Bharat Rakshak

Guten Tag meine Damen und Herren,

News from "Vaterland " - Pakis queueing up for German Visa

Besonders drastisch ist der Anstieg bei den Pakistanern. Ihre Zahl habe sich im Vergleich zu 2010 auf gut 2.500 verdreifacht.

Meaning-------> Particularly drastic is the rise in asylum seekers from Pakistan. In comparison to 2010, the numbers have risen 3 times to 2500.
Real meaning--> TSP is is inhospitable SH1THOLE!

vnadendla wrote:Can you do the same for India. How long would it take for us to become a Singapore given rates of growth of certain drivers. Or point us to published work in the field.

There is a case to be made that India is singularly inefficient in converting the fruit of economic growth into the general welfare of her people compared to the peer group of countries. As with most things economic, evidence is rarely clear-cut and all kinds of arguments can be made.

Anyway, it will take an 18-fold increase in per capita GDP (purchasing power parity) for India to match Singapore.

Pliss indulge me further folks - I am suffering from a bad case of verbal diarrhoea.

shiv wrote: What next? Should we "punish Pakistan" for deeds done in the past? This seems like a good idea because Pakistan has been punishing us for nothing. But once we start punishing Pakistan - they will have more reason to keep punishing us back so unless we "solve the problem" with one massive war we are unlikely to get any resolution. There seems to be only three options

1. Build up our defences against terror and do nothing more, but this will not spare us from terror
2. Conduct a massive war to "take Pakistan down" - I don't think that is feasible
3. Hit Pakistan with covert action - but this still does not solve the issue of Pakistan continuing to hit us even if it gives us the satisfaction of giving as good as we get.

The only remaining option is to somehow "convince" Pakistan that it is not in Pakistani interests to continue hitting us. What can be done in this regard? More on this later.

The only real way to "convince" Pakistan that that it is not in Packee interests to keep hitting India is to make the act of hitting painful. Of course we have been through all this before. Pakistan wants to avoid such pain and hence hits India "deniably" via proxies.in Bdesh and SIMI. This makes it inconvenient to do a 1:1/tit for tat punishment of Pakistan.

The other alternative is to hit them using covert means. Do to them what they are doing to us. But that will hardly stop them. Their terrorism hurts but does not "stop" India. Similarly covert action will hurt them but not stop them.

A third possibility is to hurt them without war. In this day and age, this is called "sanctions". Sanctions can hurt to varying degrees. Sanctions can range from travel restrictions to trade and export restrictions. India and Pakistan have had each other under "sanctions" for a fairly long time esp wrt to travel. Trade restrictions are mostly self imposed by Pakistan. This leads to an interesting situation. Pakistan produces virtually nothing that the rest of the world wants. But India would buy a lot of things from Pakistan - a lot of stuff like onions, cement, vegetables, etc. Low tech items that are too perishable or too costly to ship anywhere. Pakistan exports some cotton, leather and rice but any agri surplus is of little use because of trade barriers with India. However the things that Pakistan imports like high tech goods, including cars, electronics, weapons etc come to Pakistan from the west and China, not from India. (Well some from India too)

What this means is that trade with India can benefit the poorest 50% of Pakistan by buying their produce. The wealthy of Pakistan anyway get what they need from their 3.5 friends. If the Paki economy starts roaring on its own then there is little pressure that India can apply on Pakistan. But there is little chance of the Paki economy to roar on its own. They produce nothing other than babies and terrorists and their education system is not coping. So as long as the Paki economy is sinking it is good for India because India holds the key to uplift the Paki economy. No one else really wants the stuff they produce, but Pakistan could competitively export to India because of the price advantage of proximity.

The Pakistan ruling elite have been kept well fed for decades by the US and other donors, but that has gradually eroded the condition of Pakistan's teeming millions who are currently unfit to roar into a 21st century economy. Pakistani economic woes are a lever that India can use. IMO India actually holds the key to Pakistan's economy. But India must use this key only if Pakistan stops using violence against India. So while we cannot get Pakis to love India we can force them to eat humble pie. Bow their heads and stop attacking if they want economic rescue in a way that no other country can offer.

Pakistan has needed to do this for years now, but has been artificially supported by the US and KSA mainly for their own needs. The Pakistani population is dead right in figuring out that their association with the US has been no good for them. But only a few Pakis have realised that the association with the US has been very good for the army. Or they realise it but can't say it out loud. But they are asking the US to get out now. India is capable of stepping right in. But it won't be arms aid.

If all this is true, guess what the Paki army would desire now?

@Shiv sir

Regarding the trade part the scenario what you stated is clearly understood by the PA thats the reason why they scuttle a lot of trade talks by being unreasonable If i remember correctly this can be explained as any booming trade will significantly downgrade their importance in Pakistan .I don't see trade as a very good idea as the PA is perfectly aware of its after effects.The PA will self-impose the trade sanctions wrt to India,

Sir,you have to think of other alternatives to keep PA in doc.How about my idea uprisings against all feudals ala Maoists using Taliban.For that we need to significantly increase our overt and covert capability

A_Gupta wrote:

vnadendla wrote:Can you do the same for India. How long would it take for us to become a Singapore given rates of growth of certain drivers. Or point us to published work in the field.

