West Asia News and Discussions

[svinayak]

Fantastic post!
Esp about the survival tactics

[Theo_Fidel]

I don't think Shaardula was claiming that the social evolution we see in India today is superior in any way. It doesn't appear he particularly cares what its quality is. He is pointing out the dangers of trying to arbitrarily move it in a particular direction that for some reason is preferred. We need to deal with the reality we have today.

[shyamd]

Actually no, what I see is that SS is making headlines right now in AP.

SS's ouster from Harvard is, on the face of it, a n attack on him by the American establishment. It weakens considerably your . case that he is a tool of the US against Sonia Gandhi. You may be having inside knowledge that SS meets Obama; but going from that nugget to a CT about SS requires a lot of dot-connecting. There is another theory, maybe CT that Sonia is herself a tool of the US, so is it then necessary for the US to have an uber-tool or backup tool in the form of SS? Anything is possible, but an intelligent mind should know how to evaluate information. Right now, the best thing is to judge people by what they say and do.

All this is OT - so I've replied here

[nachiket]

Towards our defence - we just signed a deal for KSA to pay for growing our military arsenal!

Pray tell what that deal might be.

[shyamd]

^^ You'll hear more about it later in the year

-------------------------
Israel demands nuclear ultimatum for Iran

Israel declared that international talks with Iran on its nuclear programme had failed as it demanded a deadline of "just a few weeks" be handed down to Tehran to scrap its atomic build-up.

Israel says that Tehran has made significant progress towards assembling a nuclear warhead for a Shahab-3 missile, pictured Photo: REUTERS

By Mark Weiss in Jerusalem 8:50PM BST 12 Aug 2012
It emerged that new intelligence shared with Israel by the West indicated that Iran had moved several steps closer to developing a nuclear warhead that could be fitted on the Shahab-3 missile.
According to an unidentified official, new intelligence obtained by Israel, the United States and other Western states shows that Iran's development of a nuclear weapon is progressing far beyond the scope reported by the International Atomic Energy Agency.
Tehran has made significant progress towards assembling a nuclear warhead for a Shahab-3 missile, which has a range of nearly 1,000 miles, putting the whole of Israel, including the Dimona nuclear reactor in the southern Negev desert, within the Islamic republic's range. Danny Ayalon, Israel's deputy foreign minister, called on the Western powers to declare that the negotiations with Iran, conducted by the five permanent members of the UN Security Council plus Germany, had failed.
He called for Iran to be presented with an ultimatum of a "few weeks" to cease its nuclear programme.
Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister, issued a public warning that Tehran must not be allowed to develop a nuclear bomb. "Every threat against the home front is dwarfed by one threat. Iran cannot be allowed to have a nuclear weapon," he told ministers at the start of the weekly cabinet meeting in Jerusalem.

In a further sign that Israel is stepping up preparation for a possible showdown with Iran, the army's home front command sent out thousands of text messages in a test run of a programme to alert people when rocket attacks are launched on specific areas.
The test continues this week when hundreds of thousands of people will receive text messages in Hebrew, Arabic, Russian and English.

[nachiket]

^^ You'll hear more about it later in the year

I highly doubt we will. No country is going to "pay" for our military arsenal. Least of all one which has an extremely cosy relationship with our worst enemy.

[devesh]

I don't think Shaardula was claiming that the social evolution we see in India today is superior in any way. It doesn't appear he particularly cares what its quality is. He is pointing out the dangers of trying to arbitrarily move it in a particular direction that for some reason is preferred. We need to deal with the reality we have today.

present reality has different shades. for you, reality is that everything that was created in 1947 is the best that we Indians can come up with. is it so hard to believe that there might be many who disagree with you? is it also so hard to believe that there will be many who might simply accept this reality b/c they have no choice? is it so hard to believe that given a different direction, they would want to tread that path? I guess this is one of the costs of "keeping head down". no problem. if that is the lesson that has been learned, then time will come to unmask and raise our heads. until then, perhaps there is a necessity of showing only one shade of reality, the one which is most loudly proclaimed as the only one...

