The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 20 Feb 2013 03:35

harbans wrote:So Krishna, God is eccentric or exception?

Krishna, all-encompassing God, is the thread that runs through every situation, whether the rule, eccentricity and exception. sutre maNi-gaNA iva.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 20 Feb 2013 03:45

The "version you stated," Harbans ji? Are you sure that this "version" is the absolute, unadulterated truth? Or is it just the village folks' way of reconciling a sticky point in the story for themselves? Don't you want to absolutely verify the truth of this version before you present it here? If you don't, isn't that Adharma? Is this what the original Mahabharata text states, for instance?

And you have the 100% unadulterated proof that Mahabharatha and the events mentioned happened exactly as per the book that you have been taught, right eh? And it ok even if a version has God helping his friend is deceit..lets all go untruth is the way forward, deceit is the way to forward our agenda, Islamic, Xtian, Hindu, Hindutvaadi..

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 20 Feb 2013 03:50

harbans wrote:
No, your question is. Krishna in BG if you've read it is God himself. He favors those who are close to him. The laws of nature are his creation according to the MB/ BG. Everything is his. So what time he blows his conch to help his friend is his prerogative.

Interesting.

So in your personal interpretation of the BG:

1. "God" is separate from creation, because creation itself is "God's" possession, and is hence a distinct entity to do whatever He wants with. (this negates "Ekam Advitiyam Brahma")
2. "God" has prerogatives that human beings do not share, because human beings are ultimately separate and distinct from "God" (this negates "Aham Brahma Asmi" from Brihadaranyaka Upanishad of Yajur-Veda.)
3. "God" can ordain a code of conduct based on "Truth" for human beings to follow, but ignore it Himself as He pleases (this negates "Prajnanam Brahma" from Aitareya Upanishad of Rig Veda).

I think it is you who need to do some reading before you talk of Dharma (or accuse others of Adharma.)

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 20 Feb 2013 03:51

Krishna, all-encompassing God, is the thread that runs through every situation, whether the rule, eccentricity and exception. sutre maNi-gaNA iva.

So what is the principle then of your Bharatiya which does not believe in Truth? If every eccentricity, exception, rule ends in Krishna so does Mohammed. Does that justify his acts of deceit, untruth as a rule? Do you realize how idiotic these kind of statements are Carl ji? Sorry to state that. But this is like acting wise and cutting one's own foot, nose and XYZ. Don't quote some exception and then proceed to say exceptions are rules. Then WTF are you wanting some Bharatiya for? Ritual? Aarti? Status?

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 20 Feb 2013 04:00

harbans wrote:
The "version you stated," Harbans ji? Are you sure that this "version" is the absolute, unadulterated truth? Or is it just the village folks' way of reconciling a sticky point in the story for themselves? Don't you want to absolutely verify the truth of this version before you present it here? If you don't, isn't that Adharma? Is this what the original Mahabharata text states, for instance?
And you have the 100% unadulterated proof that Mahabharatha and the events mentioned happened exactly as per the book that you have been taught, right eh? And it ok even if a version has God helping his friend is deceit..lets all go untruth is the way forward, deceit is the way to forward our agenda, Islamic, Xtian, Hindu, Hindutvaadi..

Well you were the one insisting on truth as the absolute ideal. That automatically brings up the question I was asking. No point throwing my question back at me - it's your ideal. What proof do we have for the truth of the statement that truth is the absolute ideal? Is it really true that the Mahabharata happened in the first place? Is it true that we need to worry about the welfare of India in the first place? If you want absolute truth as an ideal, my friend, then these, and many other such questions should be really bothering you.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 20 Feb 2013 04:03

1. "God" is separate from creation, because creation itself is "God's" possession, and is hence a distinct entity to do whatever He wants with. (this negates "Ekam Advitiyam Brahma")
2. "God" has prerogatives that human beings do not share, because human beings are ultimately separate and distinct from "God" (this negates "Aham Brahma Asmi" from Brihadaranyaka Upanishad of Yajur-Veda.)
3. "God" can ordain a code of conduct based on "Truth" for human beings to follow, but ignore it Himself as He pleases (this negates "Prajnanam Brahma" from Aitareya Upanishad of Rig Veda).

Rudra Ji, i could rubbish each and every point you made here.

By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.

Yes the Adharma of using Deceit and Untruth as primary is Adharma.

Yes an all powerful God can do what he pleases..what is your problem? Jealous of God for some vague ecxeption? 100000 times Truth is mentioned as sacrosanct does not strike you, yet one example that may or may not have deceit to protect someone God considers his personal friend irks you so much that you make that a rule to further your agenda? What sort of logic is that? Rubbish again!

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 20 Feb 2013 04:08

Well you were the one insisting on truth as the absolute ideal.

It is. Truth is God. I am sure you can find a million verses in Dharmic texts that say that. Oh ok, maybe not million a few less. May be 5000, may be 300. I don't know. Adharmic of me. So how many verses do say lying, cheating and untruth is the way forward Sudarshan ji? Actrually i did not mention Truth as absolute ideal. I mentioned it in the context of this thread as a fundamental reflection in the way the Civilization reflects to it's people. But yes, as Truth does equate to God, it is an ultimate ideal to reach to.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 20 Feb 2013 04:13

harbans wrote:So what is the principle then of your Bharatiya which does not believe in Truth? If every eccentricity, exception, rule ends in Krishna so does Mohammed. Does that justify his acts of deceit, untruth as a rule? Do you realize how idiotic these kind of statements are Carl ji? Sorry to state that. But this is like acting wise and cutting one's own foot, nose and XYZ. Don't quote some exception and then proceed to say exceptions are rules. Then WTF are you wanting some Bharatiya for? Ritual? Aarti? Status?

Actually the shoe is on the other foot. The moral high ground is not the be all and end all of Dharma. Consider this illustration from the Bhagavatam: What you are saying is exactly what was suggested by the Yama-dootas (ambassadors of Death) in their debate with the Vishnu-dootas (angels of God). They were debating what "Dharma" is, and the Yama-dootas said "veda-praNihitO dharmaH" - "Dharma is what the Veda (taken as a piece of literature) says it is." But in response, the Vishnu-dootas say:

धर्मं तु साक्षाद् भगवद् प्रणीतम्
न वै विदुर्ऋषयो नापि देवाः
न सिद्ध-मुख्या असुरा मनुष्याः
कुतो नु विद्याधर-चारनादयः ।

"Real Dharma is enacted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead in a direct relationship with the individuals in present time ('saakshaat'). Although fully situated in the mode of goodness, even the great rishis who occupy the topmost planets cannot ascertain the real religious principles, nor can the demigods or the leaders of Siddhaloka, to say nothing of the asuras, ordinary human beings, Vidyādharas and Cāranas."

So unless the Devas, Rishis, Vidyadharas, Asuras and Caranas are all idiots, and unless you openly agree that you are a worshiper of the god of Death rather than Vishnu, you must admit that there is something wrong with your cut'n'dried prescriptive definition of Dharmic action as you are arguing here. A prescriptive, legalistic definition of Dharma is a non-survival meme, which will win you and your civilization the blessings of the God of Death.

I am not disagreeing with your suggestion that there is a type of Adharmic rascal mindset that loves to abuse the exception completely out of context - but that does not mean that those who undertake a course of action according to context that may not be pretty are also rascals. Please note that no one here is saying that using deceit as a "primary" course is OK.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 20 Feb 2013 04:20

harbans wrote:
1. "God" is separate from creation, because creation itself is "God's" possession, and is hence a distinct entity to do whatever He wants with. (this negates "Ekam Advitiyam Brahma")
2. "God" has prerogatives that human beings do not share, because human beings are ultimately separate and distinct from "God" (this negates "Aham Brahma Asmi" from Brihadaranyaka Upanishad of Yajur-Veda.)
3. "God" can ordain a code of conduct based on "Truth" for human beings to follow, but ignore it Himself as He pleases (this negates "Prajnanam Brahma" from Aitareya Upanishad of Rig Veda).
Rudra Ji, i could rubbish each and every point you made here.

