Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Apr 2015 20:01

No more imported tanks for the Indian army. Enough of Imports.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 21 Apr 2015 20:17

Philip wrote:You bet it will be offered,export version to India!

Amazing thing is how a BRFite can look forward to the prospect of the IA buying fewer Arjuns and more T-90s/Armatas.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 21 Apr 2015 20:34

Philip wrote:You bet it will be offered,export version to India! The hints that it has revolutionary features is intriguing.Everyone is waiting for the formal unveiling,perhaps at the May Day parade in Moscow. If it offers clear advantages over Arjun-2,one is sure that the IA will take a serious look at it. The crew is said to be housed in the hull itself,featuring a turretless tank,v.low profile,larger main gun,blah,blah.One wonders what it will cost though,clearly it will be more expensive than a T-90.

I have an idea.The Afghan govt. has been pelading with India for mil aid and we've been so spastic on the requests,a few light helos now being delivered (3 Cheetals),while they wany tanks,arty,etc.,"the full Manekshaw"! We struck a deal with Russia earlier where they supplied eqpt. which we paid for.

Now we have large numbers of T-72s,which we plan to upgrade and are behind the time frame curve on both this and T-90,Arjun manufacture. If we dispose of sev. hundreds of T-72s to the Afghans,and they do not need the huge improvements that we've planned,just slat armour to defeat tandem warhead RPG rounds of the Taliban,as no air threat is envisaged.We would then open space for sev. hundreds of brand new tanks for the IA.This could be filled new Arjuns and new Armatas,reducing the number of T-72 upgrades and T-90 production as this would be a far superior FMBT.

This way both desi tanks (Arjuns) and the latest from Russia would equip the IA,while we sustain a strategically critically important neighbor from the machinations of the Pakis and Chinese. It would stop the supply of Chinese eqpt. in their tracks( pun intended),as China is trying v.v.hard with the Pakis to grasp Afghanistan as another arm with which to encircle India.

Bizarre how you peddle Russian garbage at the cost of Indian products.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 21 Apr 2015 20:42

So it is Amrata now? How many jingos remember the Oplot from a decade back and what a super duper 400% better than Arjun tank that was touted to be

Shalav · Post by **Shalav** » 21 Apr 2015 21:10

The Armata looks like it is a 7 road-wheel heavy!

If they ever consider it for import how will the IA justify it v/s the Arjun's 7 road-wheel heavy configuration?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 21 Apr 2015 21:15

Shalav,

Can you check the LCA thread.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 22 Apr 2015 05:26

Shalav wrote:The Armata looks like it is a 7 road-wheel heavy!

If they ever consider it for import how will the IA justify it v/s the Arjun's 7 road-wheel heavy configuration?

Its all in the weight Saar, IA's laagic is simple:

It weighs only 48 tons and can therefore be used all over the nation unlike the Arjun. So there.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Apr 2015 06:04

aditp wrote:Armata fires first round at the Indian Market

They have already mentioned that Russia can produce 500 a year if order is given.
Natasha Tank it is to do 72 of T72s.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Apr 2015 06:19

Why is a BMP sized cannon glued behind the turret?
Just another fading rus effort in tank market

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 22 Apr 2015 07:40

^How is it different from one of those funny unmanned turret designs like the Falcon? Has anyone in Russia bothered to figure out why its not very popular? Also, why do some people shower praise at even a rusted tin can from Russia?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Apr 2015 09:13

from the horse's mouth here is the real armata rt.com - there are two variants called T-14 (MBT) and T-15 (heavy IFV)

http://rt.com/news/251641-armata-first-tank-photo/

So far, Armata platform’s chief tank T-14 has been rumored to come armed with:

- remote-controlled 125mm smoothbore cannon

- 30mm sub-caliber ranging gun to deal with various targets, including low-flying aerial targets

- 12.5mm heavy machine gun with a turret, which can take out anti-tank missiles

- active-phased array antenna and a large variety of other sensors.

Coupled with wholly mechanized electric transmission, the Armata is expected to have the potential to evolve into a fully robotic battle vehicle. However, there is a multi-layer armored capsule for the crew of just two operators.

Produced in the Urals Region, Armata tank’s worth is rumored to be at around 400 million rubles (approx. $7.4 million), with 2,300 units estimated necessary for the Russian Army.

