PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

vina · Post by **vina** » 20 May 2015 12:15

Austin wrote:Photos : UMPO/AL-31 Production Plant

http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/62583/

Naat. (R)indigeous! Machine tools have latin script. They are German/Amreki/Phrench/Oieropeon. Bad Bad.. What is the percentage of (R)Indigneisation if you can't even make CNC machine tools. Russia so backward!

vina · Post by **vina** » 20 May 2015 12:17

Austin wrote:Quite a detailed article on Black Wing created with Infusion Technilogy

The black wing for MS-21

. Naat (R)Indigenous. Russia using American /Pritish testing equipment. The overlay/infusion equipment too is imported. Bad Bad..

Russia just like Yindoo LCA. They are naaat indigenous in pre-preg for Composites. Roosi Kamposite not (R)Indigenous. How can a Composite wing be (R)Indigenous if even the pre-pref is imported, the measurement and overlay equipment is imported. Shame Shame.

MS-21 Black Wing == (Same same) as Yindoo LCA wing.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 May 2015 12:49

Its mostly the Evil Germans that export most machinery to them

vina · Post by **vina** » 20 May 2015 12:52

Its mostly the Evil Germans that export most machinery to them

Why go Lahore Via Kuwait ?

Why neat go dretkly to Kuwait?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 May 2015 16:12

vina wrote:
Austin wrote:Quite a detailed article on Black Wing created with Infusion Technilogy

The black wing for MS-21
. Naat (R)Indigenous. Russia using American /Pritish testing equipment. The overlay/infusion equipment too is imported. Bad Bad..

Russia just like Yindoo LCA. They are naaat indigenous in pre-preg for Composites. Roosi Kamposite not (R)Indigenous. How can a Composite wing be (R)Indigenous if even the pre-pref is imported, the measurement and overlay equipment is imported. Shame Shame.

MS-21 Black Wing == (Same same) as Yindoo LCA wing.

They have at least started making it. Around 2011-12 the wise said they could not. One of the 42 items the Indian team wanted in the FGFA was composites. That changed around 2014ish. LCA is actually ahead in this game.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 20 May 2015 21:19

vina wrote:
Its mostly the Evil Germans that export most machinery to them
Why go Lahore Via Kuwait ?

Why neat go dretkly to Kuwait?

Why not make most of the machinery in India? What difference would it make if Russia imports from Germany or India, or for that matter, are we at all even thinking about it. What is the point. See the graphs and links to graphs here link .

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 20 May 2015 22:17

brar_w wrote:There is a reasonable assumptions in such conditions that as the program matures more of these sorties are able to accomplish higher test points per sortie. It isn't altogether unreasonable that a highly mature test program is capable of accomplishing multiple test-points per sortie as well on occasions. Again having total number of sorties, or total number of flight hours (that may be asking for a bit much ) would still allow us to find out a lot more about progress then having nothing at all especially if the trend points to much higher volumes year on year.

According to an insider, the PAK FA prototypes have collectively flown a little under 500 sorties amounting to 600 flight hours. Which is rather underwhelming, but I suppose it could have been worse. The project could be delayed a fair bit and I suspect its not as awash in funding as it was two or three years ago.

T-50-1 - is being revised in OKB "Sukhoi", working hours 219 hours 197 landings.
T-50-2 - located in Zhukovsky, operating time of 123 hours, 141 landing.
T-50-3 - in LIiDB Ahtubinsk, operating time of 181 hours, 92 landings.
T-50-4 - in LIiDB Ahtubinsk, operating time of 74 hours, 49 landings.
T-50-5R - is in the final assembly shop KnAAZ. 5P - a project to restore the machine T-50-5 with knots T-50-6, stopped in production.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 21 May 2015 18:56

Vina, can you please go easy on pinglish ? It gets annoying to see it in every thread

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 May 2015 17:44

New Robotic Russian T-50 Fighter Jet Fit for Star Wars

Russia's new fifth-generation T-50 fighter jet, currently in the testing phase, incorporates elements of automation which make it more like a robot than a fighter plane, explains a representative from the Rostech corporation.

The Sukhoi PAK FA fighter jet, also known as T-50, is ready to go into production next year, and boasts innovative technology which renders the pilot one part of the plane's whole control system.

"The PAK FA is already to some degree a flying robot, where the aviator fulfils the function not only of pilot, but is actually one of the constituent parts of the flying apparatus," explained deputy head of the Concern Radioelectronic Technologies [KRET] unit of Rostech, Vladimir Mikheyev. "That is, the reaction of the aviator is a part of the control loop."

