Bharat Rakshak

vijayk wrote:may be patent it if you can

It is an idea. there is no use patenting if gov is not interested in..

I can work with GoI to marchitect this solution. I can work with them direct to help write the most important piece of the solution. too early to feel good.

but, you know how things work in desh

nandakumar wrote:Cheques are negotiable instruments. Which is why you hear of someone being prosecuted under the Negotiable Instruments Act for dishonour of a cheque. The title to the value implicit in the instrument can be endorsed and transferred if it is not made out as Account Payee to the name of the 'payee'. Also the drawer's bank cannot be faulted for paying to the credit of the account of the person to whom it has been properly endorsed. That said, it doesn't quite have the same versatility as that of a currency note when it comes to assured exchange for value. But if there is some mechanism by which the bank promises that equivalent value as mentioned in the cheque has been frozen from the account of the issuer and hence the person accepting it in exchange for sale of some good or service is not exposed to the risk of default. This is somewhat analogous to a brokerage subsidiary of a scheduled commercial bank such as ICICI Direct or HDFC Securities when they directly communicate with bank account of the customer, putting a lock on the amount for which security is purchased. But as to patentability of SaiK's idea there is just the danger that it might be challenged under the patents law, as a work of 'prior art'!

It would require more digital information on the cheque printed using MICR. Now, what gets printed is the secret. so my idea is once this validated cheque is printed (I am not calling it cheque, because of the new idea). It is a combination of DD, cheque printing and some digital v&v system - that applies to all of its sub-product usecases /scenarios- bank connected, and disconnected uses. This is also a big-data thing, so it is all interconnected solution. Once your print these DNIs, you are actually converting them to "cash equivalent" {in the sense, has a validity period + bank authorized/documented/account balanced}. I am keeping it only that much info exposed now.

Remonetisation nearly complete, says Shaktikanta Das

the central bank will take a call in the near future on lifting the only remaining restriction, which is weekly withdrawal of Rs 24,000 from a savings bank account.

This move, if it eventuates, will be a clear win for those who stubbornly held out and refused to go digital.

I don't see why. It should be clear to most ppl by now that whether you deposit or withdraw large sums, Big Brother gets to know about it. Beyond that, why put restrictions on what people want to do with their own money? That's blatant communism.

Meanwhile, OT maybe, but the shape of a RaGa idea of freedom:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/03/europe/ro ... index.html

Come 2 think of it. My Evil 6th coujin has always used the $9900 limit when depositing cheques in desi bainks from Mongolia (why? because 10K+ has to be reported to Big Bro). Got a call from Mongolian financial institution asking why. Replied, hey, because I have heard that if one exceeds 10K one has to fill some **** form, so why would I want to do that? Said pls in future go over 10K, because it is not you but we that have to do the form-filling and reporting, and it may look like we/you are dodging.

Made E6C mad to think of it (you stay on the right side of the law, and they say "AHA! You came CLOSE to the line, that means you didn't want us to see you cross the line!" E6C thought of telling them that it was their evil dirty minds that made them have such suspicions, he/they reported income, paid taxes in both desh and Mongolia and filled out Fin Chen etc, but then said nah! Signs of the times. No skin off nose. Happy to oblige in future.

But the 24K withdrawal limit is like that. If you cross that, or even if you don't, THEY are watching. That report about how many ppl deposited between Nov 8 and Dec 30 and how much, is absolutely Somewhere in there is moi, with an amount that was so far below in the noise level as to be laughable.
If you withdraw ek karod, and ur 6th coujin the real estate dealer depojits ek karod tomorrow, the nasty suspicious computer identifies the trail.

Danda has started to fall on those who were doing hanky panky business during DeMo.

156 public sector bank officials suspended for note ban irregularities

NEW DELHI: As many as 156 senior officials of various state-owned banks were suspended and 41 transferred after they were found involved in irregularities related to demonetisation, Parliament was informed on Friday.

"Certain bank officials have been found involved in irregularities relating to demonetisation. On the basis of prima facie involvement in the irregularities, public sector banks (PSBs) have so far reported to have placed 156 officials under suspension and to have transferred 41 officials," finance minister Arun Jaitley said in the Lok Sabha.

