Indian Real Estate Sector

[Bade]

rohitvats, thanks for the explanation and getting rid of my despair that rupee may hit 100:1 ratio with dollar with time and that my investments already there would not mean much if I ever have to repatriate back the proceeds of a sale for any emergency.

OTOH, if it is all black then the widespread price rise not limited to centers of commerce means, there is no need to fish for black in swiss banks as it is all converted to brick and mortar onlee within the confines of the republic.

[rohitvats]

rohitvats, thanks for the explanation and getting rid of my despair that rupee may hit 100:1 ratio with dollar with time and that my investments already there would not mean much if I ever have to repatriate back the proceeds of a sale for any emergency.

OTOH, if it is all black then the widespread price rise not limited to centers of commerce means, there is no need to fish for black in swiss banks as it is all converted to brick and mortar onlee within the confines of the republic.

Sirji, please consider one simple example (there you go again... ): The development in the residential segment is a self-financing model. The developer at best takes loans (and that too not always) for construction purpose for relatively short period of 24-36 months. And residential segment is the biggest chunk of entire RE Industry in India. All the money into this system is coming from within the desh...and as I explained sometime back, the big fish invest during land stage and using their connections, channel the development in a direction (the Master Plan formulation comes in handy here) where they 'coincidentally' hold land banks. Why do you think Bangalore Airport was made in Devanahalli? Other sharks (read big players with black money) come in when projects are conceptualized - they have share in the SPV for the investment made and accordingly get returns. When I can make 30%-40% return on my investment in India, why will I put money in Swiss Banks?

[RamaY]

Rohitvatsji,

^ your above post goes slightly against your previous post regarding commercial RE. we see people getting 30-40% ROE in some scenarios, but they also have fixed assets that hardly give 6-7% ROE.

There is black money, and there is BLACK MONEY. The first variety is is held by 2nd and 3rd tier black-babus, who cannot open swiss/bwiss accounts. This is fueling local RE market. These black money amounts are in the range of 1-100 crores, at maximum. Even the larges land banks by these state actors is limited to 10-100s of acres.

Then you have the non-state actors. This BLACK MONEY comes mainly from defense deals, M&A etc., and this goes in '000s of crores. Only few bada babus, businessmen, their brokers etc., have the access to swiss/bwiss accounts.

Of a billion people, hardly 5-10000 people might have swiss accounts. This money is in $,00Bs and cannot be appropriated by aam-admi when * hits the fan. Everything else is a fair game for aam-admi because it creates local employment, financial activity.

JMHT

[rohitvats]

Rohitvatsji,

^ your above post goes slightly against your previous post regarding commercial RE. we see people getting 30-40% ROE in some scenarios, but they also have fixed assets that hardly give 6-7% ROE.

No Sir, it does not. When I said Commercial RE, I clearly mentioned office space segment. The 6%-7% yield is worked out basis the capital value of such RE Asset and the expected rental which can be achieved.The 30%-40% ROI is in case someone invests in residential real estate projects with a bit sane valuation of land (and not even the historic purchase price, which is rock bottom). RE focused PE Funds in India, the most clean investors in RE Segment, don't touch a project if the pre-tax IRR is less than 25%. Simple onleee....

There is black money, and there is BLACK MONEY. The first variety is is held by 2nd and 3rd tier black-babus, who cannot open swiss/bwiss accounts. This is fueling local RE market. These black money amounts are in the range of 1-100 crores, at maximum. Even the larges land banks by these state actors is limited to 10-100s of acres.

The investment happens at various stages. (1) During purchase of land bank (2) infusing equity in the development of the project (3) purchase of assets. Your biggest fish, like India's son-in-law, are rumored to come in at stage 1 because they also have the political power to influence the development corridors are marked in a certain direction. Other big players like ministers and very senior babus with big share of pie come in at 2nd stage. As you rightly pointed out, the local Class II/III/IV employees come in stage 3 when asset sales happen. These are ones caught with multiple plots and apartments and couple of kilograms of gold in bank lockers.

Coming to the investment part - a group housing project of 10 acres and with FSI of 2 (total built-up area potential-~870K sq.ft) and per sq.ft of construction cost @1800 per sq.ft., will require ~160-180 crores (EXCLUDING LAND). Most of this is recovered from the buyers itself through the Construction Linked Payment Plan which is front loaded.