There is a case to be made that India is singularly inefficient in converting the fruit of economic growth into the general welfare of her people compared to the peer group of countries. As with most things economic, evidence is rarely clear-cut and all kinds of arguments can be made.

My view on this
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1233758

Ashok Gottipati wrote: Sir,you have to think of other alternatives to keep PA in doc.How about my idea uprisings against all feudals ala Maoists using Taliban.For that we need to significantly increase our overt and covert capability

Even when India does nothing, Pakistani problems are blamed on India. That does not mean that we should not or are not taking covert action. If we are I don't know about it.

But look at it this way. Suppose Pakistan, by some magic suddenly told India tomorrow "We will stop all terror and we will stop asking for water or Kashmir, but please stop terrorism and violence in Pakistan" would we be able to do that?

No. Because India is not responsible for all the violence in Pakistan and can hardly stop it. Violence and social failure in Pakistan is a given fact. It has happened despite US, Saudi and Chinese aid and it has occurred without Indian intervention. Pakistan is in a state of violent social, demographic and economic failure. The US cannot stop that. China cannot stop that. KSA can't stop that.

But Pakis say India can stop their failure by giving them Kashmir. Clearly India can't stop Pakistan's failure either and India is not going to give them Kashmir even if it would stop their failure. But India can do more than the US, KSA and China put together to help Pakistan lift itself out of failure. But that comes at a price that Pakistan has to pay. That price is to stop all violence against India, stop trying to get Kashmir and stop trying to change borders by force.

So far Pakistan has refused to pay that price and is in a state where the US does not know what to do with Pakistan and china is keeping off development projects in Pakistan. If Pakistan does not pay the price, India is going to put up with terror indefinitely and balls to the concerns of the USA and China who are also feeling the heat. Pakistan is deliberately failing so that anyone can get hurt - with the idea that India will eventually be prevailed upon to allow itself to be ruled by Paki jihadis. Hilariously India is quite happy to see everyone else get hurt because it was only India hurting so far. So Pakistan is not helping its cause by failing.

IMO India can help Pakistan in many ways. But the violence and border changing must end. But for that the Paki army must get weaker. For that the US and china must stop funding the army. The US makes specious remarks that the Pakistan army has used proxies against India, but they never say how the Pakistan army has been funded by them. The US needs to stop arming Pakistan for it own good. But US leaders may not really know what is good for the US any more. We may well be looking at the beginning of the USA's decline. Interesting times.

Arun Menon wrote: Hello, my first post here:

I understand that trading with Porkistan has certain benefits to offer us, but wouldn't it also create a lobby in India (something akin to Bollywood, but only much more powerful) that would hamper any punitive action that we take regarding Porkistan, if and when the next terror attack happens. Even if whatever actions we take are not very productive, facilitating more terror acts would be unfortunate in my opinion. Along with their nukes, it will be another thing they draw courage from with regard to terror and retaliation from India.

Welcome to BRF. This is a difficult question to answer as a prediction. I can only go by past precedents.

In the past, whenever Pakistan has sought to change the borders by force, India has resisted and has had no political opposition to war with Pakistan under those circumstances. However Indians have opposed war with Pakistan after "mere" terrorist acts - such as after the parliament attack.

The conditionality for cooperating with Pakistan would be no war to change border. No terror. If trade with India makes Pakistan better the argument I have heard from people hated on BRF such as Mani Shankar Aiyer and Chidu is that there will be a constituency in Pakistan that opposes war with India.

But as long as the Paki military remains powerful, all this cannot happen. First the Paki army has to be defanged, Forget nukes. Nukes change the game and no one is going to use them easily. We should not scare ourselves silly with Pak nukes, serious as they are.

Neela wrote:Guten Tag meine Damen und Herren,

News from "Vaterland " - Pakis queueing up for German Visa

Besonders drastisch ist der Anstieg bei den Pakistanern. Ihre Zahl habe sich im Vergleich zu 2010 auf gut 2.500 verdreifacht.

Meaning-------> Particularly drastic is the rise in asylum seekers from Pakistan. In comparison to 2010, the numbers have risen 3 times to 2500.
Real meaning--> TSP is is inhospitable SH1THOLE!

could be pakistani terrorist handlers trying to enter germany with their trained recruits to attack german targets

A German Jihad Colony
Islamists in Pakistan Recruit Entire Families from Europe
http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 64,00.html

Even when India does nothing, Pakistani problems are blamed on India. That does not mean that we should not or are not taking covert action. If we are I don't know about it.

But look at it this way. Suppose Pakistan, by some magic suddenly told India tomorrow "We will stop all terror and we will stop asking for water or Kashmir, but please stop terrorism and violence in Pakistan" would we be able to do that?

No. Because India is not responsible for all the violence in Pakistan and can hardly stop it. Violence and social failure in Pakistan is a given fact. It has happened despite US, Saudi and Chinese aid and it has occurred without Indian intervention. Pakistan is in a state of violent social, demographic and economic failure. The US cannot stop that. China cannot stop that. KSA can't stop that.

