Discussion on Indian Special Forces

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RayC
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by RayC »

KiranM wrote:
RayC wrote:Just take the SAS

The Special Air Service is a Corps of the British Army under the United Kingdom legal system which authorises the raising of military forces and comprises three battalion-sized units, one Regular and two Territorial Army (TA), each styled as 'regiments' in accordance with British Army practice; 22 Regiment SAS being the Regular unit, with 21 Regiment SAS (Artists) and 23 Regiment SAS as the TA units, known together as the Special Air Service (Reserve) or SAS(R). Under the Operational Command (OPCOM) of the Director Special Forces.

Each Regiment comprises a number of "Sabre" Squadrons with some supporting functions being undertaken within 22 SAS; Headquarters, Planning, and Intelligence Section, Operational Research Section, Counter Revolutionary Warfare Wing, and Training Wing. ('Sabre' Squadrons are so called to distinguish the operational squadrons from administrative or HQ squadrons.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/22_Regimen ... 2_Regiment

One can well imagine what the strength would be - battalion sized - three of them!!

And the UK is but a tiny island!!
Counter Revolutionary Wing is not really a supporting section. Its function is akin to NSG. used primarily for Internal CT/HR.

Regards.
Just my point.

To feel that the NSG is bulky etc etc is not quite correct.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

KiranM wrote: Counter Revolutionary Wing is not really a supporting section. Its function is akin to NSG. used primarily for Internal CT/HR.

Regards.
CRW also functions as CT/HRT but is not primarily for Internal duties. Their mandate has been and remains external ops. outside Europe. BTW there is no static CRW...different teams in SAS rotate thru that assignment so that everybody has that experience. There is quite a bit of literature on how CRW came about...some smart thinking from the Brits but they have always been mischief makers in everybody else's neighborhood.

When we talk about 8000 NSG, remember we are talking about all personnel not just the hits of SAG...which are actually quite small in strength. All 8000 of NSG are not assaulters or members of CT teams or HRTs. It includes support staff, intel, staff of bomb data center etc. NSG is a pretty unique organization in that it has pretty much all the resources it wants as part of itself except the air assets. Most western units do not have that but some of them make up for it with excellent coordination and centralized SF commands for example in case of US.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by AdityaM »

In the aftermath of mumbai, did any other country express its desire to have its personal trained by NSG? :?:
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by somnath »

The British SAS is comprised of 1 regular and 2 TA units. Its a bit like the National Guards units attached to the US SOCOM. I dont think the TA/NG units will be kitted out or trained nearly as well as the regular units. In a like-to-like comparison, our Army (SF) are 7 battalions strong - all regular battalions.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by KiranM »

Bose sir, I am aware of personnel from Sabre squadrons rotating through CRW (again something similar to NSG having the rotation policy). From my understanding CRW will operate in foreign territory in;
- advisory role
- CT/ HR in friendly territory
- incident analysis/ observation and information collection/ collation to finetune CQB tactics

Regarding their jurisdiction please read the bolded parts below in context.

Quoting from: http://www.stuff.themutual.net/crw.htm
While the anti-terrorist team deals mainly with domestic incidents within the UK, the CRW is active all over the world, collating information about terrorist and militant groups and working with the intelligence agencies of our own as well as other governments in a bid to combat the international terrorist problem. Knowledge is everything in the fight against terrorism and it is CRW which provides the anti-terrorist team with information about their enemy and the best tactics to use to get the job done.

Another interesting read:
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=Rop- ... #PPA186,M1
Last edited by KiranM on 23 Feb 2009 15:48, edited 6 times in total.
RayC
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by RayC »

One of the first things people think about when they hear "SAS"(besides soldiers in black kit storming a building)is Selection. Selection is designed to break people. Only about 10 out of 125 will make it. For any soldier Selection is the ultimate test of endurance and mental strain. Selection is broken down into 3 phases.

