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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 10:17
by chaanakya
chanakyaa wrote:
...
It is learnt that the Indians are seized of the fact that some US embassy officials may have misused diplomatic privileges in booking tickets for the husband and children of Richard, and that the move could amount to contempt of court as the Richard family was facing a court case when they left India.

..
Does this mean the outstanding court case in India (by its nature) prevented them from traveling abroad?
Not necessarily unless Court has directed so. But if court issues summons to attend and they fail to attend then they would become absconders and whoever helped in absconding them would be equally liable for cognizable offense.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 10:24
by chaanakya
Singha wrote:can india put out a red corner interpol notice for SR's husband and for SR herself as absconding people ?
Yes, but need to complete certain formalities and court procedure in respect of Philip. In case of SR it can be done even now as arrest warrant is already out.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 10:30
by Jarita
chaanakya wrote:
Singha wrote:can india put out a red corner interpol notice for SR's husband and for SR herself as absconding people ?
Yes, but need to complete certain formalities and court procedure in respect of Philip. In case of SR it can be done even now as arrest warrant is already out.

We will just look like bullies and nothing else. DK and her fathers court cases could be construed as bullying because they could.
We should not focus on small fry like SR and Philip. They are just middle class folks wanting to better their lot and there are many in India who would like that.
The real issue is US sprinting people away which has to be addressed.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 10:47
by Yagnasri
Unfortunately liberals in US played a large part in destruction of family structure and replaced it with welfare state and ngo rubbish. This effected the poor sections like blacks very badly. Now entire society of blacks barring very few are going down hill and fully destroyed households with fatherless children, unwed mothers, drugs, crime etc. Liberals continue to " help" blacks even now.

The minimum wage welfare liberals lobby similarly destroyed manufacturing in U.S. Obama is the community organizer with the same background. Gang surrounding him are also like that. To expect anything with this regimen is foolish.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 10:48
by Vayutuvan
JohneeG, let me just say that you don't really get the thrust of what I wrote. I will leave it at that.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 11:00
by Jarita
The best move for India is one which yields the highest benefit. Even if we have to temporarily retreat it is worth it if the net benefit from this situation is good.
Indian patriots have to extract value out of this episode. That is the best revenge. What is the value and what is the timeframe is not a topic for this thread.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 11:01
by chaanakya
Jarita wrote: . They are just middle class folks wanting to better their lot .
I don't think they are just that. US does not strain diplomatic relations just like that. This is tell tale sign of sleeper cell/spies in situ.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 11:02
by Jarita
chaanakya wrote:
Jarita wrote: . They are just middle class folks wanting to better their lot .
I don't think they are just that. US does not strain diplomatic relations just like that. This is tell tale sign of sleeper cell/spies in situ.

Maybe they are symbolic just as the US offering asylum to the Punjab terrorists was. That was no different. I dont want us to look in the wrong places and miss the big picture.
Some incidents are relevant because they could have a domino effect. What role will these dominos play?

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 11:06
by habal
Theo_Fidel wrote:The down side of course is wait lists for visa/travel documents will increase even further. The waitlist at Chennai consulate was quite incredibly a few years ago. Waiting In line overnight was nothing. Not sure how it is now.
GoI will construct public urinals & toilets besides the consulate for those waiting overnight. Let the start for urban hygiene start from right besides US consulates in all metros.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 11:07
by chaanakya
Jarita wrote:

Maybe they are symbolic just as the US offering asylum to the Punjab terrorists was. That was no different. I dont want us to look in the wrong places and miss the big picture
And the Big Picture is?? :-?

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 11:37
by SSridhar
Jarita wrote:
chaanakya wrote:Yes, but need to complete certain formalities and court procedure in respect of Philip. In case of SR it can be done even now as arrest warrant is already out.
We will just look like bullies and nothing else. DK and her fathers court cases could be construed as bullying because they could.
We should not focus on small fry like SR and Philip. They are just middle class folks wanting to better their lot and there are many in India who would like that.
The real issue is US sprinting people away which has to be addressed.
Jarita, I partially agree with you. That's on the 'real issue' side of what you say. But, I do not think we will appear bullies in the case of SR and her family. The Indian court case precedes the US actions by several months, for one. She has abused the government-issued passport, for another. India can never look like a bully in comparison to the US. Also, without apprehending SR and her family which was spirited away from India illegally, and bringing them back to India to stand trial, the Indian case would not proceed further and the American case against DK could.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 11:38
by Jarita
chaanakya wrote:
Jarita wrote:

Maybe they are symbolic just as the US offering asylum to the Punjab terrorists was. That was no different. I dont want us to look in the wrong places and miss the big picture
And the Big Picture is?? :-?

