Discussion wrote:The Qur'an mentions the angels Harut and Marut who had taught the faithful AD tricks to vanquish enemies, but warns that that was only for the sake of self-defence and not to be pursued for their own sake. The names Harut and Marut are definitely of Zoroastrian origin.
A lot of it goes back to Kabbalah and Zoroastrianism. In some schools of Islam, when pone is introduced to the kalmah, 5 points are laid out that need to be accepted - one of these being something like - "the existence of angels in the cosmos - the physical Sun has a corresponding angel associated with it", etc.
They believe in hierarchies of beings in the Unseen - so its not all just "paishacha" only. Of course even revelation comes from the Archangels - Gabriel in Muhammad's case.
Whether Daivi or Asuriya... AD is definitely there. I am not clear yet on all the differences...but the difference is in the form of an undercurrent - externally there is a superficial correspondence between both sides at all levels. Even on the non-Abrahamic 'Dharmic' side - Tibetan Budhism has its own AD - with many Asura names.
Also, I think AD should also include methods of mass mobilization or hypnotism - fundamental parts of some types of priestcraft. A lot of AD is based on a gradient on a scale of Agreement. Generating mass appeal or "faith" is part of that. It is also directly related to political outcomes.
Continuing - in Islam (not just Sufi variety but also mainstream), meeting with AD figures like Khidr / Khizr are considered almost crucial steps on the path. Some propaganda artists among the Islamics sometimes try to show that Buddha was an incarnation (yes they have that concept) of Khidr/Khizr (probably in order to poach on Buddhist spirituality in the West, and also the significant attraction of Buddhism in Islamic countries).
The question was raised: "Will advent of ISIS, what is is prospect of Islamic AD survival? Isn't Wahabism antithesis to AD?"
It depends. Wahabism is like an Arya Samaj to Islamic AD - could actually enhance focus by rubbishing the bhautik *symbols*...OR it could have a negative impact. I find that many highly focused entrants to Sufism have been through a "Wahabi phase". So these days, one important point that Sufi Sheikhs emphasize is that the mureed should learn to be comfortable with the fact that the Unseen has a variety of beings who can and do communicate with humans. Not be solely focused on an abstract unitary "Allah". Yet, many of these Sufi masters "connive" with Wahabism by saying "it is part of what is prophesied". This is because Wahabism should be seen as a "phase".
But, "Arya samaj is definitely antithesis (to large extent) to Deshi AD."
Well, if Arya Samaj serves as a "portal" to Mimamsa and Yoga, then it can be seen in a different light. By itself it is "antithesis" - but in concert with thesis it can yield a positive spinoff.
On a tangential note - Western churches with a more obvious infusion of their gnostic traditions, such as Mormonism, are also big on AD. The church has clairvoyants and others who can tell you all about your past and presage the future, like astrologers. They also assign members into one of the "12 tribes of Israel" - a sort of social division based on basic nature. But in the Protestant Christian West, most AD streams have been stereotyped as diabolical.
In the Islamic world today, most Islamism is a political concert between Sufism and Wahabism, with the former being the senior partner. They are not totally at war, as is often portrayed. Both, their concert and their friction, are seen as necessary by Islamic thinkers. It is a well-known hadith that Muhammad prophesied at the End Of Times,the rulers of Najd (Saudi heartland) will lead a movement exactly like Wahabism today. It sets off a sort of psychological dynamic by an implosion at the core.
It seems that the Christian West understands this internal dynamic. Imam Ghazzali had brokered the formal marriage by fusing these two innate strands of Islam into a Jarasandha-like powerful being. The West is trying to selectively upset the balance and tear these apart and put them at cross purposes with one another. [Ref. blogpost
"Owais and Owaisi: Two halves of Jarasandha"]
Naqshbandi and other Sufis understand this Western game and are always establishing supportive channels with Wahhabis. Some act as the glue to hold it together. In Pakistan, see the role of "Islamist Sufis" like Ghamidi - who shift their goalposts depending on the situation.
Many stories of Islamic savants using AD powers to influence forces of nature, etc. E.g., case of the famous mathematician and astronomer (cum Islamic scholar) Jamshid Kashani, who meditated and then lead communal prayers and thereby supposedly ended a drought, causing massive downpours that cleaned the city's water system and thereby ended the cause for a water-borne epidemic.
Several ahadith (especially current among Sufi tariqats) about Muhammad himself influencing weather patterns and other events. A significant chunk of such ahadith is about his connection with weather, lightning, rain, dawn, dusk, etc.
As regards trikala-jnana, it is a standard part of Islamic spirituality - not just Sufism. Called "firasat" in Naqshbandi tariqah.
Several authentic ahadith seem related to AD aspects. There is actually a separate, distinct type of salat (namaz) for almost every 20 minute period of the day/night. The 5 basic types of namaz are only for laymen. For actual sadhakas, there are umpteen. Several savants who lived in forests, hills, etc often practiced the different types of namazes around the clock.
Question: "where does dharmik AD come in here? What are the fundamentals of Abrahmic AD? In dharma, it is basically karma-siddhanta and methods of tampering it (either communally or in person-specific manner)."
I feel that some of these were stolen from Indic tantra systems (and then attributed to Muhammad via some hidden line of transmission - as is usual). The reason is that some of the most copious literature on these AD type round-the-clock namazes were written by Islamic converted savants in places like present-day Bangladesh. And we know that Bengal has been a center of tantra for long.
The tantra of AD often involves alignment of one's psychological sense of time with chronological and cosmic time. So these practices are pointers.
Now if one reads the works of even modern Islamist philosophers like Said Nursi (who was a Turkish "shatavadhani") - one can see a lot of material exactly like karma-siddhanta. A lot of his corpus - Rusale Nur - talks about how to change destiny, though he himself felt that the demolition of the Ottoman Empire was karmically *necessary* - and he explained it to the Russians who once imprisoned him.
As regards personal targeting - Islam definitely has a lot of this about spells, drishti (buri nazar), etc - about protecting oneself from it, but also attacking (though this part is not public).
Regards fundamentals of Abrahamic AD (which is fused with older Greek 'pagan' AD) - they differentiate "black", "grey" and "white" magic. The black is related to influencing others materially. White is about influencing solely one's own spiritual path by removing spiritual obstacles by wisely investing one's own material karma. The "grey" tries to make a combination of both. In terms of sexual practices related to these 3 types, the differentiation is based on types of sexual celibacy or practice.
My hunch is that a lot of the karma-siddhanta of the Abrahamics goes back to the "Khaetvodatha" concept in Avestan Gathas - and how one's personal life trajectory puts one in contact with an environment at the intersection of the human, animal, plant and mineral kingdoms - and by modulating one's habits and enjoyment/abstinence from these in combination with one's Daena (deen) and its access to the Yazatas (gods) one can effect certain changes.