The first part is the Special Forces Briefing Course. This is a joint three day class to show potential SAS and SBS recruits what is expected of them. Class room lectures and physical training take place. You MUST pass this course to be allowed onto Selection. They are shown films and are given the chance to get some insight into Selection. For certain reasons this is not considered(by SpecWar Net)to be one of the THREE MAIN phases of Selection. This should be combined with the first part.

The First three weeks of Selection is held mostly in the Brecon Beacons and Black Mountains in Wales. Soldiers are expected to increase their weight in their bergens (rucks) and distances will also become greater. If a soldier fails a test more then twice is RTUed(Returned To Unit). The soldier is allowed to repeat the course again if he is willing. One of the most notorious parts is the "Fan Dance". This is a march over the Brecons. It should take about 4 hours to complete. Another part and probably the most famous, is the Long Drag. It is held on the last day of the three weeks. It is about 40 miles over the Brecons. The soldier willl now be carrying a 55 pound bergen (if it is under weight a DS will make sure you get the proper weight). Remember this doesn't include water and food! The passing times range from 20 to 24 hours to complete this course. Although TA members get a little slack (about 30 min.). If the weather is good try to get in under 20 hours.

It is important to remember that your bergen weight includes water or food. Bergen weights will vary through out the course. It will range from 30 pounds to 70 pounds, with an average of about 50 to 55 pounds. Blisters are common, and they should be taken care of quickly. By this point maybe about 40 men are left.

Jungle Phase is the next hurdle. SAS and SBS soldiers will be integrated into patrols. You will learn to travel, live, and fight in the jungle. The jungle will have different affects on people. Some will enjoy it, others will hate it. Disease is also another thing to worry about. Everything has to be taken care of (cuts, blisters, and eating equipment)to prevent sickness which may get you kicked off the course. "It is good advice to get yourself into the jungle before you attend Selection", says Barry Davies (18 year veteran of the SAS) in his new book Joining the SAS. In the jungle you will learn to fight and use demolitions. Also the art of making a camp is also taught. Rain is almost non-stop, so equipment must be looked after.

By the end of the Jungle Phase, only about 20 men will be left. It is time to move on to Escape and Evasion and TQ( or Tactical Questioning). E&E is taught my members of the SAS and SBS. The soldiers learn how to catch food and live off the land. Former POWs (or Prisoners Of War)also talk to the classes. They tell them about their situations and how they made it. Escaping is also taught. The Course ends with a final exercise. The men are paired up with other students (no SAS or SBS personel are put together)from other branches and units, such as pilots from the RAF and RN and other units. The men are given only old WWII jackets and some ripped pants, and boots that are barely being held together. They are then turned loose in a large wooded area. The men must check in with various check points. The soldiers are on the run usually for about 3 days. A "hunter force" is always in pursuit. These forces are usually from other Army units, such as the Paras, Gurkhas, or Green Jackets. They are tasked with hunting down the recruits. By the end ALL the recruits are captured. Now they face TQ. TQ is usually considered an easy part Selection. They must stick to the "Big 4" and say nothing else except, "I'm sorry I can't answer that question sir/mam." Women are sometimes brought in, and the men are forced to strip. The women then makes jokes about the man's body parts. It is not usually seen as hard by the SAS although, usually one or two men fail.

After completion the remaining class will go it's separate ways. Royal Marines are given the chance to say whether they want to go onto the SBS and even more training and Selection or whether they would like to stay on with the SAS. For the SAS men, this is a great moment, when they receive the beret and famous "Winged Dagger" beret badge. Training is far from over though. For the SBS men they will go on to Poole where they will learn the trade of their unit. But that is another story.