Please go ahead. My points are based completely on what you wrote.

No, your question is. Krishna in BG if you've read it is God himself. He favors those who are close to him.

If "God" favours some who are "close to Him" that means that "God" is ultimately a separate entity from "those who are close to Him". This contradicts "Aham brahmamsi."

The laws of nature are his creation according to the MB/ BG. Everything is his.

If "everything is His" (i.e. all of creation belongs to "God") that means that creation is a separate entity from "God"; it must be so, in order to be possessed by "God". This contradicts "Ekam adivityam brahma."

So what time he blows his conch to help his friend is his prerogative.

If "what time He blows His conch is his prerogative" even if the prerogative serves to suppress the Truth, that means "God" can suppress the Truth Dharmically, while telling humans that it is Adharmic to suppress the Truth. This contradicts "Prajnanam brahma."

I have pointed out how all these conclusions are refuted, not by some vague passages in the Upanishads but by very important, salient principles known as Mahavakyas. Either your interpretation can be true or the Mahavakyas can be true. Not both. There are no exceptions here.

By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.

Try again. This only establishes that Krishna is transcendent as well as immanent... that "God" both includes and extends beyond the currently manifest material universe. If anything, this statement only highlights how delusional your conclusions are.

Yes an all powerful God can do what he pleases..what is your problem? Jealous of God for some vague ecxeption? 100000 times Truth is mentioned as sacrosanct does not strike you, yet one example that may or may not have deceit to protect someone God considers his personal friend irks you so much that you make that a rule to further your agenda? What sort of logic is that? Rubbish again!

Sorry. The example is there for a reason. You cannot ignore it because it is inconvenient to your point of view. It is irrelevant that 100000 times Truth is mentioned as sacrosanct... Dharma is not based on statistical principles. And, I don't think I'm the one who is getting "irked" here.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 20 Feb 2013 04:27

Please note that no one here is saying that using deceit as a "primary" course is OK.

Don't ask me that..ask Rudra ji:"Exceptions are what make the rule." That is wt the Ashwathama incident.

Yet:

The moral high ground is not the be all and end all of Dharma.

Then why blame people low on your standards of 'morality', taking over Desh? Again why blame them then for taking a higher moral ground? You've already disclaimed it. Then the mango people will adjudge for themselves. You have already now said morality is not the be all and end all. SO again, what do you want..ritual, Sanskritized people devoid of morality? Ravana was a great guy..Vedic scholar to boot. Why the F do people chastise him on character? Why not arti on the character? After all morality is nothing. Neither is Truth. And it is OK to deceive. These are all you have ended defending here. Your Sansrit quotes come to nothing Carl ji if that is what you end defending. Sorry about that. But there is no way out of this.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 20 Feb 2013 04:29

1.Yes an all powerful God can do what he pleases...

2.Truth is God

You are contradicting yourself Harbans ji, if 2 is true, 1 is false, vice versa. God cannot be untruthful, so he is limited by Dharmic action bound by truth or he can do what he pleases no matter what even if that means complete disregard for dharma or truth.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 20 Feb 2013 04:34

Either your interpretation can be true or the Mahavakyas can be true. Not both. There are no exceptions here.

Why do you care for the Truth?

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 20 Feb 2013 04:38

harbans wrote:
Either your interpretation can be true or the Mahavakyas can be true. Not both. There are no exceptions here.
Why do you care for the Truth?

Because I think most adult human beings in our society, and even in societies less civilized than ours, have a clearer grasp of the concept of "Truth" than your posts have demonstrated.

The way you use "Truth" is the same way Mohammed used "Peace". You want to give it an absolute meaning, one-size-fits-all, applicable in each and every context. Whatever situation is inconvenient to that meaning, you want people to ignore as an "exception." Whenever people point out that you cannot simply ignore "exceptions" as a matter of convenience.. you accuse them of being "Adharmic."

Wah.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 20 Feb 2013 04:45

You are contradicting yourself Harbans ji, if 2 is true, 1 is false, vice versa. God cannot be untruthful, so he is limited by Dharmic action bound by truth or he can do what he pleases no matter what even if that means complete disregard for dharma or truth.

I am a little surprised how eager you are to prove God untruthful, full of deceit, and untruth and deceit the cornerstone of your Bharatiya. If that is what you have descended too, may the project fail. And the above means nothing. Ever heard of Pralay? Universes destruct and get sucked into some blackholes all the time. The Earth itself has faced complete destruction some 6 times in it's life at least. God is the Truth, so your limitations don't apply. And Why the F cannot he be partial to those he pleases? Is heaven, hell, moksha not themselves some kind of reward/ punishment system themselves? But then it's against the scope of this thread.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Feb 2013 04:46

venug wrote:
1.Yes an all powerful God can do what he pleases...

2.Truth is God

Truth depends on Falsehood , a matter of duality, How can One Beyond Duality be a prisoner of duality ?
Truth is not God but In God , so is falsehood and in Between.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 20 Feb 2013 04:51

The way you use "Truth" is the same way Mohammed used "Peace".

Rubbish! The way you are propagating exceptions are the rule is exactly what the Islamists do. Stop backtracking now. The rule for you is deceit. Not the usage of Truth. The rule is the exception that you think is deceit and untruth in the Ashwathama incident. Then how come in your rhetoric Rudra ji does the exception become the rule?

And yes while i try and make a desperate attempt to deviate from the Islamist core in terms of principles and values, what do Hindutvaadi's like you do? Heck..cry foul, cry loud and batter truth and proclaim Untruth and deceit as valid principles in the pathways to attain power. BS and Rubbish of the HIGHEST order!

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 20 Feb 2013 04:55

harbans ji, you're cracking me up. Seriously, I'm not poking fun or anything. We all agree that as a general rule we do respect noble virtuous actions that assume the best intentions in all. But we're just saying that there are certain circumstances that demand other kinds of action. And sometimes people and societies must go through such exceptional circumstances. That's all there is to it.

The Indian idea is not that 'God' must be loved or obeyed because He/She/It is 'God', but rather the reverse: that He/She/It can get to be called 'God' because He/She/It is so lovable. In the background of all action is a love for God, and a responsibility for the well-being of His creation taken as a whole. Hope that settles it.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 20 Feb 2013 05:04

No You are arguing all this while with the people who say the exception to the Rule is the Rule. And waving the Ashwathama incident for effect.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 20 Feb 2013 05:12

harbans, I'm sure that when you're less irate you will find that "exceptions make the rule" is not the same as "exceptions are the rule".

Anyway, points taken, and I'll bow out here.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Feb 2013 07:32

harbans ji,

a) Reference to birds and bactreria means "When explaining the concepts of Truth and Compassion don't take any knowledge of it for us as granted and do some fundamental analysis.

b) The "tongue in cheek" point about "Truth is higher than Dharma" simply means that the way you use Truth is different from how it is understood in Dharma.

Carl wrote:The full guideline for speaking truths according to Upanishadic Dharma is - सत्यं वद प्रियं वद हितं वद । -
(a) Speak the truth,
(b) Speak it intimately (i.e., at the precise emotional level that can best be handled by the other),
(c) Speak it for the benefit of all.

You are ignoring the last two guidelines completely.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Feb 2013 07:45

harbans wrote:I intend to be harsh here. There is no Dharma without Truth. Truth is sacrosanct.

What is the purpose of human existence? Everything is subservient to that purpose.

When there is a proper Dharmic frame of reference, one can wisely make the choice between the many shades of grey that are inevitable in the world.

MK Gandhi may have missed the broader Dharmic "forest" in his quest for the "tree" of non-violence.

As mentioned earlier, the human mind, as a part of its evolutionary quest, feels an inherent urge for a better and better understanding of the universe. That is from where Truth gets its appeal.