But Pakis say India can stop their failure by giving them Kashmir. Clearly India can't stop Pakistan's failure either and India is not going to give them Kashmir even if it would stop their failure. But India can do more than the US, KSA and China put together to help Pakistan lift itself out of failure. But that comes at a price that Pakistan has to pay. That price is to stop all violence against India, stop trying to get Kashmir and stop trying to change borders by force.

So far Pakistan has refused to pay that price and is in a state where the US does not know what to do with Pakistan and china is keeping off development projects in Pakistan. If Pakistan does not pay the price, India is going to put up with terror indefinitely and balls to the concerns of the USA and China who are also feeling the heat. Pakistan is deliberately failing so that anyone can get hurt - with the idea that India will eventually be prevailed upon to allow itself to be ruled by Paki jihadis. Hilariously India is quite happy to see everyone else get hurt because it was only India hurting so far. So Pakistan is not helping its cause by failing.

Sir,until here what you said is correct and apt .The monkey trap doctrine strongly resonates with your line of thought and any pragmatic patriots line of thought who has a good grip on the ground realities

IMO India can help Pakistan in many ways. But the violence and border changing must end. But for that the Paki army must get weaker. For that the US and china must stop funding the army. The US makes specious remarks that the Pakistan army has used proxies against India, but they never say how the Pakistan army has been funded by them. The US needs to stop arming Pakistan for it own good. But US leaders may not really know what is good for the US any more. We may well be looking at the beginning of the USA's decline. Interesting times.

So long as the PA exists as a professional army sir they may not be able to fight other armies but effective when it comes to squashing some Jihadi Abduls balls .Why Iam particularly stressing about a class warfare ala Maoist in the garb of Islam(in my previous posts) is it will effective destroy the PA Afsar-Abdul relations very effectively and at the same time the feudals will be hunted like bunnies .Most importantly the PA disciplined will get phucked (this is the most important sir) irrespective of US funds and weapons the army discipline is the main hurdle in the destruction of PA.The Islamic maoist feudal uprising must specifically happen in Punjab and Sindh sir,,enough Pakistan is wrecked beyond repair

Neela wrote:Guten Tag meine Damen und Herren,

Meaning-------> Particularly drastic is the rise in asylum seekers from Pakistan. In comparison to 2010, the numbers have risen 3 times to 2500.
Real meaning--> TSP is is inhospitable SH1THOLE!

There is a well oiled machinery in Pakistan to find loopholes in the laws of countries around the world to apply for immigration and asylum. This is supported by the government who calls it "labor export ". This is because the government doesn't have to feed and clothe these pakis and they on the other hand send money home. Remittances are a huge source of forex for pakis. For example the laws in west Germany which encouraged defection and immigration from soviet block countries was exploited most by the pakis. This is not a new phenomenon. even Naipaul has written about it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/28/world ... ml?_r=1&hp

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Unidentified assailants rained rockets on Pakistan’s elite military academy on Friday morning, in an unusual burst of violence near the compound where Osama bin Laden was killed in May.

Nine rockets were fired from a hilltop overlooking Abbottabad, a garrison town 35 miles north of Islamabad, said Khalid Khan Umarzai, the commissioner of Abbottabad division.

Three rockets hit the wall of the Pakistan Military Academy, Pakistan’s equivalent of West Point. “Some exploded, some did not,” Mr. Umarzai said. “There was no loss of life.”

No group claimed responsibility, and the military said it had dispatched investigators.

“I don’t know who could be involved because I don’t remember any previous incident like this” close to the academy, said Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas, an army spokesman.

Abbottabad gained global attention last May as the scene of the dramatic Navy Seal raid that killed Osama bin Laden, and plunged American relations with Pakistan into turmoil.

The town is the birthplace of Aslam Awan, a Pakistani national killed in an American drone strike in North Waziristan on Jan. 10. American officials described Mr. Awan, who studied in Britain, as a senior external operations planner for Al Qaeda.

Additionally, Umar Patek, an Indonesian militant accused of involvement in the 2002 Bali bombings that killed 202 people, was arrested in Abbottabad by Pakistani authorities in January 2011. The United States government had offered a $1 million reward for Mr. Patek’s capture.

But the town had otherwise escaped the militant bloodshed that has plagued Pakistan in recent years. It has suffered no suicide bombings and few shootings.

As well as being home to thousands of soldiers, Abbottabad is located between the turbulent border regions and the disputed territory of Kashmir, which has been a source of conflict between Pakistan and India for more than six decades. Since the 1990s Pakistani intelligence has quietly run training camps in the hills above Abbottabad for Islamist militants fighting in Indian-occupied Kashmir. The camps’ current status is unclear.

Abbottabad is also close to the Swat Valley, where Pakistani soldiers conducted a major anti-Taliban operation in 2009. Swat-based militants could be behind Friday’s attack, a senior security source said.