Selection for the TA SAS is held over a nine month period, in which candidates are expected to keep in top physical shape. Selection is only held on the weekends and one night a week. Although it is held only on weekends, TA SAS Selection is still extremely hard. Every candidate must first pass a Pre-Selection. This includes a timed run and ruck marches over the hills. The students will go to the Brecons to get a taste of Selection. As Selection continues, SAS students are expected to increase their times over the hills and deal with the additional weight. At the end of the course is the infamous "Long Drag". Long Drag is the longest single ruck march through the Brecons. It is a 60 kilometer march through some of the worlds hardest terrain. Every SAS soldier must pass this. It usually takes about 20 hours to complete although it is said TA SAS candidates get a little slack on that, maybe 30 minutes. At the end every student must also pass escape and evasion and TQ (or Tactical Questioning). At the end of Selection each soldier is sent to RAF Brize Norton for parachute training. One this is done the soldier is allowed to wear the coveted tan beret and winged dagger patch. At the end of Selection, maybe 10% of have passed. On two occasions recruits have been found dead in the Brecons. Regulars from 22 SAS used to see the TA SAS Regiments as a bunch of "weekend warriors", however after General Sir Peter De La Billiere served as Commandant of the SAS he made it a rule that an officer or Senior NCO wishing to gain rank had to serve with the TA SAS. This increased the relationship between the Regiments and laid the ground work for quite a bit of respect among them as well.

Although the wartime role of the TA SAS is long range reconnaissance, TA SAS soldiers have been known to train in CQB as well.23 SAS is also tasked with CSAR. The soldiers are taught about foreign weapons and explosives. They are also given extensive medical and communications training. These last to skills are essential for LRR patrols to master, since they would usually be operating deep behind enemy lines with little or no support. TA soldiers have recently been allowed to go to Jungle Warfare school in Belize, a school which is thought to also except TA SAS soldiers. Training in winter warfare is also taught to TA SAS soldiers; either in Norway or in the highlands of Scotland. The TA SAS used to send its troops to the International Long Range Reconnaissance Patrol School in Weingarten, Germany. However it is believed that this school is now closed.

The basic weapon carried by TA SAS soldiers is the British SA-80 and the LSW version of the same weapon. The SA-80 is know for not being very reliable. For this reason 22 SAS does not employ this weapon often. The Sterling sub-machine gun was also issued. However this weapon has been taken out of the inventory. It is thought the MP-5 might be in limited use with the TA SAS Regiments. The Browning 9mm handgun is also used as a back-up weapon and in CQB. The American M-16 w/ or w/out M-203 40 mm grenade launcher is also believed to be in limited use.

Excerpt from:
http://www.specwarnet.net/europe/sas.htm

May also see:

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics ... ir_Service
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by KiranM »

Last I read, SAS wasnt really happy with the combat capabilities of SBS. They credited them only for excellent infiltration capabilities. In fact there was a talk of SAS taking over maritime action role with SBS restricted to just infiltrating and delivering the SAS elements to desired points.

Guess SAS is throwing this thread OT. :)

Regarding IA Para Commando battalions, I read once that the strength is not like regular IA battalions. Each Para Cdo battalion has a strength of 300-500. RayC Sir, requiring confirmation of the specs, roger. ;)
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

KiranM,

Thanks for the link. Please edit your post if possible, coz the link is screwing up the page width. AFAIK the anti-terrorist teams of SAS have been primarily used outside UK, not inside. In fact apart from 2 or 3 incidents, I cannot think of any where they have been used within UK but I may be wrong. These teams also spend a lot of time in advisory role in foreign countries....incld. the war on drugs.

Ray sir,

Despite all the hoohaa over SAS selection in the west, I think our SF go thru an even more physically gruelling training regimen. Ofcourse that is not to say that the SAS selection is some walk in the park. I have been to those parts where they do the selection forced marches and navigation exercises. Bleak desolate and bloody cold!!
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

KiranM wrote:Last I read, SAS wasnt really happy with the combat capabilities of SBS. They credited them only for excellent infiltration capabilities. In fact there was a talk of SAS taking over maritime action role with SBS restricted to just infiltrating and delivering the SAS elements to desired points.

Guess SAS is throwing this thread OT. :)

Regarding IA Para Commando battalions, I read once that the strength is not like regular IA battalions. Each Para Cdo battalion has a strength of 300-500. RayC Sir, requiring confirmation of the specs, roger. ;)
Well SAS didn't cover themselves with glory either when they killed SBS men in a friendly fire incident during Falklands campaign and the less said about their GW-I 'missile hunting' the better. Inter-unit rivalries will always be there! :((
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by KiranM »

Oh.. SAS blames SBS for those SNAFUs :) Their criticisms was specific to some botched ops carried out by SBS during GW2.
Raja Bose wrote: AFAIK the anti-terrorist teams of SAS have been primarily used outside UK, not inside. In fact apart from 2 or 3 incidents, I cannot think of any where they have been used within UK but I may be wrong.
May be those ops were in friendly/ non-hostile territory? Just a measured guess.