[Theo_Fidel]

When it comes to loyalty to nation and constitution no 'moral compass' is allowed. No shades of grey allowed. As citizens we swear loyalty to it, good and bad parts. You will dismantle this nation and its constitution over my dead body. This is not hyperbole. I don't expect you to understand that sort of loyalty.

[shyamd]

I highly doubt we will. No country is going to "pay" for our military arsenal. Least of all one which has an extremely cosy relationship with our worst enemy.

It's a joint fund - wait and see. Already the relationship is proving many skeptics wrong.

[Mahendra]

I think the military arsenal consists of thousands of madrassas churning out wahabi frothing in the mouth kind of jihadi foot soldiers who could be used to start riots in states ruled by the Kangress

In short ar5e-holes with military training

[brihaspati]

One direct fallout of cozy relationships will be increasing confidence of the internal political assertion by Muslim groups - especially the various sunni sects and organizations. This was a consequence we talked about before - that the rashtra will become more restrained in deterring the Sunni activism. This is one - among many - consequences of the "coziness". Start thinking of the slamming down of the Amar Jawan Jyoti image of Mumbai, and you will get the longer term picture.

Apologists for the relationship suppress the wider fallouts.

[devesh]

When it comes to loyalty to nation and constitution no 'moral compass' is allowed. No shades of grey allowed. As citizens we swear loyalty to it, good and bad parts. You will dismantle this nation and its constitution over my dead body. This is not hyperbole. I don't expect you to understand that sort of loyalty.

let's not get melodramatic here. I do understand that kind of loyalty. when you perceive something as in the best interests of yourself and your kith and ken, you will fight for it. but do understand that the sentiment is not shared by all. so, the other side will be equally insistent, and prepared to issue threats like "over my dead body". either way, I don't think this discussion is going anywhere. I've tried to show that the institutional architecture of certain ideologies needs to be tackled, and you've descended into thinly veiled threats.

[KLNMurthy]

When it comes to loyalty to nation and constitution no 'moral compass' is allowed. No shades of grey allowed. As citizens we swear loyalty to it, good and bad parts. You will dismantle this nation and its constitution over my dead body. This is not hyperbole. I don't expect you to understand that sort of loyalty.

That seems extreme and rigid. So there is no such thing as dharma but only nation and constitution? Should a citizen of TSP or nazi Germany also take the same stand about "my country (and constitution), no right or wrong?"

[RamaY]

When it comes to loyalty to nation and constitution no 'moral compass' is allowed. No shades of grey allowed. As citizens we swear loyalty to it, good and bad parts. You will dismantle this nation and its constitution over my dead body. This is not hyperbole. I don't expect you to understand that sort of loyalty.

Which constitution? The one that changed 115 times in the past 60 years? What is the rule that it cannot be changed for another 786 times?

[shaardula]

(1) When you are talking of a past - that you yourself are not so sure of as in grandmother's tales - how can you claim that this "openness" was or was not there in the past? how can you be so sure that the past relied more on gurus? That same past that is unreliable, mythic and reconstructed?

Bji, I think this is the best period mankind has had in terms of direct individual access to information and knowledge. As always most useful information is still generated by "gurus", but the access to such knowledge is more universal now, for example, now you dont have to depend on the traveling monk or the trader or the soldier for ideas from across the hills. Also, for a bulk of the new information and knowledge, the stress is on the semantics rather than the sanctity attached to the form or the syntax of I&K. Because of this, the average person has direct exposure to a wide and varied of I&K sources. Information disparity has always been a big problem throughout. People in Europe had to pay for it in blood for the Bible to be translated in their native tongues. We thankfully have not had to endure such orthodoxy. For we have had uber-localized desha-kaala-sandharbha (space-time-context) versions of our texts. But the obvious lesson of this history of ours is that, while they may all touch upon the same historical events, narratives have no absolutes. for example, in the struggles between bali and vaamana, raama and vaali, raama and seetha, bheema and duryodhana, etc., who is on the side of dharma, depends on whom you ask. i grew up in a context where all of these questions, amongst other local questions, were all in play. Based on my experiences living around Hindu orthodoxy, I believe, there is a certain amount of openness and questioning that comes naturally to Hindus. There are several blind spots to us, but there is also a questioning side to us.

