Bharat Rakshak

Posted: **27 Jun 2009 00:58**

And in this context neither do I ; the topic at hand is about the utility of the 'EXAMS' itself not the score per se.

You can have grades assigned and still do all the testing/exams (internal) as many as you want to keep tab on the absorption rate of the students in your class. A famous or infamous (depending on which side of the grade curve you were

) Prof at IIT used to give us pop quizzes with absolutely no warning. It could be any day, any time within the approximately one hour class period too.

Darn could not even go to sleep in the class due to fear of missing the pop quiz.

As for the utility of exams which have a large variance in how they are administered across different states less said the better. It is a bigger nightmare, than if you lose fair and square in a well coached but admired program like the JEE entrance. When I took my wonderful looking total of Shri 420 marks across the border to Kerala, someone promptly re-normalized that number lower, claiming lower standards in Karnataka and put me in the waiting list

for my Pre-Degree Course. The same happened when I moved north again with my unbelievable perfect scores on PCM and there was some discussion as to what to do with my application.

The time lags in results from one board coming out and admission processes and deadlines in other boards, domicile requirements etc made sure that this abdul never could get into the much revered professional courses. It is another matter that the abdul was ignorant of what waited him after making into this club. So being ignorant was bliss onlee.

Posted: **27 Jun 2009 02:04**

Congress unhappy with Sibal’s exam plan

Panel, Sibal differ on foreign varsity - Yashpal puts degree rider

...
In a recommendation that could embarrass the government, the panel has argued that liberalising visa restrictions to allow foreign scholars access to Indian universities may prove more beneficial than letting in foreign universities.

The panel has also recommended in its report submitted to Sibal yesterday that any foreign university that sets up a campus here should give an “Indian degree” and follow all rules and regulations binding on Indian universities.

“One has to keep in mind the fact that universities grow in organic connection with their social, cultural and geographical surroundings and even the best of them cannot be transplanted somewhere else and expected to do as well,” the panel has said.
...
Earlier this month, visiting US under-secretary of state William Burns met Sibal to discuss the bill. Sibal is learnt to have informed Burns that the government was keen on US investment in Indian education.
...

Posted: **27 Jun 2009 07:29**

Class X exam is extremely useful in deciding early on, which stream the student is to follow: Sciences, Commerce, Humanities, etc. This may have its own drawbacks, but at least it gives the students some focus, and narrows down their choices.

Can't this be done with Aptitude Tests?

Posted: **27 Jun 2009 07:36**

I have a query regarding usefulness of the information learnt in class X. As future voters(if not in any other capacity) arent children supposed to know atleast a limited amount of history/geography/civics and as all of us know if there are no exams 90% of the students would ignore these courses as they know they could always get away with it. Isnt this bad ?

Posted: **27 Jun 2009 07:48**

Tanaji wrote:The quality of today's engineering graduates from B tier institutions and below (i.e. excluding RECs, IITs) needs no comment. The IT industry is on record deploring the quality of the graduates.

The problem here is slightly different. Using a crude analogy, Indian IT industry needs the equivalent of automobile mechanics who will service something like the Nano. But the education system produces engineers who will design and build the Nano. Results in endless frustration all around - the engineers have poor job satisfaction and the IT industry has to "train" the graduates to work on the latest models.

Posted: **27 Jun 2009 08:25**

suryag wrote:I have a query regarding usefulness of the information learnt in class X. As future voters(if not in any other capacity) arent children supposed to know atleast a limited amount of history/geography/civics and as all of us know if there are no exams 90% of the students would ignore these courses as they know they could always get away with it. Isnt this bad ?

The esteem to which the transcripts and certificates are held is unbelievable in Indian context. They have their place but not anymore. Let me illustrate an example in a little while, in which the psyche of the population is brainwashed, that the certificate takes the precedence over the actual capacity. If one does not have a certificate one is automatically assumed to be untalented to accomplish even many of the braindead tasks, let alone other tasks which need finesse.
That in today's paradigm, unless one has a certificate for architecture/civil engineering, one is basically considered useless. Have seen many uncertified people who are much talented and produce amazing results in the fields of their passion be it building construction, Ham operators etc.
The master ancient architectural wonders created in India is an obvious glaring example where the master builders and craftsmen by today's paradigm would be uncertified. Amazingly, with all the certificates from esteemed institutions, the architectural landscape created by these certificate holders in India does not measure up to the earlier generations of uncertified.

The example: Even the uncertified and unqualified Mu.Ka had the audacity to make a mockery of the question about Rama holding engineering certificate to build the Ramar sethu.
Ah the certificate!!! It automagically turns anyone into learned category.

The point is not about doing away with exams. Exams as at any other level is sufficient. It is important that Exam as conducted at X level, presently as a filtering system is unnecessary at this stage. This is barely the age where one is denied the “meal ticket (certificates are basically serving that purpose in todays context)”. It is where lot of young people are cast aside and away unnecessarily from life's rat race. There are myraid ways to expose the kids at that age to get a feel for the level of competition, just as is done in sports. Various intra school, inter school, district level, state level comptetions will serve the purpose. But acting as a filtering gate at that age is not correct. That is body blow to young budding to be classified as 'untalented' at that age.
Yes, once one gets that “meal ticket (certificate) one actually guards it zealously, because the system is so loaded that one kid is entitled to one copy of the certificate for life. Need more copies of transcripts/certificates in the age of computers it is still a nightmare.

In Karnataka, there used to another similar filtering aimed at 7th standard kids, where the exams were conducted at district level. An even earlier stupid system to kill the budding aspirations. A filtering gate at 7th standard. Thankfully, that was scrapped.
So having said all that, kids taking exams as they would at 9th level should not make them any less intelligent than the present level.

