The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

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Virupaksha
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Virupaksha »

sugriva wrote:^^^^
Oh please.... If the BJP was so bothered about corruption then it should have gone back to the source of its legitimacy in Indian politics, the people who vote for it. I am all for the BJP and any other political party taking up the issue of corruption amongst the people. However I can't for one moment countenance self appointed and self important personages like AH and RD taking over the role of the opposition party. The middle classes' support to these two characters, as evidenced on this forum and elsewhere, is reflective of a particularly insular piskology that is looking for shortcuts in its path to political relevance. This is what, I believe, Manoj Joshi's argument is all about. If the middle class is interested in political power, and by jove it should be, it should enter the ring directly rather than using the charade of "civil society" to advance its agenda.
Sugriva,

all this might be new to you. But what congress is doing right now is nothing but rinse and repeat of YSRs tactics against Babu in AP of completely covering the air waves with day in and day out of accusations against the opposition, even though they have been out of power for dog years. Then YSR died, so it took a different turn.

"civil society" charade was by AH, not by BR. One can read all he wants from that. :wink:
What you are seeing is the BJP's ripostes from different directions :wink: hint, hint: govts replacing with NAC.

Whether BJP is true or not, BJP was the only party which articulated a stand against black money, much much better than the what the congress actually DID to block any and all enquiries.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by somnath »

^^^Manoj Joshi isnt the only one, there are lots of (otherwise sensible, certainly not Congress chamchas or anything) people who have expressed disquiet at both the AH as well as the BR phenomena..The govt has acted with an astounding mix of moral deficit, incompetence and even rank political hara-kiri-sm to the situation, but that does not take away the serious dangers of the sort of stuff being attempted by BR...Pratap Bhanu Mehta has an interesting piece in IE..

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/secon ... e/800228/0

The issues about constitutionalism and republican values cannot be wished away..In India we anyway have too many vigilante groups of all types wading into issues and forcing their ways through, usually through street violence - Hussain, Shivaji, Taslima, James Laine, Rohington Mistry, Rushdie - the list is endless..Shall we now have people who want to force an issue, howsoever "moral" it might seem perfunctorily, to subvert democracy itself thorugh this new, "saintly" manner? I mean today it is "black money" (howsoever flimsily the issue is termed by BR), but tomorrow it might be about banning homosexuality (he has termed it as a "disease"), or compulsary replacement of English in school (another of his "pet" theories)...And all of this, from people who are almost openly contemptuous of democracy (remember AH's comments, that anyone will vote for a certain paty in return for 100 rupees and a sari?)...

On the topic itself being peddled, ie, black money..Like most issues, BR has absolutely no comprehension of the issue and its scale - I heard him claim that all the deficits in the US and Europe are funded by Indian black money! :twisted: The figure he quotes is something like 40 or 50 lac crores...For a more reasoned estimate, read Surjit Bhalla (again, no friend of the Congress) here..
http://www.oxusinvestments.com/files/pd ... eyline.pdf

Instinctively, SB's numbers look more accurate than others...Black money, or income that has not been declared, arises due to two reasons - 1) high tax rates, and 2) lack of investment opportunities in the home country...Terror funding etc does not require a huge amount of money...On both those counts, the motivations for people to have undeclared income has drastically reduced over the years...If anything, a lot of people over the years have brought back their overseas wealth into India - a lot of FII and FDI flows into India can be explained by the same phenomenon...

Contrary to the perception in certain group think, the association fo the average citizenry with the politcs of the country has deepened in recent years..Increasing voter participation and an increasing phenomenon of "pro incumbency" is testimony to that....Who is this "civil society" then? Are the rest of the public, who vote and "deal with" the politics of the day, somehow "uncivil"?

Corruption is a legit issue...given the right message and messenger, it can also be a game changing political weapon - remember VP Singh? But VP Singh fought the constitutionally honourable battle - took to the electoral arena...Not assorted do-gooders of various shades with vague understanding the problem, and positively dangerous remedies to them...
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by vera_k »

^^^

But VP Singh was ultimately ineffective and did not command a parliamentary majority of his own. Gandhi, Quattrochi or other accused did not go to jail. Therefore it didn't solve the problem. Perhaps parliament cannot solve it in its current form.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Dhiman »

Cosmo_R wrote: I'm still waiting for the 'Indian Spring'. Go Hosni Manmohan Singh Go!
Hopefully a peaceful one at that. Also, when I hope of peacel", I don't mean to imply that there is a danger of protestors turning violent, what I mean to imply is that there is a danger of government turning violent.
Cosmo_R wrote: MMS who could not be bothered about Mumbai, flexes his muscles on the Ramdev crowd. Of course, he will be saved by the BJP who will instantly reorganize themselves into their patented circular firing squad mode. :)
Thank you for making this point Sir. I have been been trying to make the same point over and over again in my posts. There is an inherent duality in the way GoI tends to operate. Externally GoI tends to acts like saints while as internally they operate like bunch of thugs.