Brand-new T-15 (Object 149) heavy infantry combat vehicle based on the platform of the Armata main battle tank appears to have the same power plant and armor as Armata MBT, made of a ‘cake layer’ of newly-developed armor steels, ceramic and composite materials.

pS. note the 1 foot thick spaced armour packages on the sides of the T-15

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Apr 2015 09:16

with 7 road wheels and if its adequately armoured, I do not see how this thing can weigh in less than 55t . the unmanned turret might be a little smaller than regular MBTs and save some weight but the 30mm cannon and its ammo will surely add some weight and in the photo above it does not look a whole lot smaller

from the back overhanging bustle, they seem to have gone for a hull mounted autoloading system for the main gun...same old same old

and with just 2 crews how are they expected to deploy in the field, cook food, stand watch as sentries , do repairs on the engine and tracks without being undermanned ? even loading 45 rounds of ammo at 9 kg each and 1000s of rds of HMG ammo from the ground into the tank is a exhausting task and usually needs 3 people - one on the ground, one standing atop the tracks and one inside the turret.

the T-15 heavy IFV might be more useful product.

nevertheless DGMF will likely hug the Armata to death and immediately revise the GSQR which Arjun mk2 has to pass to qualify .. a hot new nastasha is in town

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 22 Apr 2015 09:20

^What about the width, is it slim enough to fit in Indian railway wagons? Who am I kidding, its Russian, so the entire railway network will be modified if need be.

srin · Post by **srin** » 22 Apr 2015 09:24

What I do like about the concept is a single armoured platform for lighter (IFV) and heavier (MBT) applications, and a single crew compartment. Doesn't mean we should buy it though. Only that we should explore those concepts on our own.

In any case, my ideal tank would have no main gun, only VLS Nag and a 30mm cannon.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 22 Apr 2015 09:25

Also, will this have a CITV? How can it be used by the gunner/commander? Will he look through gunner's sight and commander's sight simultaneously. Will he have 2 faces and 4 eyes? Wasn't the CITV an "indispensable" part of Arjun upgrade. Will it be given up for Russian maal? Who am I kidding, of course it will.

srin · Post by **srin** » 22 Apr 2015 09:35

Arun Menon wrote:Also, will this have a CITV? How can it be used by the gunner/commander? Will he look through gunner's sight and commander's sight simultaneously. Will he have 2 faces and 4 eyes? Wasn't the CITV an "indispensable" part of Arjun upgrade. Will it be given up for Russian maal? Who am I kidding, of course it will.

Arun-sir, you forgot the biggest question - does it have AC ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Apr 2015 09:54

^^ it will have a heater for bitter winter in russia. wrt to the AC, it will not be included in the cost and drdo will be asked to make it.

DGMF has been unable/unwilling to work with indian industry (now quite mature) to get us a family of useful 4x4 and 6x6 recce vehicles with high domestic content. we have nothing like the fennec or ever the russian Tigr in the link above. we languish at the bottom in terms of light recce capabilities after the retirement of the BTR-60/70 we used to have.

all they do is read foreign brochures it seems. they need to move from a consumer to a technology driven setup where they work with domestic firms and come up with solns that meet our needs , not buy something and then rework to meet our needs.

scams like lowering the price of T90 for parliamentary consumption to show it as cheaper than arjun and then buying up the missing parts and begging drdo to fix a aux cooler should be severely tracked and punished.

we need guy like Khal Drogo in charge - ruthless but result oriented and fair to hard workers

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Apr 2015 10:20

the armata hull could pass off as a exact ripoff copy of the Arjun.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 22 Apr 2015 10:25

This will be the end of Arjun unless NM and MP does something really big to support Arjun. Russia will offer "Make in India" also to us. 15-20 years down the line we will be making same kind of arguments for and against this system and some another India system.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Apr 2015 10:29

I thought that there was 3-man crew in the forward part of the hull.News about a 2-man crew,which seems a crew-man too little. Anyway,let's wait for the "full Zhukov" unveiling to find out the exact specs.

The idea is not to stifle Arjun production,but to manufacture as much as we cam,at least 400-500Mk-2s,specs frozen for the first MK-2A version. Reduce T-90 production and T-72 upgrades by hiving off the T-72s to Afghanistan in particular,who are desperate for arms,tanks,etc. Do you want the Chinese to give them tanks and arms and encircle us further?There is plenty of scope for us to get the best of desi and firang tank tech for the IA.

With the money saved on these two decisions,use it for buying/building in India with some TOT,the Armata.Together ,Arjun and Armata will roast anything the Pakis and Chinese send into battle.