But the rocket attack also led to speculation about a possible link to Bin Laden. The missiles were fired from a position near a mosque just a half-mile from Bin Laden’s compound, said Mr. Umarzai, the division commissioner.

Pakistan’s military has struggled to explain how the world’s most wanted man lived for months, perhaps years, in the shadow of its most prestigious academy.

A government commission set up to investigate the circumstances around the American raid is to present its findings by the end of this month.

shiv wrote:

johneeG wrote:

I dont know what motivates the Amirkhan thinking. Let me imagine myself in Amirkhan shoes and try to understand their motivations.

johneeG that is top notch piskology

US state dept history archives on 71 BD war

+1 Nixon's and Kissinger's words bear out this psych profile. Link was previously posted on this forum.

shiv wrote:

johneeG wrote:

I dont know what motivates the Amirkhan thinking. Let me imagine myself in Amirkhan shoes and try to understand their motivations.

johneeG that is top notch piskology

Saar,
I hope that is not a sarcastic comment.

About trade with pakis: I am against it, principally and practically. I dont believe trade or cultural or sport ties will cultivate any pro-India faction.

I think the root cause of the problem is ideology. PA is the muscle force and mullahs are the 'intellectual force' that perpetuates the ideology.

@shiv Just want to point out re your analysis that, though Indians think of pakis "stopping" their violence against India in exchange for being bailed out, in reality there is only "suspend" and not " stop". The pakis know this very well but I don't think the Indians really do. "stop" can come only after pakis resolve to put an end to the supremacist indoctrination that is the foundation of what is actually a very successful state by their lights. But that means the end of pakistan as we know it.

@ Ashok Gottipati we can see from the Taseer killing that there is indeed a paki people's democratic revolution taking place to overthrow the feudals. But this seems to be the natural marxist type revolution with TSPA being the people's army. The "party"'s goal here is not betterment of masses' lives but the conquest and enslavement of India.

I find myself disagreeing with the model of a "failing" TSP. We think this because we are used to thinking of settled and productive civilizations. Pak model is that of the Arab brigands who strategically use their location and the cohering force of a totalitarian ideology, shielded by nukes, to live on tribute and pillage. In India they found a third way--an enslaved population whose labor is equivalent to saudi oil. They "lost" that in 47 and want to get it back. In the arab model you can camp in harsh conditions for a long time while fighting for their deferred reward, which is a valuable character trait from Islam.

If Indians are oblivious to the paki game and play an entirely different game then history tells us it will result in a second Fall of India.

KLNMurthy wrote:@shiv Just want to point out re your analysis that, though Indians think of pakis "stopping" their violence against India in exchange for being bailed out, in reality there is only "suspend" and not " stop". The pakis know this very well but I don't think the Indians really do. "stop" can come only after pakis resolve to put an end to the supremacist indoctrination that is the foundation of what is actually a very successful state by their lights. But that means the end of pakistan as we know it.

@ Ashok Gottipati we can see from the Taseer killing that there is indeed a paki people's democratic revolution taking place to overthrow the feudals. But this seems to be the natural marxist type revolution with TSPA being the people's army. The "party"'s goal here is not betterment of masses' lives but the conquest and enslavement of India.

I find myself disagreeing with the model of a "failing" TSP. We think this because we are used to thinking of settled and productive civilizations. Pak model is that of the Arab brigands who strategically use their location and the cohering force of a totalitarian ideology, shielded by nukes, to live on tribute and pillage. In India they found a third way--an enslaved population whose labor is equivalent to saudi oil. They "lost" that in 47 and want to get it back. In the arab model you can camp in harsh conditions for a long time while fighting for their deferred reward, which is a valuable character trait from Islam.

If Indians are oblivious to the paki game and play an entirely different game then history tells us it will result in a second Fall of India.

Murthy garu
First to overthrow India they must get themselves a proper internal pecking order in the process a bloody civil war will happen with lot of dead Pakis(it will be class,sect,regional war for scarce resources).We can play both sides in our devious ways at the end of the day there must be blood split.

Taseer's Killing is an a anomaly a Jehadi who solved a problem of bumping a blasphemer,which we misinterpreted.What Iam talking about is an entirely different ball game

The Pakistanis and Arab brigandes cannot do much in the modern India in the face of an united political India

shiv ji,

weakening PA is not necessarily about cutting funding from PRC and US. there needs to be a weakening of PA's image and and perception in Paki society. it won't be enough to cut funding from external sources. I would say that that is a peripheral issue. the public's support and admiration for PA needs to be undermined. once this is achieved, all the external funding is useless. there really is no alternative for India other than to highlight the utter feudal mentality and greed of PA landowning elites. only a mass based "social justice"/"rights" movement can really chip away at the foundations of TSPA.

and the resurgence like that will be the first step and the first precedent for Pakis to eventually break out of Islamic mold. I would look out for signs of this: unrest and disturbances which sight TSPA behavior and greed as main grievances....even a small incident somewhere which is immediately crushed by TSPA is good. it means that there are real undercurrents which are making TSPA extremely paranoid.

shiv wrote: Welcome to BRF. This is a difficult question to answer as a prediction. I can only go by past precedents.