So the government will not lift a finger no matter who, when, and for how long attacks or threatens the country, the same government will have absolutely no hesitation in acting like thugs against the public that they are meant to serve.

On the external front, a "PR only Gandhian image" gives these government functionaries a degree of respect and hides their dhoti-shivering, inability to take action, and lazyness; while as, on the internal front this "PR only Gandhian image" is a perfect tool to hide behind while indulging in large scale loot of public wealth and that too from a public that has barely enough to eat.

Unfortunately for the government, this game has gone on too long and is not fooling anyone now.
Airavat wrote: The Shiv Sena on Monday said that though it disapproved of fast as a political weapon, yoga guru Baba Ramdev was a citizen of India and had every right to create a political space for himself.
He has every right to work towards (peacefully) destabilizing the current government if he so feels to do so. Sibal is truly doing a wonderful job of being the local government idiot without any accountability or hindrance.

If Sibal thinks that Ramdev should stick to doing Yoga only and not indulge in politics, then Sibal should stick to being a lawyer only and not indulge in politics. In any case, Sibal is a Telecom minister, he should stick to Telecom, not home affairs. These ministers have too much time in their hands.
Last edited by Dhiman on 07 Jun 2011 10:42, edited 1 time in total.
Yayavar
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Yayavar »

rsingh wrote: ...
How come nobody on BR can face the comment I made earlier ..........writing it 3rd time here
What if Harami Gilani does the same with the help of other parasites and do the bhukh hartal to take Kashmir to Bakistan?
.
rsinghji, did respond to you in simple words too...but you did not read it looks like.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Arjun »

somnath wrote:^^^Manoj Joshi isnt the only one, there are lots of (otherwise sensible, certainly not Congress chamchas or anything) people who have expressed disquiet at both the AH as well as the BR phenomena..The govt has acted with an astounding mix of moral deficit, incompetence and even rank political hara-kiri-sm to the situation, but that does not take away the serious dangers of the sort of stuff being attempted by BR..
Not at all. Both AH and BR are making the Indian system bring in aspects of direct democracy as opposed to representative democracy, which is very much required....Please readup on direct democracy in case you are not familiar with it. Since India does not yet have a formalized system for direct democracy for particular issues - such as referendum, initiative, recall etc. these citizen's groups are the closest we have. If the government feels that these citizen's groups don't have the backing of the majority of the country on a particular issue then simple- they should not react to it.
Shall we now have people who want to force an issue, howsoever "moral" it might seem perfunctorily, to subvert democracy itself thorugh this new, "saintly" manner? I mean today it is "black money" (howsoever flimsily the issue is termed by BR), but tomorrow it might be about banning homosexuality (he has termed it as a "disease"), or compulsary replacement of English in school (another of his "pet" theories)...And all of this, from people who are almost openly contemptuous of democracy (remember AH's comments, that anyone will vote for a certain paty in return for 100 rupees and a sari?)...
Sure tomorrow it might be homosexuality or replacement of English...if he has the support of civil society on those issues then he certainly has every right to raise them. Only problem is that the support for those issues will not exist.

Btw, even I am contemptuous of the use of money power in Indian democracy. Does that imply that I am contemptuous of democracy?
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Raghavendra »

Just an public announcement, Wikipedia article on Digvijaya Singh has been locked to prevent his blacks deeds like assault on a journalist from being added. The guy who locked it is Malik Shabazz, an admirer of black muslim supremacist Malcolm X. Recent comments of Digvijaya Singh supporting Osama and SIMI terrorists and him getting active support from the american islamists is very fishy to say the least.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Aditya_V »

Cool Down folks! Nothing is going to Change. As Chidambarum aptly put the views of the People in Power in India, the next 15 years it will be Congress or Congress Led Government, I have to agree with them. So all this is Tamasha only.

Come 10 months before elections a Pramod Mutalik will hire goons who bash 10-15 Hapless women and we will be back to discussing such topics only.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Raghavendra »

rsingh wrote:How come nobody on BR can face the comment I made earlier ..........writing it 3rd time here
What if Harami Gilani does the same with the help of other parasites and do the bhukh hartal to take Kashmir to Bakistan?
May be people didnt want to point the inherent stupidity of that argument and embrass you. Asking for a corruption free government is a right of every free citizen of India, asking for division of india is sedition and is punishable. Understood?
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by somnath »