Posted: **28 Jun 2009 07:07**

JwalaMukhi wrote: In Karnataka, there used to another similar filtering aimed at 7th standard kids, where the exams were conducted at district level. An even earlier stupid system to kill the budding aspirations. A filtering gate at 7th standard. Thankfully, that was scrapped.
So having said all that, kids taking exams as they would at 9th level should not make them any less intelligent than the present level.

I thought this was a barbaric system and am glad that VII std exam was scrapped. Karnataka is the only state in which the education system is like Paki terrorists - if you ban the LeT it reappears as JuD. (don't ask about my kids - both went to the CBSE board

)

Karnataka has an SSLC (Class X exam) board and a separate PUC (Class XII) exam board - both separate from CBSE and ICSE who have Class X and Class XII boards of their own. As I pointed out earlier the pass rate for the Class X exam this year was 70%. But forget this year. Go back to 2007. In 2007 about 65% of the students passed the X exam. That 65% have written the PUC (class XII) exam in 2009 and only 44% have passed. In other words - in Karnataka's system only 15% or so of the children who wrote the Class X exam have managed to finish class XII. That means that of the 800.000 students who take the Class X exams - only about 100,000 make it past class XII in one attempt.

The system is so bad because it is not a system of education. It is system of hurdles. There are schools with no teachers, and schools with teachers but no teaching. 73 schools in Karnataka this year had a 0% (yes - Zero percent) pass rate in SSLC - that is no child from those schools passed the exam) The kid somehow used to make it to 7th std where many would get eliminated and discouraged. They now make it to tenth where any career plans are thrown out of the window.

Failing Class X is a serious setback to most families in India. Many give up studies (only a few commit suicide). Many families are unable to keep sending children to school for repeat classes - and the child is blamed for stupdity in a system that has given very little education all the way from class 1 to class X and then holds an exams that tells the child "Oh - you're stupid. No more education for you"

But that is the story of the downside - for about 65% of students of the state board in Karnataka.

What about the 35% who eventually make it past Class XII (PUC) in Karnataka?

For them the story gets much better. Karnataka is not a stupid state. It eliminates the "stupids" by class X and class XII. What Karnataka has done is to say "Namma makklanna naavu nodukolutteve" (We will make sure we look after our own kids). Karnataka (when I last checked) had 25% of the engineering college seats in India and Bangalore had 40% of them. So if you live in Bangalore - about 10% of all engineering college seats in India are within and hour's commute for you. And Karnataka holds exams that ensure that those of its kids who actually get past PUC (Class XII) stand a great chance landing an engineering college seat. OK it may not be an IIT - but hey your college will be like 90% of India's colleges - no quality teaching, but you get a degree at the end. And there are plenty of alternative colleges and courses for those who do not get medicine or engineering. But you must get past the Class X and Class XII hurdle/elimination rounds to get here. And the system does not allow most kids to do that.

The bottom line is that by and large, across the majority of schools and colleges in Karnataka, teaching is pathetic or non existent. And with this faulty system children are weeded out in Class X and Class XII, leaving a many students who are only marginally better than many of those who failed. Many of these marginally better performing students get an engineering or medical college seat and get a degree from college that provides only marginal teaching. The reason why Indian kids do reasonably well ultimately is because of their own effort when they are given a chance to use their intelligence. That chance is not given to children who are eliminated at class X and class XII. They are weeded out of the system even before they can think and understand what the system is doing to them

So the amount and quality of teaching is bad from class 1 right up to college degree. With that being the case - why eliminate children at class X and Class XII by holding elimination exams? This is supposed to be education, not Olympic heats or Wimbledon elimination rounds. But class X and Class XII are held as elimination rounds.

Naturally we who are members of the elite don't even notice. Most of us have attended elite schools and fancy colleges and believe that bread exists outside, if not cake. But if you live in India and bother to look at what is happening to the majority of kids - you get a good idea of what is contributing to keeping India down. And remember - I am talking about Karnataka - a state that attracts students from most other states of the country.

Posted: **28 Jun 2009 12:56**

Folks,

Kapil and other corrupt leaders want to make many "fetching" changes in college education and may areas. eg inviting trojans US colleges in India.

To divert the attention, he has raised "cancel Xth class exam" issue - so that people would endlessly discuss on this and meanwhile he can go and implement the fetching changes.

Posted: **28 Jun 2009 16:02**

In a recommendation that could embarrass the government, the panel has argued that liberalising visa restrictions to allow foreign scholars access to Indian universities may prove more beneficial than letting in foreign universities.
.............
Earlier this month, visiting US under-secretary of state William Burns met Sibal to discuss the bill. Sibal is learnt to have informed Burns that the government was keen on US investment in Indian education.

The US has been trying to infiltrate our universities since the last 20 years, from Rajiv Gandhi's time. This UPA government it seems will allow access to the US. This will be nothing short of a disaster.

The real target of Americans is history, social studies and political science departments. You have to see the "scholarship" of these US professors in Ameican universities to realise the amount of poison they spread about Indian society and history. Once these professors arrive in India, they will get direct access to impressionable minds of our students. Till now, they have been brainwashing and de-Hinduising Indian students who land in the US universities. But that is not enough for them. They actually want to land in India itself and tap the core here.

The american government through CIA and state deptt. is carrying out a massive social psyops campaign on Indians to Balkanize the country. Indian history and culture and the self-identity of Indians is being attacked repeatedly by scholarship emanating out of the US university system. The American professors are full integrated into this campaign. As Rajiv Malhotra spoke recently in a seminar, he was shocked to visit an American professor and see a full size map of "Dalitistan" hanging on his office wall. Does the Indian government have any idea what kind of snakes it is letting loose in our country?

Let me quote Rajiv Malhotra here from his speech that he gave at Delhi this Feb.