Mikheyev explains that "smart paneling" is another of the jet's smart features. "If we take the wingtip, from one perspective it functions as a wing, but from another it's also a part of the Himalaya active defense system."

In October KRET stated it had delivered the first batch of Himalayas for the aircraft, which were developed by a KRET subsidiary in Kaluga and constructed at the Stavropol Radioplant Signal.

"The unique system of active and passive radars and optical rangefinders is integrated into the aircraft body and acts as a 'smart skin'. Its use not only enhances the aircraft’s protection against jamming and its survivability, but also counters, to a great extent, the effects of low-observability [stealth] technology of enemy aircraft," explained KRET.

In January KRET lifted the lid on a number of the T-50's stealth capabilities, announcing that "the aircraft company Sukhoi managed to greatly reduce the effective surface scattering of the PAK FA, which is the basic element for visibility on aircraft radars."

"In order to achieve this level of stealth, designers moved all weapons to the inside of the plane and also changed the shape of the air intake channel, also lining its walls with a material that absorbs radio waves."

"Thanks to these new design solutions, the T-50 is now ahead of not only all other fighters of the Russian Army, but also foreign models. For example, the visibility of the American fifth-generation F-22 fighter is 0.3-0.4 square meters," said KRET, while the value of this indicator for the T-50 fighter is between 0.1 and 1 square meters.

"The T-50 is the first Russian combat aircraft made from a high proportion of composite materials, making up 25% of the mass of the aircraft and covering 70% of its surface," explained KRET.

The T-50 is set to replace the Sukhoi Su-27 fourth generation fighter jet, known also by its NATO name Flanker B, which entered service with the Soviet Air Forces in 1985, and the Mig-29, known by NATO as Fulcrum which entered service in 1983.

Work on the conception of fifth generation fighter jets began in the late 1980s in the USA and USSR; though there is no universally agreed set of features for the title of fifth-generation fighter jet, many hold that the only combat-ready fifth-generation fighter is the US Air Force's Lockheed F-22 Raptor, introduced in 2005.

In December Russia's United Aircraft Corporation announced that production of the fighter is ready to begin in 2016, following the completion of the testing phase. According to spokesman Vladislav Goncharenko, 55 PAK FA jets will be delivered to the Russian Air Force by 2020.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150525/ ... z3b9W5Zotg

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 25 May 2015 17:59

No wonder they have called one of their Su35 versions as Terminator.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 May 2015 18:28

Apr, 2015 :: Russia will be producing more than 1500 navigation systems for PAK FA per year

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 25 May 2015 20:04

^With all this fantastic news, I wonder why IAF doesn't care for it.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 May 2015 05:50

^^^^

Very good question.

Each AF has its own definition of what a "5th Gen" plane is. PAK-FA (RuAF) and FGFA (IAF) do not match - not even close I bet.

Modi has been asking both France and Russia to deliver within a few years (2/3?) of signing. The PAK-FA can be delivered, but not the FGFA - not even close.

_______________________________

I think IAF should accept a slightly modified of the PAK-FA, and reroute the saved funds into the AMCA (much like the Rafale/LCA thought).

Finally, I would very much like to see what happens to the 100,000 ton carrier that some in Russia are talking of. The naval version of the PAK-FA would certainly be more interesting - since it will have to operate in REAL hostile environs, unlike the AF PAK-FA.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 May 2015 12:22

I agree,it is better accepting a basic std. version which can/will be upgraded in time,than "waiting for Godot" endlessly,like we are doing with the LCA.If HAL can ramp up prod. of the first 40,then the IAF can put them trough their paces and decide upon future orders of Mk-1s/2s whatever. We do not even have adequate design/dev capability of creating a twin-seat version which we originally wanted ,which will only further increase costs ,increase dev. time ,etc. Acquiring a significant number of std. single-seat FGFA/T-50s ,perhaps with some indigenousl avionics,etc,as with the MKIs would suffice initially.

Russian production of the T-50 is supposed to begin soon.I'm not sure what the large navigation systems capability imples.Are some other Flanker variants in service ,SU-27/35,with the RuAF going to be upgraded with some of the tech found on the T-50?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 May 2015 17:13

I agree,it is better accepting a basic std. version which can/will be upgraded in time,than "waiting for Godot" endlessly,like we are doing with the LCA

Never let a chance go, eh?

I totally disagree. I would wait for the LCA/AMCA and NOT buy the PAK-FA at all. The PAK-FA is not worth it if it were to be compared to the LCA in terms of wait. Actually in terms of anything.