vera_k wrote:^^^
But VP Singh was ultimately ineffective and did not command a parliamentary majority of his own. Gandhi, Quattrochi or other accused did not go to jail. Therefore it didn't solve the problem. Perhaps parliament cannot solve it in its current form.
Anyone feels so, they should go to the people, get a proper mandate, and change the Constitution! Not look to subvert it...
Arjun wrote:Not at all. Both AH and BR are making the Indian system bring in aspects of direct democracy as opposed to representative democracy, which is very much required
Ahh, buzzwords - one variant of "direct democracy" was the one implemented Ayub Ayub Khan in Pak :wink: - great good it di to the Islamic Republic....What works for small European countries need not be practical for India...Many advanced democracies dont have referendum or recall...The "civil society" is not an "in the air concept"...People make up the civil society...Including those who vote, in increasingly large numbers...And there are lots of avenues, pressure points that people can and do use to influence the system - elecotral politics is the highest form of that...In India, we need to make democracy more participative at all levels below elections, but not by saying "elections are all trash, so I would need to have my way through street violence or urban disorder"..
Arjun wrote:If the government feels that these citizen's groups don't have the backing of the majority of the country on a particular issue then simple- they should not react to it.
Thats bizarre...A bunch of Shiv Sena loonies certainly dont command any majority in Mumbai - but all govts are forced to pay heed to its threats on every single non-issue they raise...Similarly, threatening to disrupt urban life in the national capital by going on a fast till a bunch of unrealistic (even dangerous) demands are met, need to be tackled..Not in the manner that the govt showed, but ignoring is not an option..
Arjun wrote:if he has the support of civil society on those issues then he certainly has every right to raise them. Only problem is that the support for those issues will not exist.
you mean BR will not be able to mobilise 1 lac "devotees" pouring into Ramlila for that cause?! And then going on a nationally televised fast? Is that something that can be "ignored" by the govt?
Arjun wrote:Btw, even I am contemptuous of the use of money power in Indian democracy. Does that imply that I am contemptuous of democracy
Two dfferent concepts...Being critical of money power in politics and being contemptuous of democracy itself...AH said that electoral politics are no use because people are bribed to get votes - ergo, electoral democracy is no good, a small cabal of do-gooders will decide what is "good" for the country...
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by vera_k »

Arjun wrote:Both AH and BR are making the Indian system bring in aspects of direct democracy as opposed to representative democracy, which is very much required....Please readup on direct democracy in case you are not familiar with it. Since India does not yet have a formalized system for direct democracy for particular issues - such as referendum, initiative, recall etc. these citizen's groups are the closest we have.
This is a good point. But all the solutions implemented and proposed like the NAC and LokPal are tending towards greater authoritarianism, and in effect will increase incentives for using corrupt practices to influence their working.

Would be better if steps towards direct democracy are favoured in place of greater concentration of power.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by vera_k »

somnath wrote:Anyone feels so, they should go to the people, get a proper mandate, and change the Constitution! Not look to subvert it...
Subverting it is the modus operandi these days. For example, PVNR won that vote after bribing MPs.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Hari Seldon »

It is painfully obvious that the whole of polity (yup NDA types included) colludes in keeping the loot they plundered from the public in their years in power. Hence, there is zero incentive to reform the system from the inside and string, cross-board resistance to any sort of disclosure or exposure. Across the board, mind you.

The recent string of scams exposed and small fry netas going to jail is solely because the SC took the investigation upon itself and there is an honest CJI at the helm.

Hence, there is no hope of corruption-cleansing from insiders to the political system.

Ergo, it fell upon outsiders to take up the fight. Thus we have AH and RD and tomorrow, who knows who else. MIddle India is forced to tender support because, well, what other alternative is there? And if the govt and the pro-establishment media mouthpieces manage to scuttle, divert, divide and fritter away this energy and anger that has been building up, it is game set and match to the govt.

I fully expect enough diversion and bread and circuses to come up next parl session - starting with the communal violence (promotion) bill, of course. There are other NAC mandated freebies in line for seducing sections of a thus-divided electorate after that to ensure smooth passage to UPA-III whenever polls come around. Just my 2 cents only.
Virupaksha
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Virupaksha »

vera_k wrote:
somnath wrote:Anyone feels so, they should go to the people, get a proper mandate, and change the Constitution! Not look to subvert it...
Subverting it is the modus operandi these days. For example, PVNR won that vote after bribing MPs.
or even MMS, why forget his cash for votes saaga?
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Pranav »

NIC Website Site Hacked By Anonymous In Response To Ramdev Action - http://www.thehackernews.com/2011/06/na ... india.html
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Pranav »

somnath wrote: Anyone feels so, they should go to the people, get a proper mandate, and change the Constitution! Not look to subvert it...
This is a valid argument, if you assume that EVMs will not be rigged.

Frankly, Ramdev and Hazare don't have a leg to stand on as long, as long as they don't take up the issue of EVMs.
Last edited by Pranav on 07 Jun 2011 11:33, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by AjayKK »

Two articles by NV Subramanian and John MacLithon.