But one should not lose sight of the ultimate goal, or get hung up and miss the big picture.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Feb 2013 07:57

harbans wrote:The eagerness to embrace the exception to the rule to suit agenda and fit one's temporal POV shows.

Don't call it an "exception".

It is simply a proper application of a holistic Dharmic frame of reference.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Feb 2013 08:05

Rudradev ji,
The example of how Muhammad uses the word Peace is very apt.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Feb 2013 08:25

harbans wrote:Then why blame people low on your standards of 'morality', taking over Desh?

What is a nation-state? From a Dharmic POV, it is a collaborative project whose goal is to facilitate the evolutionary quest of its people.

For that the nation state has to create and protect all the conditions conducive to this purpose (including material conditions, infrastructure, institutions, public safety, knowledge transmission systems etc).

Obviously the conduct of the rulers will be judged by this yardstick.

And the same overall perspective is used to decide the proper course of action in the kind of situation that you are calling "an exception".

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 20 Feb 2013 08:28

harbans wrote:Then how come in your rhetoric Rudra ji does the exception become the rule?

Harbans ji, you are ascribing a statement to me that I never made, probably because it is easier for you to argue against statements that were never made, than to refute actual statements.

I did not say "the exception becomes the rule", I said "exceptions make the rule." This is not my rhetoric. It is a common expression.

Let me explain "exceptions make the rule" with a simple example.

1. Let us imagine a land where the only clothes available are yellow coloured clothes. The King likes all his people to wear yellow coloured clothes. Now, does the King need to make a rule that "all people must only wear yellow coloured clothes all the time?"

Of course, he does not. The only colour of available clothes is yellow. There are no exceptions; hence, a rule that all people must only wear yellow coloured clothes is both meaningless and unnecessary.

Conclusion: In the absence of exceptions, a rule itself is meaningless and unnecessary.

2. Some time passes in this land. One day, many different coloured clothes become available. The King still wants his people to wear only yellow coloured clothes. But now, to enforce his preference, he must make a rule that requires all people to wear only yellow coloured clothes all the time. Clothes of other colours are the exceptions that make this rule necessary.

Conclusion: The presence of exceptions is what makes a rule meaningful and necessary.

3. Let us go a step further. After some more time has passed, a day comes when there are no yellow coloured clothes available in the market. This is a NEW exception. What can the King do? In order to keep society functioning smoothly (prevent people from running around naked), he must amend the rule by adding to it. He must say, for example, "all people must wear only yellow coloured clothes, but if no yellow coloured clothes are available, then orange coloured clothes are acceptable for the time being."

Conclusion: The emergence of new exceptions is what makes any necessary and meaningful rule EVOLVE. Evolution is necessary for a rule to remain relevant and useful.

A key point of difference between Sanatan Dharma and Abrahamic Traditions is that the "rules" mandated under Sanatan Dharma factor in the emergence of new exceptions. It is a fact of all human experience that new experience will keep on and on arising as the lives of individuals, societies and nations become more and more complex. Sanatan Dharma is aware of this fact and allows for the evolution of rules, by providing for context-sensitive morality.

That is why we cannot be satisfied with a Rule Book given by some alleged God to his alleged Prophet 1500 or 2000 years ago, as the sole and final arbiter of all morality. It is precisely to illustrate this need for an evolving code of conduct, that we have stories in the MB like that of Ashvatthama's "Death"; or in fact, why the BG itself begins with Partha asking the poignant question, why is it Dharmic for me to fight and kill my blood relatives? These exceptions are not provided to be simply dismissed and ignored.

They are provided to remind us that rules must evolve. For instance, our understanding of "Truth" must evolve, and be sensitive to context; this is what Yudhishtir learned when his chariot wheels sank to the ground after he doubted the Dharmic nature of Krishna's counsel regarding Drona. From this story we learn that Dharma is to be lived as a dynamic and evolving process, not to be prescribed from the pages of some hoary old book mired in an irrelevant context of the static past.

Therefore, it is exceptions that make a rule necessary and meaningful at its point of origin; and new exceptions that enable a rule to evolve, remaining relevant and useful as time goes on.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Feb 2013 09:01

Carl wrote:
harbans wrote:Sudarshan ji, there was no untruth in Yudhistra's Ashwathama statement. He was told Drona has to drop weapons to be eliminated. The way offered to Yudhistra was saying Ashwathama is dead (the elephant Ashwathama was). He refused to say the untruth. So he said IIRC..'Ashwathama hatho narova kunjarowa'. The truth. Only when the Hatho word was used conch shells blew and in the din that was not heard by Drona. The exception to the rule was clear in it's marginality. To exrapolate that to imply that Untruth can be used as modus operandi is Adharma.
Not true. Firstly, he deliberately uttered the reference to the elephant softly with every intention that the other misses hearing it. But for his own confused conscience he uttered it nevertheless. Moreover, it is stated that Dharmaraja's hesitation to follow the explicit guidance of Krishna resulted in him having to pass through Hell on his way to Heaven. This hesitation was born of an inability to distinguish between righteous action in Present Time context, and a frozen morality that sought to avoid the "dangers" of immorality... and it lead to a secondary emotion like false guilt, which then attracts to oneself exactly what is feared - a Hell-bound trajectory. (If Yudhisthira had disregarded Krishna's advice altogether, then the war may have had a different outcome, and he would have again felt guilt for not having done so.) Therefore it is stated - धर्मं तु साक्षाद् भदवद् प्रणीतम् । - "Dharma is that which is given as guidance by the Lord directly in present time (saakshaat)." Thus, dharma is saakshaat, not frozen in time.

Today's Sudharma has this nice one from Vishnugupta Chanakya (who advises citizens to meditate on a Name of Vishnu with every morsel of their meal) about values, actions and context --

असन्तुष्टा द्विजा नष्टाः सन्तुष्टाश्च महीभूतः ।
सलज्जला गणिका नष्टा निर्लज्जाश्च कुलाङ्गना ॥

"A discontented Brahmin, a contented king,
A coy courtesan, and shameless women from reputed families,
They all destroy themselves."

QED

Nice.

So Yudhishtira was punished not for uttering a half-truth, but for his false guilt arising from his inability to discern his proper Dharma.

Subtle are the ways of Dharma.

Perhaps this is an good topic for a post on your blog.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 20 Feb 2013 10:09

Pranav wrote:So Yudhishtira was punished not for uttering a half-truth, but for his false guilt arising from his inability to discern his proper Dharma.

Yup. Besides, as an immediate effect, his chariot, which the legend says always moves a few inches off the ground, comes down due to this Adharma. "Outwardly" this external falldown in the here and now was due to the Adharma of telling a half-lie. But in fact it was because he did not follow the word of Krishna, who is "dharmO dharma-viduttamaH", and this internal consequence played out in the hereafter.

So the laws of life do serve an outward and an inward consequence of every action, and the two may sometimes be contrary!

Pranav wrote:Perhaps this is an good topic for a post on your blog.

Actually there are so many angles to this fascinating episode, many of which are beyond my ken. So I'd rather not try that just yet!

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 20 Feb 2013 10:48

I do not understand how Truth and Dharm are sought to be torn apart.

Only flavour of truth that has been given up is the 'Absolute Mere baap ki bapoti truth'. The kind which belongs to the same feather as the 'Salvation by EJs' / 'Peace by Jihadis' / 'Rule of Law by West'.

It rejecting this human twist on shaaswat truth is Hindutva then I would rather be a Hindutva vaadi.

To me at least this understanding of relativeness is the crux to a peaceful and fruitful co-existence without annhilation of such immiscibles as Hindu Dharm and Islam/Christianity.

Understanding of this relativeness allows me to stop insisting on a total purge of what I do not like.

This understanding provides the rationale for setting something aside to prepare for avoidance of a repetition of history.

harbans ji while you have been accusing me of coming to the debate with a closed mind. But that was the wrong time to accuse me.