In the past, whenever Pakistan has sought to change the borders by force, India has resisted and has had no political opposition to war with Pakistan under those circumstances. However Indians have opposed war with Pakistan after "mere" terrorist acts - such as after the parliament attack.

The conditionality for cooperating with Pakistan would be no war to change border. No terror. If trade with India makes Pakistan better the argument I have heard from people hated on BRF such as Mani Shankar Aiyer and Chidu is that there will be a constituency in Pakistan that opposes war with India.

But as long as the Paki military remains powerful, all this cannot happen. First the Paki army has to be defanged, Forget nukes. Nukes change the game and no one is going to use them easily. We should not scare ourselves silly with Pak nukes, serious as they are.

Thanks for the welcome, been a lurker for 10 years, but finally remembered i did have a non-free email ID .

I know the Porkistan Army is the biggest hurdle to achieving peace, but wouldn't engaging in trade slow the eventual descent of the Paki nation into fragmentation and irrelevance. Even if US funding for the paki army is stopped, it still will leave us with a nation full of people who hate our guts. I am sure the terrorism problem plaguing us will still be there (even if it is less). The only permanent solution I can see is the breaking up of Porkistan into smaller ethnic nations, who have no claim to anything greater and no greater interest in Kashmir than lets say Qatar or UAE. In fact I would imagine they would be even less interested, when faced with the prospect of having us as their only economic hope for a better future in the long run (i.e. if they do have leaders who are intelligent enough or at least greedy enough to want a better economy). A future nation of Pakjab will not only have to face the economic reality of such a scenario, but also would have problems accessing the sea, as I would imagine a future Sindh and Pakjab would be at each other's throats (as they are now more or less). If that is the case, the ones who are causing problems for us now would be at our mercy (if they want to live a better life). If trading with them would in any way slow this prospect, I am against it. Of course, I do realize that for any of this to happen the paki army must be eliminated first, but it would be wise of us to consider the possibility that by trading with them we might allow Porkistan Army to exist a little bit longer too (considering how its a parasite living off a beggar).

devesh wrote:shiv ji,

weakening PA is not necessarily about cutting funding from PRC and US. there needs to be a weakening of PA's image and and perception in Paki society. it won't be enough to cut funding from external sources. I would say that that is a peripheral issue. the public's support and admiration for PA needs to be undermined. once this is achieved, all the external funding is useless. there really is no alternative for India other than to highlight the utter feudal mentality and greed of PA landowning elites. only a mass based "social justice"/"rights" movement can really chip away at the foundations of TSPA.

and the resurgence like that will be the first step and the first precedent for Pakis to eventually break out of Islamic mold. I would look out for signs of this: unrest and disturbances which sight TSPA behavior and greed as main grievances....even a small incident somewhere which is immediately crushed by TSPA is good. it means that there are real undercurrents which are making TSPA extremely paranoid.

Precisely my point funding is not the problem for PA.What need to be destroyed is the Public perception of PA and the most important thing the internal PA discipline and the PA afsar-PA abdul relation.All this must be done in the absence of an external bodeyman for the PA

Arun Menon wrote:Thanks for the welcome, been a a lurker for 10 years, but finally remembered i did have a non-free email ID .

Welcome to BR - formally. I remember those days...

johneeG, well written saar.

I think the surest and shortest way of discrediting PA in the eyes of aam pakis(of all varieties) is by subjecting them to defeat(visible and tangible i.e. land) at the hands of IA.

As long as the pakis feel that PA can match IA, PA has a lifeline. As long as the pakis view PA to be able to hold its own before IA, they will tolerate all the shenanigans of PA.

Stopping the external aid to PA will hurt PA's ability to match IA and needle India. Thus, it indirectly paves the way for discrediting of PA before the pakis.

However, I do not think ending PA is enough to end pakistaniyat. Pakistaniyat will persist in some other form. Perhaps, it will go dormant until it finds a suitable outlet. To weed it out completely and permanently, the ideology has to be rooted out. Of course, the first step is to take out the pillars of ideology. PA is, presently, one of the pillars of the ideology. It is the sword arm of the ideology, while mullahs/madrasas are the brain. Both these pillars need to be handled. But, that is not enough. Paki people need to be sanitized from islamism through de-addiction program that will reward and punish accordingly. Such program can be instituted only if the paki people are under one's control. To take control of Paki people(and their lands), one needs to first tackle PA.

Rahul M wrote:johneeG, well written saar.

Thanks a lot, saar.

SSridhar wrote:Kakul Military Academy attacked with RPGs

Police say unknown assailants fired rocket propelled grenades at the military academy near Osama bin Laden's compound in the northwest Pakistani city of Abbottabad.

Senior local police officer Abdul Karim says the attack early Friday morning damaged the wall of the academy but did not cause any casualties.

Disappointing to note that it did not end up like the GHQ or Mehran or the Punjab Police academy attacks. What a shame, more pious ! Hope this was a dry run and Allah's blessings will be showered upon the more pious soon.