Just a possibility but what historical precedence is there across the world of such incidents leading to the creation of faultlines.
There have been multiple instances of labor disparity and atrocity cases on embassy personnel. 3 is not a coincidence. Something is not right. It is almost as if a reaction was being provoked but it fizzled out. In Dks instance her caste made the reaction public. Was that the objective?
The key question is how does it impact India? The US has been the heartland of the various faultlines in Indian - Dalit faultline is their creation. Is this another one?
It just needs a figurehead and the spin machine to create something. Perhaps they will not succeed but the fact is that there is a continuous effort to leverage numerous faultlines in India with the hope that something will stick. The barrage of bullets never stops (AAP is one such exercise).
Imagine AAP+labor disparity etc. How dangerous for the nation?
Simultaneously there have been a lot of write ups about slavery in India recently. Is this a build up?

If that is the intention, Indias reactions so far are just superficial and meant to calm factions within India. The only real counter reaction is to create a counter domino effect but will our sold outs do that?

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 11:38
by Yagnasri
Uncle decided that India is an enemy nation. At least the present leftist, jihadists loving regimen of uncle decided. That is the basic truth. Now we need to take further steps from there.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 11:39
by Jarita
SSridhar wrote:
Jarita wrote: We will just look like bullies and nothing else. DK and her fathers court cases could be construed as bullying because they could.
We should not focus on small fry like SR and Philip. They are just middle class folks wanting to better their lot and there are many in India who would like that.
The real issue is US sprinting people away which has to be addressed.
Jarita, I partially agree with you. That's on the 'real issue' side of what you say. But, I do not think we will appear bullies in the case of SR and her family. The Indian court case precedes the US actions by several months, for one. She has abused the government-issued passport, for another. India can never look like a bully in comparison to the US. Also, without apprehending SR and her family which was spirited away from India illegally, and bringing them back to India to stand trial, the Indian case would not proceed further and the American case against DK could.

It is not about cases but about consequences. Do you think the masses will look at the logical sequence of cases? People have a visceral reaction to this sort of a thing.
Don't focus on the individuals. It could be Sangeeta, Suneeta, Geeta, you name it.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 11:48
by ashish raval
Now that immunity cards for us embassy guys are gone, I would like them to be subjected to 'random' search involving frisking and sitting in waiting for at least 3-4 hours. :twisted:

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 11:57
by Altair
DK had Iranian friends from the days in the Iranian desk 10 years ago. Those Iranian friends are in DC.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 12:05
by Arjun
Jarita wrote:It is not about cases but about consequences. Do you think the masses will look at the logical sequence of cases? People have a visceral reaction to this sort of a thing.
Don't focus on the individuals. It could be Sangeeta, Suneeta, Geeta, you name it.
If issuing a red-corner notice is part of the SOP under Indian Law for accused who have absconded - obviously the Indian government should go ahead and do it. Morover this conveys the explicit message that IF the US wants to follow 'due process' under American law India will do the same for Indian law.

Much better than the mutual tit-for-tat would of course be for the governments to agree things out under the Vienna convention - but looks like it would take a few more knocks from India before the Americans see sense.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 12:21
by Altair
Aakash Singh Rathore developed an interest in wines while teaching and writing his doctoral dissertation in Belgium in the early 2000s, after he which he also acquired his oenology qualifications from the University of Provence. It was around that time he met Devyani Khobragade, who was the studying German at the Goethe Institute in Berlin ahead of her posting there as a diplomat.

Soon after, he visited India's wine country in her home state Maharashtra and in Karnataka, spending long months at vineyards and wineries in and around Nashik, Pune, and Bangalore, the result of which was the first authoritative "Complete Indian Wine Guide" published in 2006. He has also served the Indian Government as an advisor to the Indian Grape Board.