Ramdev eviction: Entering an era of semi-dictatorship
John MacLithon

Many of the events of the past — Emergency, Operation Bluestar, Indira Gandhi’s assassination, Kashmir insurgency, Rajiv Gandhi’s assassination, the crowning of Sonia Gandhi — were unfortunate. Some were avoidable. For instance, Indira Gandhi imposing the Emergency showed that democracy was fragile and could easily be hijacked.

But what happened on Sunday, June 5, 2011, in the early morning at the Ramlila grounds tops even the imposition of Emergency. The police, armed with teargas and lathis, swooped down on women, children, and old men, all led by a yoga guru who had never harmed anybody in his life but, on the contrary, brought happiness to hundreds of thousands of people.

There is no doubt that nobody in the Congress, not even the prime minister, would have dared to take such a drastic decision, without the express consent of Sonia Gandhi. In fact, only she would have been capable of taking that decision. Thus, she will have to bear the consequences, the karma, of her hostile act against the very core of this country: the millions of peaceful, tolerant Hindus, who were represented at the Ramlila grounds by a hundred thousand of them.
Congress loses the plot; Anna Hazare, BJP gain
NV Subramanian

..in striking back harshly, in full glare of news TV cameras, in the heart of the capital, and in a place — the Ramlila maidan — which is loaded with political significance and memories, the Manmohan Singh government lost the plot. Typically, after Digvijay Singh called Baba Ramdev a “thug” and a “cheat”, the Congress party has been furiously back-pedalling following countrywide revulsion against the brutal police assault on his peaceful followers, including women, children, and the elderly. There has also been a devious attempt to blame the assault on the government, thereby insulating the Sonia Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi.

Ramdev has pointedly targeted Sonia Gandhi for the police action, and called her the “remote-controller” of the Manmohan Singh government, as did Anna Hazare (although allusively) a little earlier. Significantly, both men refrained from speaking harshly of the PM. And now, PMO officials are disclaiming responsibility for the police assault.

The insinuation that an extra-constitutional authority forced the police brutality has been beamed across India repeatedly by the news channels. A two-minute clip is enough to get your blood boiling; the Supreme Court has taken suo moto cognizance of the police violence.

From now, there is no redemption for the Manmohan Singh government. The parallels with the situation that lead to the imposition of Emergency are striking. A mother’s ambitions for her son are at the core of the present and the past crises. The only difference is that a decent prime minister has served as a cover so far, but no longer. Manmohan Singh is too weak and frayed to be able to retrieve the situation. And the Congress allies commencing with the DMK to the NCP are baying for its blood. Anti-Congressism is peaking.

While the Congress may suppress and blackmail its allies and try to manipulate the image of the opposition and dilute any issue-based politics, it has had, historically, no solutions to a single-agenda based election which revolves around a mass wave of Anti-Congressim. When the electorate is lulled by a false sense of well being, it may not identify with various problems such as terrorism, fake secularism and manipulative distortions of democracy. However, if the same electorate is gripped by a strong sense of not identifying itself with the Congress, then the Party is in trouble.

History seems to repeat itself when the Congress gets a major boost in the Lok Sabha elections. After getting huge increments in seats, they tend to chart a self destructive course. At 352 and 404 Lok Sabha seats, Indira's government in the 5th Lok Sabha and Rajiv's government in the 8th Lok Sabha were more stronger than the current strength of 205. Of course, in the time of coalition politics, the Congress has a strong grip on its allies by following politics of blackmail. It is an open secret that Mayawati, Mulayam and such secular parties do not wish to turn the heat on themselves and hence support the Congress at the Centre. It is a perfect Mughal setup in which the Dilli Darbar is supported by the states, to which it has divested responsibility.

However, if the Darbar itself does not manage itself, its allies cannot propel the Sultanate. The claim that the opposition is in shambles in acceptable and true. However, an electorate with a strong sense of dis-satisfaction with the Centre bodes no good for it.

If you have good hair, you may think of oiling it with herbal oil, washing it with Shikakai powder and conditioning it with the choicest conditioner. However, when you got lice, it does not matter what brand of toothy-comb or lice-removal shampoo is used.
Virupaksha
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Virupaksha »

is some doing MMS bhajan on his wiki page? No mentions of the scams under him, cash for votes, CWG, 2G, transfer of authority to a non-elected NAC, nothing.

an eulogy might have more harsh statements than that wiki page
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Sanku »

Peaceful protestation is now subversion of constitution in India?

Ack thoo....
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by somnath »

vera_k wrote:Subverting it is the modus operandi these days. For example, PVNR won that vote after bribing MPs.
Well, and the stench of coruption ensured the permanent poltiical demise of (IMO) India's best PM ever, and set his party back by years, through the same electoral politics..

The so-called "civil society" wallahs need to introspect on what they are asking for - people like Prashant Bhushan have been at the forefront of protecting individual civil liberties for years, of causes popular as well as unpopular..Today, on the issue of Lokpal, he takes a stance of "my way or the highway" - if not, then the "fast way"...