RM was on the right line of thinking when he was dealing with the Rafale and the LCA. That thinking stands true even for Russian products and expect RM to implement them soon. Why wait for that too?

It is FAR wiser to fund Indian MIC than a Russian one (which is an old trend).

#Expert?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 May 2015 17:20

You'll have a lot of waiting to do my friend if you think that the
AMCA,not even given the green light as of now will be in service within a decade! The LCA has also been given the yellow signal by the DM ,and it is upto all stakeholders to see that it succeeds. Imagining that it can replace an FGFA,well I leave that argument for juveniles to debate.
PS:I wonder what the IAF thinks,whether they want an FGFA or the LCA as they next stealth fighter.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 May 2015 17:23

We have done a lot of waiting with the FGFA already. Nothing we can do to control the past - it is there for us to study.

AMAC is in teh future and we can control it. Cancel this 5th Gen plan with the Russians and invest in the AMCA. As one can see, there is nothing unique in the PAK-FA anyways. The more India waits, the worse of - Russia cannot deliver.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 May 2015 17:26

The "wait" for the LCA is FAR better than the one for the FGFA.

Who knows, the LCA could be better in the hands of the IAF too, they do not have to "wait" for outsiders to modify it.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 26 May 2015 22:31

Why does this thread comes to LCA v/s FGFA. But I am glad we are at least focused on Indian MIC, and other than truism, to not forget that till end of Vietnam war the western countries were all about continuing colonial rule explicitly. Same for Goa liberation, and circus in UN against it.

Just making a point for being as independent as possible. It is a basic fact that the Chinese are building stealth platforms, and PAK-FA/FGFA provides a very good option in heavy fighter section.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 May 2015 23:01

What is worse than LCA in a PAK-FA thread is confusing FGFA with the PAK-FA. India is dead sure of making them two separate, independent programs

May 9, 2015 :: FGFA's R & D Phase Yet To Be Concluded

The Research & Development (R&D) phase of Indian Air Force’s Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project is yet to be concluded, Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar said in a Parliament today.

As per the draft R&D Contract, the delivery of FGFA can commence after 94 months from the start of the contract. However, the contract is yet to be signed.

#wait

I had to pull my calc out to compute 94 months: that 7.8333..... years!!!

The Preliminary Design phase of the project was completed by June 2013.

“A contract for the R & D phase is being prepared and is expected to be signed this year,” Yuli Slyusar, President and Chairman of the Management Board of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC)said during the Aero India Air Show.

“The export version of the 5th generation fighter, the perspective multi-functional fighter (PMF-FGFA) is being created in partnership with India. The Russian and Indian parties have generally agreed on the work share of each party,” he said.

#FUD.

Party line.

The Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) was the previous designation for the Indian version, while now the combined project is called the Perspective Multi-Role Fighter (PMF).

The completed PMF will include a total of 43 improvements over the T-50, including stealth, super cruise, advanced sensors, networking and combat avionics.

*************************** 5 ***************s

This is how India intends to make them separate:

Two separate prototypes will be developed, one by Russia and a separate one by India

IF this is true, then this is THE smartest move by India.

India would love to cut the umbilical at her convenience and fly on her own.

The 94 months is also another indicator of the FGFA being a separate program.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 27 May 2015 05:12

From 50-50 shared design and development partnership, Indian involvement in this program was down to 13% (as of last year). Russians will never allow any meaningful Indian participation in the ****-FA or TFTA or any other name that you call this aircraft.They will make the right comments, kill time and due to the resultant exigences and desperate situation that will emerge, India will have no option but to then purchase these 4.75 Generation aircraft (hopefully without a smoking engine) off the shelf.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 May 2015 10:11

Thus far the last official news on the issue was that the GOI/IAF wanted the FGFA fast-tracked,before 2020. All general issues had been sorted out. If a decision to go is taken within the next few months after the Putin-Modi meeting,then it would mean that we would get the Russian MK-1 avatar for the moment,until we make up our minds what to do after operating the Mk-1 bird with the rest of our stealth requirement. If our involvement is only 13% as reported,then we have only ourselves to blame.HAL never allotted sufficient manpower for the same,tasking the IJT team to handle the FGFA as well a few years ago. The FGFA/Pak-FA programme for Russia has strict deadlines which they are trying to meet,with Putin ready to pushing the spear up the backside of incompetents and/or even fire them as has been done in other projects. We either "go with the flow",pulling our weight or sit back and accept the Russian result.