Banks also reported having filed 26 cases with police and the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) wherever criminal cases were involved, he added.

amitkv wrote:Danda has started to fall on those who were doing hanky panky business during DeMo.

156 public sector bank officials suspended for note ban irregularities

NEW DELHI: As many as 156 senior officials of various state-owned banks were suspended and 41 transferred after they were found involved in irregularities related to demonetisation, Parliament was informed on Friday.

"Certain bank officials have been found involved in irregularities relating to demonetisation. On the basis of prima facie involvement in the irregularities, public sector banks (PSBs) have so far reported to have placed 156 officials under suspension and to have transferred 41 officials," finance minister Arun Jaitley said in the Lok Sabha.

Banks also reported having filed 26 cases with police and the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) wherever criminal cases were involved, he added.

What danda ???
they are merely suspended or transferred. Is that the punishment

Now that the money supply is 'normal' again, I hope the GoI/ RBI does not print any more Rs 2,000 or Rs 500 notes. The sheer inconvenience of doing large cash transactions in smaller denominations will force people towards electronic payments.

The fact that more 100s are being printed should indicate that 2000s will not be replaced when brought in as soiled or torn notes. So about ten years for phased withdrawal, in a growing economy. Eventually the non-availability of larger denominations will have to coincide with an increase in digital transactions. (i.e. no large denominations will added even though the economy will likely double by 2025 because a larger proportion of transactions will be digital).

I think 2000 notes printing was stopped on Nov 8, it was the ruse before Demo. However 4.95 lakh crores was printed by then, and by and large what is being deposited in Banks is these 2000 Rs notes. SO expect ATM's to be dispensing these 2000 Rs notes for some time cause most of the public don't want them.

If Banks do not reissue the two thousand notes which are deposited with them then the notes will not go into circulation. Slowly arrange for the notes to be deposited with RBI and the issue only 100s and 50s in their place. Slowly start the same with 500s also. Soon there will be no 2000s and 500s in circulation and only hoardings will be there. One fine morning return of Nov8 and that is all.

RBI is now on the right path. But I am not sure we need to encourage credit cards like that.

http://www.financialexpress.com/economy ... ds/537486/

The big problem with unglic transactions is fraud. The other din someone (The Principal) from an Indian engg college sent out a nice desperate mass email asking many people to send their "DOB, PAN, and Bank Account Details" by COB that day (4pm). Had apparently neglected to collect that info for setting up employee payments etc. Email came out after 4PM BTW. Frightening thing is that one could not tell if this was a Nigerian General Leaving $4B type scam or legitimate 400% stupidity. When one asked, one got only silence. Principal was probably offended. Some worthies CC-ALL'ed their responses, giving all those details.
Was Charles Darwin a desi-born scientist I wonder... how else did he get those accurate observations so fast?

Digital transaction slows down in January

With the availability of cash in ATMs and in many bank branches, the number of digital transactions has dipped. The value of overall digital transactions fell by 10.38% in January compared to December. In volume terms, the transaction value fell 7% to Rs96.79 lakh crore.

If this trend continues, I fully expect merchants to stop accepting digital payments. That would be several steps backwards and loss of momentum.

When ATM cash talks, the bulsh@t electronic economy walks.

Lots of shops that went cashless have reverted to cash only lately. Buildup of Kala money has restarted. Only way to push digital transactions is to reduce the highest denomination to 50 and put limits on cash at each stage. I feel that a great opportunity has been squandered.

rahulm wrote:Digital transaction slows down in January

With the availability of cash in ATMs and in many bank branches, the number of digital transactions has dipped. The value of overall digital transactions fell by 10.38% in January compared to December. In volume terms, the transaction value fell 7% to Rs96.79 lakh crore.

If this trend continues, I fully expect merchants to stop accepting digital payments. That would be several steps backwards and loss of momentum.

When ATM cash talks, the bulsh@t electronic economy walks.