Afro-Dalit Project

Now what caught me started on this course of understanding America’s intervention with India’s break up was a very interesting meeting I had with a scholar in Princeton University. We were just sitting and having lunch and he has just come back from India and I said “What did you do in India?” And he said “Oh I went there as part of the Afro-Dalit project” So I asked him what is this Afro Dalit project. So he said, “Oh we go to India we do youth empowerment and training programmes” I said “It is very interesting. Can you tell me what it is? Who are the Dalits?” And he said “Well. … They are Africans. They are the blacks of India and the non-Dalits are the whites of India. And this is the black-white history of India which is mirroring the black white history of America. And the Afro-Dalit project is to educate our Dalit brothers.” This was amazing to me. And my whole thesis started when I started searching on Afro-Dalit project.

And there is a whole library of what they are up to and who funds them. And they are very much active in Tamil Nadu building up a whole network of youth empowerment and youth training to give them a contrary sense of history that they are historically a kind of oppressed people and non-religious and so on. The Church has a vested interest in it because if you can dislocate their identity from the rest of India then you can re-programme them and give them a new religion and so on. This is called Dalitstan project.

So I was invited to this scholar’s office. And I saw this map. This is the map of the Dalitstan that was hanging there. On the northern part is Mughalstan which is from Afghanistan, Pakistan and all the way to Bangladesh. This turns out to be what Mullah Omar says when he states that he wants to put the flag of Taliban on the red fort of Delhi and recreate the Mughal Empire. And the southern part of India is Dalitstan and Dravidstan. So these guys are working on it.

So I was very much amazed that nobody is talking about it. Nobody seems to have noticed. Yet these guys have an open project. If you just Google Afro-Dalit you will come across a lot of hits and you yourself can see that. Then I started getting deeper into it and found that there is merit in the thesis that says that the local minorities are being appropriated by global nexuses. Afro-Dalit Project is just one example.

You can read his entire speech on my blog: http://indianrealist.wordpress.com/2009 ... lisations/

What kind of history do you think the above American Princeton professor will actually begin to teach in Tamil Nadu universities once he gets the visa?

Allowing access of US to our universities will be a great threat to our social stability. Another aim of these professors is to become commentators on various social and political issues in India and begin to write in Indian newspapers and magazines as "experts." One such gora professor from Allahabad university has already become an expert on all issues related to BJP and ancient Hindu history. He recently wrote in the "Hindu" paper about how there was no golden age in ancient India and it is all a myth of Hindu nationalists and Hindus really have nothing to be proud of.

If this government allows the US access to our education system, it will prove that UPA government is being ruled by America by proxy and some people on top are on Gora payrolls.

Indians are not understanding: It is not the Pakistanis or Chinese who are the real enemies of India. It is the Anglo Americans. The kind of operations and moves they are making inside India, their plan for our balkanisation is very very clear. Only blind Indian ministers are oblivious to where the real threat is from.

If the UPA govt. gives American professors access to our education system through liberalising visas, then the next government which comes should charge these congress courtiers with treason. This will clearly be a traitorous move of UPA in which it will connive with a hostile foriegn power to trigger break up of India.

Posted: **28 Jun 2009 17:08**

Meanwhile in Karnataka - 70% of the students are failed and eliminated from trying for a college degree by the X and XII exams. The 30% who get through have an excess of colleges to choose from which nobody will touch with a bargepole.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/105 ... dream.html

Several relatively new and brand new engineering colleges have found no takers, despite having vacancies in some of the most coveted specialisations.

The Karnataka Examination Authority officials said, the newer colleges will not find any takers till the casual round of counselling is over. In fact, three colleges, which are on the CET roster for the first time are yet to get off the mark with respect to admissions. The three colleges - PNS Women’s Institute of Technology, Beary’s Institute of Technology and Sri Basaveswara Institute of Technology, together have 360 seats on offer, and are yet to find students from the counselling procedure. Meanwhile, the officials said, more new institutions are likely to come on board.

But students said, they would forego their preferred courses for the institutions of their choice. Kavya, whose rank is 12,971, is certain that even if she does not get an engineering seat in Information Science, a reputed institution is more important. “I am not interested in new colleges. Teachers and placements on offer are more important,” she said.

Rohit, who has secured a rank closer to 16,000, wants to pursue a course in Electronics and Communication, but he thinks that an established institution is more important.

Posted: **28 Jun 2009 17:46**

Brihaspati: Two languages early on (before 6) are perhaps not such a bad idea - bilingualism from early childhood (2-3 years) appears to have positive role in prevention of brain degenerative diseases (well haldi does the job too! ). However, early exposure to many languages are definitely beneficial. Language, music should be the early food for intellectual capacity development. They represent dealing with complexity - that surprisingly are not such a load on young children, who universally appear to pick up languages at a much faster rate than older ones.

AWMTA

. In the laws I have proposed, English begins from age of 4.

And ALL textbooks are biligual -- right page in English and left page in Hindi or local language.

---

The law education, which will start from class-V or earlier or later as parents wish, will improve their writing skills.

---

Maths will be taught using Kumon System.

Posted: **28 Jun 2009 18:55**

I think that every subject should be taught in English since that is what is the international language, and in addition to English literature, regional literature should be taught in the regional language so that one understands one own cultural heritage!

The Communist Bengal govt taught everything in the vernacular with no emphasis on English and Hindi and hence even brilliant students could get no All India jobs or go abroad! The result was frustration and unemployment - the ideal chemistry to ensure staying in power and blaming the Centre for all evils!

Posted: **28 Jun 2009 23:23**

shiv wrote:Meanwhile in Karnataka - 70% of the students are failed and eliminated from trying for a college degree by the X and XII exams. The 30% who get through have an excess of colleges to choose from which nobody will touch with a bargepole.

I am beginning to think that this situation is because our syllabi cover too much ground. As an example, consider this math curriculum from California, which states that calculus is optional prior to college. Surely, that abysmal pass rate would be improved if Indian syllabi in math were dumbed down to California like levels.