Looking at the current situ with the Rafale decision of a min. order.something similar may happen here too.Let's wait and watch.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 27 May 2015 17:15

Again blaming Indian PSU's for Russian acts of commissions and omissions. How could have HAL assigned any additional team for the Project if Russians never actively asked for or involved India in the project definition & design and development phase's? Instead it just signed the 50-50 deal with India, went right ahead did all the development work alone and is now asking us to do some modification to the existing flying platform and be happy with it.
We gave $$$ to the Russians to turn the SU-27's into more effective SU-30's and the tiger having tasted blood wants more indian money to just take the T-50 do some screwdrivergiri(if at all) and call it the Indian FGFA!!!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 May 2015 18:51

Vipul,

Here is the article on "fast track" ..............

Jan, 2015 :: India, Russia agree to fast-track FGFA programme

"We discussed all issues, including the FGFA, and have decided to fast-track many of them as there are apprehensions about the slow pace in their execution," Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar said in New Delhi.

No where does this statement imply that the FGFA is "fast tracked". It may be. But, then it may not too.

The reason I thin it is the latter:

Official sources told IHS Jane's that differences persisted on the FGFA's preliminary design features despite a 10 January Russian media report claiming that the two sides had managed to resolve them following a four-year delay.

As I have pointed out many a times, the good or rosy news always comes from Russian sources. I just find that correlation rather strange - to say the least.

The same article on "fast track" states:

India is also insistent on Russia restoring its workload in the USD10.5 billion developmental programme after recently reducing it from 25% to 13% without consulting Delhi. It is also seeking greater access to the fighter's design configuration, which it claims it is denied

In true fashion, the article is from Jan, 2015 and we are a week away from June, 2015. Not much has changed (as far as news reports go).

Which is why I would prefer getting the PAK-FA an be done with it.

Considering that the FGFA is based on a proven platform - the PAK-FA - this "wait" is getting to be worse than the one for the LCA.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 May 2015 18:58

And, then, this from April, 2015.

Defence ministry ignores Russia's requests to discuss fighter project

Anti-fast tracking?

A letter from Russia's powerful export agency, Roso-boronexport, points India's defence ministry has not responded to Russian requests dated February 9 and March 3, which "suggested holding of the negotiations in February and March of 2015."

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 27 May 2015 20:23

^^^^ So now what does the resident Russian apologist here on BRF has to say to this:

"India is also insistent on Russia restoring its workload in the USD10.5 billion developmental programme after recently reducing it from 25% to 13% without consulting Delhi. It is also seeking greater access to the fighter's design configuration, which it claims it is denied"[/u]

Go ahead,i am waiting to see what kind of spin you are going to put on it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 May 2015 21:06

Do you even need to ask?
- Its HALs fault
- Its DRDOs fault
- Its IAFs fault
- Its MOD/GOIs fault
- Its not Russia's fault
- Its not Sukhois fault
- Putin is great
- Copy pasted rubbish from dodgy sites running down Indian programs
- Copy pasted rubbish from dodgy sites praising Russian claims (a la successful MiG-29K)

Combinations of above.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 May 2015 21:11

Interesting read

::

April, 2015 :: Analysis: India faces crunch decision over Rafale, PAK-FA

New Delhi faces a series of decisions on fast jet procurements that will determine the future direction and capabilities of the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) combat aircraft fleet.

At the heart of the matter is the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme - for which France's Dassault Rafale was down-selected in January 2012 - and Russia's Sukhoi T-50/PAK-FA fifth-generation fighter.

The central difficulty is what analysts in India described to IHS Jane's as a "massive disconnect between the Ministry of Defence [MoD], the IAF, and the political community in India who have to contend with larger diplomatic and industrial issues" on what the future IAF should look like.

At the centre of this conflict are those in favour of the Rafale and those who would instead place funds earmarked for that procurement into the development of a version of the T-50/PAK-FA, known in India as the Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

For New Delhi, the issue is that "the money does not exist to have both the Rafale and T-50 programmes and, if you choose one over the other, you are making decisions that have long-ranging effects", an Indian analyst told IHS Jane's .

"If you put your resources into the T-50, then the IAF becomes an almost all-Russian fleet, and you are betting your future force structure on an aeroplane that is almost solely on paper at present. If you decide to go with the Rafale, then you are forgetting about having a fifth-generation aeroplane, but at least you know everything on this platform exists and works pretty much as advertised," he added.