Now is the right time. I am closing my mind to further debate. Thanks for all the help.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Feb 2013 11:33

I am very confused as to what Harbans-ji wants.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Feb 2013 11:41

Sanku ji

We alread have "Religion of Love", "Religion of Peace". Now some efforts are being made to create a "Religion of Truth" and then make it India's official religion!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Feb 2013 13:36

RajeshA wrote:Sanku ji

We alread have "Religion of Love", "Religion of Peace". Now some efforts are being made to create a "Religion of Truth" and then make it India's official religion!

To be honest, that does seem very much like it to me too.

Also this new religion of truth seems to be like the religion of love and peace we already have, just in new name, with as much adherence to truth that the previous religions have to love and peace.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Feb 2013 14:54

General Confusion over 'Hinduism'

I found an old article on the Internet, and I think it still has some relevance.

Published on Oct 04, 2006
By B Shantanu
In search of a “Hindu” identity

In all honesty, I should have written on this topic months, maybe even years ago – Some times I think this should have been the first post on my blog – which I call “Hindu Dharma”.

I have been asked on numerous occasions, what is it to be a “Hindu”? And yet, I desisted writing anything on this topic until now. Why? Not because I had nothing to say – but because I was looking for a good, coherent answer and a pithy explanation; a summary that I could point people to…so that others can read and understand for themselves the core of “Hinduism” and our belief system, our values.

I often wonder what is the best way to define and describe my identity as a “Hindu”? Our scriptures are silent on the issue. Our belief system, values and what we can loosely label as “religion” is not codified. The “religion” that we follow makes little or no demands on us, and growing up in a pre-dominantly Hindu environment in India, I never paused to think about it.

But when I came across this article by Suresh Balaraman, it struck a chord.

Ten sentences about “Hinduism”
Suresh started his quest when he realised that he could not say even “10 sentences about Hinduism” – especially to a non-Hindu.

Suresh lives in the US and is, in his own words, one of “the 6% of Indians who have had college education.” He also has additional degrees which makes the case even more poignant.

If, as he says, “We (i.e. well-educated, articulate people) can't say something about our religion then there is something totally wrong with us, the Hindus.”

I believe at least part of the responsibility lies with our religious scholars, leaders and preachers. But each one of us is responsible too. How many of us have made an attempt to learn and understand more about Hinduism – or more accurately “Sanatan Dharma”? So the blame is widely shared.

Suresh suggests a few reasons behind our inability to articulate the core values of Hinduism:

Hinduism does not place any demands on us. “It has allowed us too much leeway to pursue our spiritual goals. This, some refer to as the uniqueness and greatness of our religion. However, this has also caused Hindus to remain ignorant of the basics of their religion. There is no sense of commonality of belief amongst the Hindus. We don’t share a lot…There is no sense of brotherhood among Hindus as it exists among other religionists.”

At best, we have a hazy idea about our religion. “Our reluctance to speak about our religion may be due to the fact that we really aren't clear cut in our understanding of our religion. Most of us didn't study the religion in a methodical way in India. We really didn't have to. We just absorbed the religious life around us in India. Like pickles we were soaked in it…we learnt most of our religious knowledge passively.

We practiced our religion in whatever way our parents told us. Our parents probably got their education passively from their parents. Most of our religious education was caste based, sectarian, and provincial. It wasn't a comprehensive one. Most of us learnt some rites and rituals, some prayers, some mantras, and felt that would suit our purpose. Probably it did.
No stranger asked us what we believed in. No one expressed any curiosity in knowing our religion…there was no need for us to know it well enough to be able to explain to others.”

There are differences among us in our emphasis and practice of religion. “There is a smouldering sense of animosity among Hindus because each one thinks that his practice of the religion is better than anyone else’s. This is the curse of India or shall I say only Hindus. Every Indian thinks "I am not inferior to anyone, but how dare the other fellow thinks that he is equal to me (don't care whether he belongs to my religion/hometown). I will not tolerate that". We dislike or even hate the religious practices of other Hindus. No wonder the Moguls and the British had the least difficulty in conquering us.
We unfairly claim that the British divided and ruled over us. Actually they exploited the lack of fellowship among Hindus to their advantage.”

A “Hindu”? What’s that?
Why is it important to know all this anyway?
Those of us who either live and work abroad or in the course of their work, frequently come in contact with people from other countries and religions often get stumped when faced with questions such as the ones Suresh faced, “do the Hindus worship Idols by the million? Do they worship cows? Do they still practice caste system? and so on..”

We are unable to articulate a response – in many cases, we simply don’t know what to say. That may have been good enough in a world where no one really “cared” about India and Indians. But in a rapidly globalizing world and one in which religion is acquiring increasing prominence, this will simply not be good enough.

Our inability or unwillingness to answer these questions marks as, at best, as ignorant of our own culture and beliefs and at worst, unconcerned about what is probably the most salient and defining part of our identity as an Indian.

I also have a selfish motive behind this. As Suresh says, “If we could all share the same thoughts about Hinduism, it would build some fellowship among us.” And I think that alone is a very good reason for us to try and understand Hinduism in terms that we can easily explain to others.

So how can we capture the essential elements, the essence of Hinduism in a few bullet points? Here is what I suggest:

Hinduism is an ancient religion and has evolved over the course of centuries. It started off c. 3000 B.C. It has been almost continuously modified over the long course of its history.. Although the religious practices have evolved and continue to change, the philosophy remains in the Vedas

We believe that God exists in two “forms”: (i) in a formless, omnipresent, and omnipotent form called “Brahman” which (symbolized in the form of "O M") and (ii) in the form of various icons and images that help us better imagine his attributes compared to an abstract form

Regardless of the form we worship, we are aware that all the different forms eventually lead to the same God and each of us is free to choose his or her own path to worship and salvation. The forms that are most commonly worshipped include the Trinity of (Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva). The creative energy is frequently personified as “Devi” and is an essential representation of feminine power and as the source of all life

Hindus believe in the theory of “karma” and in the cycle of life and death (Note that we believe in the “cycle” of birth and re-birth as opposed to just one instance of re-incarnation or re-birth)

The essence of “karma” is that actions have consequences that cannot be escaped. The belief in “karma” (e.g. that our predicament is the result of our past actions) gives us strength to accept things we can't change[5]. We also believe that we can shape our future by the deeds that we do and the spirit in which we do them

Hindus believe that lasting peace & happiness (salvation or “Moksha”) can only be achieved by moving beyond this cycle of life and death.

We believe that the core of our religious belief and philosophy is found in the Vedas and Upanishads. The “Bhagvad Gita” (literally “The Song of God”) explains some of these values in a simple and easy to understand form. Our epics (Ramayana , Mahabaratha and the Puranas) illustrate the core of our values in the form of stories

We believe in the power of prayer, sacred hymns and pious thoughts. We usually have a place in the house for a private altar (“Devghar”) which is a representation of the “Abode of God”. On special occasions (weddings, birth, marriage) and festivals, we visit temples for special prayers
These, in my humble opinion, are some of our core beliefs and values. There may be more and you may disagree with some of these – but we have to make a beginning somewhere – and this is a modest attempt towards that end.

And why is all this important?
As I wrote on my blog, “Hindu-ism” or “Sanatan Dharma” is the oldest surviving major religion in the world today…and the only one that gives you the choice, the freedom and the luxury of beliefs that is un-afforded in any other extant set of beliefs/
It is a religion and culture that articulated and defined the concepts of tolerance and mutual respect even as most of mankind was still deep in the hinterlands of cultural and spiritual enlightenment.

One can be justifiably proud of it…but before pride must come awareness and at least a basic understanding…otherwise the word “Hindu” simply becomes a label.

So let us work together towards understanding it and spreading awareness about it. As Suresh says, “Let us give it the vigour it needs. Let us spread the word not only to our children, but to whoever (else) wants to know about it.”