I think the TSPA attacked themsleves for some rohna/dhona before visiting US interlocutors.

We are victims onlee type of nautanki/kabuki.
Doesn't make sense otherwise.

I think the surest and shortest way of discrediting PA in the eyes of aam pakis(of all varieties) is by subjecting them to defeat(visible and tangible i.e. land) at the hands of IA.

Johnee garu two very good examples for this 1971,1999 and Abbottabad raid the PA is all fine at the end of the day

As long as the pakis feel that PA can match IA, PA has a lifeline. As long as the pakis view PA to be able to hold its own before IA, they will tolerate all the shenanigans of PA.

They will tolerate the PA as long as they think it has the biggest stick in Pakistan to thrash them with

Stopping the external aid to PA will hurt PA's ability to match IA and needle India. Thus, it indirectly paves the way for discrediting of PA before the pakis.

Correct,but will this prevent PA not carrying the biggest stick in Pakistan as long as PA will feed on Pakistani economy and the PA common fauji have a good life the PA will be there

However, I do not think ending PA is enough to end pakistaniyat. Pakistaniyat will persist in some other form. Perhaps, it will go dormant until it finds a suitable outlet. To weed it out completely and permanently, the ideology has to be rooted out. Of course, the first step is to take out the pillars of ideology. PA is, presently, one of the pillars of the ideology. It is the sword arm of the ideology, while mullahs/madrasas are the brain. Both these pillars need to be handled. But, that is not enough. Paki people need to be sanitized from islamism through de-addiction program that will reward and punish accordingly. Such program can be instituted only if the paki people are under one's control. To take control of Paki people(and their lands), one needs to first tackle PA.

The best outlet for Pakistaniat is Civil war

First step is to let Pakjabi taste the lordship of Pushtun tribes. Growing Indian strtategic strength and Pushtun promotion in Poaqjab will finish PA as credible force. Weak minded Poakajbi will try to accomodate the old foe/ master but it will be a slippery slope.

johneeG wrote: What is it? China gobbled Tibet? The bloody chinese are expanding. And they are commies... Not good. But, we need to cultivate them against the Soviets. Lets find some way out.

China attacked India?! The Mao wants to gobble parts of India too? No way! We cant allow that. Help India take on these commies.

<snip>

What the hell? Indians want to start a war on east-pakistan? Why are these Indians suddenly behaving so uppity? Well, warn them that no non-sense will be tolerated. BTW, cant the pakis just teach a lesson to the Indians, if they start a war(after all, we have armed them sufficiently)? Oh, so east-pakistan is vulnerable, ok. Fine, warn India to behave and the pakis also need to quickly deal with this issue(of bengalis) without stretching it.

(...will continue later)

Good analysis johneeG garu!

I put two comparable clips (from amriki Pov - even though the approach and end-results are different) so your amriki mind sees the parallels

A while ago we (Ramanaji and I for sure - dont remember where) had a discussion on the characteristics of vassal states. India fails that test as it stands now, thus the need for splitting India.

ramana wrote:I think the TSPA attacked themsleves for some rohna/dhona before visiting US interlocutors. We are victims onlee type of nautanki/kabuki. Doesn't make sense otherwise.

You may have something here. Certainly a lot of smoke and mirrors. Especially when all those rockets hit nothing of value. Either the tellibunnies were using hand-me-down duds or PA in mufti decided to act out their part of the gang that couldn't shoot straight.

TSP-TSPA relationship is organic, meaning that wanting to separate them is a questionable proposition.

Analogy from classics is kabamdha and his arms. K was a monster who had huge arms, mouth and stomach but everything else was atrophied. Rama and Lakshmana were caught by the arms. They each cut off one arm with their swords and ended K's life.

We can say that Kabamdha's body evolved into a grotesque monstrosity as a reflection of his dominant grasping and predatory nature. If Rama and Lakshmana decided to nurture K's other faculties and body parts, they would have had a Kabamdha with improved auxiliary capabilities and some ability to present himself as not quite such a scary monster. But that will have no effect on his essential Kabamdha nature. He is definitely not going to cut off or ptherwise cripple his own arms, that makes no sense.

We thought about cutting off the TSP Kabamdha's TSPA arms and realized we can't do it. So now we want to use trade to grow his other body parts, believing that the improved proportion and symmetry will change his nature. We can think of examples where an improved body image supposedly leads to an improved temperament. But on the other hand, the world is also full of superstitious people who practice quack medicine based on this principle.

Interesting analogy. Could be very apt that growing the other parts by feeding them stuff will only nurture the grasping arms.

ramana wrote:

SSridhar wrote:Kakul Military Academy attacked with RPGs
Disappointing to note that it did not end up like the GHQ or Mehran or the Punjab Police academy attacks. What a shame, more pious ! Hope this was a dry run and Allah's blessings will be showered upon the more pious soon.

I think the TSPA attacked themsleves for some rohna/dhona before visiting US interlocutors.
We are victims onlee type of nautanki/kabuki.
Doesn't make sense otherwise.