But there was a similar drop-off from December 2015 to January 2016.

rahulm wrote:[
If this trend continues, I fully expect merchants to stop accepting digital payments.

A whole lot of merchants have invested in PoS machines and all are still taking digital payments.

Also payer can demand digital...

A_Gupta wrote:

rahulm wrote:Digital transaction slows down in January
If this trend continues, I fully expect merchants to stop accepting digital payments. That would be several steps backwards and loss of momentum.
When ATM cash talks, the bulsh@t electronic economy walks.

But there was a similar drop-off from December 2015 to January 2016.

Business activity is seasonal. It ramps up through December, falls off in January, and picks up again late March before close of financial year, then again drops off until after kharif harvest late summer. Such seasonal activity is true of every major economy. The Chinese for example, always have a big drop around Chinese New Year and National Day golden weeks, when everyone's gone on vacation to their family homes.

It will be useful to,watch the new few months and chart the share of electronic transactions in the overall economy, which, hopefully, should increase (but I feel will decrease unless GOI makes key policy changes )

Small denominators are a nuisance but won't stop demand for cash. We Indics have a very high pain tolerance threshold where money is concerned as demonstrated by the haggling for 15 minutes over 5 rupees

The GST will make redundant preference for cash in a large section of the economy making these traders indifferent tocash or electronic payments.

JE Menon wrote:Also payer can demand digital...

Not in India I'm afraid. The payer mostly cannot demand anything. Except pharmacies and petrol pumps and gobarmint services requests for even a pucca receipt are scoffed at with a smirk and a request to go elsewhere. [Rant: how some almost everything in India becomes mafiagiri?]

rahulm wrote:

JE Menon wrote:Also payer can demand digital...

Not in India I'm afraid. The payer mostly cannot demand anything. Except pharmacies and petrol pumps and gobarmint services requests for even a pucca receipt are scoffed at with a smirk and a request to go elsewhere. [Rant: how some almost everything in India becomes mafiagiri?]

India is a big country. In Bengaluru people can do that and have their way. If the people with money want digital, the people who want to do business will go digital. Demonetization did one good thing - it reminded everyone that it is possible to survive without notes.

Where rules are enforced everyone soon starts following. In BLR they have enforced seat belts, helmets for rider AND pillion and they have enforced a ban on plastic plates/cups and bags. People will do things even in India - but it will be faster in some places.

rahulm wrote:

JE Menon wrote:Also payer can demand digital...

Not in India I'm afraid. The payer mostly cannot demand anything. Except pharmacies and petrol pumps and gobarmint services requests for even a pucca receipt are scoffed at with a smirk and a request to go elsewhere. [Rant: how some almost everything in India becomes mafiagiri?]

The bolded italicized lines in above post may be true in Goa .. but not so in many areas of TN. You indicate that you will buy only if you get a bill ... the shop keeper will surely give it to you, whether its a small electrical or hardware or rice selling shop or so. The customer always has the option to go to some other nearby shop & buy the same product with a bill and this makes many of the shops comply with the need to provide bills when their customer requests for one. Word-Of-Mouth about arrogant owner of shop will also singe the business of that shop in its immediate nearby market & customer target areas. Sometimes one can buy the same product from an online retailer with the purchaser even receiving a few % cut in price for the debit/credit card you use and you will definitely get a bill in these types of purchases.

The one effect of rupee demonetization is that people with savings will trust the govt (and by extension the rupee) less.

At any given time, govt can steal all that a person has worked for through currency devaluation and/or removal from circulation.

The net result is people avoiding rupees altogether and preserving their wealth in a form that is harder for govt/banksters to rip off.

the sad reality is Indians are subjected to so many social experiments by those who claim to have 'their best interests at heart' & those who work for their own self-interest at heart. The poor common middle-class Indian has to bear brunt of tender mercies of both groups viz the nationalists & also the swayamsevaks (service to self). Both these groups are claiming to work for India's farmers, middle-class, aam admi. I see signs of a revolution in India if these failed experiments are repeated again. This time round it is going to be total mobocracy, no one leader will be able to control it.