Above all, spread the word amongst fellow Hindus - for unless we understand and believe ourselves, how can we convince others?

P.S. As I wrote above, this is a modest attempt and will remain incomplete until I get feedback, comments and suggestions for improving the list of bullet points. Please email me your thoughts and ideas. In the end, a well-articulated, 10-point bullet list is probably more powerful than a dozen essays.

There is a lot of confusion out there. Here on BRF we of course have many gurus who are immersed in Sanatan Dharma (popularly also known as 'Hinduism') and as such nothing can really shake them, but out there there are many who just don't know.

Their only exposure is to rituals their parents and grandparents did as a passive viewer whom not much was explained, a superficial knowledge of our mythology, and a whole lot of bunkum that the Europeans have stuffed in this Trojan Horse called 'Hinduism'.

It is exactly for these millions of Hindus who are confused about their identity and religion, that I feel that the work done by sudarshan ji is very useful when he proposed the "Axioms of Sanatan Dharma".

Moreover it is important that we disabuse the millions of Hindus out there who think their religion is "Hinduism". Just because we are Hindus, it doesn't mean our religion would be called "Hinduism". "Hinduism" is the prejudiced, biased work done by Europeans in analyzing Hindus. 'Hindu Dharma' on the other hand does not have any religious content. That is all outsourced to each Hindu himself to source it from his specific sampradaya, parampara or dera he belongs to. "Hindu Dharma" is all about being Bharatiya in mind and resisting the Abrahamic proselytization drive, staying true to the beliefs and philosophies of the land.

Often Hindus know their identity is 'Hindu' and everybody keeps telling them that "Hinduism" is their religion as they are "Hindus", so when they try to understand what that means they end up in garbage dump called "Hinduism", a European construct, and end up learning about castes, and cows, and snakes and Brahmin oppression. And then they think there must be something more and they end up reading some English literature on it written either by European racists or by Macaulayites and "eminent historians". No wonder there is going to be disenchantment. And often much of it starts with Aryans on horses coming down the mountains mowing down the poor Harappans and institutionalizing Vedic oppression and the caste system!

What all these Hindus want to learn is about "Sanatan Dharma" so that they understand some concepts and are able to respond to stupid queries from foreigners, Indian Abrahamics and deracinate Hindus, and do not need to feel ashamed about being Hindu.

So if some foreigner asks "Do you have castes in Hinduism?", the Hindu should be able to answer, "What is Hinduism? There is no such religion! I am a Hindu and my religion is Sanatan Dharma! And no, we don't have castes in Sanatan Dharma! We have Varnas!"

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Feb 2013 15:18

General Confusion over 'Hinduism'

Published on Aug 23, 2012
By Rajesh Patel
Hindu Identity :To Be or Not To be ?

Some Hindus these days think we should stop using the Hindu label as an identity because its origins are foreign. Regretfully even some Hindu gurus and swamis have joined the fray by also expressing their reservations about its feasibility for the Hindu community worldwide. However, on closer reflection any idea of ditching the term ‘Hindu’ is as impractical as it is unrealistic.

Using the term Sanatan or Vedic or any other label instead will not only obscure and confuse Hindu identity even more but will also lead to greater proliferation of identarian politics where each sect within the Hindu fold seeks its own separate status.

While it is true that the term “Hindu” may have been foreign in origin (or to some theories it could very well originate from India itself ) and at a time it may have been used as a derogatory label by foreigners it is nevertheless simply baseless to claim that the Hindu people feel this way about the word “Hindu” when looking back at history

In actual fact, the Vijaynagar Empire was proud to call itself “Hindu” in its long struggle to maintain and preserve our culture. Shivaji and his Maratha followers were also proud to call themselves “Hindus”. Indeed, countless children of Hinduism were proud to fight and protect their culture in the true heroic and Dharmic traditions taught by Krishna in the Gita.

For your benefit, we quote some epigraphic evidence and its implication as cited from “Hindus and Hinduism: Manipulation of Meanings” by Sita Ram Goel:

‘The Somalpuram Grant of the Vijayanagara king Virupaksa is dated Saka samvat 1389 (AD 1467). It describes the king (“in the glowing fire of whose valour, the Turushkas were scorched up”) as “elevated by the titles such as hinduraya-suratrana”. In the Hempe inscription of Krishnadevaraya, dated Saka samvat 1430 (AD 1508), the hinduraya-suratrana is described as the “destroyer of rogue tigers.” The hint is more than clear: rogue tigers are the Muslim invaders.
The same description of him is found in his Udayambakam Grant dated Saka samvat 1450 (AD 1528), two years before he died.

In an inscription found at the holy city of Gaya in Bihar , the Vijayanagara king Acyutadevaraya is eulogised as “hinduraya-suratrana, the firm establisher of the Hindu kingdom.” His Unamanjeri Plate issued in Saka samvat 1462 (AD 1540) calls him not only hinduraya-suratrana but also induvamsa-sikhamani (the jewel in the crown of the lunar dynasty). The same applause is reserved for Sadasivaraya in his Kanuma Grant dated Saka samvat 1478 (AD 1556).’

‘Thus by the middle of the fourteenth century, the word “Hindu” had dropped the derogatory associations imposed on it by the Iranians and the Islamic invaders, and acquired a lot of lustre in the eyes of our countrymen. Native heroes such as Maharana Kumbhakarna and Krishnadevraya, who defeated the Islamic onslaught, were hailed as the Hindu heroes in subsequent centuries.

Padmanabha uses the word “Hindu” for glorification of the Chauhana heroes of Jalor in his epic poem, Kanhadade-prabandha, which he composed in AD 1455. It will not be long before Maharana Pratapa Simha of Mewar becomes renowned as hindu-kula-kamala-divakara, that is, the Sun which brings bloom to the lotus that is the Hindu nation.

Chhatrapati Shivaji, who turned back the tide of Islamic invasion and inaugurated the war of liberation from Islamic imperialism, will be hailed all over Bharatavarsa as the saviour of Hindu Dharma and the protector of its significant symbols – gau-brahmana, sikha-sutra, devamurti-devalaya, , the same with Maharaja Chhatrasal.’

‘And the word “Hindu” stood sanctified when Sanatana Dharma became known as Hindu Dharma. Numerous saint-poets arose in all parts of Bharatavarsa who sang hymns in praise of Hindu Dharma, and who reminded their countrymen that they were inheritors of a great and vast spiritual vision.’

Hindu may have had foreign origins as an ethno-geographic term. Yet in its present context and usage it refers not just to people from India who follow an ancient tradition which alone has survived while others have become extinct as the dodo, but it also stretches all the way across south east Asia, and even further into the West with millions of followers with Western born gurus like Satguru Subramanian Swamy( Hinduism today) or Vedic Scholars like Vamadev Shastri and many more..

The label Hindu has evolved like Hinduism/Sanatan Dharma and its diverse Dharmic paths and should be welcomed as the unifying Identity for its global followers regardless if they are Indian or not.

As I have often mentioned earlier "Hindu is non-negotiable". But we see one clear thing. The word "Hindu" was adopted by the Bharatiya kings, e.g. the Vijaynagara Empire, Maratha Empire, etc. when they were fighting against the Muslim Invaders. It has a very special meaning - as The Resistance to Abrahamics. 'Hindu' became popular when Resistance became the need of the hour.

It is okay and welcome if at the popular level, people want to associate religion with it, but the 'Hindu Identity' is a political and cultural identity based on resistance to the Abrahamics. Veer Savarkar was correct in that assessment.