Posted: **29 Jun 2009 07:02**

JP's inputs on Yashpal panel report. I cant accept him as a neta, he is too good to be a politician.

Tv5 " Prajalatho Jayaprakash Narayana " on Educational Reforms

Part1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=encZcsf-ts4
Part2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjSo6fhx8B8
Part3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1A43qdHji8
Part4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z470sEZj6w

Posted: **29 Jun 2009 07:03**

vera_k wrote: I am beginning to think that this situation is because our syllabi cover too much ground. As an example, consider this math curriculum from California, which states that calculus is optional prior to college. Surely, that abysmal pass rate would be improved if Indian syllabi in math were dumbed down to California like levels.

I am sure you are right. Like I said - I have a "hands on" experience of what it takes to teach math to children from Class 9 to Class 12. Things have changed a lot in the 3 plus decades since I finished school. The portions are larger and more complex in every subject.

Math can be mastered by practice and even more practice will improve speed, but the child has less than 1 year (in X std) do do all this with trigonometry and quadratic equation to do all this. In the meantime the child also has to mug up the other textbooks as part of study - science, social studies, first and second language.

In the case of my kids - English was not a problem because English has been in the family for 4 generations. But what of others who do not have that advantage?

As for social studies - this year's CBSE X final paper had a question asking about the differences between infant mortality rate in Sri Lanka and India. Concepts like "Infant Mortality rate" and "maternal mortality rate" are things that I did not know about until my third year in medical college.

What we (in India) are doing is:

Burdening our kids massively
Putting them in a "make or break" situation in class X (age 15-16) after which career plans get severely restricted - preventing from following fields in which he has not done so well in class X
Getting parents so desperate that they compel the child to cut down his personal time for sport/recreation to attend special classes from 6 to 7 AM and from 6 to 8 PM
Encouraging a side business of tuition/coaching classes set up by anyone who feels like earning some extra money on the side - with no quality control

It is no surprise that we are producing millions of kids of two categories:
1) This who can't make it beyond 10th and become autorickshaw drivers/ pizza delivery boys
2) "Intelligent"

but blinkered kids with no capability outside of their chosen 3 subjects who spend all their time from class IX to class XII attending classes and mugging.

This has a definite impact on innovation in India. India is adept at producing loyal employees - sophisticated clerks and coolies because we are desperate for our children to grab the "employment" that becomes available immediately after a college education - at age 22 or so. Innovators and multi-skilled people - people who do math and history or science and sociology are not recognized in India. This has not changed in at least 80 years in India.

There is a culture of parents considering two types of kids as "dumb". This who can't get a college education and may be Xth fail. The second category of "dumb" is those who do BSc or BA and do not get into professional courses. Fortunately these problems are widely recognized by educators in India. But doing something about them is not easy. Even the slightest change can affect the fortunes of wealthy and powerful people who make a living out of the current faulty system

Education is such big business in India that the most powerful people are investing in education. For example - if you run a successful hospital - your next business step would be to start a nursing school. So tens of crores exchange hands in the setting up of Engineering and Medical colleges and hundreds of crores exchange hands in the business of "coaching" children to join these educational institutions. any education policy change that restricts these businesses will be opposed.

Posted: **29 Jun 2009 07:09**

Must have been ages since any positive news has been reported for Punjab by media.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Chan ... 713702.cms

Posted: **29 Jun 2009 07:12**

Education is such big business in India that the most powerful people are investing in education. For example - if you run a successful hospital - your next business step would be to start a nursing school. So tens of crores exchange hands in the setting up of Engineering and Medical colleges and hundreds of crores exchange hands in the business of "coaching" children to join these educational institutions. any education policy change that restricts these businesses will be opposed.

In one of the links posted above JP talks about the same situation that you describe Sir

Posted: **29 Jun 2009 07:46**

shiv wrote: Math can be mastered by practice and even more practice will improve speed, but the child has less than 1 year (in X std) do do all this with trigonometry and quadratic equation to do all this. In the meantime the child also has to mug up the other textbooks as part of study - science, social studies, first and second language.

In the case of my kids - English was not a problem because English has been in the family for 4 generations. But what of others who do not have that advantage?

As for social studies - this year's CBSE X final paper had a question asking about the differences between infant mortality rate in Sri Lanka and India. Concepts like "Infant Mortality rate" and "maternal mortality rate" are things that I did not know about until my third year in medical college.

CBSE syllabus is considered to be of much higher standard compared to state syllabus, in Karnataka at least. Maybe some of the states did get it right in terms of burdening students? I too took the state syllabus, but we didn't study trignometry etc in high school. We were introduced to them in PUC. Considering that just 70% pass the SSLC exams in Karnataka whose syllabus is much less than CBSE, is there other things along with the syllabus that we need to look at? What about teacher quality? Many teachers refuse to go to moffusil towns and villages. Absenteeism is a bit high in village schools. And it also takes good teachers to get people interested in a subject. A child might be intelligent, but if the teachers cannot harness it and guide him right at that stage in life, they become averse to that subject later on. Primary school system too should be overhauled. mid-day mean system is a good start to at least attract students to school and keep them there.

Posted: **29 Jun 2009 09:05**

RaviBg wrote: is there other things along with the syllabus that we need to look at? What about teacher quality?

Ravi you have nailed the problem exactly

Today's teachers of children are products of the same faulty education system that existed twenty years ago just as it exists today. neither teachers, nor parents of children, the syllabus setters and the educational institution owners/heads, nor do the children know anything different.