Neshant wrote:The one effect of rupee demonetization is that people with savings will trust the govt (and by extension the rupee) less.

At any given time, govt can steal all that a person has worked for through currency devaluation and/or removal from circulation.

The net result is people avoiding rupees altogether and preserving their wealth in a form that is harder for govt/banksters to rip off.

And the data supporting these assertations are available at ???

Neshant wrote:The one effect of rupee demonetization is that people with savings will trust the govt (and by extension the rupee) less.

At any given time, govt can steal all that a person has worked for through currency devaluation and/or removal from circulation.

How would the govt. steal people's money from banks?

The net result is people avoiding rupees altogether and preserving their wealth in a form that is harder for govt/banksters to rip off.

As opposed to hoarding cash and hiding it under their pillows?

I think Denom is now yesterdays news. Except for those who have big chunk of BM deposited into the bank, rest of the people have moved onto new topics of conversation. With INdians being such poor nation, Most of us hardly had any BM to worry about.
Yes, it did cause problems in Nov-Dec but things seem to be back to normal (Except for ATM's which still spit out RS.2000 only).
It surely has made lot of us aware of Digi-transactions and few more apps on our phones.
PS: Why does not my bank give me some chillar like 1,2 or 5 rupee coins ?

VikasRaina sir, a few points.

• I have ceased to post actively on this thread because posters have become combative in response. This defeats purpose of discussion and nothing is gained on both sides. Neither my understanding grows, nor the people I address are able to understand what I am trying to say because they turn reflexively combative. To understand we must soften our perceptions and make way for other pov etc.
• Second point is overwhelming experience of demon on this forum is It-vity bangalore based (min sal for +2 yr exp is greater than 2 peti per month) Next category of demon supporters are NRIs (who visit India for max a month). And their income source is outside India.
  
  both the above categories of people have enough savings to easily last out an year on demon or whatever contingency. How can these folks relate to common man in India ? They may recollect it from past memory of trekking without footwear etc. But in present day, they are all uncommon, in high savings bracket and insulated.
• then again bangalore is a boom town, even domestic workers, daily wagers, and small business owners have greater resilience to economic uncertainty due to their accumulated savings momentum during boom period.
• Same is applicable in smaller scale for Delhi, Mumbai, Hyderabad, Pune, Nagpur, Chennai, Goa (tourist boom town) and other major urban centres. Problem can only be studied while going smaller towns and small businesses that just about manage to keep above water month-on-month. For these small businesses and tradesmen in small towns, demonitisation was akin to outbreak of war or economic recession.

IT notices have started arriving thick and fast.. the CA's have their hands full replying to the notices... anybody with deposits in excess of 5L cash have received notices. A quiz comprising of 4 to 5 questions has to be answered online... 2nd phase people between 2.5L to 5L will get notices... the Big 4 consultancy firms are assisting the govt in sifting the data...

I am sure DEMO will be repeated in the future by NDA and it will be a regular drill to send a clear message that cash is a volatile thing to stash under the bed. Cash will automatically make way for digital payment but it will take some time and the first step has been taken. Each DEMO cycle will yield about lacks of crores into the GOVT kitty to be used to plough back into the country.

SaraLax wrote: The bolded italicized lines in above post may be true in Goa .. but not so in many areas of TN. You indicate that you will buy only if you get a bill ... the shop keeper will surely give it to you, whether its a small electrical or hardware or rice selling shop or so.

This is generally true in KL too as much as my experience goes - even small shops usually have no problem making a bill and handing it to you. But if one expects a bill for buying flowers or vegetables from a roadside cart, that may be a bit much....

The answer to these issues lies partly in economic growth and development. With more penetration of organized retailers and supermarkets, the vast majority of vendors and sellers will be "forced" to issue bills and receipts since customers will become used to getting them.

habal wrote:the sad reality is Indians are subjected to so many social experiments by those who claim to have 'their best interests at heart' & those who work for their own self-interest at heart. The poor common middle-class Indian has to bear brunt of tender mercies of both groups viz the nationalists & also the swayamsevaks (service to self). Both these groups are claiming to work for India's farmers, middle-class, aam admi. I see signs of a revolution in India if these failed experiments are repeated again. This time round it is going to be total mobocracy, no one leader will be able to control it.