Devyani's New York posting was in part propelled by his US roots — he was born in the US and his interest in wines originates from a small, family-owned winery in Michigan. He is currently said to be working towards a new course on the "Philosophy of Wine" being introduced into the University of Pennsylvania curriculum, where he has been teaching for the past year, shutting between New York City and Philadelphia.

Rathore was also helping India's ministry of agriculture and the Indian wine industry popularize its wines in the US. Among his recent research topics were wines served in the Mughal era, an inquiry that took him to Afghanistan, with a separate trip to Iran that was in the works to study wines from the Persian culture

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 12:26
by chaanakya
Devyani Khobragade row: rumblings in US Congress over lowered security in Delhi embassy
Yashwant Raj, Hindustan Times Washington , December 25, 2013
First Published: 11:43 IST(25/12/2013) | Last Updated: 12:15 IST(25/12/2013)


The US Congress has not spoken yet on the current impasse with India over the arrest of Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade, but it is said to be concerned, especially, with the reduced security at the American embassy in New Delhi.
....
.....
"We can understand the anger and the other measures," said a senior congressional aide on condition of anonymity, "but removing the barriers has raised security concerns."

Those concerns feed on the attack on its mission in Libya's Benghazi in 2012, which claimed the lives of four of its diplomats including ambassador J Christopher Stevens. ( being morons and Low IQ they would not be able to differentiate between India and Libya)

The White House and the state department have already talked about the issue.

With the exception of a statement by Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, who condemned the way Khobragade was treated, there hasn't been much of a reaction on the Hill yet.

.......Congress has been quiet.

But don't be fooled by the silence, warned an aide and said that it's mostly because of the holidays.

If the issue was still around, when lawmakers return in January, expect trouble specially if the barriers are not back by then.

"Expect statements or resolutions," a congressional source said, adding, "even hearings."

And pressure may be ratcheted up on other issues such as Iran and trade which is a hot-button issue.

Many lawmakers had signed joint letters and appeals earlier in the year asking the administration to pressure India on its alleged discriminatory trade practices.

Some of them are closely watching India's purchase of crude oil from Iran and its continued imports, though severely curtailed, keep popping up at hearings and in statements.

India enjoys bipartisan support on the Hill no doubt, but the security of the US embassy and the diplomats posted there is an extremely sensitive issue with lawmakers.

"An incident like that at the embassy in Delhi has the potential of seriously harming relations," a source said.
As if it has not been damaged by them already. Idiots. :twisted:

Of all the retaliatory actions taken by India, removal of the security barriers has had the US worried most.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 12:42
by Anindya
India should be articulating, how supply of arms and funds to pakistan, facilitates terrorist attacks on India. This is a war of attrition and will not be won, simply by huddling on the sidelines.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 13:05
by rajanb
Anindya wrote:India should be articulating, how supply of arms and funds to pakistan, facilitates terrorist attacks on India. This is a war of attrition and will not be won, simply by huddling on the sidelines.
1) What about the farce of the 26/11 case in New York?

2) Our request for handing over Headley?

3) the Blood Telegram?

4) Paki Nuclear Proliferation

And the list goes on till 1965, with the use of American supplied equipment in the 1965 war where we were given assurances.

And the list goes on and on.

A guy like Narasimha Rao or an Indira Gandhi would have $crewed them.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 13:15
by chaanakya
Devyani Khobragade, MD - AAPI Women Physicians Symposium 2013

Well...



Eye on South Asia Episode 85 Part 3 of 3 Devayani Talking about Pakistan and Bus to Muzaffarabad Aman ki Tamasha


Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 13:25
by SSridhar
Arjun wrote: If issuing a red-corner notice is part of the SOP under Indian Law for accused who have absconded - obviously the Indian government should go ahead and do it. Morover this conveys the explicit message that IF the US wants to follow 'due process' under American law India will do the same for Indian law.
When India knows where the accused have gone and when the 'receiving country' also accepts that they are with them, then India must exercise its options under a mutual legal assistance treaty (MLAT), if any with the 'receiving state'. We do have one with the US. This should result in extradition of Sangeetha Richard, held illegally by the US. If US refuses to accept this Indian request then the next step would be to get a RCN issued by Interpol. We are here focussing on a well established and agreed to process rather than on a tit-for-tat or individuals. The Indian judiciary does not and cannot link up DK's case in the US (for violating US laws) and SR's case of deserting and absconding etc. Such a linkage, even if it were to be true, is in the minds of others, not the court.
Much better than the mutual tit-for-tat would of course be for the governments to agree things out under the Vienna convention - but looks like it would take a few more knocks from India before the Americans see sense.
That 's indeed the nub of the problem, not US laws or DK's purported fraudulent behaviour etc. The nub of the problem is the US refusal to accept that Vienna conventions allow certain things. So, the question of sorting this out under the rubric of Vienna Conventions, the best course of action, is dim because if the US had abided by the conventions, the case would not have arisen in the first place.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 13:45
by Arjun
The only alternatives to the Vienna Conventions are (a) total anarchy with every country going after other country's diplomats under any pretext or (b) one particular country's laws holding sway. Looks like the Americans are keen to push a 'Pax Americana' on the entire world.

Wonder who's going to bell this (low-IQ) cat wearing an 'Uncle Sam' duncecap !

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 14:00
by JE Menon
>>"Expect statements or resolutions," a congressional source said, adding, "even hearings."

Please....

It's very simple. Mistakes were made by the US embassy in New Delhi and by the State Department bureaucracy as well as NY authorities. Apologise. Roll back to the extent possible - the strip search etc cannot be undone obviously.

If security is now a concern reduce your embassy staff or pull them out entirely. No issues.

Come back for a proper relationship when ready. Meanwhile we will manage.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 14:02
by kenop
IMHO, the mole/spy angle is unsustainable.
Had this been true, a court case or arrest would not have taken place. On top of that the Richard family would have been flown out much earlier (perhaps just after SR's deserted her post). I am inclined to believe it to be SR's gaming of the visa system ably assisted by the fellow church members and the ever ready professional liars.
Potential urge for the SD to "teach a lesson to the IFS/India" too does not looks attractive to me. There is enough motivation in the above mentioned combination to move things. The SD just seems to have benefitted from the emergent situation. Had they been actively looking for a snub (not that they would not want to), earlier events would have provided proof. Llike it happens in the pureland, the ISI is aways on the tails of Indian diplomats/staff and needle them quite openly. Of course the pure pakiness does contribute to their approach.
With the possibility of an error in reading of the salary figure in the visa application, it is possible that DK gets respite from the visa fraud allegation. "Mistreatment/low payment/slavery" was pure nandi dropping that helped SR's benefactors to start the process and get the family to the US. Some sympathetic consideration from the NY DA office too contributed (this would not have happened had it been a focussed mission to retrieve CIA assets).
One loose end in this thought process is if the DA could actually start something that would potentially need SD's blessings and cooperation. People have mentioned the strength of EJ networks to arrange visas. Maybe that helped overcome the difficulty for DA to accomplish "evacuation". A sympathetic staffer in the US embassy perhaps.
Just thinking aloud.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 14:22
by svenkat
Read an editorial in the widely read tamizh daily "Dina Thanthi", blaming DK,praising American legal system and advising GOI to ensure compliance by IFS officials.Was wondering whether Theo wrote the editorial. :)

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 15:20
by Pratyush
The media articles are the actions of a well oiled propaganda machine that is working overtime to undermine Indian interests. I will sound like Rahul Mehta. But In this instance I agree with him that some people in this country have aligned their interests with those of the US over and above the Interests of the Indian nation. To an extent that law and order and diplomatic conventions can be thrown under the bus. If that helps further US interests.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 16:03
by Austin
svenkat wrote:Read an editorial in the widely read tamizh daily "Dina Thanthi", blaming DK,praising American legal system and advising GOI to ensure compliance by IFS officials.
Happens when our own people run to US praising how great is the land of Milk and Honey is ..... Running from Pillar to Post to get the Green Card for their own future and that of their families and then when they are well settled advising the Indians on how we should live and what is good for us .....admiring and praising the eternally perfect US system , having little or no clue how ordinary Indians live their daily life.