The examination system of learning by rote, punishment for not following a set syllabus, division of knowledge into strict lines to suit engineering/medicine and "everything else" has been followed for decades, if not over a century (in some instances)

In the post independence era Indians with family businesses did not require an education. Their wealth came from business knowledge handed down within the family. The Indian middle classes were formed out of "employment" and that employment came after education. Education was aimed at catering to the biggest employers - mainly engineering, and to an extent medicine. Anyone who failed to do one of these usually found himself jobless or in a less desirable, low paying job. And the education system was the same one designed by the British to recruit people to serve in India - the need to memorize a certain set of texts or notes or mathematical procedures and score a particular percentage in an exam. Over and above this was the need for a child to become an independent earning member as soon as possible to contribute to the finances of a huge joint family. So all education had to be concentrated into the first 16-20 years of life if possible.

So the Indian education system has restricted itself along three narrow lines as a result of this history:

1) Intense concentration or producing doctors or engineers with near zero insight into all the other aspects of a living/working society - which is widely thought to be manned by "failures"

2) Intense pressure to finish all this education by age 21 or 22

3) An examination system that is designed to make points 1 and 2 seem feasible by rigidly restricting education to learning by rote, rigid restriction of subjects, rigid elimination by age, and the active discouragement of any mind that attempts to wander outside the system.

And all our parents, our teachers and our children and our leaders are products of this system. Nobody knows or recognises anything different

A few Indian who have gone abroad for learning in better systems, and have perhaps brought up children in those systems, and who then return to India are able to see the tragedy that is being foisted on the vast majority of our children.

Posted: **29 Jun 2009 16:45**

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/107 ... n-fee.html

Panel decries capitation fee
Shruba Mukherjee, New Delhi, DH News Service:

As the Centre works on a law to punish educational malpractices, a high-profile committee of academics and policy experts has expressed concern about the manner in which merit in higher education is bypassed by mediocrity, courtesy ''unauthorised capitation fees.''
<snip>
* Private institutions charge fees beyond prescribed norms and in many forms of unaccounted levy

*They are unable to provide even minimum competent faculty strength

*These exactions continue because of deficiencies in enforcement instruments and some reluctance at the higher-levels

*There are no guidelines to measure the competence of the investor in starting and managing a technical institution

*Trusts and societies running these institutions are largely family-owned

Posted: **30 Jun 2009 04:23**

The hurdles set is reflection of society where the “Trust Factor” is deliberately set to negative.

The amount of hurdles put in place is almost mind boggling. At the X level, the exams are meant to be intimidating. First of the exam centers are placed at locations with which the kid is unfamiliar with. The kid needs to investigate the place of exam and familiarize with the location. To top it, the location of the seat, in unfamiliar location, that the kid found it in the morning will not be same for the afternoon exam session. Cannot trust the kid from indulging in malpractice, can we?

This system works fine, if one is interested in selecting the best batch of monkeys from the avaiable to fill in need of the monkey handler. Through and through a colonizers' approach to select sepoys when the supply outstrips demand. Well if one had recognized that one is dealing with humans and not a bunch of simians that system would have been scrapped as soon as the colonizers were out. Maybe an indication that still their ghostly presence is in the background and have not completely disappeared.

Basically, the kid is faced with a syllabi that is taught by non-existent teachers usually, then faces question paper set by someone other than the one who supposedly taught the kid, and his exam papers get graded by a completely different person.

The saga repeats even in professional courses in non-IIT type institutions.

Well when a persons worth is defined by the possession of the certificate, failure in classs X system is very harsh on the individual too, apart from the family. The psychological toll this would take on the individual is immense where the failure to qualify in an alien system constantly gnaws and gets painfully reminded in many simple facets of life. The individual is almost relegated to persona non-grata in many many situations. This is very similar to not having a driving license for adults in many driving societies.

Posted: **30 Jun 2009 04:31**

Just an example of the quality of syllabus. At one time, many students in karnataka would fail in the first language, in kannada. Ironically, most of the students were using kannada, as mother tongue, on a routine basis, but fail in that language. It is simply a case of unimaginative syllabus and teaching. I remember studying some “Gamayana Kathe” or something like that in standard 8th about some story regarding fascination with “golden hair” aka blonde hair. Then there was another depressing story about a “drunkard”, who would neglect an innocent bride.

Posted: **30 Jun 2009 08:11**

Degrees Of Heresy

A member's dissenting note to the Yashpal panel report

KAUSHIK BASU
The next five years can be pivotal for India's future if the new government shows the imagination to carry out critical reforms. Take higher education. Till a few decades ago, this flourished thanks to the far-sightedness of our founding fathers, most notably Jawaharlal Nehru. This sector is now faltering not only because India has changed but because it has not. If we want to sustain growth and be a progressive, enlightened nation, change is imperative.

First, it has to be recognised that the quality of education cannot be raised through licensing. We learnt this the hard way in the case of the economy, which, till 1991, withered under the stranglehold of 'industrial licensing'. We must now do the same for education: remove bureaucratic entry-barriers for new colleges and universities. Some of them will be of poor quality, but that is a price we have to pay. The US has many sub-par universities. That does not detract from America's reputation as the world leader in higher education, because it is home to also the world's greatest universities.

Moreover, we forget that the market, with all its faults, plays a role. Most poorly performing colleges, if information about their performance is made easily available, will be competed out of existence. Hence, one activity of a reformed UGC should be to rate universities. Successful nations spend a lot to evaluate and rate their corporations and banks; this is vital for investment. The UGC should, likewise, produce and publicise ratings of and information about all our institutes of higher education.

Second, if a government, no matter how rich, tries to run over 300 universities with equal generosity, as currently in India, it will either have a fiscal meltdown or doom the university system to mediocrity. It follows that we have to allow for the differential treatment of universities and academics. This should be based on objective evaluation so that every individual has the same opportunity. But to expect the same outcome across all is to court failure.