PS:The side armour protecting the tracks appears to have learnt from the lessons of the last Israeli spat in the Lebanon,where the Hiz took out many Merkavas with tandem warhead RPG rounds. It looks like it is double/triple layered with slat armour as well at the rear. The AESA radar and other sensors,with auto anti-air/missile systems is novel. One has to see how it performs in trials and on the battlefield eventually. But this seems to be a bold new initiative in tank design. The Russians right from WW2 have been great tank innovators.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 22 Apr 2015 10:33

srin wrote:
Arun Menon wrote:Also, will this have a CITV? How can it be used by the gunner/commander? Will he look through gunner's sight and commander's sight simultaneously. Will he have 2 faces and 4 eyes? Wasn't the CITV an "indispensable" part of Arjun upgrade. Will it be given up for Russian maal? Who am I kidding, of course it will.
Arun-sir, you forgot the biggest question - does it have AC ?

What are you saying man, don't you know that sweating one's a$$ off in the Thar desert increases situational awareness and prevents tankers from becoming complacent and lazy?

Heck, the T-90 design is so good that it has melting rubber grips that stick to the skin so well that there is no scope for things slipping from the hand in all that sweat. See, how much foresight the T-90 designers ? Its custom made for India from the beginning itself.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Apr 2015 10:37

Sorry for making a personal reply to a poster.

Philip, you are a rus rakshak and not a Bharat Rakshak. That you are salivating over an unproven piece of Russian hardware. While a domestic tank has been made to run through the gauntlet of tests to make sure that it is fit for service.

But pre production vehicles, that have not even undergone state acceptance trials in Russia are OK for you. To be imported into India service.

Please get some perspective.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 22 Apr 2015 10:41

Giving Tanks to Afghan Army may be a risky proposition. Once Khan withdraws it forces, financial support to Afghans will be stopped by US congress and with the Afghan army may end up spitting along war lards most of whom may be not friends of India.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 22 Apr 2015 10:43

^Shhh, you are ruining plans to import the new tin can.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 22 Apr 2015 10:45

IA uvacha: Let Bhisma (T-90) and Drona (my name for Aramata) get all accolades, humble Arjun can wait for his glory moments.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Apr 2015 10:48

I do not see a 3rd hatch in the front hull or room for a third guy to sit there..unlike the merkava the turret is about the usual distance from the front. it is possible but highly improbable the gunner uses the same hatch as the commander and crawls into a fwd seat ...
another possibility is the gunner sits inside the turret as the only man in there...this actually makes more sense to me as he rotates with the turret and so does his gunsight. firing it remotely from a static seat is not so intuitive

I think the 30mm cannon will be dropped in production models...it will need a heavy machinery to support and aim , vulnerable to external damage being all out there and hardly any room to carry a good complement of shells. its a IFV weapon unsuitable for just glueing atop a MBT. let it remain in flash gordon comics.

imo the lean turret thing makes more sense in a Merkava style hull - front engine and commander, very high hull around 6 feet tall for roomy comfort and lots of ammo storage.
gunner inside the turret. lots of extra ammo & ATGM reloads in the back space. bustle autoloader

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Apr 2015 11:10

Prat,pl read carefully what I've said. produce 400-500 Arjun Mk-2s since they've cleared (?) trials by the IA. Reduce T-72 upgrades by a few hundred tanks,give the tanks to the Afghans. I simply cannot understand the reluctance to give the Afghans anything. They're going to be overrun by the Paki-Taliban combine if they cannot defend themselves. The US is willing to give money but not put boots on the ground. We are supplying them after years just 3 paltry Cheetals.Is that going to stop the Taliban-ISI? Do we want the Pakis and Chinese to grab strategic depth and encircle us by taking over Afghanistan? Why the defeatist mentality by some?

We earlier worked out a deal where the Russians supplied eqpt for which we paid for,it is common knowledge.We bite our tongues and swallow our pride when the Chinese grab Gwadar from the Pakis for 99 years.linked by a road-rail network through Tibet all the way to China,tried to build a giant Chinese base adjacent to Colombo harbour,and do b*gger all. If that is our timid and spineless attitude then we deserve to be Chinese slaves!

India should take the bit between its teeth and boldly say that a sovereign,independent Afghanistan is in our interests. Neither the Central Asian states or the Russians want Afghanistan to fall into Paki or Chinese hands,or IS for that matter. Russia is retaining its air bases in some CA nations as a precaution.
Iran,Afghanistan and Central Asia are vital to our security.In friendly control,they put pressure upon Pak,by encircling it,instead of it encircling us.The Pakis are openly shielding the 26/11 terrorists in Pak,allowing them to openly talk of a new "jihad" against India.So what stops us from improving our mil relationship with own allys the Afghans? WE want them to be armed sufficiently to preserve their own independence. Have we forgotten how the ISI attacked our embassy in Kabul?

Anyway,this td. is about armour. Yes,test the new Russian FMBT by all means before taking any decision.If it is vastly superior to the T-90,then convert the unbuilt T-90 options into the new tank. It will give us a tremendous advantage over the Pakis and PLA.