Then you have the non-state actors. This BLACK MONEY comes mainly from defense deals, M&A etc., and this goes in '000s of crores. Only few bada babus, businessmen, their brokers etc., have the access to swiss/bwiss accounts.

These are ones which are sophisticated players who take stakes in project.

JMHT

[Theo_Fidel]

Rohit is right.

As I have pointed out undeveloped land is still available for a song. It is once the middle men get hold of it that $600,000 apartments start showing up.

[vina]

Rohit is right.

As I have pointed out undeveloped land is still available for a song. It is once the middle men get hold of it that $600,000 apartments start showing up.

Undeveloped land is available for a "song" for a good reason, it will remain that way for a long time to come. The land that is along the "development" corridors are either already bought up (by the politicos and allied interests) and /or fully priced in.

Of course you can buy land and live in "splendid isolation" in a farmstead which is 5 km from the nearest main road along a rutted road that will be un passable during the rainy season , you can build a farm house, get an SUV and live.

But forget about a quick commute to work, school bus for your kids etc. The politico types and heavy hitters will either "drive" investment /business to that area or will only invest in such identified areas. Someone talked about Devanahalli airport. There was extremely strong efforts by very interested parties to prevent it from coming up there, but rather direct it to Ramnagaram where it is rumored that a heavy hitter had very sizeable land holdings. Same with NICE corridor, where every politico bought land along the corridor thinking of "ribbon" development (reducing the road to a typical innercity one in India with cars and trucks parked on dabhas on both sides), unfortunately NICE insisted on protected access road and the politicos lost land /couldn't influence alignment. Result, the IT/Vity big wigs had to put massive efforts to see that the airport came about at all and at Devenahalli and NICE road links are fully not done with gaps at major intersections with say Bannerghatta road etc and the Mysore part of it has been scrapped.

In fact, when the IT/vity boys put up serviced apts /hotels inside their campuses for their employees transiting/visiting/guests, there was a huge ruckus from the politico types, who saw it as a loss of potential "rents" . The "logic" went like this, why do YOU want to put up these things. You should do IT/Vity onree. We have the land and WE will put up serviced apts , and you should send your folks to our apts! . That was a big source of pow-pow/dishum-dishum between the Revered Co and the 'Umble farmer.

[Singha]

>> with gaps at major intersections with say Bannerghatta road

that issue is finally getting solved. the bridge over bannerghatta road is nearing completion. its anyone's guess when it will be opened though , legal issues could still stall its opening, as a powerful politician owning land around gottigere lake was trying to sabotage it.

but given the tolls on BMIC are the highest/km in India, I am very disappointed by the quality of the tarmac. at 100kmph you will easily feel the irregularities and subsided zones in the pavement. the NHs to tumkur, chennai, salem sides have far better paving.

[Sachin]

I have said this before, the terrain, climate and environment does not support existence of heavy industries in KL, nothing to do with laziness or otherwise of the people.

Perhaps I did not draft this correctly. I am not accusing Mallus (or Bongs) to be lazy. We have seen numerous cases where people from these states have done extremely well, but in many cases once they are out side their own mother states. Kerala cannot have big industries. But how about at least knowing what industries may actually survive there? Yes, Tourism does well. But how many people can tourism as an employer absorb?

The trend even I see now is that the people expect the "state" to do every thing for them. The craze for a state govt. job is still very high. Now this certainly is not because of the zeal to help people. It is for getting a job, with no risks involved. So this is where I crib about the ills of "socialism". A state doling out welfare to all and sundry, with nothing much received in return.

In the case of Blur, good weather is a great attraction. But the umpteen engg colleges did create that pathway for migration too for people from all over.

This is exactly what one of my managers told me over a cup of coffee, two weeks back. Bengaluru had a large number of colleges and people from all states landed up here. So for any industry to start off in Bengaluru, people were not an issue. Plus the state government also seems to have a liking for such things, and helped the budding industries like IT (Kerala commies at this time were throwing out computers, stating jobs will be lost ). My manager said that Pune too had the advantage of too many colleges and students moving in there. Where as in KL we did not have any such thing. Today as I see it, it is very few Keralites themselves who wish to move to KL from say Bengaluru or Chennai. Kerala remains a destination primarily to attend family functions, Onam etc. etc.

But I guess I am going totally OT..