My take is slightly different. That building is a symbol of both jihadi and paki army humiliation. As long as it exist it will remind them of their collective rape by unkil sam. So, the building will be taken down in very near future..you can count on it 100%. Puki army will need many more jihadis for its afghan strategy to play fully and taking that building down will be seen as morale booster.

KLNMurthy wrote:@shiv Just want to point out re your analysis that, though Indians think of pakis "stopping" their violence against India in exchange for being bailed out, in reality there is only "suspend" and not " stop". The pakis know this very well but I don't think the Indians really do. "stop" can come only after pakis resolve to put an end to the supremacist indoctrination that is the foundation of what is actually a very successful state by their lights. But that means the end of pakistan as we know it.

Actually its worse than that. Not only is it "suspend" but it is also letting off all the guilty - like Huffeez Saeed and Kiyani go scot free in a tradition that started in 1971. I don't think Indians "don't know" that. It is too obvious. If you and I can think of that it would be pretty presumptuous to imagine that no one else can see the obvious. But I suspect India has very few other options. For example, even if teams of covert ops people were sent out to assassinate Kiyani or butcher Saeed and they succeeded we would only hear that they were dead and that someone else is leader. We would never have the satisfaction of knowing that we did it. I suspect that there must be at least 200 influential Paki army and jihadi types who would need to be eliminated before its starts making a difference to Paki strategy such as there is Killing a token one or two will mean nothing other than an ego boost like killing Bin Laden.

It is easy for a state to protect its most valued people against threats. The US was never able to take out Castro - not for want of trying. Jihadis have never taken out the Indian targets they want to take out although they have hit soft targets with impunity. VIPs and militaries are "hard targets" which is why terrorists choose "soft" targets. Soft tagrets are more numerous and more difficult to secure 100%

In any case trade dealings with Pakistan if any will have to be started with eyes wide open knowing fully well that 99% of Pakistanis hate India and would try to harm India if the got a chance. The trade would not be out of love , but an effort to gain influence and force Pakistanis off dependence on their course.

US aid or Chinese aid to Pakistan was never out of love. It was purely pragmatic and selfish - to gain influence. No American or Chinese is seething with anger that Pakis don't love them or might do them harm. They are dealing with Pakis with eyes wide open. India needs to exert influence on Pakistan, make 80 million Pakis dependent on India for trade and and displace the US and China. The US and China have both failed and have nowhere to go. Neither does Pakistan. India has had nowhere to go all these decades, and there may be an opportunity here for India now to displace US influence, with disadvantages and cautions as stated.

devesh wrote:shiv ji,

weakening PA is not necessarily about cutting funding from PRC and US. there needs to be a weakening of PA's image and and perception in Paki society. it won't be enough to cut funding from external sources. I would say that that is a peripheral issue. the public's support and admiration for PA needs to be undermined. once this is achieved, all the external funding is useless. there really is no alternative for India other than to highlight the utter feudal mentality and greed of PA landowning elites. only a mass based "social justice"/"rights" movement can really chip away at the foundations of TSPA.

Devesh - only part agreement here. Cutting funding and arms is hardly a peripheral issue. It must not be taken lightly because of the lethal arms that the army has access to.

You see - as far as the Paki army and Pakis are concerned they are "easily handling" India with just 10 armed men holding the entire country to ransom. And if India tried to react the Pakis have thousands of tanks, aircraft etc to punish India. This is part of their self image and morale and it has been continuously built up by the US. I am in vehement and violent disagreement that we should ignore the military strength. It must be eroded. Eroding everything else after that gets that much more pleasant.

I think what is being forgotten while mooting the idea that the Pakis army's strength is "peripheral" is the fact that if worst comes to worst, India will have to fight war with Pakis. In that war our soldiers, our last hope, will be dying because we thought that these arms are "peripheral" and that we could somehow get away by mere chankianism and not ensuring that we do all we can to erode Pakistan's armed strength without war/before war. The US must be forced to stop funding - and that might just work if the US gets punished enough by Pakistan. As long as we allow the jihads to punish the US and befriend Pakis who are friendly towards us - this might work. The US did that to India, after all.

The external funding is key to the morale and unity of the Pakistani army. The army is a fighting force. If their fairy godmother the USA keeps them well armed and well equipped their morale and loyalty are higher than it would be without that. Once the army find tanks rusting and engines not starting - enemies will start looking like they need to be befriended.

Arun Menon wrote:
Thanks for the welcome, been a lurker for 10 years, but finally remembered i did have a non-free email ID .