In the "educated" and deracinated circles, the distinction between 'Hindu Dharma' and 'Sanatan Dharma' needs to be made clear.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Feb 2013 15:27

Occasion: Hinduism Summit at the Hindu Temple of Greater Chicago: Forum for Hindu Awakening

Published on Apr 24th 2010
By Shri. Kalyan Vishwanathan

Slideshare

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Feb 2013 16:05

Cultural Marxism in Action => Don't Buy

Rethinking Hindu Identity
Author: Dwijendra Narayan Jha
Publication Date: Jan 15, 2009

Description
This book provides an antidote to the virulent version of Hindu communalism and cultural chauvinism and seeks to expose the hollowness of the xenophobic claims about Hindu religious identity. It identifies some of the stereotypes about Hinduism and shows them to be without any basis in historical evidence. Contrary to the belief popularized by the Hindu jingoists, it shows that Hinduism, far from being eternal and monolithic, is the youngest of religions and that its supposed tolerant nature is a myth. The book also challenges the `sacredness' of cow as a community identity of the Hindus and draws on a melange of evidence to demonstrate that the ritual killing of this animal was de rigueur much before the arrival in India of Muslims who are stereotyped as kine killers, that its flesh has been very much a part of the early Indian food regimen, and continues to remain so even today in some sections of Hindu society. The story of the cow through the millennia, the author argues, is full of inconsistencies, thus rendering its supposed "holiness" elusive, indeed as elusive as Hindu identity itself. Written in a riveting style, the essays in this book are an antidote to the Hindu religious fundamentalist mythomania, and will certainly be of value to those interested in the construction of Hinduism and the politics of Hindu identity in contemporary India.

About the Author
Dwijendra Narayan Jha was Professor of History at the University of Delhi till his retirement in 2005. He was National Lecturer in History in 1984-85 and the General President of the Indian History Congress in 2005-6. His research focuses on social, economic and cultural history of early India and his publications include Revenue System in Maurya and Post-Maurya Times (1967), Ancient India (1977,1998), Early Indian Economy and Society: Issue & Paradigms (1993), (ed.) Society and Ideology in India: Essays in Honour of Prof. R.S. Sharma (1995), (ed.)The Feudal Order (2001), Holy Cow: Beef in Indian Dietary Traditions (2001) reprinted as the Myth of the Holy Cow (2002) and Early India: A Concise History (2004)

Review: Against Hindu Identity
By Koenraad Elst

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This is the kind of propaganda one faces as a Hindu. To imagine that this traitor is allowed to preside over Indian History Congress and can be History Professor in the Delhi University!

For this reason, I suggest, let's not defend the indefensible: the Trojan Horse 'Hinduism'! The lacunae that are there in this term are then often used by slimeballs like DN Jha to beat Hindus and to confuse them. Let's be crystal clear about the terms and our claims.

In one go we can cleanse this whole pile of sh** by throwing out "Hinduism" and at the academic level (mind you not at the popular level) by emphasizing the political and cultural meaning of 'Hindu' rather than mixing it with religious claims.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Feb 2013 16:16

The Need for Hindu Identity
By Rajiv Malhotra

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Feb 2013 17:27

General Confusion over 'Hinduism'

Published on Jul 17, 2009
By Dr. Babu Suseelan
Hindu Identity Formation: Haindava Keralam

(Summary of speech at the KHNA conference held at Los Angeles from July 10-13)

The Changing Context

We are living in a postindustrial world, a new society characterized by different problems and needs than those in the past. The complexity of technological advancement has the potential to increase our alienation by decreasing connectedness between people and our community. The rapid development in information technology has created a strange paradox. While pursuing a vision of progress and development in the human condition, modern technology has led to increasing dehumanization and alienation. We are faced with terrorism, crime, violence, substance addiction, alcoholism, global warming and healthcare crisis. These threatening issues have become more intractable with the Cartesian-Newtonian reductionist paradigm. Modern disciplines studying the human phenomena have tended to reduce the psyche to a complex mechanical reflexes and interacting neurological forces. As a result our ancient wisdom has been reduced into knowledge and knowledge into information and information into data. And data is used to manipulate human beings.

In this context what is the responsibility of Hindus living in the post industrial society? In this ever changing information society virtual reality has become reality, transient-throw away values has become virtues. There is no place for Dharma, spirituality and human development. Spirituality is seen as a sign of primitive superstition, intellectual and emotional immaturity.

In this context, the only way Hindus can minimize the psycho-social problems in this ever changing society is to develop a comprehensive and systemic perspective based on our Sanathan Dharma. We, Hindus are living in a society that has changed from an industrial economy to a knowledge economy. Recent success in information technology has its roots in our sacred Vedas and Sanskrit and its cultural affection towards knowledge.

What is now required for Hindus is to establish a Hindu identity and realize their inherent strength and potential to grow in a knowledge economy. Hindu cultural forces have a chance to grow on their own and get organized to transform knowledge based societies.

HINDU IDENTITY FORMATION

Hinduism is unique. And Hindus have distinctive cultural roots, identity, belief system and values. A component of Hindu identity includes a sense of personal continuity and uniqueness from other people. To be successful, we need to carve out a potential identity based on our sacred Dharma. Hindus acquire a social identity based on their membership in various groups-familial, linguistic, regional, ethnic, and occupational and others. These identities, in addition to satisfying the need for affiliation help Hindus define themselves in the eyes of both others and themselves.

According to our Purusharathas, identity formation from birth through adulthood is very important for a successful living. A variety of changes that affect one’s work, status, or interpersonal relationships can bring a crisis that forces one to redefine oneself in terms of values, priorities, and chosen activities or lifestyle. In general, Hindus face predictable or unpredictable crisis in this country that can challenge their conception of themselves and result either in personal growth or stagnation.

We have seen Hindus in America identifying themselves as Tamils, Telugus, Nair, Ezhavas, and Guajarati, Marathas, Punjabis and Brahmins. Why can’t they identify themselves as Hindus? Compared to other ethnic immigrant groups, Hindus have significant history, culture and sacred tradition. Hindu culture and identity are interrelated. People who identify themselves as Hindus can negotiate life passages in this increasingly individualistic, complex and chaotic world.

Hindu identity is the subjective state of perceiving oneself as a Hindu and as relating to being Hindu. Hindu identity, by this definition does not depend on whether or not a person is regarded as a Hindu by others, or by an external set of religious, legal or sociological norms. Accordingly Hindu identity can be cultural in nature. Hindu identity can involve ties to the Hindu community. Hindu identity may be religious, secular and people who are atheists can have Hindu identity.

For countless American Hindus, Hindu identity is shaped by linguistic, and caste model as well as living as a minority group struggling to protect its heritage against assimilation. To preserve, practice and protect our sacred, eternal Hindu Dharma, we need to continue our Hindu identity. To establish Hindu identity, we need to practice our Hindu rituals and Samskaras. Yet the reality for many today is that they do not practice our rituals or insist on practicing our rituals with our children.

Economically and socially successful Hindus are part of this pluralistic society in which the primary factor determining religious identity is individual choice. We need a new, more helpful descriptive model that recognizes the vital role that personal decision play in Hindu-American identity construction.

First, Hindu identity is made up of choices. We pick, consciously, or otherwise, from a set of identity menu that offer us options for behaviors that we understand as Hindu because we see them as Hindu things to do or as done in Hindu way. At the cutting edge of cultural change, the menu expands increasingly listing behaviors that belonging to others. Increasingly, Hindus are selecting non-Hindu menu such as birth day party at a hotel, eating non-vegetarian food at the birth day party, burning candles instead of traditional lamp etc.

Second, identifying ourselves as Hindu does not necessarily say anything about how we express that identity. From a purely descriptive standpoint, it is essentially a choice of self-identifying that makes as Hindu, even when it is not clear how that identity expressed or conveyed.

Third, Hindu identity has become increasingly fluid. It is linked to personal choice. Life cycle changes, professional affiliation, caste identity and linguistic affiliation also affect our Hindu identity formation.