(2) How can you be sure that what you are being exposed to now, or what seems to have been a natural evolution - was inevitable or desirable? how does that evolution necessarily enrich you? To decide you need to have a fixed set of values that can compare both the past as well as the present. Thus to eulogize this social/political evolution as it is represented - you have to stand on the crutch of a fixed scale of values - something that does not change with time. Does it not inherently contradict the theory of complete "openness" to all possible changes? At least your values are not changing then! Can you use values that remain constant over mythic/reconstructed periods and evolutionarily "progressive" periods?

sure bji. invariant metrics etc. i understand, based on experience in a different context, but i can still appreciate the context in which you apply them. As I've grown old i have realized that it is a very very difficult problem and requires deep mental faculties to grapple with, which is beyond my pay-grade.

my main thematic point is this: evolution of mankind continues despite a model for human dynamics and metrics to quantify the variables in these models, and not because of these models. sure the vishnu sharmans, vyasa theerthas of this world did intervene, but the country and its people are bigger and more dynamic than the models of even these men. i would assume that these men were a consequence of the latter, rather than the latter being a consequence of interventions by these men.
any rational person would alter his models to better describe the data, rather than alter the data, even with its imperfections, to fit a model.

whether we like it or not we live in a modern world. there are certain universals of this modern world that people world over can and do relate to, and use for their own profit. Mainly because these are condensed summaries of human experience of people from different thoughts world over. health outcomes for children and women, literacy, non-discrimination and equality in social spheres, free speech, freedom to dissent, travel and know, just-rational desha-kaala-sandharbha relevant law systems, impartial enforcement of these laws etc etc...

From what I know, these are not metrics that were born yesterday. These have been the eternal goals of all mankind for ever. They have been invariant in our own history. From ashtavakra, to several saankhyavaadins, chaaruvaadins, the baudhas & jainas, to the more protestant sharaNas, sikhs, to later day shree narayana, and Ambedkarvaadins, etc... all have fought for these ideals.

We are right now seeing the best period for all these ideals. Alot of the good things that we see now, are a consequence of living in the modern world, but they dont follow immediately. These advantages stem from making active fully aware choices to join the modern world. These are not te default outcomes of living in this age. We have several examples of multiple societies, even within India, to the contrary. As a conservative, i would rather rely on measurables, rather than be liberally swayed by the shallow rhetoric of a self proclaimed isha of the gods, or the isha of the monks.

you are the bruhaspathi, with known demonstrated depth, you tell me how did we end up having various people, over the ages, being dissatisfied with the status-quo.

[RamaY]

One direct fallout of cozy relationships will be increasing confidence of the internal political assertion by Muslim groups - especially the various sunni sects and organizations. This was a consequence we talked about before - that the rashtra will become more restrained in deterring the Sunni activism. This is one - among many - consequences of the "coziness". Start thinking of the slamming down of the Amar Jawan Jyoti image of Mumbai, and you will get the longer term picture.

Apologists for the relationship suppress the wider fallouts.

Bji,

We get to this point ever 3-4 months on this and some other threads.

The more GoI cozies up with the Islamic and Christian nations without any amendments to their scriptures, the bold the internal believers get in undermining Indian Interests. We have seen this in Kerala Marine shootings issue when it comes to Christian secular nations and now we are seeing the Mumbai drama w.r.t Islamic nations.

What do we call the people who continue to do the same thing while expecting different results?

[Theo_Fidel]

Devesh,

Nothing melodramatic boss. Folks down here talk like that all the time. Almost everyone has an uncle or cousin in military and there is a long record of soldiers lost defending India. This is simply not open for discussion down here. I suggest you don't try to negotiate the Indian Republic down here if you value your life, and this is a very serious suggestion.

Yes, it very much is my country, right or wrong around here. I hope you do realize that 90% of my community remains Hindu. It was this way before India was constituted and it will be this way long after you and I are gone. This sort of airy-fairy discussion only happens in Ivory tower circles.

I don't think best interest has anything to do with it. Entire villages would not have been wiped out fighting the British over it. In the 18 generations of family tree fully documented, entire branches are empty with a simple clarification of Arrested, status unknown. If anything the British 'collaborators' had a much better time and own extensive property to this day. Such suited booted types now issue much nasty comments over the Aruval culture of us country bumpkins as compared to their TFTA convent educated refinement. Some of us still remember where they were when the country needed them. Much property was confiscated by the British around here. There is a reason the Kattabomman and Marthandam families live in penury these days.