You cant blame the US , Sadly its our own greed at many level that lets us down.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 16:25
by SSridhar
svenkat, as Wikileaks demonstrated, all sorts of people in TN were talking to the US consular officers giving them information on various events and analyzing political developments etc. I was astonished by the level of information gathered by the US Consulate. In the last ten years or so, the American consular officers have been seen in every important cultural event in Chennai. Even last week, my music club's events for this carnatic music season were kick started by the Consul General of the US Consulate. Their tentacles are spread far and wide.

Also, take a look at the Tamizh edition of The Hindu and the comments appearing against these various op-eds on this issue.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 16:37
by Singha
I see two groups among my facebook circle. RI are strongly behind GOI/DK while GC/citizens of khanland were quiet initially now some are still quiet and some are bringing up article critical of DK/her father/IFS only - typical chimps beating up other chimps due to conditioning and need for 'acceptance' and need to be seen as 'impartial' and 'playing with a straight bat'. not one of them has posted anything in support of indian position.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 17:31
by chaanakya
kenop wrote:IMHO, the mole/spy angle is unsustainable.
Had this been true, a court case or arrest would not have taken place. .
Wait till Delhi Station Chief is compulsorily retired. I think India should reveal the name of Station Chief like Pakistan did i.e. if Congis have any spine left. I doubt seriously.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 17:35
by Victor
Singha wrote: not one of them has posted anything in support of indian position.
Extreme view IMO and wrong for sure.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 18:15
by Singha
Sure no offence meant. I only referred to my fbook circle and few of the people therein.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 19:12
by Gerard
A reciprocal arrangement for barriers should be simple to negotiate. Barriers in front Indian Embassy and Consulates in USA, blocking off part of street. Same for US Embassy and Consulates in India.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 20:30
by member_28336
Dear B-R members,
This is my first post here, even though I have been a regular reader for past few years. Hello to everyone! :) This would be a slightly longer post.. pls bear with me.

My 2 paisa on this whole Devyani saga:

Before saying what I think actually happened, it is imperative to debunk some of the baseless conspiracy theories going around. Too bad someone B.Raman is not there around to provide objective analysis on their blog.

De-bunking Conspiracy Theories:
There are three conspiracy theories around which rank high in absurdity chart. I thought only our good neighbor TSA thrives on conspiracy theories..guess we are not very far behind.

1. The maid's husband is a CIA spy:
That man, Richard, is neither an exceptionally talented person nor well connected to anyone in Indian strategic or government or business circles. US govt would have no use to have a spy who works as a hired help in their own consulate - unless they want to spy on their own consulate employees!

The mechanism in which the state department got them out of the country is sought to be explained with this theory, but there are several cases where justice department can bring in folks from other countries using T visas, especially from India. In fact, for the financial year 2012, India is the top nation whose citizens were brought into US through T-visas to USA. In 2012, India was issued 128 with Thailand getting 113 and Philippines getting 86. Most countries have it in single digits or zero. This indicates one and only one thing to my mind - Indians in US are among the top nationalities claiming human trafficking for getting asylum in US. One might be surprised that Mexico is not in this list as Mexicans mostly come to India on their own risk (not trafficked by others), but the most logical theory one can have given the public information in this case is that Indians might generally (claim to) be trafficked as nannies / maids and Thailand folks might be trafficked to US for other reasons that Thailand is notorious for.

(check page 10 for visa by nationality) http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/FY12Ann ... leXVII.pdf

OT: I was surprised at the very high number of Chinese F-1 visas (order of magnitude higher than India's) but India beats them in B-1/2 visas and H visas (all work visas where as F visas are student visas).

imho, it is safe to discard this conspiracy theory unless someone can provide some solid fact indicating otherwise.