Regards to the bolded part; please don't forget snippets about SAS involvement in North Ireland and also some cross- border snatches. These were not officially acknowledged.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Lalmohan »

extensive usage of SAS in Northern Ireland mostly covert, also an incident in Gibralter where plain clothes SAS assasinated an IRA operative in broad daylight. the most famous public episode being the Iranian embassy storming in London.

war time usage has been much more mixed - the british have a long history of underfunding, insufficient equipment (in comparison to US Forces) and a strange military ethos of screwing things up but still muddling through regardless. perhaps this is more honest than those who claim that everything was perfect and their men were invincible.

the brecon beacons are tough, but in a strange way. they are rugged hills, but very green and very wet with temperatures dropping rapidly and unpredictably. the challenge becomes one of keeping the body's core temperature in an acceptable band whilst going through mud, rain and constantly up and down over steep albeit little hills carrying the pack all through. without adequate care, exposure in the british hills can kill you from hypothermia within a fairly short space of time.

from what i've heard, the escape and evasion exercise is designed to fail, i.e. even if you elude your pursuers, your handlers will betray you at the final checkpoint - the whole point being you have to undergo capture and interrogation. the exercise can be fairly realistic, i.e. use of physical violence against the captive, then there is the sleep denial, cold, white noise and sexual humiliation. there is an urban legend where an RAF pilot trainee confessed to an affair with the CO's wife during interrogation training!
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Nayak »

AdityaM wrote:In the aftermath of mumbai, did any other country express its desire to have its personal trained by NSG? :?:
Germany was the first to offer their GSG 9 unit to cross train with NSG.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by AdityaM »

Nayak wrote:
AdityaM wrote:In the aftermath of mumbai, did any other country express its desire to have its personal trained by NSG? :?:
Germany was the first to offer their GSG 9 unit to cross train with NSG.
was this to mutually learn from each other, or was it on request from india to train indian NSG?
IIRC, the papers mentioned of India wanting to update its skill rather than a mutually beneficial training. Or perhaps i got it wrong
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Aditya G »

It is better to have one unified force for better command and control and coordination, rather than a multifarious organisations. Because there is a plethora of organisations, there is no unified action as we see in J&K.
Ray, if the Army were to raise an equivalent number for the duties the BSF, ITBP and other CPOs perform, then some questions arise:

(a) Will it not be too expensive compared to CPOs? Isnt 1 Bn of the Indian Army more expensive on all counts compared to BSF due to better ToE, pay, pensions and so on?

(b) Can we visualise a 2 million strong Army with all the current officer shortage problems?

(c) Would the army be happy to perform a 'mundane' role like border management on an indefinite term?

(d) Is it prudent to vest the Army with police powers to arrest drug traffickers, smugglers and so on.

(e) Will it 'dilute' the focus on conventional military operations?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by RayC »

KiranM wrote:Last I read, SAS wasnt really happy with the combat capabilities of SBS. They credited them only for excellent infiltration capabilities. In fact there was a talk of SAS taking over maritime action role with SBS restricted to just infiltrating and delivering the SAS elements to desired points.

Guess SAS is throwing this thread OT. :)

Regarding IA Para Commando battalions, I read once that the strength is not like regular IA battalions. Each Para Cdo battalion has a strength of 300-500. RayC Sir, requiring confirmation of the specs, roger. ;)
Para Cdo bn has a total of 538 all ranks.

They have one Adm Team and three groups and each Group has three Teams and an MMG sec and each Team has four section.

In comparison, a Para Bn has 814 all ranks.

That was how it was in my time.

Raja,

I presume each country tries its best to have a real lean and mean SF and they factor the issues as per their requirement.