[SaiK]

substandard quality is with the requirement or a scam. for every project, we should have a QC inspection done to release the final payment to the contractor. inspection team should include public representatives [with clean records] nominated from area, zone, street or elsewhere or third party from central or other states.

people should have voice in the final payments to public contracts. that will put an end to substandard quality in construction.

[Theo_Fidel]

Vina,

Agree only. But see I not going to be living on this land. I want to get in on the ground floor before all the dishum-dishum starts. Like I said I think ocean access is hugely undervalued at present. The OMR apartments at a about 1-km in-shore and charge in crores. Land on the coast is undeveloped and that same 1-2 crore buys you several grounds of land. I guess it is a risk I'm taking only.

[Singha]

are there any restrictions ecological or tsunami about large scale apts on the coast or buildings beyond a certain height?
unlike the rich west, and esp in chennai , the brutal climate ensures that not too many people can sit on a beach in the day though at night they might come out if the beach were good and had shops nearby.
indians are not hot on watersports or swimming in the sea either, and almost none own pvt pleasure craft. so the sea is usually left as is...barring the odd "resort" or fishing village.

[Bade]

Sachin, yes education sector was vital. KL lagged really behind there 20 yrs ago and even now for that matter. Without any higher educational institutions to speak about the bus was never there for KL to climb into and ride on when the boom was happening. Remember Nambiar saar was the first one to come with TechnoPark way before even ITPL, but without the critical mass it really did not take off. Even if KL was capitalist to the core with no labor issues (as I said there are strikes even in Gujarat) IT would not have made much of a dent to the local economy. How do you get talented people from all over India to move there ? That is the biggest obstacle and maybe the reason why Chennai vs Coimbatore too to some extent that was alluded to before.

What it has to do now is focus on attracting Research oriented institutes. IISER & IIST is one, may be IIT would be the next. More similar ones in the works and wait for another 20-30 yrs for the next cycle of innovation and boom before anything happens there. Meanwhile build up on infrastructure like roads, HSR, metro before talent gets attracted and most importantly become cosmopolitan in nature. All that dubai exposure will make it to some extent.

[Bade]

Like I said I think ocean access is hugely undervalued at present. The OMR apartments at a about 1-km in-shore and charge in crores. Land on the coast is undeveloped and that same 1-2 crore buys you several grounds of land. I guess it is a risk I'm taking only.

How do you get around Coastal zone regulation ?

[SaiK]

I don't think we have good setup for security on the beaches., from technology to products. bay watchers are required to create beach sports.

[Theo_Fidel]

CRZ only prohibits in 'sensitive areas'. Mangroves and such. Previously developed land, such as Casaurina plantations are open for development. WRT climate on the sea shore Chennai is no different from Miami, maybe a bit little less humid and fewer Cyclones. In any case there are trees just in from shore for shade. Tsunami only means we might have to build on 12 foot stilts. But the first floor is parking in any case.

[SaiK]

future tsunami can hit with a >25ft wave.

[Singha]

it depends...happens if there is a shallow enclosed bay or long shallow stretch of sea...but chennai coast seems to slope down quite steeply which is safer.

[Theo_Fidel]

Yes. In some areas particularly Kalpakkam the water came up to 10m but that was right on the ocean. But the 12 foot thing is what the cyclone shelters are designed on. In any case Cyclones create 25-30 foot storm surges when they come ashore. Globally this has not affected seashore property values, just insurance costs.

[rohitvats]

<SNIP> What it has to do now is focus on attracting Research oriented institutes. IISER & IIST is one, may be IIT would be the next. More similar ones in the works and wait for another 20-30 yrs for the next cycle of innovation and boom before anything happens there. Meanwhile build up on infrastructure like roads, HSR, metro before talent gets attracted and most importantly become cosmopolitan in nature. All that dubai exposure will make it to some extent.

Bade saar, wonderfully put - something we call as building the 'ECOSYSTEM' for ensuring the growth of the technology or such high value industries. The infrastructure is just one part of it - the all important Human Resource is actually the Achilles Heel here....and developing this aspect is long term game. Any city wanting to evolve into hi-tech industry of any sort needs to act as magnet for talent - everything else follows naturally. Hyderabad, Bengaluru, Chennai and Gurgaon are huge magnets for HR; I've had to answer the question of feasibility of setting up IT infra (SEZ/Office Space) for many Tier II/III Cities as part of what I do - and each time I talk to IT/ITES Companies, their most common refrain is in terms of HR potential.