2. The maid was a plant by Massa to get confidential data from DK (Ms. Kobragade):
If the maid was a plant, the most illogical thing the maid would do is to ask for a pay raise, demand passport to go back to India, trigger blackmail and make matters complicated on her own volition soon after moving to US. There is just no public evidence or any statement from DK that suggests that there is reason to suspect the maid of any such thing. Besides US has very easy mechanisms to get Indian embassy's data. Given the low security standards and poor quality of Indian IT security employees in government organizations (I heard funny stories of government employed IT people - who are those that generally cannot get job in private IT sector), I expect all our official Internet / fax / phone communication to be compromised. NSA even hoodwinked Google which has among the best Internet security arrangements in the world. Hacking into computers and email exchanges of Indian embassy officials would be child's play for NSA than to depend on a new/un-reliable stay at home maid with limited education. Even if they did (for argument sake), they would have advised the maid to behave with lot more discretion. It strains my common sense to give any merit to this conspiracy theory.

3. It is a revenge of some sorts / US sending a message to India:
It is typical Indo-Pak mentality to harass each other's embassy staff. With the level of influence that US has in Delhi's political and diplomatic circles, they can get any Indian official who is perceived to insults them with just a phone call. US does not need to (and it is not their standard MO) to send a message to another country this way. US can send any message to India directly and in an unambiguous manner. It would be plain stupid of US to try to send a message to MEA this way. US in diplomatic circles is known for sending clear, unambiguous message. Only some countries like China send out unclear / mixed messages, but even they do not do it in a way that would put their own diplomatic staff at risk in a reciprocal move. The only country that indulges in this sort of despicable move is TSP and India retaliates in kind. This theory ranks along with other two theories in its absurdity, imho.

My 2c on home hawkish Actions proposed:

1. Use Article 377:
This is probably the ugliest and most condemn-able idea. Article 377 is a colonial appendage that should have been rectified long long ago. Indian civilization (and Hindu culture which forms a major part of Indian culture) has recognized transgenders and gays. Eminent Hindu leaders like Sri Sri Ravishankar-ji or modern interpreters of Hinduism such as Devdutt Patnaik are against this law. Unfortunately Ramdev is not an example of the inclusive mindset of Indian / Hindu culture. Our culture is very inclusive. While our culture does not promote transgenders or gays, it does not treat them as less than human either. There are examples from Puranas and Mahabharat w.r.to. transgenders and gays. There are multiple ancient sculptures and Indian paintings that clearly indicate what Article 377 calls as "sex against natural order" which is an euphemism for oral or anal sex by homogeneous or heterogeneous couples.

Major party leaders such as Mr. Sinha publicly making such suggestions has made India laughing stock of liberal world. The last thing we want is to convert our society with its inclusive, tolerant ethos into a fundamentalist, narrow dictatorial societies like those in middle east. As both Indian and Hindu, I am strongly against such suggestions. Lot of PR harm has been done to the International perception about Indian culture with this uncultured suggestion getting wide coverage in media and no major public condemnation of this suggestion by Indian media or government.

2. Cancel diplomatic relations with US or reduce it to trade missions:
This is an extreme emotional response which doesn't have any grounding in reality. One does not even know where to begin to respond when we see such suggestions. Fortunately no such extreme, unrealistic suggestion has been made in public media by persons of eminence. If so, it would have caused severe damage to our reputation as intelligent thinkers.

That said, there are lot of suggestions in BR that added to very valuable discussion and enriched my perspective. I am grateful for this discussion thread.

Without being clear on what happened, we cannot be clear on what our response should be. Going by the publicly available evidence so far, I arrive at the following:

Root Cause that triggered this issue of arrest of DK:
I arrive at two possibilities (reality could be a combination of both) all of which are very straight forward and nothing fancy like the conspiracy theorists would like to believe:

1. Maid abuse by DK:
If one goes by the salary paid to the maid and the allegations by the maid, it indicates a clear case of maid abuse on both ethical grounds and US law. One cannot argue that US law doesn't apply to this case, as it was clear from Malhotra's case earlier that it was indeed applicable to Indian consular staff that do not have full diplomatic immunity. DK should have known that. Other practices such as having to work very long hours and DK confiscating the passport of the maid and not allowing her to return to India are highly disturbing and should be investigated by GOI to ensure that no Indian diplomat or high official abuses their maids who will be generally helpless against their employers with power, influence and immunity. The pace and force with which DK's family in India went against the maid indicate intimidating tactics by DK and not magnanimity of an employer towards her hired help.