[shaardula]

perhaps bji, perhaps our inability to tackle "sunni" extremism, stems from our inability to fully fall behind our own constitution. a dispassionate put down of all forms of irrationalism, and in-empiricism is perhaps is what is needed? ad-hoc pandering and hoisting of arbitrary obscurantist alternatives is perhaps not the way to go?

there is a logical, systematic, just argument in our constitution, that many of us can fall behind. why appeal to the adharmic baser instincts of atavistic men, when you dont have to?

[johneeG]

Evolution means suitable changes(for better or worse) to adapt and survive.

Undoing the past changes is also part of 'Evolution'. For example: If I travel from India to America, my wardrobe would change accordingly. Lets say from cotton to woolen. But, when I return to India, I would undo the past changes and return to cotton. To say that I 'should not discard Evolution' and therefore stick with woolen in Indian summer would be height of foolishness.

In fact, 'discarding evolution' means 'to stop changing'. And as we all know, 'change' can involve undoing past changes.

So, whatever changes were adopted in the past, as a process of 'Evolution', can all be reversed(or undone), in the process of further 'Evolution'.

A position that truly 'discards Evolution' is the one that asserts that 'we should accept the reality of present' and not make any efforts to change it. To assert that the present form of Nation or Constitution cannot be changed(or will not change) is 'discarding Evolution'.

'Hyperboles are exaggerations to create emphasis or effect'. It is ironical that those who use phrases like 'over my dead body' should talk of hyperbole.

Constitution was created about 2 years after Aug 15th 1947. Until that time, India was governed according to some other document. It is part Nation's 'evolution' that we changed from that document to our present Constitution. So, that is one thing to keep in mind. Next, constitution is open to change and open to interpretation. Constitution is not some religious book which requires blind faith. It is a set of rules that have been created for Indians BY INDIANS. So, it is given that the Constitution will be changed to reflect the needs and desires of people(in a proper democratic republic, that is exactly what should happen).

In fact, Constitution was changed many times. For example, the term 'secular' was not part of Preamble of Constitution until Indra Gandhi inserted it into it. (Of course, it was done during emergency, so it does not really represent the will of people).

Past amendments and interpretations can be changed by new amendments and interpretations. It is all part of 'Evolution'. Lets not 'discard evolution'...

[Theo_Fidel]

RamaY,

Folks here seem to lack even the most basic lesson in civics. Amending a constitution has absolutely zero to do with loyalty to it.

The oddest thing about India is that the lower down, more horrifically treated and mistreated you are by society, the more loyal folks are to the constitution. Even the meanest villager instinctively knows that the only thing protecting him is the constitution.

I hate to say this but folks need to see how dharma rule worked in reality. The court records still exist BTW at the Madurai registrar office.

[ramana]

ShyamD, The key is the Iranian Shahab-3 missile's features. Does it have something of the Iskaknder's payload section? If it does then a big threshold has been crossed.
Try to probe it.

[shaardula]

T-
my guess is that, many of the poster's here live in a de-contextualized fantasy world, where the other is the removed other, and are looking for a cheap excuse to slap their thighs and bump their chests. My ultra-orthodox family has lived a better part of a century in a mixed housing setup in one of the most communally sensitive areas in all of the country. Based on my own experiences, i cannot even relate to any of the hypothesis thrown around here.

More than that, what worries is me is that with more freedom and greater access to knowledge we have turned into these ingrateful parasites, who dont even know what makes the country work.

[shaardula]

and that perhaps is the reason some of the folks here would like to piss on it. if i ever were an un-represented minority in any society, i would like a legalsystem that recognizes my existence and an executive that is willing to bear its full power might behind me.

[shaardula]

Hi johneeG,

i dont know what phantoms bother you, or what chips you carry, but evolution of our society is not anyone of us wished for or dreamed of. it simply is. it is a matter of fact. the rest of the country has already learnt to deal with it and moved on. if there is any power to my praying, i pray that you too catch up. we all have basic skills in comprehension and can put together the import of a couple inferences made in english.