Our existing system is unviable because many nations have switched over to the 'star system'—special salaries and budgets for leading institutes and academics—and also because corporate salaries have scaled new heights. Given these facts (which we may have good reason to dislike), we have little choice if we want our universities to attract ample talent. One possibility is to designate, say, 20 universities as centres of excellence and put them on a higher funding scale; another option is to select a small number of professors in each field from the entire nation and place them on a higher salary and research support. By 'higher salary' I do not mean five or ten per cent higher, but two or three times the regular professorial salary, as China has begun doing.

Third, surreptitious privatisation is a fact of our educational life. This should be brought to the open. Private colleges should be encouraged and allowed to set tuition fees as high as they choose (as long this information is public). Such colleges will end up catering to relatively rich students; but that will enable the state to allocate more money to the colleges and students under its charge.

Should we allow these private colleges to be profit-making organisations owned, for instance, by shareholders? I feel this is worth trying. A common presumption is that, if someone is interested in profit, he cannot be interested in providing good education. This is a fallacy. It is like assuming that, if Tata Motors is interested in profit, it will not be interested in producing a good small car. There are not too many examples of shareholder universities in the world. This can be a pioneering effort on the part of India and, if successful, can cause a huge infusion of funds into our higher education system.What has to be punished is cheating and misinformation—imposing special charges on students mid-stream, false advertising, as many private colleges do.

Finally, we should aim to make India a major hub for university education. Given our historic advantage in higher education and the English language, and our low cost of living, it is possible for India to attract students from around the world, including rich nations. If the tuition fee for foreign students is set at Rs 5 lakh per annum, this will be very attractive since tuition fees are three times that amount in many industrialised nations. This scheme can cause a large infusion of money, making it possible to subsidise Indian students, help tone up our universities by putting competitive pressure and, not the least, enrich our culture and that of other nations.

Posted: **30 Jun 2009 09:58**

shaardula wrote:
Degrees Of Heresy

I cannot grudge this author's original thought process. But the article does nothing to unlock the Gordian knot of school education in India. The problems start with school education which eliminates many in favor of the few as though India's children are all born to take part in a Wimbledon knock-out type elimination process which decides on a few who get college education.

And as a conceptual article it fails to point out the great bias that private (and government) agencies show in starting engineering and medical colleges because of the demand for these lines, and the profits generated, as opposed to a more balanced system in which you can do computers and history, maths and biochemistry, molecular biology and psychology, a degree in mechanical engineering following a basic medical degree, computer programming and music

It is the people who apply mathematical principles in biochemistry or some such oddball combination who lead the world in innovation. Indians shine in the US because they can do this. To reiterate an old rant - India produces any number of coders, but nobody has written a game worth looking at. Our education is unimaginative and outmoded and forces all Indians into a rut. All of us are products of that rut and our personal success is just that - personal and no credit should go to the system.

Posted: **30 Jun 2009 18:20**

shiv, you are hankering for pedagogical excellence when we barely even manage to get literacy. i dunno if you have visited non-urban areas and seen schools there. good news is many the teachers who remain, have a passion and running on hot air called pride, bad news is not many remain. In KA for example, best non-urban schools are in DK. Why bcoz, most places in DK are periurban and it does not take too much to reach manglore, udupi or kundapura. go see non-urban schools in rural mandya and mysore, for example.

btw, about the only thing i will evangelize for, please contribute to akshaya patra and akshara. AP provides mid-day meals and A is working to increase proficiency of schools.

Posted: **01 Jul 2009 07:44**

shaardula wrote:shiv, you are hankering for pedagogical excellence when we barely even manage to get literacy. i dunno if you have visited non-urban areas and seen schools there.

Well guess where I live?

I might be "hankering for pedagogical excellence" but that is only to point out the contrast between where we need to be and where we are. I have a reason to be completely disdainful and profoundly contemptuous of the system. The system cannot change unless there is awareness among people in India that the system is heading the wrong way and that the system needs a thorough shakedown.

That awareness is lacking among common people in India. Anyone you talk to is aware that there are problems. Everyone feels sorry for children who are burdened. Parents of children in non elite schools feel "Oh if only I could send my child to St.XXX school or "#$@ international school..." Parents of children in St.XXX school or "#$@ international school complain that teaching is not good enough and that their child needs tuitions despite their spending Rs 1.5 lakhs a year per child on school. here is a tendency to blame teachers and the school in a situation where the schooling system is blinkered and is, as discussed earlier, geared only towards creating an underclass of failures and a superclass of successes. The "successes" are shown manly two doors - medicine and engineering. It is mind boggling how schools are aiming only to create engineers or doctors. I am amazed that this is still happening after it happened to me 40 years ago.

For a country that is doing that - it is not just parents who demand that their children do that - but the people who run schools, make education policy and other influential people are all agreed in an almost conspiratorial manner that a child who is a "success" and finished X std should take "science" - i.e Physics, Chemistry, Biology and Maths. Those who fail Std X are "failures" and need not be considered for any serious education. And those who cannot do medicine or engineering are "school pass" who are not considered to have much of a future.

What this amounts to is a "rejection" of about 75% of all Indian children who do not become engineers or doctors. There is no guidance for them because very few people know what they can do. Parents are ignorant. Teachers are ignorant. Schools have no idea what these children can do. Very few guides exist that show them the way. Schools and colleges are certainly not interested in the 75% of kids who are "failures".

If you look at BRF today you will find that at least 75% of the members are from among the people who are considered "failures" in India - i.e they did not become doctors or engineers. But hey - I am sure all are doing well - and many doing far far better than the "successful" doctors or engineers. The fact is that career choices even in India go far beyond the "doctor/engineer" paradigm. And because there are other career choices the education system must take into account the fact that different subject combinations are possible, ad that if a child does not perform well in one desired subject in one exam, he should be allowed further chances to improve his scores by redoing an exam in that subject.