There are successful templates of "civil society" interventions - Priyanka Matoo, Nitish Katara, petrol pump allotment scam, 2G - in all these cases, mobilisations of various segments of society (media, judiciary, ordinary middle class folks on marches to India Gate) meant that the govt was forced to act..It is still very underdeveloped in India, but the solutoin is to deepen these forces, not replace them with assorted babas and do-gooders coating a supercially "moral" message on essentially anti-democratic methods, and maybe even political ambitions of their own...
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Arjun »

somnath wrote:Ahh, buzzwords
Suggest you drop usage of pompous-sounding words of dismissal in your debating style.
What works for small European countries need not be practical for India...Many advanced democracies dont have referendum or recall...
So who are your benchmarks of democratic ideals? Obviously not the UK, Switzerland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Italy? A large number of US states allow for direct democracy.
elecotral politics is the highest form of that...In India, we need to make democracy more participative at all levels below elections, but not by saying "elections are all trash, so I would need to have my way through street violence or urban disorder"..
1. Direct democracy is not a substitute for electoral politics. It works along with electoral politics.
2. Obviously street violence is not acceptable. Why are you even bringing that up?
Thats bizarre...A bunch of Shiv Sena loonies certainly dont command any majority in Mumbai - but all govts are forced to pay heed to its threats on every single non-issue they raise
Who's talking of the Shiv Sena?
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by sugriva »

Congress loses the plot; Anna Hazare, BJP gain :rotfl:

Unlike what the DNA will have you believe, it is the BJP that has the most to lose from this AH/RD phenomenon. For a variety of reasons the middle class has traditionaly voted for the BJP. BR's supporters are also co-terminus with that of the BJP's core constituency. Anti Congressionalism will only polarise these voters in favour of RD, thereby cutting down the BJP's vote share. If you don't believe then see what just happened in the BJP today. Uma Bharati has come back to the party and will lead its campaign in the UP elections. The BJP is now running scared of the RD phenomenon and has got back Uma Bharati to bolster its appeal in the OBC/MBC segment.
Last edited by sugriva on 07 Jun 2011 12:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Virupaksha »

Standard protocol of Sonia bhajan gangs.

Any mention of congress irrespective of any topic, bring in Shiv Sena, Muthalik (a congress propped up party), MNS another congress propped up one, then tar any one in opposition to congress as equivalent as them. Then the issue is now MNS, Shiv Sena and co, not the original topic.

Rinse and repeat

Ofcourse,
congress alliances with Indian Union Muslim League, Majlis-ittehadul-musliemeen and many many other organisations is all secular onlee. Dare anyone call Sonia communal.
Last edited by Virupaksha on 07 Jun 2011 11:51, edited 2 times in total.
Virupaksha
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Virupaksha »

sugriva wrote:Congress loses the plot; Anna Hazare, BJP gain :rotfl:

Unlike what the DNA will have you believe it is the BJP that has the most to lose from this AH/RD phenomenon. For a variety of reasons the middle class has traditionaly voted for the BJP. BR's supporters are also co-terminus with that of the BJP's core constituency. Anti Congressionalism will only polarise these voters for RD, thereby cutting down the BJP's vote share. Don't believe, then see what just happened in the BJP today. - Uma Bharati to come back to the BJP and lead its campaign in the UP elections. The BJP is now shit scared of the RD phenomenon and have therefore got back Uma Bharati.
and what if BJP allies with RD??
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Pranav »

Nice article ... John MacLithon is apparently the pen name of Mark Tully, formerly of the BBC.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by vera_k »

somnath wrote:There are successful templates of "civil society" interventions - Priyanka Matoo, Nitish Katara, petrol pump allotment scam, 2G - in all these cases, mobilisations of various segments of society (media, judiciary, ordinary middle class folks on marches to India Gate) meant that the govt was forced to act..It is still very underdeveloped in India, but the solutoin is to deepen these forces, not replace them with assorted babas and do-gooders coating a supercially "moral" message on essentially anti-democratic methods, and maybe even political ambitions of their own...
Growing political awareness means that there will be many more do-gooders around who will want to push any number of issues. IMO the government doesn't want to enable direct democracy via recalls, referendums or citizen sponsored initiatives simply because those steps will be bad for its corruption business. Therefore there is the emergence of unelected phenomenon like the NAC, Anna Hazare, Ramdev.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by somnath »

Arjun wrote:Suggest you drop usage of pompous-sounding words of dismissal in your debating style
You brought up "buzzwords" like "direct democracy" - I was only pointing out some not-so-savoury instance of the same..Esential point being, buzzwords cannot replace the essential message, thats all..
Arjun wrote:So who are your benchmarks of democratic ideals? Obviously not the UK, Switzerland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Italy? A large number of US states allow for direct democracy
In UK, referenda are legally non-binding, and used very very sparingly (not more than 7-8 in the last 50 years, I think)...Conducting referenda in a country of 1.2 billion is logisticaly a very different proposition from doing one in a country of 50 million (or 20 million)...Which is perhaps one reason why the US doesnt have a federal referendum, and from what I know the local referenda allowed are very very minor and not on anything substantive..