The fact that India is the country with the highest number of human trafficking related visas indicates that this problem is widespread by NRI community in US and not just Indian diplomats. I am sure old timers would remember the case of some successful businessman Reddy in California several years ago who abused their maids from Andra Pradesh and treated them as slaves? The Reddys got several years in prison after one of their maids died. Maid abuse is a huge problem in India. Having visited / lived in multiple countries, I can say that maid abuse is a real problem and in many Indian households maids are treated less than human (in many cases even under age children are used as maids with their parents paid a pittance - clear case of indentured labor). Interestingly, the public prosecutor in Reddy's case was also of Indian origin.

2. Maid is a blackmailer and exaaggerated to gain Immigration status for her and her family:
It is very possible that the maid used her under-pay situation (which is an undeniable fact) to her advantage and with "mis-guidance" from immigration attorney filed a case of exaggerated claim and abuse. Couple this with an extremely activist and ambitious Preet Barara who is always on look out for high-profile cases, we have a clear explanation for Justice department seeking immunity for the maid and her family and state department issuing T visas to maids husband Richard. Note that issuing T visas for Indians accused of human trafficking seems to be a norm for state department.

Another point of view one can take is that India being the top country in terms of maid abuse (I am talking only about public perception and actual case of complaints which may or may not be reflective of facts on ground) has US justice department looking for a high profile Indian to make an example of. It seems the agents that actually made arrest of DK were very courteous and only the the US Marshalls at the prison followed their "standard procedure". Handcuffing is THE norm in US. Even when they arrest senators or governors or the head of IMF, they are hand-cuffed. I wouldn't be surprised if the IMF head who was arrested for sexual abuse complaint by a hotel maid was strip searched, but I wouldn't exclude that. Most low level US employees are ignorant of notions such as diplomatic immunity and are very procedural.

Note that I am not justifying US actions. I think automatic strip search for non violent, non-drug related crimes is a very inhuman practice that deserves severe condemnation by every right thinking person. I hope DK's case acts as a wake up call for US to do some introspection and correct such a barbaric practice.

What is the key Issue here?

The issue here is not whether DK was right in her actions or she really abused the maid. The issue here is not about what is the standard prison intake process in US. Even if Russians or Chinese officials were arrested I think they would have got the same treatment.

However, the root of the issue is why was she arrested when US government could have expelled her. Going by facts publicly available, I do think DK potentially abused the maid and would have fully supported her arrest if she was not an consulate official. The issue here is State department authorizing her arrest and causing a diplomatic incident. US being a very procedure oriented country, once an arrest is authorized, it is not easy to do away with the standard procedure. Most Americans are immune to strip search and wouldn't even understand what the big deal about it is.

Both parties seem to have made mistakes. What would have been the right actions here?

For GOI:
Given the US history against slavery, laws against human trafficking and indentured labor (modern kind of slavery) are very strong and issue is very sensitive in US. They are similar to how laws against abuse of dalits are very strong and sensitive in India. After Malhotra's case and when NY laws changed in 2011 to insist on giving local minimum wage for maids by consulate officials, GOI should have woken up and ensured that our diplomats dont abuse maids or lie on record. If anything IFS should have understood this more than anyone else - it is their job to get a clear perception of the host countries civil, societal and strategic thinking and plans.

Second mistake by GOI is not recalling DK when the maid filed a complaint. DK's husband is a US citizen and has a strong case against her in US. Both of these make her open to manipulation by US if they wanted. Our default SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) should be an immediate recall of such employees who could be arm twisted to compromise.

US State department:
For the US State department, right action would have been to ask India to expel such diplomats who indulge in maid abuse / trafficking (or discretely ask India to take her back and ensure that maid abuse does not happen in our embassies).

US cops / justice department:
They should have exercised judgement and did away with the strip search as it was not mandatory. Hand-cuffing is not optional process in US as even the IMF president (a French national) was hand-cuffed when his hotel maid complained against him.

The damage:
Given the strategic long term and current tactical tensions between US and China US has been trying to build a strategic relation with India for last 10+ years. There are some old cold war anti-India elements in US State department who sometimes act as stumbling blocks to this, but given the trajectory of US - India relations and US starting to sell hi-tech military hardware previously reserved only for NATO allies, and the increasing army to army relations and joint exercises are strong examples of this. It was a stupid action most likely caused by some dim-wits in State department. Unfortunate reality of cold war with India's socialist leaning had India and US in opposite camps even when they were natural partners. Right when this was being rectified this incident happened causing severe even if repairable damage to our relations.