The Rafale's fortunes are helped by what is regarded as a growing pro-Western shift within the IAF. The combined experience of working with the United States on programmes like the Boeing C-17 and Lockheed Martin C-130J-30 and Dassault aircraft such as the Mirage 2000 has led IAF officers to embrace the Western model for running and supporting programmes over the Russian style of doing business.

"Many in the IAF do not like the way the Russians work with them," said one Indian specialist. "The Russians treat Indians like they are children and the IAF officials with the gold braid on their caps are used to being treated with excessive deference and the Russians do not do that."

At the same time, however, the shift in the preference for Western aircraft within the IAF does not translate into a future market for a US-made fighter. The IAF is happy to have US-made transports and other platforms, but is not inclined to purchase a US aircraft for frontline combat requirements.

"There are still plenty of those within the armed forces who remember what happened in 1998 when sanctions were slapped on India by the US over its nuclear programme," said the Indian specialist. "Until all of those who were in the armed forces at that time are retired and gone there will be no major acquisitions of something like a [Lockheed Martin] F-35."

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 May 2015 21:26

The simple facts are that Russians are acting too greedy with Indian JVs and consistently push the envelope in terms of extracting more and more. The IAF could live with this but for point 2, they simply run a shambolic supply chain system with politicians having to be roped in each time, some Russian firm decides to act crooked with the original terms of the deal. There would be no MMRCA contest if IAF was convinced Russia would not arm twist us. The amount of trouble we have gone through with MiG is a case in point. Sukhoi is a better run firm but even there, delays were dime a dozen. Only now are we getting serviceability up. Other option is to give TOT a miss and buy huge stocks outright from Russia, and we know whose interest that serves.

At the same time, relying on the US for weapons is fraught with issues given our own strategic requirements including the possibility of having to retest our strategic weapons, plus the possibility of a punitive strike against the Pakistanis, against whatever the US may insist we do.

All said & done, if there is any focus it should be on the AMCA to stand up for ourselves. Buy a few (144) PAKFA and be done with it, last aircraft we buy from Russia.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 May 2015 16:06

Russian 5th generation fighter to surpass US analogues — Air Force chief

http://tass.ru/en/russia/797168[quote]

ASHULUK (Astrakhan Region), May 28. /TASS/. Russia's PAK FA fifth generation fighter will be better than US-made F-22 and F35 jets, Russian Air Force commander Viktor Bondarev said on Thursday.

"It will practically surpass them [US fighters]," Bondarev told TASS.

The new aircraft will go into service in 2016, and its serial supplies to the troops will be launched in 2017, Bondarev said.

"Next year the fifth-generation fighter will go into service," he told TASS.

"We are completing the fighter’s tests and it will go into production starting from 2017," the commander added.

According to the commander-in-chief, the Russian Air Force will buy as many fifth-generation jet fighters as the Russian industry will be able to produce.

"We will be buying as many planes as industrial potentials will allow," he said in reply to the query [/quote]about order amounts.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 28 May 2015 17:51

^The russians are more bombastic and unbelievable with each day.

srai · Post by **srai** » 28 May 2015 17:52

India can't be a world power by buying weapons from abroad. History will tell you that all superpowers had their own MIC supplying to home and abroad.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 28 May 2015 18:36

^Indians imported war horses in the past and got screwed, now they want us to keep on importing so that they can screw us again.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 28 May 2015 18:59

Karan M wrote:....

At the same time, relying on the US for weapons is fraught with issues given our own strategic requirements including the possibility of having to retest our strategic weapons, plus the possibility of a punitive strike against the Pakistanis, against whatever the US may insist we do.

...

Agree on the self reliance part. But regardless of whether we have US weapons or not, in the past they have insisted on what we can and cannot do to Pakistan. Moreover, the LCA and AMCA are likely to have GE engines and that gives them leverage. So buying more American stuff is not likely to make us that much more vulnerable.

Going forward, I don't think they will interfere if we launch punitive missile or a/c strikes against the pakis. They will pressure us if the IA invades and tries to kill the PA. They also know GoI doesn't really want to start something that leads to scaring off foreign investment.

Much of the same logic applies to nuke testing. They already have enough on us that buying more from them will not make us that much more vulnerable.

Personally, I think there will be a repeat of 1996—one more round of allowed testing. If not, maybe the Rafale deal is about being allowed to use the French laser ignition testing facilities.