But for all this the rigid system of classes linked with subjects will have to go in senior school and junior college. And admissions to professional courses will have to be delinked from rigid subject choices taken in school/junior college.

And above all the Indian mindset that things cannot change or will not change has to go. For that reason I admire Kapil Sibal's gall. Whether anything is achieved or not someone right at the top has made the noise required to wake the system up from slumber. He has cast the first stone and political persuasions aside, I support that.

Posted: **01 Jul 2009 08:24**

shiv wrote: If you look at BRF today you will find that at least 75% of the members are from among the people who are considered "failures" in India - i.e they did not become doctors or engineers. But hey - I am sure all are doing well - and many doing far far better than the "successful" doctors or engineers. The fact is that career choices even in India go far beyond the "doctor/engineer" paradigm. And because there are other career choices the education system must take into account the fact that different subject combinations are possible, ad that if a child does not perform well in one desired subject in one exam, he should be allowed further chances to improve his scores by redoing an exam in that subject.

And above all the Indian mindset that things cannot change or will not change has to go. For that reason I admire Kapil Sibal's gall. Whether anything is achieved or not someone right at the top has made the noise required to wake the system up from slumber. He has cast the first stone and political persuasions aside, I support that.

Tour De Force post Shivji! I am one of the few who had the gall to walk away from an Engineering seat to pursue a 'failure' subject with full backing of my family. I sat for an engineering exam just to prove that I was not a failure and beat nearly all of my 'serious' classmates in the entrance exam. My relatives and family friends suspected me of being a commie or some sort of hippy who was irresponsible and had no hope left for him in his life just because I chose to study a supposedly dull subject because I loved it. I am proud to say that I have outdone all of my peers in the school in terms of my social status and salary. One thing that Oxbridge taught me was that even seemingly simple and 'non-professional' courses can be extremely rigorous and will put almost all 'professional' courses in India to shame. The amount of cutting edge research and the exposure to frontiers of subject was simply not there to be found and it seriously made me think about our claims of having world class universities when we do not produce world class research or Phds barring few exceptions.
Kapil Sibal has lifted the cover off a stinking pile of trash and different people are giving different reactions to it. Some people believe that we deserve to have the trash with us since we are third worlders onlee, others believe that unhygienic trash is good for boosting our immunity while others like you call trash as trash and deserve kudos for that.

Posted: **01 Jul 2009 09:10**

Why are people here cribbing that janta want to become doctors or engineers? Show me a job source which can even theoritically satisfy the millions of graduates coming out other than them? How many universities are there and how many phd seats are there? How many "jobs"(not starting business) pay something which supports an upper middle class lifestyle, with no class distinction, who are not engineers/doctors. How many IAS seats are there?

Any body in India, did they notice that IT for new college entrants did not have the same effect today as was 2-3 years ago? I remember during the dot com bust, IT became second and ECE acquired the top notch. After that IT again became the one to be.

The college education in India is seen as a stepping stone for jobs in India and the people simply follow the jobs. Tomorrow some one please create a constant stream of 1 lakh history professors, you will see the next history will be the new $exy doctor/engineer.

Posted: **01 Jul 2009 09:25**

Most of the discussion is about people like you and me and our opinions.

The boy who works for me and many petty shopkeepers I meet, like the meatboy or the chicken seller are all Class X dropouts since they could not go through with the grind or so they say.

Had they dropped out at Class XII, they would have been better educated and more knowledgeable! They would have been thus better equipped to understand the world.

Posted: **01 Jul 2009 09:28**

ravi_ku wrote:Why are people here cribbing that janta want to become doctors or engineers? Show me a job source which can even theoritically satisfy the millions of graduates coming out other than them? How many universities are there and how many phd seats are there? How many "jobs"(not starting business) pay something which supports an upper middle class lifestyle, with no class distinction, who are not engineers/doctors. How many IAS seats are there?

Any body in India, did they notice that IT for new college entrants did not have the same effect today as was 2-3 years ago? I remember during the dot com bust, IT became second and ECE acquired the top notch. After that IT again became the one to be.

The post fits into the description of "we shall not remove the trash since we are Indians onlee".
I am in India (travel a lot) and hence can tell you that the craze for professional education is just a hidden way of promoting license raj in job market by controlling the amount of licenses (in this case professional degrees). My question is what is so special with an Engineering degree and unprofessional with a maths degree or Economics degree? Oxbridge or Ivy league graduates can aspire to be great finance guys and compete for the same jobs as engineers barring the tech fields. While in India having a BA(H) against your name automatically denigrates you vis a vis an engineer! I have seen IIM A guys doing the same job with same designation in London Banking sector as an Oxford BA(H) Economics Engineering Social Science (EES) guy, mark it Oxford BA(H)= =IIM A PGP and then we have the gall to claim that focussed education is better than some wishy washy engineering , economics and social science mix undergraduate degree.
This is not about being a history graduate or Engineering graduate but about having the choice to do both and arguments like we are like this onlee do not cut it!
PS: I am not a history graduate but do read history for the kicks and I have done my fair bit of maths but not to be a Engineering graduate as my society wanted to straitjacket me into.

Posted: **01 Jul 2009 09:33**

RayC wrote:Most of the discussion is about people like you and me and our opinions.

The boy who works for me and many petty shopkeepers I meet, like the meatboy or the chicken seller are all Class X dropouts since they could not go through with the grind or so they say.

Had they dropped out at Class XII, they would have been better educated and more knowledgeable! They would have been thus better equipped to understand the world.

They are forced to drop out because we allow only few avenues to continue education and compete for worthwhile institutions. We do not have an enabling but a disabling system that we continue to preserve in order to let the current elite hog the seats while your gulley shopkeeper is forced to dropout rather than be given a choice to study shop and inventory accounting as a vocational course in his school. The current system is too elitist and ignores a vast skill pool much to the detriment of our nation. The notion of what goes of mine or this is fair only will be challenged by the very dispossessed guys in the due course and then we shall wonder as to what went wrong?