I know the Porkistan Army is the biggest hurdle to achieving peace, but wouldn't engaging in trade slow the eventual descent of the Paki nation into fragmentation and irrelevance. Even if US funding for the paki army is stopped, it still will leave us with a nation full of people who hate our guts. I am sure the terrorism problem plaguing us will still be there (even if it is less). The only permanent solution I can see is the breaking up of Porkistan into smaller ethnic nations, who have no claim to anything greater and no greater interest in Kashmir than lets say Qatar or UAE. In fact I would imagine they would be even less interested, when faced with the prospect of having us as their only economic hope for a better future in the long run (i.e. if they do have leaders who are intelligent enough or at least greedy enough to want a better economy). A future nation of Pakjab will not only have to face the economic reality of such a scenario, but also would have problems accessing the sea, as I would imagine a future Sindh and Pakjab would be at each other's throats (as they are now more or less). If that is the case, the ones who are causing problems for us now would be at our mercy (if they want to live a better life). If trading with them would in any way slow this prospect, I am against it. Of course, I do realize that for any of this to happen the paki army must be eliminated first, but it would be wise of us to consider the possibility that by trading with them we might allow Porkistan Army to exist a little bit longer too (considering how its a parasite living off a beggar).

The US and China do not have the power or interest to break Pakistan. US senators are irritating hot air, like Digvijay Singh. We cannot depend on the US for anything other than screwing things up for India. Whatever we have to do we have to do ourselves - even if it means begging and/or forcing the US to get the hell out, or at the very least, cooperation.

There are two different perspectives from which you can view this issue

1. Pakistan is a coherent state where the government is under control of most of its area and people, with an economy that is temporarily affected by other people's wars. A little aid and sympathy will soon make Pakistan roar ahead as a very powerful Islamic state and a beacon of leadership in the world. Pakistanis as a people are emotionally attached to Islam and Muslims and solving the Kashmir issue will make Pakistanis drop all animosity towards India and work for world peace.

2. The Pakistan civilian government is subservient to the army. The army is not in full control of its own territory. It is fighting a civil war in Baluchistan and NWFP even as it tries to maintain covert war by proxies against India. The military swallows most of the budget and most aid in teh last 10 years has been directed at the military. Pakistan has little to export and seeks concessions for export of low tech goods. It population is growing faster than its education system and economy can cope. Industries such as there are are crippled by power shortages. The country is living on bailouts and only 2% of people pay income tax.

Three questions:
Which of these two perspectives do you see Pakistan from?

If you were a Baluchi which perspective would be more credible to you? Which perspective do you think other nations should take so that it could benefit you personally .

If you were a wealthy Army jernail in Pakistan which perspective would you like others to see so it benefits you personally?

I am not asking you to make a black and white case one way or other. I am asking that you be honest and not make any assumptions without stating them to be assumptions. I am not leading you anywhere but you may trip yourself up if you make assumptions or bluff yourself.

johneeG wrote: Saar,
I hope that is not a sarcastic comment.

About trade with pakis: I am against it, principally and practically. I dont believe trade or cultural or sport ties will cultivate any pro-India faction.

I think the root cause of the problem is ideology. PA is the muscle force and mullahs are the 'intellectual force' that perpetuates the ideology.

No sarcasm but I am not sure why everyone thinks "trade" is about love and friendship. Trade could be about influence and domination too. Pakis have been resisting because they know that.

Pakistan Military Academy, Pakistan’s equivalent of West Point.

One thing that is beyond my comprehension is why these journos are always comparing the naPakistan military academy to WEST POINT. Is there any comparison? A rogue army that has been using borrowed money, begged money and stolen money from Baluchistan, Sindh, Pakhtunwa and others for its upkeep is equivalent to the WEST POINT which gets money from the taxes of the US citizens!!!

It is a huge error as there is no equivalence!!

^^^
I have no problems if it is used correctly like so: Pakistan Military Academy, Pakistan's equivalent of West Point was 200 meters away from where Osama Bin Laden was hiding for 6 years, but Pakistanis deny all knowledge.

Anujan wrote:^^^
I have no problems if it is used correctly like so: Pakistan Military Academy, Pakistan's equivalent of West Point was 200 meters away from where Osama Bin Laden was hiding for 6 years, but Pakistanis deny all knowledge.

Also, " Pakistan Military Academy, Pakistan's equivalent of West Point was 200 meters away from where Osama Bin Laden was hiding for 6 years, but Pakistanis deny all knowledge", and the American government, pumping funds and arms to the Pakistan army denied all knowledge of the latter's connection with jihadis for decades. It appears that they teach denial in West Point as well as in PMA, Abbotabad, so they are equivalent.

Made for each other. This love bird relationship needs to be undermined before India can take control of the destiny of the subcontinent.

SBajwa wrote:

Pakistan Military Academy, Pakistan’s equivalent of West Point.

One thing that is beyond my comprehension is why these journos are always comparing the naPakistan military academy to WEST POINT. Is there any comparison? A rogue army that has been using borrowed money, begged money and stolen money from Baluchistan, Sindh, Pakhtunwa and others for its upkeep is equivalent to the WEST POINT which gets money from the taxes of the US citizens!!!

It is a huge error as there is no equivalence!!

Well, the only similarity is that West Point is the premier school in the US used to train junior US army officers and PMA Kakul is the premier school in Pakistan used to train junior Paki army officers. No comparison in curriculum, quality of training, nature of graduating candidates etc.

Satya_anveshi, Are you mistaking the Kakul Academy for the OBL safe house? Its the latter a symbol of impotence and incompetence of the TSPA and the jihadis in and out of uniform.