PS:Read this.dated,but little has changed sicne then.

http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2013/09/06 ... tral-asia/
India’s ailing strategic policy in Central Asia
6 September 2013

Author: Micha’el Tanchum, Shalem College

Xcpt:

New Delhi’s poor manoeuvring has left it without a robust strategic policy in Central Asia, a region critical for India’s energy, trade and security needs. This lack of direction raises doubts about India’s capacity to maintain strategic partnerships across the region, and whether its strategic planning can match its world power aspirations. If India is to reverse the lacklustre performance of its ‘Connect Central Asia Policy’, it needs to offset its strategic setbacks in Tajikistan, particularly now that India has lost its use of Tajikistan’s Ayni airbase.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 22 Apr 2015 11:15

^Your concern for the Afghans is touching

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 22 Apr 2015 11:20

Philip Sir,

Right now Taliban and Afgan forces are just fluid. They can interchange their uniform and flag as situation demands. If we supply T-72s, its like arming your enemy (Taliban-ISI).

Afganistan is not matured nation-state, its still a loose confabulation of war lords. At best, we can re-route any hardware to Northern Alliance commanders (non-Pasthun). At present set up, its not easy to ask Afgan govt that "we give so-n-so armaments to so-n-so commanders). Its not like money supply that can be suppressed (big armaments), so better for India at present only to meddle in Developmental tickets, but not big military items. JMT.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 22 Apr 2015 11:58

Philip wrote:With the money saved on these two decisions,use it for buying/building in India with some TOT,the Armata.

1. Any MBT requires training, maintenance, spares, specialized munitions, gobs of diesel and open ground for maneuver. All of which Afghanistan is short on. What they need for mobility are APCs & IFVs, but more importantly jeeps, trucks and new highways.

2. And your money saving scheme doesn't mask the basic fact that you want the money 'saved' to be invested the T-14 Armata rather than the Arjun Mk2/Mk3 or even the FMBT.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Apr 2015 13:52

Philip the point is no more imports tanks. When Arjun exists. Not how many Arjuns are made.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Apr 2015 14:03

with the funding for the MSR being halved, the 'quick purchase' on direct basis for another 200-300 T90 should also be cancelled.

sooner we consign russi tanks to the scrapyard the better.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Apr 2015 14:20

The last thing we need now is yet another tank , We have T-72 which would be upgraded , T-90 which could be upgrade at some point and both these upgrade adds life of around 15 years atleast , then we have Arjun Mk1 and sooner most modern Arjun Mk2 , Not to mention there are reports that Indian Army maintains a significant number of T-55/Vijayanta !

We need to only purchase Arjun hence forth and in the next decade move to FMBT/FICV

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Apr 2015 15:03

The t72 upgrades were a failure in various degrees. The polish drawa fCS iirc did not work well here...
Someone in brf would have the dirt on this series of upgrades

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Apr 2015 15:21

If I am not wrong the DRDO CIA Upgrade for T-72 has been inducted in few 100's and has been a success , the original upgrade before CIA was a failure.

Also new upgrade involving AC and FCS .Engine for T-72 is been planned for it involving DRDO and israel

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Apr 2015 15:23

We replaced Drawa-T with TISAS...around 600 T-72s, 300 BMP-2s have those
http://wk101626788.company.weiku.com/it ... 11191.html

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Apr 2015 15:28

Check Saurav Jah write up on Indian MBT program

http://m.ibnlive.com/blogs/sauravjha/29 ... grams.html

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Apr 2015 16:11

Even as the domestic production of the T-90S stabilizes there may be a move underway to procure some 354 T-90MS tanks from Russia directly to counter the Chinese at some points on the LAC.

> this stupid proposal should be given the ignominious burial it deserves.

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 22 Apr 2015 17:32

Yes,test the new Russian FMBT by all means before taking any decision.If it is vastly superior to the T-90,then convert the unbuilt T-90 options into the new tank.

let me modify this statement
Yes,test the new Russian FMBT by all means before taking any decision.If it is vastly superior to the arjun,then convert the unbuilt T-90 options into the new tank. if i would have been defense minister, i would consider armata only after 15-20 years in russian service in numbers provided they prove their mettle. till then arjun mk1,2,3

on another note, why make 400-500 arjuns? why not 1000-1100 and just ignore any T-xx?

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 22 Apr 2015 23:30

(offtopic)

http://img.gazeta.ru/files3/785/6650785 ... -17322.jpg
http://img.gazeta.ru/files3/781/6650781 ... -79046.jpg
http://s2.postimg.org/im35sqbyx/oc_W6_X_t_M8_Zw.jpg