And guess what, the challenge is at real senior level or entry+middle management level - the youngsters simply want to go to larger cities to work and play. They don't want to work in cities like Mysore or Mohali - simple as that.

There is another very important factor in evolution of any city as IT/ITES hub - the diversity of companies.

From Commercial RE perspective, there are three type of companies in IT/ITES - (a) large Indian companies like TCS/WIPRO/Infosys (b) Large and small US/Europe based companies (c) Small Indian companies. Each of these companies has different impact on the Commercial RE segment.

(a) Large Indian companies tend to go for large captive campus development - and they usually get the land allotted to them by the state government. The biggest benefit they bring to a place is in terms of developing visibility and forming the nucleus around which rest of the IT/ITES segment can grow. However, the only play left for locals here is contract for construction of such campuses.

(b) Foreign companies - these are the real movers and shakers as far as commercial real estate is concerned. No matter what the size of requirement, they will never own real estate assets. Companies like IBM, CISCO, Accenture etc are among the biggest space occupiers in the country holding multi million sq.ft of portfolio. These are the ones driving the development in cities like Bangalore and Chennai. As per one analysis I did in 2010, some 12 odd companies accounted for ~40% of commercial real estate space in Bangalore (the stock was somewhere around 40-50 million sq.ft). However, they are the most risk averse and will not go to Tier II cities - unless, business forces them. Most of them are happy to be in Tier I and established centers.

(c) Indian smaller companies - very less impact on the commercial real estate segment. Low footprint in terms of portfolio of space.

One big reason for disparity in space portfolio is because of PER EMPLOYEE SPACE ALLOCATION - for most western companies, it can range from 100 sq.ft to 150 sq.ft per employee; in case of Indian companies (especially low end BPOs), it can be as low as 45 sq.ft per employee. The Indian average would be between 70-80 sq.ft per employee.

[SaiK]

Globally this has not affected seashore property values, just insurance costs.

I guess there is more big ice caps to melt.. and even if the last few blocks melt, the ocean would not raise anything higher than 6" over next century. So, it should be really good time for beach side REs.

Most of the existing beach REs are highly populated, and occupied for any organic growth, especially around cities.

[Bade]

rohitvats, tier-ii cities on their own may not be able to compete with established big players. If they are in proximity to other tier-ii cities with complementary assets then may be they can challenge too the established structure. In that sense the proposed HSR links between west coast cities like TVM-Kochi-Calicut-Coimbatore and maybe even M'lore will bring them closer.


SaiK, most of ice in the northern hemisphere is floating, not on land. So its melting will not affect sea level rise much. When Antartic ice melts it will have a huge impact.

[hnair]

Bit late to the discussion, but from personal experience in working with a Prefecture of Silicon Valley to start a castle in Trivandrum....

Bade-saar, is 400% correct - the things that mattered in this story below, with the Daimyo of one of the largest Prefectures of the Valley (headed by the Last Shogun of Silicon Valley ) are these in descending order:
- attrition reduction measures and ability for a corporate to set in place the same
- Research orgs (VSSC, IISER, IIST, RGCB etc helped)
- IT eco-system with successful startups (UST Global), product firms (Suntec, IBS) etc
- Affordable housing
- kids' educational institutions
- leisure and recreation
- general infrastructure

What they did not care about:
- facilities cost.
- salary
- commies
- hartal

The entire effort was a great example of prominent people from LDF (Shree VS Achuthanandan, the then CM) and UDF (Dr Tharoor, the current MP and favorite of BRF ) coming together and dividing the labour (as well as credits - they are politicians of course and dont grudge them). I was in the video-meeting when Dr Tharoor did a world-class job of pitching it to the powerful Daimyo. Happiest day when the Daimyo informed that the reclusive Shogun has nodded his head in accepting the new castle!!

Later on, the Daimyo's captains complimented the execution of their vision of castle by a certain unassuming Technopark babu of great calibre. When I was chatting with them later, they compared him with Shree CBNaidu's team and said they are hiking up the number of foot-soldiers from 200 to 500 (that is in less than a year). So Shree VS too did his part in empowering the babu to do his work.