[Lilo]

About the C ,
India was born a Secular Republic in 1950 itself - in no uncertain terms. Articles 14 (equality and equal protection before law) ,15-16 (non discrimination), Articles 25,26,28 (religious rights) all by themselves more than satisfise the western definition of secularism. It is not IG who suddenly made our C secular by inserting Secular in preamble.

However, the need of the hour is to replace the poorly thoughtout western secularism incorporated in our C with the more rooted Indian notion of secularism - the kind which accepted the parsis, jews etc escaping persecution with open arms but never tried to integrate them by converting them to the native faiths (in other words assimilate them) and allowed them to flourish over a millenium as a distinct culture. Same is the case with Syrian Christians , and initially even the arap merchants heralding Islam onto our shores. But now after several centuries of experiencing negative enrichment by virulent Islamic strains - there is nothing adharmic ( aka non-secular (in Indian sense)) in demanding that the religious ideologies which cannot accept the ancient ethos of our land (i.e mutual respect (not just "tolerance") resulting in peaceful coexistence) to reform or be prepared to endure the "tyranny of majority" by dharmic religions (reverse Jaziya anyone ?) .

Regarding C and the question of its rigidity - a wellknown quote...

Pundit Nehru expressed in the Constituent Assembly, "While we want the Constitution to be as solid and permanent as we can make it, there is no permanence in Constitution. There should be certain flexibility. If you make anything rigid and permanent, you stop the nation’s growth, the growth of a living, vital organic people."

[ramana]

Folks I dont understand how and why we end up discussing India in every thread!

Please stop as its not germane/OT to this thread.

Thanks, ramana

[devesh]

Devesh,

Nothing melodramatic boss. Folks down here talk like that all the time. Almost everyone has an uncle or cousin in military and there is a long record of soldiers lost defending India. This is simply not open for discussion down here. I suggest you don't try to negotiate the Indian Republic down here if you value your life, and this is a very serious suggestion.

Yes, it very much is my country, right or wrong around here. I hope you do realize that 90% of my community remains Hindu. It was this way before India was constituted and it will be this way long after you and I are gone. This sort of airy-fairy discussion only happens in Ivory tower circles.

I don't think best interest has anything to do with it. Entire villages would not have been wiped out fighting the British over it. In the 18 generations of family tree fully documented, entire branches are empty with a simple clarification of Arrested, status unknown. If anything the British 'collaborators' had a much better time and own extensive property to this day. Such suited booted types now issue much nasty comments over the Aruval culture of us country bumpkins as compared to their TFTA convent educated refinement. Some of us still remember where they were when the country needed them. Much property was confiscated by the British around here. There is a reason the Kattabomman and Marthandam families live in penury these days.

I have tried not to descend into verbal boasting and issuing violent threats. I am reporting your post for the same. let the mods do what they feel is necessary. even if nothing is done, I'm on the record by reporting your post. I always find that only those who cannot put up a convincing argument end up making violent threats.

actually, no, such discussions are not confined to ivory tower circles. there is an increasing amount of interest in these things from newly "rising" demographics. you can pretend, or perhaps hope, that it doesn't exist outside the minds of "paranoid Hindus fascists", and that is absolutely fine. but please save us the indignant melodrama.

once again, how is all that in the last para relevant to this discussion. why is it so hard to understand that your experience in the deep south, mostly buffeted from long Islamic rule, will apply to rest of India? Even among Christians, your experience is only one shade, please do try to understand that. also, even the regional distance from the main Islamic centers is not a valid excuse, b/c right next to you is Kerala, and even in recent history around independence time, we all know the events that happened there. do you think those conditions have simply ceased to exist in the last few decades? do you think the proselytizing religions don't have a predatory instinct to destroy the indigenous and replace with the desert theologies? are you so blind to the happenings all around you, from Kerala to Andhra? do you think we don't have anything better to do if we weren't genuinely scared for our culture?

[shaardula]

lilo, you are talking about a covenant of the contemporaries. while many here are looking for an excuse to slap their thighs.

[nachiket]

Doesn't the OT thread exist anymore? Can you guys please take the Constitution discussion there?

