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34917
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by chetak »

For all those timid souls who ever doubted the intentions of the good doctor.

From todays yawn


Proof of RAW involvement in terror acts given to India
By Baqir Sajjad Syed
Wednesday, 22 Jul, 2009 | 03:34 AM PST

ISLAMABAD, July 21: Pakistan has handed over to India comprehensive evidence of Indian involvement in a number of terrorist acts on its soil.

According to sources, a dossier containing proofs of India’s involvement in subversive activities in Pakistan was handed over by Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani to his Indian counterpart Dr Manmohan Singh during their recent meeting at Sharm el-Sheikh in Egypt.

Pakistan has also shared these evidences with the United States and Afghanistan, specifically asking the latter to prevent the use of its soil for disruptive activities against it.

Although the information given to India is being kept highly secret, broad outlines of the dossier available with Dawn reveal details of Indian contacts with those involved in attacks on the Sri Lankan cricket team and the Manawan police station.

Operatives of RAW who remained in touch with the perpetrators of the attacks have been identified and proofs of their interaction have been attached.

Besides, description of Indian arms and explosives used in the attack on the Sri Lankan team has been made part of the dossier. Names and particulars of the perpetrators, who illegally entered Pakistan from India and joined their accomplices who had reached Lahore from Waziristan, have been mentioned.

Furthermore, the evidence of Indian link lists the safe houses being run by RAW in Afghanistan, where terrorists are trained and launched for missions in Pakistan. The dossier also broadly covers the Indian connection in terror financing in Pakistan.

A substantial part of the shared material deals with the Balochistan insurgency and Indian linkages with the insurgents, particularly Bramdagh Bugti, Burhan and Sher Khan. Pictures of their meetings with Indian operatives are part of the evidence, which also describes Bugti’s visit to India and the meetings he had with Indian secret service personnel.

It makes mention of the India-funded Kandahar training camp, where Baloch insurgents, particularly those from Bugti clan, were being trained and provided arms and ammunition for sabotage activities in Balochistan.

The sources claim that Dr Singh agreed to “look into Pakistani claims” and to take “corrective action” if proven. He is said to have assured Mr Gilani that India is against interference in other countries and Pakistan’s stability was important for them.

A joint communiqué, released after the Gilani-Singh meeting in Sharm el-Sheikh, reflected information-sharing because it included reference to Balochistan and the information available to Pakistan; reiteration of Indian commitment to a stable and democratic Pakistan; and an agreement on sharing real time credible and actionable information on any future terrorist threats.

Mr Gilani’s close aides confirmed that in his meeting with Mr Singh he took up the issue of India’s involvement in the attack on the Sri Lankan team and other subversive acts.

Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit said: “Yes, these issues were discussed.”
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Post by amit »

Rajesh,

A good analysis.

About the declaration I think it could very well be that delinking terror with talks was a mistake. However, I think these Jt declarations are not worth the paper they are printed on. We've had so many of these so what? Remember ABV was doing bhai charia with Sharif at Lahore while Muharaff was busy sending troops to Kargil. So was the bhai charia any impediment to Pak chootiya giri or to India's response to Kargil?

Mushy-rat came on TV after Parakaram and publicly pledged to end terror. And so what happened?

Look I'm not trying equate India's actions with Pakistan. All I'm saying is that these Jt Declarations are meaning less and if it was boo boo on the part of the foreign ministry (remember MMS wouldn't be writing the thing on his own) then they deserve a slap on their wrists and then we should all move on.

I think the talk about "bad drafting" and MMS clarification that terror must end before talks is all part of that.

Hence I fail to understand the ronna dhonna going on here - for 19 pages now.

The other point about Baluchistan, the more I think of it the more I'm convinced that it was actually a pretty smart move. In one stroke the Pakis in their tactical brilliance have managed to bilateralise a domestic terror issue. As a parallel, just think, we all know the Chinese provide support to the Maoists.

Now wouldn't the Chinese love it if during our next round of border talks we put it in black and white that the Chinese should stop funding the Maoists thus institutionalising their say our affairs?

And besides whether or not India is or not meddling in Baluchistan will have no bearing on its Kashmir and general terror agenda. I really don't see what new leverage they get from the mention of Baluchistan in the declaration. They've already been accusing our consulates of providing arms and ammunition to BLA, bad Taliban and just about everyone else the Pak Fauji dislikes. What new will they do with the declaration.

India, however, if it chooses can do quite a lot. If Pakistan raises alleged India hand in Baluchistan freedom struggle, it can say it only provides "moral and diplomatic" support etc.

It can call for an end of terror in Baluchistan - both state sponsored terror as well as BLA type of "terror". Hey the possibilities are enormous if handled properly. I'm not sure Pakis traller and mountains and deeper than seas masters are very pleased.

JMT and all disclaimers. (And now putting on my helmet as the sky collapses on me as MMS is traitor brigade gets into the act) :)
Locked