IOW, nuke testing IMHO is not a factor in buying (or not) American.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 28 May 2015 22:35

One has to give credit where it is due, which is that Americans will use their leverage regardless of purchase agreements. However, it is not appropriate to state that "buying more American stuff is not likely to make us that much more vulnerable". That is no way to buy anything at all, regardless of fundamental "clauses" agreements that no one needs in spite of paying hard cash.

The actual details of what USA is concerned with is immaterial here, in totality in all its crappy ways, other than to state that US will push its own schemes even at cost of win by India and Indians working for completing objectives that are independently planned.

However, it is important to know these facets - even AESA radar can't point these out in haze of propaganda in media. It gives credence to have as much independence in tech, and logically, better the level of tech we will require more independence and not less. PAK-FA/FGFA definitely scores here for sure logically.

However, all that does not push away important issues such as:
* If there is need to reduce dependence on Russian weapons, what is the point in increasing dependence on American weapons? Fact is, Americans will use their leverage more and more, and I have to disagree here that during times of war Americans will only blackmail this much and no further. Those who critique Russian weapon systems, in spite of Indians using the same, seem to ignore this completely; and American pie fanboys can not seem to see why Americans give away weapons to Paki jihadi types and ignore black market of nuclear weapons even.
* Our own planning, or lack of it (red tape), when test beds are not planned, prototypes are limited, and funds are not provided for even fuel required during test phase. And how much we lack flexibility due to foreign import of 6th Gen fighter due to lack of domestic MIC, and how much will Russian platform and deals offer in terms of this flexibility.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 28 May 2015 22:50

^^^"PAK-FA/FGFA definitely scores here for sure logically."

If it arrives. Russia is reliable (or more reliable) supplier than the US for sure. But their equipment is not. It arrives but does not work as advertised or is delayed and then does not work as advertised.

So it's a tradeoff: unreliable supplier vs. unreliable equipment.

LCA and AMCA won't solve the dependence problem because of engines.

We have to see how Russia's behavior towards us changes as they move into the PRC orbit.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 May 2015 01:44

Russia is reliable (or more reliable) supplier than the US for sure

I very much doubt any nation can be called "reliable". especially when India will be a direct competitor to each and every one of them.

"reliable" - understandably - is a relative and moving term.

WRT "Russia", one can only go by the data during the Soviet period.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 29 May 2015 01:53

NRao wrote:
I very much doubt any nation can be called "reliable". especially when India will be a direct competitor to each and every one of them.

"reliable" - understandably - is a relative and moving term.

WRT "Russia", one can only go by the data during the Soviet period.

Same with 'unreliable'. It's all a moveable feast with the only constant being clear strategic self interest.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 May 2015 09:16

Austin wrote: "The unique system of active and passive radars and optical rangefinders is integrated into the aircraft body and acts as a 'smart skin'. Its use not only enhances the aircraft’s protection against jamming and its survivability, but also counters, to a great extent, the effects of low-observability [stealth] technology of enemy aircraft," explained KRET.[/b]

"In order to achieve this level of stealth, designers moved all weapons to the inside of the plane and also changed the shape of the air intake channel, also lining its walls with a material that absorbs radio waves."

"Thanks to these new design solutions, the T-50 is now ahead of not only all other fighters of the Russian Army, but also foreign models. For example, the visibility of the American fifth-generation F-22 fighter is 0.3-0.4 square meters," said KRET, while the value of this indicator for the T-50 fighter is between 0.1 and 1 square meters.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150525/ ... z3b9W5Zotg[/quote]

two major points

- the air intake shape change
- passive radar on wings for stealth mode tracking

that 0.1 sq m RCS needs study

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 29 May 2015 20:30

Cosmo_R wrote:
NRao wrote:
I very much doubt any nation can be called "reliable". especially when India will be a direct competitor to each and every one of them.

"reliable" - understandably - is a relative and moving term.

WRT "Russia", one can only go by the data during the Soviet period.
Same with 'unreliable'. It's all a moveable feast with the only constant being clear strategic self interest.

As strategic self interest is the only constant, USA finds itself - very openly and explicitly - on the side of colonialism, or of genocidal munna during Bangladesh liberation war, and American weapons are used by Pakistan that IA has faced as part of war time experience.

However, Russians don't seem to find themselves in such situations at all, for the constant Soviet/Russian strategic interests!

Such banter needs to continue on this thread which seems to not find any mention at all anywhere else. For stealth fighter jets, we will definitely need more independence and not less, logically speaking. As and when Russians sort out logistics issues, and also, Indians will have spare banks as well as Russians, such issues will be solved. We have seen that to work in case of Su-30MKI very recently which is one of the best 4.5++ Gen fighter.