Well you forgot to mention "hindu fundamentalism" in your post this time. You can compensate this imperfection by invoking the "saffron terror" in your next post.

Arun Jaitley's 2017 Union Budget raises a cause for worry

The fine print of the Finance Bill 2017 that lays out details of the 2017-18 Union Budget does not make for pleasant reading.

First, in search and seizure cases, the assessing officer does not have to provide a reason for the operation.

Worse, the officer can search charitable organisations, again without seeking permission from the principal commissioner as was the case earlier.

The fine print in the Finance Bill 2017, which will be tabled in Parliament, has more such incendiary proposals.

For example, one particularly draconian proposed amendment in the I-T Act permits the assessing officer to order attachment of the assessee’s property for six months after obtaining sanction from a senior officer.

Such wide discretionary powers can – and will – beget abuse.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi is instinctively against such abuse that amounts to tax terrorism and defeats the principle of maximum governance, minimum government. His officials in the finance ministry, however, are clearly playing to a different tune and a different conductor.

The prime minister must step in and remove these tax amendments – or accept responsibility for them along with the opprobrium.

Last year’s Union Budget had numerous rollbacks on pension funds, interest rates and EPF withdrawls. The finance ministry hasn’t learnt from those setbacks, which were deeply unpopular with the middle class.

The proposed amendments in the Finance Bill 2017, if enshrined in law, will - like Pranab Mukherjee’s retrospective tax law of 2012 - remain a blot on India’s tax legislation.

habal wrote:Problem can only be studied while going smaller towns and small businesses that just about manage to keep above water month-on-month. For these small businesses and tradesmen in small towns, demonitisation was akin to outbreak of war or economic recession.

Sir, I understand what you say and how you feel about the interactions here. I do have my roots in KL, and visit the place many a times a year. And De.Mo was a topic of discussion many a times, when I catch up with my friends (who actually work in the state). Inputs which I could glean out..

• Every body did get this as a shock, and people did have difficulties in getting liquid cash. A friend who had to pay back his loan (given by me), had to delay the payment. I had made a trip to home two weeks after the De.Mo and had met this chap. He had money to pay back the loan, and also actually asked me to roam around the town and see if there is ANY activity which was stopped by De.Mo. Honestly, I did not see any legitimate business closed down (right from the pea nuts vendor on the road, to the local BEVCO outlet).
• Another friend who was dealing with real estate, confirmed that the market is down; but yet again supported De.Mo considering its long term benefits. He had a few lakhs in Co.Op banks and had to take a hit there (with drawal from those banks were a problem). He also mentioned that his friend, who was into garment sales took a hit. They used to work in "only cash" mode, their accounts was in a mess and they also did not get much customers. That chap actually closed down one of his outlets.
• My own relative who was into farming took a hit, as most of his workers (tappers etc.) generally operated in an "only cash" mode. But he was internet savvy, so could rework his payments in such a way that only in absolutely necessary cases he paid out by cash. Now that was in a village, where he knew the HDFC Bank manager. Money was always ready for him (due to his contacts). So he too recovered in about 4 weeks time.
• And the fact that the liquour outlets really did not see any drop in revenue, gave me a feeling that for the "oppressed and downtrodden" (a favourite jargon in KL), they had money to buy their regular quotas.
• What I could understand that in states like KL, there were way too many businesses which operated in "only cash" mode even when dealing with huge sums. Any body associated with those business (even indirectly), would have felt the pain.
• Last but not the least, I don't feel De.Mo was a 100% success either, as it was just last week Keralites were caught by Bengaluru police smuggling bag loads of cash. The usual suspects, from the usual district/locality, if you can understand what I say . They being "back to business", does not augur well.