SAS, Delta Force et al have their ops going askew. No organisation can have 100% success and so unless the organisation botches up ops repeatedly, it does not mean that they are not upto scratch!
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by RayC »

Aditya G wrote:
It is better to have one unified force for better command and control and coordination, rather than a multifarious organisations. Because there is a plethora of organisations, there is no unified action as we see in J&K.
Ray, if the Army were to raise an equivalent number for the duties the BSF, ITBP and other CPOs perform, then some questions arise:

(a) Will it not be too expensive compared to CPOs? Isnt 1 Bn of the Indian Army more expensive on all counts compared to BSF due to better ToE, pay, pensions and so on?

(b) Can we visualise a 2 million strong Army with all the current officer shortage problems?

(c) Would the army be happy to perform a 'mundane' role like border management on an indefinite term?

(d) Is it prudent to vest the Army with police powers to arrest drug traffickers, smugglers and so on.

(e) Will it 'dilute' the focus on conventional military operations?
Good questions.

I am not too sure about the cost. I think a BSF has a larger infrastructure in their battalions and their staff than the Army. Equipment wise, the Army is more expensive.

Yet, on the other hand, the BSF administrative back replicates the Army to a great extent. If it were under the Army, then the Army resources would suffice and it would be a saving.

However, one can't say without details available for analysis.

The current officer shortage has been created by what is known as the market forces. If one gets better pay in the market, who wants to opt for a hard life with a meagre pay? I presume it is a global phenomenon. The US has offered Green Card holders fast track US citizenship if they join the Armed Forces and do a stint in Iraq/ Afghanistan. The UK is no better.

I will be very frank. It is not pay that matters. It is the respect that the country and administration bestows on the Army. If the pay is peanuts and the administration indifferent, who wants to be ready to die or have a rough family life, when elsewhere it is better in all respect. One should visit Army housing! Junior officers residence are like ruins. If you have the time, visit Shankar Vihar! One would shudder. The staircases are broken and chipped, the wall practically on its last leg with plaster peeing off and the whitewash ancient and filthy. Now, if a young child comes to visit someone there, enamoured by the glitz of the Republic Day Parade, he will be turned off, even if he has the fire in his belly.

We have already spoken about other issues how the Armed Forces has slowly lost its sheen owing to various factors and I won't go into them.

Army is right now doing border management in many areas. And it is not done indefinitely. There is rotation. Guarding the border is the Army's task and it is not new or mundane.

Be those crossing the border a smuggler or a drug trafficker, he is an infiltrator. He is apprehended; call it by name name. It is done even now and the infiltrator is first questioned by FS and then handed over to the police for further action.

Guarding the border is being done by the Army all over the frontier even now and it has not diluted the focus since that is also a task of the Army.

My contention is that every now and then, a new force is created to tackle a situation that has arisen. Knee jerk reaction to lull the angry citizens. And in the end, those who have to deliver are at sixes and sevens since each organisation wants to do it its way!

J&K is an example of the mess.

And with the Ministries controlling them being different, the confusion is compounded.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by KiranM »

RayC wrote: Para Cdo bn has a total of 538 all ranks.

They have one Adm Team and three groups and each Group has three Teams and an MMG sec and each Team has four section.

In comparison, a Para Bn has 814 all ranks.

That was how it was in my time.
Sir, what is the strength of each structural unit? Asking because they are different from the regular Army organization.

Added later: Why a separate MMG section? I mean SF is an offensive force. Not really to hold ground. So I dont understand the reason behind having so.

Thanks and Regards.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by RayC »

KiranM wrote:
RayC wrote: Para Cdo bn has a total of 538 all ranks.

They have one Adm Team and three groups and each Group has three Teams and an MMG sec and each Team has four section.

In comparison, a Para Bn has 814 all ranks.

That was how it was in my time.
Sir, what is the strength of each structural unit? Asking because they are different from the regular Army organization.

Added later: Why a separate MMG section? I mean SF is an offensive force. Not really to hold ground. So I dont understand the reason behind having so.