Regardles, India has a big agenda in enegendinrg participative democracy - a referendum is neither necessary nor sufficient condition for that...Above all, BR or AH are hardly talking about doing a referendum..
2. Obviously street violence is not acceptable. Why are you even bringing that up?
Who's talking of the Shiv Sena?
I was responding to your "let the govt ignore if it thinks they dont have majority support" proposition..Shiv Sena has NO majority support on anything in Mumbai, the govt cannt ignore it, can it? About the modus operandi of BR, a nationally teelvised "fast", preceded by long "negotiations" with the govt, followed by public propnouncements of govt "breaking its promises", and then saying "either my way or my fast", all in the middle of Delhi - no govt can ignore it, even if none of the propositions actually have anywhere clsoe to majority support..

This govt was especially bad in tackling this, but doesnt mean that either now, or in a similar event in the future, it can be "ignored"..
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Raghavendra »

sugriva wrote: BR's supporters are also co-terminus with that of the BJP's core constituency. Anti Congressionalism will only polarise these voters in favour of RD, thereby cutting down the BJP's vote share.
Ramdev is not running a political party neither contesting elections.

Wonder why congressis are scared of accepting the fact that sonia's ugly dictatorial face has been bared, cant handle a anti-corruption rally without resorting to violence, Now who are the fascists and goons, sonia and muthalik are the same violent people posing as politicians, only sonia has the advantage of using police to beat her opponents and act like nothing happened. Wonder why no one from congress media is supporting Rajbala devi? You know were the orders to keep quiet came from.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Pranav »

RSS to sue Digvijay Singh for pinning shoe attack on Sangh - http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rss-t ... gh/800316/
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by AjayKK »

sugriva wrote:

Unlike what the DNA will have you believe it is the BJP that has the most to lose from this AH/RD phenomenon. For a variety of reasons the middle class has traditionaly voted for the BJP. BR's supporters are also co-terminus with that of the BJP's core constituency. Anti Congressionalism will only polarise these voters for RD, thereby cutting down the BJP's vote share. Don't believe, then see what just happened in the BJP today. - Uma Bharati to come back to the BJP and lead its campaign in the UP elections. The BJP is now shit scared of the RD phenomenon and have therefore got back Uma Bharati.
Sugriva, while it is difficult to put across points in a page where Ayub Khan, Shiv Sena and comprehension skills are tagged with smileys, an attempt can be made. The electoral landscape has greatly changed since the 80s.

Pre-80s era politics played on the basis of an Abrahmic binary type in which the Congress was the pole which represented the good/ON state while the rest were supposed to carry the sins of mankind. However, in the post 80s coaition era, managing your "space" is utmost important. Ever the economically-strong party due to its tie-ups with all sources of white and black money, the Congress plays the part of a Praying Mantis very well. By inviting partners to mate with it, it subsequently snuffs out life of the same partner, truly a parasitic-symbiotic relationship which ends with the subjugation of the partner.

At the same time, the Congress tries to deny space to anyone who would not be a potential ally by breaking them down directly or through covert coercive ways by laying out lucrative options. Denial of space to a non-complying opponent is then the biggest political tool of the coalition era. Thus, there is the need to create a Praja Rajyam or a DMDK.

On the other hand, Bharat Swabhiman of Baba Ramdev goes way beyond electorally replacing the idea of the Congress by sanitising the electoral landscape that will prevent the rise of the Congress in those areas for a lot of time to come. Once the Congress has completely lost the mandate to hold to a state, it is difficult to regain a foothold. Then, it needs to deal with allies like IUML which are coalition managers' nightmare.

When, not if, Baba Ramdev and such electoral santisation movements do succeed, even in one or two major states like UP or Rajasthan the space for "non-Congress" will increase. It is not an "either BJP" or "Baba Ramdev" question. Either Congress increases its space or cuts down the space of non-complying opposition. When it is faced with an situation where neither is possible and its own space is shrinking, it acts like a chaotic bunch of humanoids trying to find out a "smart" way where none would exist. We give too much credit to the "management" processes of the Congress, but it is very much infallible when it faces a geographically-united anti-Congress wave as in 1975-77 and as on November 2, 1990 in Ayodhya when Rajiv-Mulayam duo had the blood of Indians from all four corners of the country on their hands.