Fourth, most contemporary American Hindus are suspicious of our traditional experts and rarely consult Swanijis or pundits in choosing how to be a Hind. Many resist any pressure to affiliate with Hindu organizations or institutions. If and when few chose to affiliate, it generally is not because they feel duty bound but because doing so meets their needs.
Hindu identity implies on the one hand alignment, a shared belonging with members of other Hindus. Alignment may be based on a perception of similarity or a feeling of interdependence. Confusion often exists how the Hindu group should be defined and what their relation is to other Hindus whom they see as dissimilar from themselves in so many respects. At present, Hindus from different states of India, Hindus from the Caribbean, Hindus from Fiji, and Hindus from Pakistan seldom associate even though there is a common thread. A feeling of interdependence shall be invoked to have a common Hindu identity among all Hindus. The feeling of interdependence, of a common fate, represents the widest minimal basis, the common denominator of Hindu identity.

Hindus need to enhance Hindu identity, given the realities of today. Anyone who identifies as Hindu today only needs to go back three or four generation to find Hindu culture and traditions. There is an unbroken chain of Hindu living that goes back more than five thousand years. Hindus who are trapped in Islamic countries have lost to the Hindu community. Hindus without Hindu community and Hindu culture cannot last more than a couple of generations. Unless Hindu Diaspora returns to living Hindu way, the children of unobservant Hindus will get lost.

A family of unobservant Hindu will lose one or the other-either Hinduness, or the unobservance. We cannot have both. The importance of Hindu continuity is no secret, it’s obvious. Living-breathing Hindutva produces living-breathing Hindus. It is time for Hindus to do for our children what our grandparents did for us. We need to be a living example of what it means to live a vibrant Hindu life. It is time for Hindus to get self-organized on a larger scale with unity of purpose and strength. The current world scene requires Hindus to be assertive and proclaim as proud Hindus. Once Hindus are united, the cultural strength will emerge as a strong force in world affairs.

What is often ignored is the context in which Hindu identity was formed. That context is Resistance to the Abrahamic invaders and occupiers. Today because of Nehruvian-Secularism and Political Correctness, one is not allowed to say that openly. The Hindu Identity is singularly based on opposing Islam and Christianity in India, not because we have a problem having Muslims and Christians in our midst. No.

The opposition comes from the invasions and occupations of India and their overthrow of previously existing Dharmic rule in India - the plundering and ravaging of Bharat.
The opposition comes from continuing demographic expansion of Muslims which invariably leads to a known consequence - Pakistanization,
The opposition comes from continuing proselytization efforts of both Islam and Christianism which invariably lead to a known consequence - destruction of native cultures.
The opposition comes from the dominating influence of the Islamo-Christianist Platform in the guise of Nehruvian-Secularism in Indian politics. - suppression of cultural expression by Hindus
The opposition comes from illegitimate influence that foreigners exercise over the thinking and behavior of Muslims and Christians

It is good that from all the destruction caused on the Bharatiyas, we were able to save the 'Hindu Identity' as we grafted it over our religious beliefs. But it is time that this 'Hindu Identity' be recognized for what it is - Resistance and Opposition to foreign imperialist religious ideologies.

The Hindutva Movement should be renamed as the Hindu Freedom Struggle. It was never won. That we won is a myth sold to us as suckers.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Feb 2013 18:37

The Hindu World

If one starts foraging through history, one learns that there were many religions throughout the world - from Europe, to West Asia, to Africa, to Americas, to across Asia and Australia, and almost all are today dead.

They are dead because of the ruthless onslaught of Christianism and Islam.

There are some who are trying to hold out. Here we as Hindus offer a unique model. We are the civilization which survived.

Till now the word Hindu was reserved for Bharatiyas only. After all 'Hindu' is a geographical designation for Indians initially used by the invaders who were not willing to give in to the assault. But it became a proud identity meant as resistance to the Abrahamics' physical and ideological invasion in India. It was the name of our Resistance Movement.

So here is a proposition. Can we bring all "pagans" of the world, all who resist the Abrahamic push, into the 'Hindu Tent'?

Can all call themselves 'Hindu'?

Let's also not forget that we may have in some form or another also have seeded or influenced them. Bharatiya influence is observable in various peoples across the world, including in Hellenic, Nordic and Druid religions, but also as far away as the Mayas. That is indeed a historical basis and a separate matter.

But here I wish to consider the use of 'Hindu' by other pagan communities of the world! Can the native Indians of America, e.g. call themselves Hindu, should they choose to of course?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Feb 2013 18:49

The Hindu World

Report of the 4th International Conference Gathering of the Elders of Ancient Traditions and Cultures, 4-7 March 2012 [ECER]

Dr. Mohan Bhagwat, Sarsanghchalak of RSS, delivered the Keynote Address where he stressed the need to nourish the balance of nature. He praised the efforts and resolve of the Elders in preserving their traditions and cultures. He recalled the priceless treasures of Indian thought like ‘Live and Let Live’, ‘Unity in Diversity’, ‘World is one family’ & ‘Let us ennoble the world’ and remarked that these have extreme relevance today. Universal outlook is the hallmark of Indian thought and the happiness and well-being of everyone is always sought, he reminded. Dr. Bhagwat stated that it is only through integral view and not compartmentalized view that we can bring about the change in attitude. He also felt that it is our responsibility to show to the world that the age old traditions have solutions to modern problems. We have to become the instruments of change and for this we need to organize ourselves for the benefit of everything in this creation he concludedl

Haridwar, a holy city known for the Kumbh Mela where over 100 million devotees had gathered last year, saw a Kumbh with a difference this year. Over 400 delegates belonging to 50 traditions from all over the world assembled from 4-7 March 2012 for the 4th International Conference and Gathering of the Elders of Ancient Traditions and Cultures at Dev Sanskriti Vishwa Vidyalaya. There were Maoris from New Zealand, Mayans and Navajos from the Americas, European Pagans, Balinese Hindus, Romuva from Lithuania and many others. These delegates discussed the ways and means of preserving the priceless ancient traditions and cultures inherited from their ancestors and share their experiences.

Damai dance by Nepal group

Since its inception at Nagpur in 1994 the International Center for Cultural Studies (ICCS) has been active in reaching out to all the ancient traditions of the world, exploring the commonalities in them and bringing them together to foster the sense of oneness in humanity. It promotes the preservation of these traditions and cultures and engages in academic research. From 2003, it organizes an international gathering every three years which is now established as a platform for all such traditions to exhibit their heritage, find similarities existing in other parts of the world and resolve for efforts to sustain these traditions.

The first international conference was held at Mumbai in 2003 with the theme “Mitakuye Oyasin – We are all related”. It was attended by delegates from more than 30 countries. The second conference was in 2006 at Jaipur with the theme “Spirituality beyond Religions”, attended by delegates from more than 40 countries. The third conference was held in 2009 at Nagpur with the theme “Renaissance of the Ancient Traditions: Challenges and Solutions” where more than 357 delegates attended from 32 countries. The theme of this 4th Conference was ‘Nourishing the Balance in the Universe’. The event was jointly organized by International Center for Cultural Studies (ICCS), Dev Samskruti Vishwa Vidyalaya (DSVV) and co-sponsored by the Council of Elders Mayas, Xincas and Garifunas, European Congress of Ethnic Religions (ECER) and Children of Mother Earth. A total of 458 delegates from 33 countries including 178 from overseas participated in the conference.

Procession and Inaugural Session

The conference started with a colorful procession by all the delegates in their traditional attires accompanied with rhythmic dances to the tunes of trumpets and beating of drums. The procession went around the campus of Dev Samskriti Vishwa Vidyalaya (DSVV) and culminated at the spacious and modern Mrutunjaya Auditorium. Latvians with their baritone prayers, Maoris in colorful attire and dancing Damais from Karnali – Nepal were the attraction throughout the procession.