My 2c on what to do next:
India should assert its immunity for our diplomat and get her to safety. At the same time, we should constitute a commission to inquire into accusations of maid abuse and change policies so that it cannot happen. Realistically, asking for formal apology would not work as US does not apologize. Even when their 22 naval officers were arrested by China in their spy plane case and China vehemently demanded an apology, US only issued regret. I think we should accept the regret (given that DK may not be clean in this issue) and work out a mechanism to get DK to India and be prosecuted by Indian laws if she really abused the maid. If an out of court settlement can be had with the maid, we should do it and bring the issue to a quick end. We accomplished part of what we had to achieve - to make state department treat Indian consulate officials with same respect they accord to Russian or Chinese diplomats. We extracted a regret from secretary of state and it is time to move ahead in a face-saving way for both countries.

As inclusive progressive civilizations that value diversity, freedom of religion and democratic ideals, India and US are natural partners. Many crucial US thinkers that shaped US civilization (Ex: Thoreau, Martin Luther King Jr.) were influenced by India (vedic wisdom and Gandhiji's thought respectively) and in-turn influenced Indian thinkers (Gandhiji was influenced by Thoreau and some dalit thinkers (not leaders) claim to be influenced by Martin Luther King Jr.). US was a country that strongly supported India's independence and Gandhiji's was a darling of US media which exerted pressure on Britain to some extent. Despite cold war, US presidents such as Kennedy were sincere in seeking closer relations and friendship with India (It was Nehru who spurned Kennedy and not other way) and in India- China war and in the later food crisis, Kennedy strongly stood by India and avoided two disasters (humiliating Chinese defeat and large scale famine). We need to take our relationship forward and work to undo the mis-trust this incident has caused.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 20:49
by habal
the nub of the problem is like someone said, the bureaucracy (SD) on American side wants their law to dominate Indian law and thereby enlarge their empires without a fight. Obviously, it is not going to be accepted.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 21:14
by Arjun
dummy wrote:I arrive at two possibilities (reality could be a combination of both) all of which are very straight forward and nothing fancy like the conspiracy theorists would like to believe:

1. Maid abuse by DK:

2. Maid is a blackmailer and exaaggerated to gain Immigration status for her and her family:
Dear dummy,

You seem to have completely missed out the most likely third option - which is that, neither was the maid abused under the terms of the Vienna Convention which DK regarded as the defining law, and neither is the maid a blackmailer - but that the US is simply unwilling or incapable of understanding the terms of the Vienna Convention.

Any reason why this third possibility got entirely missed out by you ?

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 21:19
by Kati
Was talking to a coworker - non-desi, non-massa person, whose land of origin has
a huge trade surplus with massa. After hearing the DK episode the coworker wondered why the desis are getting so emotional. The coworker told point blank to have a quiet resolve at a personal level not showing any mercy or weakness to mass people. Don't donate to massa charities, give every paise to deshi charities (without massa link). Use massland just as a market to dump own goods to make money, - nothing more, nothing less.... But, time will be on our side. Quiet retaliation needs to be taken - whether it takes one week, or one month or one year (just as the coworker's land of origin does).
The coworker warned that the biggest blunder will be to forgive and forget the matter.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Posted: 25 Dec 2013 21:42
by svinayak
Austin wrote:
svenkat wrote:Read an editorial in the widely read tamizh daily "Dina Thanthi", blaming DK,praising American legal system and advising GOI to ensure compliance by IFS officials.
Happens when our own people run to US praising how great is the land of Milk and Honey is ..... Running from Pillar to Post to get the Green Card for their own future and that of their families and then when they are well settled advising the Indians on how we should live and what is good for us .....admiring and praising the eternally perfect US system , having little or no clue how ordinary Indians live their daily life.

You cant blame the US , Sadly its our own greed at many level that lets us down.
Indicate such articles as personal opinion which is for personal interest to keep the image of uncle a land of honey and ...
Indian editorials should only see India as the country in which they operate and other countries as foriegn