Later on, the Prefecture served as an excellent case-study and referral (The Daimyo was nice to provide that ), that the team racked up two more big MNCs.

So Sachin-saar, not bad for a commie CM and his blood-foe (Dr Tharoor) belonging to a much maligned socialist, anti-bijinejj paradise, eh?

Trivandrum, I believe at this point, has that breakthrough Product MNC (Prefecture mentioned) and the breakthrough local IT startup (UST Global). Of course, it will never challenge any of the major cities like Blr, Hyd or NCR and it should not. But if anyone wants an alternative working place that is more of a laid-back place near the sea, they get it without loosing out on things like housing, kids' education, quality living etc. Sort of like an Austin or Portland or Seattle (hippies, chai-shops, music, yoga, beach, aerospace, universities etc) not challenging Silicon Valley, Mass or SD/LA.

It is up to the current Kerala govt to not mess it up. But mess it up they will, with their ever lasting love affair with Middle-east Unless the current CM goes and executes on his yearning for a lasting legacy. Technocity project is still going forward with some momentum, thanks to unseen folks pushing it forward inch-by-inch (under the radar) and media (fortunately) neglecting it. The slow education of all parties in the equation takes time, but it has been done before and can be done again. It needs a certain non-mercantile mindset and near-infinite patience.

On a different topic about Indian IT, this is purely my IMHO: That ex-head honcho of the most revered company has certain pretentious thoughts about his role in the Bangalore story. But IMHO, the heroic guy who did the act of forging a unified story for Bangalore, around the pioneering product MNCs and local IT out-sourcing successes (like Infy, Wip) during those early days is the great Shree Dewang Mehta (PBUH). Anyone who had the pleasure of meeting him will have some story about his sheer awesomeness and a certain unassuming enthusiasm that is infectious. He mingles effortlessly with both the grunts (to get the pulse) and with suits out of MG Road, SandHill and Wall street. A true kensai, who thought beyond BSE or NASDAQ (so I would like to think of his memory).

(edited a bit)

[SaiK]

yes.. met dewang mehta ji.. 1994ish..times. only few one line talks.. very sharp guy. he could have been our donald trump.

KL should rope in ex honchos, and lure them in.. example: e sreedharan.

[svinayak]

yes.. met dewang mehta ji.. 1994ish..times. only few one line talks.. very sharp guy. he could have been our donald trump.

Dewang was being tracked by the western media. Was worried on the coverage given to him

[hnair]

Acharyaji, indeed. His highly unexpected death in Australia, is how shall I put it, unexplained....

[Singha]

indeed. i have heard only great things about him from people who interacted personally. PBUH.

[vina]

SaiK, most of ice in the northern hemisphere is floating, not on land. So its melting will not affect sea level rise much. When Antartic ice melts it will have a huge impact.

Ah .. But Bade Mian, as a Fyzzicist, you should take a look at Fyzzics before putting statements like that.

If the Northern Hemisphere ice is all floating and not on land, and while the Antartic ice is all on land and not on sea, if all the ice in both the northern and southern poles melt and if the total amount of ice in both the north and south poles are the same, then there is no problem innit ?

When the floating ice melts, the sea level FALLS whereas the land ice melts, the sea level rises . So net-net, if there were equal amounts of ice in the poles, the effect is zero no ?

So, you CAN ignore all that global warming balderdash and buy the land near the coasts!

[Singha]

antarctic ice sheet is reported to be upto a mile thick and its all above the water on land. the artic ice is not that thick and is already submerged partially, so any gains from total melt might not equalize all or most the antarctic ice melting and flowing into the sea.

on the +ve note, antarctica can be made a penal mining colony for TSP and other miscreants.

[Bade]

vina, you are saying what I said but claim that ice shelf in both North and South hemisphere could be equal, but is that the case ? Do you know for sure ?

Besides, coastal innundation and sea level rise has many other factors involved, including local subsidence. So buying coastal lands can be done only on a case by case basis, not due to effects or otherwise of global warming alone.

And not just that all that melt water should affect the ocean salinity with some consequences for the deep ocean circulation and warm currents. If that stops then higher latitudes can freeze over. So the coastal areas will be affected in a different way.

[SaiK]

but how come arctic melt will make the sea level FALL?

agree.. the antarctic melt down will bring disaster to earth. forget even the deccan plateau. run to himalayas, nilgiris and the vindyas. KL has lot of hilly places, and hence safe.

terrain helps here bade.