Maori group New Zealand in traditional attire

The inaugural session started with the welcome song by the students of DSVV. Prof. Dr Radhey Shyam Dwivedi, President ICCS, USA welcomed the delegates to the Conference. He mentioned that we are all a large family and this was a gathering of relatives. This was followed by prayers by 23 representative individuals and groups of various traditions like, Mayan, Maori, Druid, Navajo, Cham, Romuva, Ramava, Pagan, etc from different parts of the world. These prayers invoked the Universal Spirit but in a variety of ways and languages.

Latvian group Musical prayer

Swami Dayanand Saraswati founder of Arsha Vidya Gurukulam delivered the Keynote Address. He said that as ‘managing trustees’ of the indigenous traditions and colorful cultures we need to protect all that we have inherited from our ancestors. Every one of us should be able to contribute in these efforts and nourish our cultures and traditions. Dr. Pranav Pandya, Chancellor, DSVV thanked the organizers for providing his university a chance to host such a wonderful conference at its premises. He observed that it is our duty to preserve the precious diversity. A souvenir magazine was released at the hands of the dignitaries. ICCS representative and Vishwa Vibhag Samyojak Shri Saumitra Gokhale and Professor S. C. Bagri representing Indian Hospitality Congress also addressed the inaugural session. Shri Suresh Soni, Joint General Secretary, RSS, Dr.S D Mishra Vice Chancellor DSVV and Dr.Chinmay Pandya, Pro VC – DSVV were among those present on the dais along with various dignitaries.

Poojya Swami Dayanand Saraswati & Shraddheya Dr.Pranav Pandya releasing the souvenir

Daily Schedule

The typical daily schedule started with the demonstration of ceremonies and rituals of the different cultures. Several similarities like use of fire, water for their performance was quite evident. There were also many that were unique. The rituals performed by the delegates exhibited the harmony of cultures, traditions and customs of different groups. Worshipping Nature was the underlying principle of these cultures and traditions. Though in different ways, they all worshipped the five basic elements of Nature i.e. Earth, Air, Water, Fire and Sky. “Love Mother Earth” was the message that emanated from all these rituals and religious ceremonies.

Traditional ritual - Kirzygstan

After breakfast was a plenary session in which scholars from various traditions spoke on topics and issues relevant to all. This was followed by three parallel sessions that included paper presentations on various sub-themes by speakers from various traditions. Many papers generated a lot of interest and lively interaction as well. Just to quote some paper headings; ‘Lasting World Peace for Every human being’ – Nina Meyerhof, ‘Finding Balance in a Chaotic World’ – Rev Patrick McCollum , ‘Yoga’s Approach to Universal Balance’ – Rajen Narayanan etc.

From 6 to 6.15 p.m. there would be a nada yoga and meditation session with total silence and tranquility. On 6th March, four parallel workshops were conducted in which practical topics that needed more hands-on participation were included. Some topics were, ‘Elemental approach to Conflict resolution – theEastern Way’ by Deidre Combs, ‘Native Indian Story telling’ by S. D. Young Wolf.

The much awaited event used to be the colorful and spectacular evening cultural programs that were held from 8 to 10 p.m. These were put on by the delegates on the first and the third day. The students of DSVV provided an assortment of folk dances and shows on the second evening. These were most entertaining and the performers would always amaze the audience by their talent and skills. The pulsating activities of the day would come to a close with the recitation of the shanti mantra after which the delegates would silently retire to their quarters.

Valedictory function

The Valedictory function was held from 3.30 to 5 p.m. on the 7th of March. Dr. Pranav Pandya, Chancellor, DSVV and P. P. Sarsanghchalak of RSS Dr. Mohan Bhagwat, started the proceedings by the lighting of the lamp. Shri Shyam Parande, Zonal Coordinator of ICCS, Bharat welcomed the gathering and gave a brief account about the conference. This was followed by a geet – ‘Vishwa Hamara, Dharati Apani’, rendered by the students of DSVV that portrayed the vision of Late Pandit Shriram Sharma Acharya, the founder of Gayatri Pariwar.

Five dynamic and promising young elders namely Inra of Vietnam, Cholponai of Kyrgyzstan, Katrina Pihera of New Zealand, Ghulam Asgar Zaidi of DSVV, Haridwar and Lyla Johnston of USA spoke about their dreams, ideas, aspirations and expressed their feelings that they have experienced in the 4-day conference. Each of them confessed that the four days of interactions have been their finest experience in life and a great learning opportunity.

Awarding of Hon. Ph. D

Setting a new precedent, University of World Ancient Traditions and Cultural Heritage, USA (UWATCH) awarded Honorary Ph. D. degrees to five eminent personalities for their knowledge of the tradition, distinguished leadership and outstanding social service to their respective traditions. Dr. Pranav Pandya and Dr. Mohan Bhagwat conferred the degrees to the recipients. Brief introduction of the five recipients is as follows. The awardees were Kenneth Kennedy of New Zealand – a Kaumatua (Elder) of the Te Arawa tribe and an acknowledged expert in Maori Language and culture, Alejandro Cirilo Perez Oxlaj of Guatemala – a Grand Elder of the National Council of Elders of Mayas, Xincas and Garifunas of Guatemala, Jonas Trinkūnas of Lithuania – a father figure in the revival and popularization of the ancient Baltic faiths of the Lithuanians and chairmen European Congress of Ethnic Religions (ECER), Grand Chief Stan Beardy of Canada – Grand Chief of Nishnawbe Aski Nation and Shri Jagdeo Ram Uraon – President of Akhil Bharatiya Vanavasi Kalyan Ashram. This was followed by soul stirring traditional prayers by Pat McCabe a Navajo from USA and Solyomfi Nagy Zoltan of Hungary representing White Horse tradition of the Huns.

Zoltan - Hungary offering prayer European Pagan tradition

Dr. Pranav Pandya, Chancellor, DSVV, in his Presidential Address remarked that incomprehensible damage has been done to ancient cultures and traditions by a few groups who could not appreciate the diversity. He recalled the Mayan belief that a New Era is due in 2012 and proclaimed that the DSVV would be the epicenter of the same and hoped that differences would melt and future is sure to be of humanity seeking welfare and wellbeing of everyone.

Dr. Mohan ji Bhagwat, P. P. Sarsanghchalak of RSS, delivered the Keynote Address where he stressed the need to nourish the balance of nature. He praised the efforts and resolve of the Elders in preserving their traditions and cultures. He recalled the priceless treasures of Indian thought like ‘Live and Let Live’, ‘Unity in Diversity’, ‘World is one family’ & ‘Let us ennoble the world’ and remarked that these have extreme relevance today. Universal outlook is the hallmark of Indian thought and the happiness and well-being of everyone is always sought, he reminded. Dr. Bhagwat stated that it is only through integral view and not compartmentalized view that we can bring about the change in attitude. He also felt that it is our responsibility to show to the world that the age old traditions have solutions to modern problems. We have to become the instruments of change and for this we need to organize ourselves for the benefit of everything in this creation he concluded.

The 4-day event had transformed the delegates who arrived as strangers but returned as relatives. They felt empowered with the new connections and network. They could communicate with each other not with the help of a language but by their love, warmth, respect and affection for each other. The delegates returned with a renewed vigor and a greater clarity as to why the revitalization of their traditions is the need of the hour for the welfare of the world through a balanced and holistic approach.

Like Inra Jaka, who represents the small community of native Cham Hindus of Vietnam, convincingly stated that his struggle to retain everything that he finds closer to nature including arts, clothing, and philosophy is strengthened through this conference. His conviction for preservation of his tradition has grown thousand fold now.

Dr. Gulnara Aitpaeva attended such Gathering in Bharat for the first time and before setting off for her group’s journey back home to Kyrgyzstan said, “we would be attending the next conference in larger number and would also try to get representation from our neighboring countries. This conference has bolstered our self confidence.”

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Feb 2013 18:51

The Hindu World

Report of the 4th International Conference Gathering of the Elders of Ancient Traditions and Cultures, 4-7 March 2012 [ECER]