Thanks and Regards.
I don't remember the breakdown of strength.

Yes, they are different from a regular infantry battalion.

I would not know if the MMG section is separate now. The MMGs have been inducted into the Companies in regular infantry battalions.

MMGs are for fire support from a firebase - anvil and hammer! That is the simplified answer. MMGS have longer range as you know and heavy volume of fire!
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Lalmohan »

there's a lot on youtube that is educational. there is a british guy who does embedded documentaries with british troops in afghanistan. pretty good stuff, explains how patrols work, MMG's, mortar support. you see quite a lot of ground level action and how the operations seem to work - within reason ofcourse. was watching one recently where the patrol set off and then found that all the radio codes had been changed and they were stuck out on the sharp end of a taliban line! the major in charge re-organised quickly (after swearing profusely at HQ) and then carried on with the mission - which was to draw taliban fire and fix their position, and then retalliate.

loudspeakers were used to send out pushtu insults, which drew almost immediate response, then MMG's and mortars opened up - finally an air strike - but a lot of nervousness since the talib positions were at one stage 300m from a lead unit in a mud brick compound! One guy was hit in the arm from a ricochet, he was patched up and then walked back to the armoured vehicles to be evacuated. pretty intense television! Not SF but still very educational for us armchair generals.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by kobe »

= self deleted due to wrong thread=
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

Actually when I said the 2-3 SAS ops within UK I was referring to Op.Nimrod (Iranian embassy), the Pankhurst prison raid and one other I forget. The N.Ireland ops and cross-border snatches somehow always figure as 'non-UK' ops in my mind! The first SAS man, Capt. Richard Westmacott to die in action against the IRA was killed in N. Ireland during a raid against a machine gun nest hidden in a tobacco shop. I still have the Orbis Elite magazine issue of that incident. The Gibralter gunning down of IRA personnel created a big flap with everybody and their grandmother accusing SAS of violating human rights.


@Ray Sir,

The initial ops. undertaken by Delta were pretty botched affairs which led some to question the leadership of Beckwith and the doctrine created by him. But then Beckwith was no diplomat either and did not endear himself to his superiors nor to his men in Delta esp. when he accused them of cowardice after op.Eagle Claw failed!

@Lalmohan,
You are right, The temperature variance is a big problem......has to be felt to be believed. Even some experienced SAS men have died from hypothermia (if I am not mistaken including one CO) on Brecon Beacons during exercises.

@Aditya,
I hope NSG is looking for cross-training with other units and regular exchange of ideas....isolation will lead to stagnant tactics after all. I am sure NSG has a lot more to share from real-life operations with the likes of GSG9 so it should not be a one-way relationship.
Last edited by Raja Bose on 24 Feb 2009 03:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

Lalmohan wrote:there's a lot on youtube that is educational. there is a british guy who does embedded documentaries with british troops in afghanistan. pretty good stuff, explains how patrols work, MMG's, mortar support. you see quite a lot of ground level action and how the operations seem to work - within reason ofcourse. was watching one recently where the patrol set off and then found that all the radio codes had been changed and they were stuck out on the sharp end of a taliban line! the major in charge re-organised quickly (after swearing profusely at HQ) and then carried on with the mission - which was to draw taliban fire and fix their position, and then retalliate.
Going slightly OT but I also remember seeing a documentary on Canadian troops in Afghanistan. It was amazing to see the level of ignorance of those fellas. They actually went to some remote Afghan village to do a hearts and minds, promising to fix their water pump and when they arrived, the first question the female officer leading the patrol asked the interpreter was if there was some place like a Home Depot nearby where they could take the pump and get it fixed! :rotfl: Then on the way back whil driving these Canadians were skipping rounds toward anybody who even came within 50 ft. of their trucks....that includes kids, women, old men, cars, donkeys etc. They were literally loosing off shots at everybody. And then they compalined why these obstinate Afghans were not grateful to them and why these ingrates were not siding with them in their fight against Taliban/Al-Qaida. :roll: Needless to say the pump remained unfixed and this unit left after their stint to be replaced by another equally clueless bunch.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by somnath »