[devesh]

parasitic ingrates are we? slapping our thighs? are the mods sleeping? this is beyond anything that I've yet witnessed on BRF. posters have been warned for much less....and now we are branded parasitic ingrates...and some are issuing violent threats!

[pentaiah]

The MiG 23 is a swing wing bomber ground attack air craft and notoriously unreliable
In kargil war our own pilot Nachiketa had to bail out.

The Syrians say mechanical problem bu,t aircraft is on fire it could well have been shot or the pilot caught his own flare and is in flames?

[pentaiah]

Thanks ramana ji please don't cut slack to people who bring in India into every issue in the world.
If there is any mention of India it should be logically connected to the thread main purpose and intent.

The posters of late have become very strident in defying the admins.
Even humor is lacking at least to laugh after reading.

People of inconsequence are taking too much of India's burden and too seriously about themselves.

[johneeG]

Shaardula,
my reply to your post addressed to me here.

[Theo_Fidel]

Devesh,

OT thread if you feel like it.

[ShauryaT]

Avoid this West Asia drama By Bharat Karnad

West Asia is a hornet’s nest. Russia and China are doing the heavy lifting of vetoing UN resolutions targeting Syria. It is best for India, in the circumstances, to abstain on all UN votes relating remotely to West Asia and otherwise distance itself, foreign policy-wise, from the unfolding drama in those parts. There is no other way of minimising the adverse fallout on the law and order situation in this country when the situation blows up. Union home minister Sushil Kumar Shinde better anticipate trouble, alert the state intelligence agencies, order strict policing, and take pre-emptive measures now, unless he wants again to be in the dark when crisis hits.

[ramana]

Link above^^^^

....
The fact that the Arab League has been turned by Saudi Arabia into an essentially Sunni Muslim platform is not a surprise — oil and money speak. Riyadh’s using it to oust Shia governments in the region is a new development. The Saud family fears both physical endangerment and the possibility of Tehran and Damascus instigating a Saudi Shia rebellion. Were a separate Shia homeland within Saudi Arabia to be carved out, Riyadh will lose most sources of its oil found in the Nejd and other provinces populated by Shias. That this is also, quite literally, a fight to the death was brought home to the Sauds with the killing on July 23 of Bandar bin Sultan — former ambassador in Washington and close to the US government — by a bomb that exploded in the offices of the General Intelligence Agency he headed. If Bandar couldn’t be protected, no one in the Saud family is safe. It explains the Saudi vehemence in dealing with Iran and Assad.

Or just, may be, terrorism that the Sauds have spawned for decades is coming home to roost. So far Riyadh escaped the winds of Islamic extremism because it had managed to direct the extremist-Wahabbist impulses outward. No regime has been more responsible for spreading terror world-wide than the Sauds. This has been done through the Islamic charities that channel funds, especially to trusts in South Asia. The result is a profusion of Hafiz Saeeds frothing at their mouths and the various Lashkars active in Pakistan. In India, Saudi monies have incubated communalism by polarising previously peaceful societies, such as in Kerala, for instance, and funded the building of a series of new mosques in India’s terai region to propagate Wahabbist beliefs, as the Intelligence Bureau has been reporting to government. For Saudi Arabia to blame Bashar for the violence in Syria then is a bit rich. For India to associate itself in any way with Saudi moves is to get sucked inexorably into the big Sunni-Shia conflagration in the making. The timid Congress-coalition government has yet to issue a demarche to Riyadh to cease and desist on the Wahabbist funding front or even to implement some basic policing — like monitoring just how and where the Saudi and Gulf funds go to do what.

Consider the larger picture. Four Russian warships, presumably laden with military hardware and stores, have docked at the Tartarus naval base on the Mediterranean in northern Syria that Damascus has provided for Russian naval use. A Chinese missile destroyer has entered the Mediterranean ostensibly for naval exercises with Russian and Syrian warships off Syria’s coast. With Russia and China committing military support for the Assad regime, it is even less likely Bashar will bow to external pressure. With US President Barack Obama deciding overtly to arm the Sunni rebels and making it Washington’s business to oust Assad, the fat may be on fire because Russian President Vladimir Putin is determined to restore Russia’s lost status and stand up to the United States. Syria is the regional hotspot where Russia may decide to eye-ball America.