I was also keenly tracking the "reporting strategy" adopted by the two most popular Malayalam dailies, and "pimping" would a better profession for these two media houses. The media was heavily biased in the state of KL, perhaps the only reason being the advertisement sources of these media houses. From what I observed, the way the Keralite media came up with the "dooms day prediction", is no way close to what you saw on BRF. The state's finance minister is now just sitting and sulking, and so are some old "story tellers" who suddenly became great "economists".

manjgu wrote:IT notices have started arriving thick and fast..

SHQ mentioned that last week they had a tough time reconciling their account books once again. They had some discrepancies in the amounts reported, and the bank HQ wanted every thing to be re-verified. So checkings and double checkings are happening, big time. Which also gave me a feeling that "all is not lost", and the momentum is still there.

KL Dubey wrote:This is generally true in KL too as much as my experience goes - even small shops usually have no problem making a bill and handing it to you. But if one expects a bill for buying flowers or vegetables from a roadside cart, that may be a bit much....

I tend to agree with you. From what I understand the shop keepers in KL, had already become champions in fooling the Sales Tax people and for them giving a bill was not a big problem. Way back in 1990s one jeweller (who had no clue on computers or how they worked), decided to introduce computer billing at his shop. For a common man then computers never made calculation mistakes. This old man had one requirement to the software vendor. If he presses CAPS LOCK and then makes a bill, the money should go to a different account (or a database table). The chap was just asking for their own manual accounting (using multiple ledgers, account books etc.) in the computerised system as well. For this old prominent jeweller his "functional requirements" were very clear from day one!.

And many people also did not insist on a bill for every single purchase they make. Bills were more commonly used for gold purchase or clothes purchase. One main reason being, many shops had one billing counter to generate the bill and another counter to make the payment (a PAID seal affixed on the bill), and the bill then shown to a small counter where the delivery is made (a DELIVERED seal affixed on the bill). But in stationary shops etc, I have rarely seen any body insisting on a bill.

manjgu wrote:IT notices have started arriving thick and fast.. the CA's have their hands full replying to the notices... anybody with deposits in excess of 5L cash have received notices. A quiz comprising of 4 to 5 questions has to be answered online... 2nd phase people between 2.5L to 5L will get notices... the Big 4 consultancy firms are assisting the govt in sifting the data...

Will any major Nation appoint Indian CA firms to vet their own Tax Payers in such large scale excercise?

5 Lakhs seems like too low a bar. I'm afraid IT dept. might end up catching a lot of small fish while big time wheeler dealers are let go. BJP is working really hard to piss off it's middle class voter base with this tax terrorism.

amitkv wrote:5 Lakhs seems like too low a bar. I'm afraid IT dept. might end up catching a lot of small fish while big time wheeler dealers are let go. BJP is working really hard to piss off it's middle class voter base with this tax terrorism.

In which world does the middle class have five lacs cash sitting at home to be deposited at one shot in one month...

Marten wrote:

amitkv wrote:5 Lakhs seems like too low a bar. I'm afraid IT dept. might end up catching a lot of small fish while big time wheeler dealers are let go. BJP is working really hard to piss off it's middle class voter base with this tax terrorism.

In which world does the middle class have five lacs cash sitting at home to be deposited at one shot in one month...

Exactly.

Please don't confuse reported income and deposit amounts. Being able to deposit lakhs in cash in a month implies a greater income or cash flow. Note that specifically cash deposits were flagged. Not gold or anything else.

While one may have legitimate reasons to hold cash, the larger picture is that the government does not want you holding such large amounts of wealth in cash. The reason is that currency notes are meant to transact value. The cash you're holding under your pillow is a transaction tool that's lying unutilized.

Therefore, to enable others to transact, the government has to print more cash. That has its own share of negative results, from fostering inflation to encouraging black money accumulation. Rather than hold cash for long periods of time, it's better to write oneself a cheque when cash is required.

Has the Govt published any kinds of metrics to give some idea about the efficacy of DeMo?
That will be telling.

5Lakh is a very small amount and many small traders etc keep that in cash for day to day transactions. DeMo will inconvenience these folks the most.

who are these "small traders" keeping 5 lakhs for day to day transaction..

some traders have that...in their name, given to others as advance for something, or chit fund rotation etc..