I agree with what has been written by Brihaspati ji in the Distorted history thread.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p1104554
Ultimately, people - don't worry. What the regime is doing will ultimately rule out - by their own actions - "peaceful" resolutions. Indian prajaa had an ancient record of doing a "dimba" (or a violent "raashtrabiplava") with kings who had crossed all limits of tolerance and refused or undermined peaceful attempts at amelioration form the prajaa.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Arjun »

vera_k wrote:Growing political awareness means that there will be many more do-gooders around who will want to push any number of issues. IMO the government doesn't want to enable direct democracy via recalls, referendums or citizen sponsored initiatives simply because those steps will be bad for its corruption business. Therefore there is the emergence of unelected phenomenon like the NAC, Anna Hazare, Ramdev.
Exactly right. As long as the govt does not formalize a direct democracy scheme like initiative or referendum - these kind of citizen's initiatives will continue to flourish and should continue to flourish.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Pranav »

Baba Ramdev declares support to Anna Hazare fast on Wednesday
Submitted by Deepti Rajan on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 12:30

Baba Ramdev has declared support to tomorrow's agitation and fast by veteran Gandhian Anna Hazare at Jantar Mantar in Delhi.

"Lakhs of our followers will participate in tomorrow's program," Baba said at Haridwar moments ago.


"There may be personal differences, but for the country as a whole, we support Shanti Bhushan and others," he said. Shanti Bhushan had expressed reservations about the methods adopted by Baba Ramdev during his recent agitation, possibly hinting at his close association with perceived rightist persons like Sadhvi Ritambara.

However, once the demonstration was beaten down by the government, Bhushan was amongst the first deplore the act.

The move is likely to complicate the picture for the Government which is still to decide on how to treat tomorrow's planned fast and demonstration by Anna Hazare and other leaders of the Lokpal movement.

While the Government is technically entitled to say yes or no to the Wednesday fast by Anna Hazare, the Civil Society leaders have already announced that they are willing to be arrested if the Government cracks down on tomorrow's protest as well.

http://rtn.asia/584_baba-ramdev-declare ... -wednesday
This is going to get interesting. What if huge crowds show up at Jantar Mantar, they cannot arrest everybody.

A commonly used ploy in such scenarios is to infiltrate the crowd with agent provocateurs or planted useful idiots, and then use some excuse to stage a brutal crackdown.
Last edited by Pranav on 07 Jun 2011 12:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Arjun »

somnath wrote:In UK, referenda are legally non-binding, and used very very sparingly (not more than 7-8 in the last 50 years, I think)...Conducting referenda in a country of 1.2 billion is logisticaly a very different proposition from doing one in a country of 50 million (or 20 million)...Which is perhaps one reason why the US doesnt have a federal referendum, and from what I know the local referenda allowed are very very minor and not on anything substantive..
I agree they need to be used sparingly for something the public considers extremely important. It is the government that does not seem to realize that corruption has emerged as one such critical issue in the minds of most Indians.
Above all, BR or AH are hardly talking about doing a referendum..
Then let the government respond by saying there needs to be a referendum on the issue to determine what the majority wants.
About the modus operandi of BR, a nationally teelvised "fast", preceded by long "negotiations" with the govt, followed by public propnouncements of govt "breaking its promises", and then saying "either my way or my fast", all in the middle of Delhi - no govt can ignore it, even if none of the propositions actually have anywhere clsoe to majority support..
If I start on a fast tomorrow on any issue the government is not going to engage with me....it is only because it perceives that AH/BR as personalities and corruption as an issue together do have public support. They finally did change their mind on Saturday and concluded that they could call BR's bluff and that he does not have majority support. Only thing to do is await further developments and see who is right.

Added later: If the govt had concluded that BR does not have majority support, it should have stopped the dialogue with BR. But there is of course no excuse for the police action on a peaceful protest.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Virupaksha »

AjayKK wrote:Then, it needs to deal with allies like IUML which are coalition managers' nightmare.
AjayKK ji,

taking nothing away from the rest of the post, the alliance of the congress with IUML/MIM has been one of the strongest alliances they have had. They have held except in 1-2 instances since 1960.

The shiv sena/bjp tie up is comparatively weaker than IUML/congress or Razakar MIM/congress (many times tacit) tie ups.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Philip »

Latest media reports now say the Sonia was in the "dark" about the police "putsch" and that Sibal is the real culprit! There appears to be two power centres in the Congress,the PMO representing the govt.,and Janpath crowd,representing the party.In recent times,right from the N-deal,the divisions within the party and gvot. have come to the fore and the cracks will now widen further.The govt. has scored a sensational own goal and given massive space and publicity to the Yoga Baba,who should've simply been ignored from the start.Great entertainment though,with AH and RB each supporting the other's fast,etc., when they are actually vying for top fasting-dog status themselves! I am simply enraged sometims by the use of the word "unfortunate",by our political wallahs.It is such a mild word-unfortunate, ideally used if you tripped and fell and broke a nail,etc.,for small incidents like that. In the past the LTTE termed Rajiv's assasination as "unfortunate".The 2-G scam,was "unfortunate",so are Paki terror attacks are "unfortunate",as if they were spots of bad luck!