[Theo_Fidel]

Folks are forgetting Greenland ice. Great ice cube of the North. Just Greenland alone will raise oceans by 30 feet IIRC. Essentially disappear Chennai right there. Or become the new Venice of the East.....

I thought when floating Ice melts it only reduces volume by 10%. Since this 10% is above ocean anyway net net should be zero, nah.. ..what am I missing.

BTW the latest studies from Antartica show that the cap itself is seeing increased precipitation and hence getting deeper, it is the sea ice that is getting unstable...

Since the last ice age maximum 6000-12000 years ago, the seas have risen about 300 feet. If all the present ice melted maximum is only about 150 feet more, so we are already living on a flooded planet.

[SaiK]

I think that would be the case for other coastal cities too.. Mumbai especially. Desis have been considering mumbai is the only place in India, where they need to improve infrastructure, and treat other cities as step child places.

It is high time, we think comprehensively and distributing not just infrastructure, but commerce, trading, and industries as well.

[Bade]

Deccan plateau is quite high on the average. As you travel down from Mysore via Nilambur to KL, it is a precipitous drop of a 1km or more. B'lur is sitting on the plateau land. So if KL hills are safe so is the plateau.

Saik, try an expt. Fill a glass of water to the brim with ice floating in it. Wait and see what happens. Take the same amount of ice in another glass and collect all the melted ice now, water. What will happen if you add that to the other glass with water and fully melted ice. Before you do that notice the drop in water level and measure it.

[SaiK]

mm.. bad memories for me.. I thought by weight same displacement., so ice must be less denser.

[Bade]

The Greenland ice sheet (Kalaallisut: Sermersuaq) is a vast body of ice covering 1,710,000 square kilometres (660,235 sq mi), roughly 80% of the surface of Greenland. It is the second largest ice body in the world, after the Antarctic Ice Sheet. The ice sheet is almost 2,400 kilometres (1,500 mi) long in a north-south direction, and its greatest width is 1,100 kilometres (680 mi) at a latitude of 77°N, near its northern margin. The mean altitude of the ice is 2,135 metres (7,005 ft).[1] The thickness is generally more than 2 km (1.24 mi) and over 3 km (1.86 mi) at its thickest point. It is not the only ice mass of Greenland – isolated glaciers and small ice caps cover between 76,000 and 100,000 square kilometres (29,344 and 38,610 sq mi) around the periphery. Some scientists predict that climate change may be near a "tipping point" where the entire ice sheet will melt in about 2000 years.[2] If the entire 2,850,000 cubic kilometres (683,751 cu mi) of ice were to melt, it would lead to a global sea level rise of 7.2 m (23.6 ft).[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_ice_sheet

[vina]

mm.. bad memories for me.. I thought by weight same displacement., so ice must be less denser.

Density of water is 1 gm/cc (by basic definition of gram) (lets assume that the oceans are totally fresh water). Since ice floats, it is less dense than water, say X gm/cc.

So using these facts assume that a gram of ice is floating in a cup of water, find out how much will be the resulting volume of water and will the water level fall or rise.

Also, to make the problem more interesting, what if the ice had an air bubble. Will the water level rise or fall. What if the ice had a small piece of iron it. Will the water level rise or fall ?

These basically are 9th/10th std level questions. I think the CBSE text book had these questions.

[SaiK]

interesting.. me was on: the volume of water being displaced should have been the volume of water melted from ice. thanks vina.

[Bade]

Density of water is 1 gm/cc (by basic definition of gram) (lets assume that the oceans are totally fresh water). Since ice floats, it is less dense than water, say X gm/cc.

As an ingineer you got to be more exact than a fizzicist

[hnair]

Real Estate thread became cage-fight about "highly treacherous non-linear curves during phase change" that are like red rags to phyjjisistahs?

[Bade]

saar, just trying to have some secular fun onlee. I do not want to go near the OT thread. Kya kare.

It is up to the current Kerala govt to not mess it up. But mess it up they will, with their ever lasting love affair with Middle-east Unless the current CM goes and executes on his yearning for a lasting legacy.

Wanted to ask you on this ? Are you referring to Smart City project and if so why so negative, after all it should fit in the spokes in a wheel policy of distributed development of GoKL.