Worse, Turkey is being drawn into the fray. With Turkish Alawites sympathetic to Syria and insurgent Turkish Kurds likely to join with the opportunistic Syrian Kurds in seeking independence, a largely Sunni Turkey may get together with the US and the Sauds, though this will not restore the status quo ante that would, other than Bashar, benefit it the most. With the Battle for Aleppo developing into a decisive encounter and Aleppo bordering Turkey, American material assistance is bound overland to transit through this Sunni majority town, seriously compromising Ankara.

West Asia is a hornet’s nest. Russia and China are doing the heavy lifting of vetoing UN resolutions targeting Syria. It is best for India, in the circumstances, to abstain on all UN votes relating remotely to West Asia and otherwise distance itself, foreign policy-wise, from the unfolding drama in those parts. There is no other way of minimising the adverse fallout on the law and order situation in this country when the situation blows up. Union home minister Sushil Kumar Shinde better anticipate trouble, alert the state intelligence agencies, order strict policing, and take pre-emptive measures now, unless he wants again to be in the dark when crisis hits.

....

At same time can watch to see the situation develop as a new Iraq is being formed.

[shyamd]

ShyamD, The key is the Iranian Shahab-3 missile's features. Does it have something of the Iskaknder's payload section? If it does then a big threshold has been crossed.
Try to probe it.

Saar, I am not an engineer and dont understand such things. Can a missile guru help?

[pentaiah]

[youtube]]v=F5zCzPzCiCE&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/youtube]

Iskander from Russia?

Per wiki

The Shahab-3B differs from the basic production variant. It has improvements to its guidance system and warhead, a few small changes on the missile body, and a new re-entry vehicle whose terminal guidance system and rocket-nozzle steering method are completely different from the Shahab-3A's spin-stabilized re-entry vehicle.
The new re-entry vehicle uses a triconic aeroshell geometry (or 'baby bottle' design) which improves the overall lift to drag ratio for the re-entry vehicle. This allows greater range maneuverability which can result in better precision. The triconic design also reduces the overall size of the warhead from an estimated 1 metric ton (2,200 lb) to 700 kg (1,500 lb).
The rocket-nozzle control system allows the missile to change its trajectory several times during re-entry and even terminal phase, effectively preventing pre-calculated intercept points of radar systems - which is a method nearly all ABM systems use these days. As a high-speed ballistic missile and pre-mission fueling capability, the Shahab-3 has an extremely short launch/impact time ratio. This means that the INS/gyroscope guidance would also remain relatively accurate until impact (important, given the fact that the gyroscopes tend to lose accuracy with longer flights). The CEP is estimated to be at 30–50 metres (98–160 ft) or less.[9] However, the accuracy of the missile is largely speculative and cannot be confidently predicted for wartime situations.[10]
These improvements would greatly increase the Shahab-3B's survivability against ABM systems such as Israel's Arrow 2 missile as well as being used for precision attacks against high value targets such as command, control and communications centres.

[brihaspati]

What if the Saudi-Sunni juggernaut slows down to a grinding halt in Syria? What if it gets to be a stalemate? What then? Is it not the beginning of the end for the Saudis? The west will sponsor a regime change and dump the Saudi royals as easily as it dumped the Shah and facilitated the airlifting of an exiled theologian from France.

The Syrian drama is yet to be played out fully. With or without Assad, the country is getting to be split up. One way or the other Kurdistan is going to be carved out.

[Pranav]

What if the Saudi-Sunni juggernaut slows down to a grinding halt in Syria? What if it gets to be a stalemate? What then? Is it not the beginning of the end for the Saudis? The west will sponsor a regime change and dump the Saudi royals as easily as it dumped the Shah and facilitated the airlifting of an exiled theologian from France.

The Syrian drama is yet to be played out fully. With or without Assad, the country is getting to be split up. One way or the other Kurdistan is going to be carved out.

Western media [finally] is forced to admit that the mercenaries have very limited support - http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 1280.story

Syria could be an inflexion point - not just for the Saudis, but also for the elites that have dominated the west (and through the west, many other parts of the world) for the past several centuries. Particularly if the financial meltdown continues and people start using alternate currencies for international trade.