We now have Man Mubarak Singh term the midnight rouse and rout of the sleeping yoga devotees and their eccentric Baba-old men ,women and children in true ersatz Auschwitz style as "unfortunate".I sincerely wish that his removal from the post of PM is as swift as his "putsch".It however would not at all be "unfortunate"!

PS:Great cartoon by Ninan in a paper.Parents looking on as their children watch telly,th father saying that with all the scams on telly,the kids think that the latest show is called "Anna-Baba and the forty thieves"!
Last edited by Philip on 07 Jun 2011 17:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by sugriva »

AjayKK wrote:On the other hand, Bharat Swabhiman of Baba Ramdev goes way beyond electorally replacing the idea of the Congress by sanitising the electoral landscape that will prevent the rise of the Congress in those areas for a lot of time to come. Once the Congress has completely lost the mandate to hold to a state, it is difficult to regain a foothold.
AjayKK, Cleansing the electoral process is all fine and dandy. Somebody has to gain from this cleansing. Who do you think will gain from it? The BJP ? The Congress ? The Left? You assume that the Congress can't gain advantage of this cleansing process? What makes you think so? Given the "hamam me sab nange hain" state of affairs of all the parties, the Congress has an equal chance of coming back to power all other things being equal. So let us not go down that "electoral sanitization is a huge game changer scenario" path.
Last edited by sugriva on 07 Jun 2011 13:28, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by somnath »

Arjun wrote: agree they need to be used sparingly for something the public considers extremely important. It is the government that does not seem to realize that corruption has emerged as one such critical issue in the minds of most Indians
the exercise of finding out what the public "considers" itself is a referendum! In most countries therefore, the conditions and causes of one are defined very very tightly, esp. national referenda...In India, IMO it wont work at all - conducting a referendum even once in 2 years would be pretty similar to conducting a general election every two years...Not pratical...There are other modes of increasing roots of participative democracy..
Arjun wrote:Then let the government respond by saying there needs to be a referendum on the issue to determine what the majority wants
refererendum isnt in the Constitution -how can the govt ask for one? As for what the "majority" wants, if the "majority" of India thinks that there is 50 lac crores of black money lying around which the govt isnt bringing back intentionally, anyone, BJP, Baba Ramdev or anyone can make it an issue in the next general elections...In recent memory, two govts were sent out of power on the issue of public corruption...
Arjun wrote:If I start on a fast tomorrow on any issue the government is not going to engage with me
If you have the ability to mobilise a couple of lac chaps to flood the national capital, or create general mayhem on the street, or get non-stop mass media coverage, rest assured the govt is going to have to engage with you, irrespective of whether you can save your deposit in an assembly election...

Unfortunately, the govt has lost its moral bearings, as well as political instincts...It first bent over backwards and sent 4 ministers (incl Pranab Mukherjee, no less) to negotiate, and then sent in the police...A better tuned dispensation would have spoken to the public themselves (ideally through someone like MMS or Sonia Gandhi), and given the "tough love message" to BR through relatively lower level emissaries...Imagine if MMS (or SG) came on national TV and said - "we recognise the issue about black money, but the scale in our estimate is far lower than the numbers being bandied...This is what we are doing to tackle the issue...Let anyone with a good idea come and talk to us...But we are not going to be able to allow anyone diturb order in the national capital"..the impact would have been very different...IMO of course..
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Manishw »

I saw LKA cribbing that the President is not responsive on T.V, also RD said that the judiciary has 3+ crore cases pending and so fast track courts are required.Starting from the Ram Mandir Issue all Rashtriya institutions are under attack.This is the time when Intense pressure continues to build up because of the inherent contradictions in the Rashtraa itself.
These are not coincidences.To me it seems whenever the Majority community reaches a level of 70% such fissures start appearing.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by svinayak »

Manishw wrote:I saw LKA cribbing that the President is not responsive on T.V, also RD said that the judiciary has 3+ crore cases pending and so fast track courts are required.Starting from the Ram Mandir Issue all Rashtriya institutions are under attack.This is the time when Intense pressure continues to build up because of the inherent contradictions in the Rashtraa itself.
These are not coincidences.To me it seems whenever the Majority community reaches a level of 70% such fissures start appearing.
It is about the small elite group hijacking the govt.
The nuclear deal gave lot of MNC acccess inside the lobby groups and they have taken control. The nexus has to be broken
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Manishw »

Acharya wrote: It is about the small elite group hijacking the govt.
The nuclear deal gave lot of MNC acccess inside the lobby groups and they have taken control. The nexus has to be broken
Very True Acharya Ji, Taking an educated guess , it seems that the Anglo saxons are behind them.The last time such thing happened was in 1947, it seems to be no coincidence that even then the world was being reconfigured after GW2 and Pakistan and many small states were born at that time.Today also the world is in turmoil which seems to be increasing.
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