In the Indian special ops space, the most riveting one that I have come across has been the Indo-US operation to deploy a "nuclear" listening device in the Himalayas. MS Kohli's book that came in a few years back on this of course provides the "gory" details...Unfortunately the Sino US detente happened soon after that, precluding any scope for further expeditions!

the other really successful special ops experience was the Bangladesh war operation, "pre-war". Directed by RAW, executed by elements of the IA and BSF - would make for interesting reading. Unfortunaetly there isnt a lot of material on that in the public domain..
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

somnath wrote:In the Indian special ops space, the most riveting one that I have come across has been the Indo-US operation to deploy a "nuclear" listening device in the Himalayas. MS Kohli's book that came in a few years back on this of course provides the "gory" details...Unfortunately the Sino US detente happened soon after that, precluding any scope for further expeditions!

the other really successful special ops experience was the Bangladesh war operation, "pre-war". Directed by RAW, executed by elements of the IA and BSF - would make for interesting reading. Unfortunaetly there isnt a lot of material on that in the public domain..
That is the book by Kohli, Conboy et. al, Spies in the Himalayas. A very good read...also has quite a bit of info on early SFF. Nothing gory about it in blood and guts terms though but pretty daring expedition. However, the nuke generator for one of the monitoring devices was lost in Nanda Devi and has still not been recovered?

Bangladesh ops is not exactly special ops (in context of this thread). Heard quite a bit about it from my grandfather who as Chief Engineer Eastern region had been responsible for maintainence of the RAW & ARC bases before/during the '71 war and later also served as the first Chief Engineer (Public Works) of Bangladesh since his counterpart, the last chief engineer of ex-East Pakistan (and his former classmate at BE college) had been slaughtered by the Pakis along with entire family (their bodies were never recovered). Incidentally, my father then a student at IITK was amongst the first civllians to go into Bangladesh...he still has the UN assigned id card. Spent a day there, brought some fish and hoisted it back to Howrah. Later he also saw AAK Niazi in captivity at Ft.William during an assignment there from Philips.....that shameless idiot was hardly living in PoW conditions it seems!
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Dmurphy »

Errr...just wanted to ask you guys...what happened to the new home the NSG was supposed to find? Where will their new base be? Sorry if this has been discussed before.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

^^^ Welcome to the party Late Latif :mrgreen:
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by somnath »

Raja Bose wrote:
That is the book by Kohli, Conboy et. al, Spies in the Himalayas. A very good read...also has quite a bit of info on early SFF. Nothing gory about it in blood and guts terms though but pretty daring expedition. However, the nuke generator for one of the monitoring devices was lost in Nanda Devi and has still not been recovered?
Yes, in fact there was a committee later set up (led by Raja Ramanna if I am not mistaken) to evaluate whether the the lost device could be spreading radioactivity in Indian rivers - this was durign Morarji's time...the book is a good read - especially selection of Khampa Tibetans to the SFF, there were also plans for a follow up mission, but it never happened thanks to the Kissinger missions to China...

Bangladesh war was a special ops venture, in fact the first major one by RAW-BSF-IA, before the real war started. It was a reasonably elaborate venture, with BSF-IA in mufti, Mukti Bahini being trained by the RAW/IA and sent back for action. Management of the international media by organising visits to the refugee camps..Lots of references to that - including in JN Dixit's book on India-Pakistan, as well as B Raman's Kaoboys. But no detailed accounts..
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

somnath wrote:It was a reasonably elaborate venture, with BSF-IA in mufti, Mukti Bahini being trained by the RAW/IA and sent back for action. Management of the international media by organising visits to the refugee camps.
It was covert operations but not necessarily a Special Forces operation. Actually, initially the MB fellows for all their bravado, did not want to go back after some initial skirmishes and given a bloody nose by the Pakistani Army. So initially to boost their confidence and stiffen their resolve....certain 'other' people disguised as MB went in.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Rahul M »

That is the book by Kohli, Conboy et. al, Spies in the Himalayas. A very good read...also has quite a bit of info on early SFF. Nothing gory about it in blood and guts terms though but pretty daring expedition. However, the nuke generator for one of the monitoring devices was lost in Nanda Devi and has still not been recovered?
IIRC amir khan alleged that the lost device(were there two devices or am I getting old ?) was in fact stolen by the dirty yindoos to gain access to the material inside.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by somnath »

Raja Bose wrote:
somnath wrote:It was a reasonably elaborate venture, with BSF-IA in mufti, Mukti Bahini being trained by the RAW/IA and sent back for action. Management of the international media by organising visits to the refugee camps.
It was covert operations but not necessarily a Special Forces operation. Actually, initially the MB fellows for all their bravado, did not want to go back after some initial skirmishes and given a bloody nose by the Pakistani Army. So initially to boost their confidence and stiffen their resolve....certain 'other' people disguised as MB went in.
Interesting, could well be possible, but never came across any references to that...Any references? Most of the accounts have fairly laudatory references to the contribution of the MB...
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Nayak »

AdityaM wrote: was this to mutually learn from each other, or was it on request from india to train indian NSG?
IIRC, the papers mentioned of India wanting to update its skill rather than a mutually beneficial training. Or perhaps i got it wrong
I had posted the article in the Internal Sec Thread. The germans wanted to train with NSG. They fear such incidents would be replicated in Oirope and hence wanted to pick up as much as possible from NSG. But to preserve ech and dee, it was termed as joint-ops.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

Nayak, who enchandee...the TFTA Germans?? :mrgreen:

Can you post the link to your post which mentions the article? Thanks!
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

somnath wrote: Interesting, could well be possible, but never came across any references to that...Any references? Most of the accounts have fairly laudatory references to the contribution of the MB...
Sorry somnath, anecdotal only from my grandfather, so take it FWIW. Don't think such material will find its way in 'official' publications since that insurgency was totally indigenous onlee with India providing moral support and aid to refugees onlee! One of the men who was in the thick of such things (Maj. Gen. Shahbeg Singh) is now dead.....killed by his own army after he turned against them, rightly or wrongly.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by somnath »

^^^

Was Gen Shahbheg Singh involved in the covert ops predating the war? Didnt know that either, though I did know he was decorated in the war..His is a sad case, but it surprises me how people get swayed so much by the rabble rousing of a lunatic!
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

Shahbeg Singh was involved big time. Bangladesh owes a lot to this man and so does India despite how he met his fate.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by RayC »

Shahbeg Singh, I believe, was passed over for promotion.

Maybe that is why he was frustrated.

Another example of unusual things one can do when frustrated and ignored!
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Rahul M »

there is a long discussion on this aspect of his career in the archived thread noted generals of India. apparently regimental jealousies played a role.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by KiranM »

Rahul M wrote: IIRC amir khan alleged that the lost device(were there two devices or am I getting old ?) was in fact stolen by the dirty yindoos to gain access to the material inside.
The 1st device was nuke powered which was lost. They later planted a gas operated device. So your memory is correct. :lol:
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by KiranM »

Raja Bose wrote: It was covert operations but not necessarily a Special Forces operation. Actually, initially the MB fellows for all their bravado, did not want to go back after some initial skirmishes and given a bloody nose by the Pakistani Army. So initially to boost their confidence and stiffen their resolve....certain 'other' people disguised as MB went in.
IIRC the SFF did undertake ops which fall under the realm of special ops (including blowing up an important bridge) in Chittagong Hill Tracts. I had posted in Military Miscellaneous thread a link to a comprehensive review of 1971 war by a firangi birader. It included few details of SFF deployment.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

Ray sir,

It goes much deeper than that. He was stripped off his pension benefits by being dismissed one day before his retirement! He tried to go thru the courts but nothing happened. This was no average soldier but a brilliant man in most aspects, a shrewd tactician and great athlete. In the end he turned his wrath against his own soldiers stopping even the elite para commandos in their tracks....the death trap at Akal Takht with those murderous machine gun nests on both sides of the approaches were his idea.
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