Posted: **01 Jul 2009 09:38**

If you look at BRF today you will find that at least 75% of the members are from among the people who are considered "failures" in India - i.e they did not become doctors or engineers.

Interesting stats shiv regarding BRF.

(I used to think all our Jingos are from IIT or NIT's and even most chi chi of all the IVY league)

Who said not being an Engg or Doc == failure ; the reason why Engg or a Doc degree is valued because chances of carving out a decent living out of these while still being mediocre is high when compared to humanities or commerce.

It is easy to criticize or pat oneself on the back in the hindsight but decisions with regards to a stream or a career in India are not made based solely on 'what one dreams or wishes to do ' alone; the available opportunities and the probability of making a living out of the chosen career given the huge number of eligible candidates forces people to play '% game' .

This is a fundamental fact today its Engg,Medicine and oflate the YumBee Ayea. tommorrow it might be something else.

Posted: **01 Jul 2009 09:42**

Munna what is the stink you are

whining about ? ; it is great that you pursued a career of your choice and are doing well but that does not mean you speak crap about Engg or medicine .

for instance what do you mean by My question is what is so special with an Engineering degree and unprofessional with a maths degree or Economics degree?

Where and who made such a claim in the first place , you are merely assuming things for whatever reasons.

Posted: **01 Jul 2009 10:02**

munna wrote:
ravi_ku wrote:Why are people here cribbing that janta want to become doctors or engineers? Show me a job source which can even theoritically satisfy the millions of graduates coming out other than them? How many universities are there and how many phd seats are there? How many "jobs"(not starting business) pay something which supports an upper middle class lifestyle, with no class distinction, who are not engineers/doctors. How many IAS seats are there?

Any body in India, did they notice that IT for new college entrants did not have the same effect today as was 2-3 years ago? I remember during the dot com bust, IT became second and ECE acquired the top notch. After that IT again became the one to be.
The post fits into the description of "we shall not remove the trash since we are Indians onlee".

Good, you have removed the most important part of my post. I said create the jobs and the $exy ness will follow.

I am in India (travel a lot) and hence can tell you that the craze for professional education is just a hidden way of promoting license raj in job market by controlling the amount of licenses (in this case professional degrees). My question is what is so special with an Engineering degree and unprofessional with a maths degree or Economics degree?

Absolutely nothing unprofessional about maths, economics, arts, whatever. The speciality of engineering degree is zimple only - more jobs.

A simple question will answer this. How many jobs exist in India where the number of decent applicats for a job are less than
10? Unless you go into phd levels for any discipline, do we have a shortage for ANY discipline. So why are we quibbling about people having a fancy for xyz discipline.

Oxbridge or Ivy league graduates can aspire to be great finance guys and compete for the same jobs as engineers barring the tech fields. While in India having a BA(H) against your name automatically denigrates you vis a vis an engineer!

The reason is too zimple. For an avg student, what is the starting salary for BA(H) and an engineer. Dont talk about you know the "achievers". They will succeed anywhere. Where the avg graduate has a good job progression is the stream which gains the fancy.

I have seen IIM A guys doing the same job with same designation in London Banking sector as an Oxford BA(H) Economics Engineering Social Science (EES) guy, mark it Oxford BA(H)= =IIM A PGP and then we have the gall to claim that focussed education is better than some wishy washy engineering , economics and social science mix undergraduate degree.
This is not about being a history graduate or Engineering graduate but about having the choice to do both and arguments like we are like this onlee do not cut it!

You compare the ivy league of India and talk of fancy? Arent IIMs fancy in India? They are fancy only because they give good jobs. Tomorrow if the job fairs in IIM/IITs attract zero recruiters, the fancy of them will be gone too.

PS: I am not a history graduate but do read history for the kicks and I have done my fair bit of maths but not to be a Engineering graduate as my society wanted to straitjacket me into.

You might be an elite achiever, but do not compare what you have personally achieved to what can be expected out of an avg middle class graduate.

Posted: **01 Jul 2009 10:30**

RayC wrote:Most of the discussion is about people like you and me and our opinions.

The boy who works for me and many petty shopkeepers I meet, like the meatboy or the chicken seller are all Class X dropouts since they could not go through with the grind or so they say.

Had they dropped out at Class XII, they would have been better educated and more knowledgeable! They would have been thus better equipped to understand the world.

Definitely Sir, the discussion is about people like you, me and people in Brf. I know that Shiv will call it the difference between elite and non-elite, but the simple problem is this. Tomorrow say by "magic" every person of the age 20-25 becomes a graduate, what then will the graduates do? Do we have enough jobs for satisfying all of the persons who are that age?

The answer is a big big NO. Forget about us, even US the first world country does not have enough jobs if everybody becomes a graduate. They can manage only with 80% people completing high school.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/ ... census.htm

That is the fact of life. After high school, it is availability of jobs which dictate the number of graduates. How many of the graduates are leaving India? The reason is we dont have enough jobs. Why is not the brain drain affecting too much in India? For a job if there are 101 aspirants, it doesnt matter if 1 aspirant goes off and leaves 100 aspirants. That 1 person leaving is actually better than 100 remaining unemployed in India, now only 99 are unemployed.

Shiv, you are right. The system was designed to eliminate. Two things should be taken into consideration. When the system was developed in 1830s, the system was designed for the sole purpose of eliminating contestants for the few british govt jobs available. Secondly, It is India's bane that the two guys(Nehru, Azad) responsible for education at the time of freedom both did not have a "normal school" education. Notice that every freedom fighter of note apart from them established schools of their own.

Where does this leave the guy who fails X? absolutely no where. The system is rigged such that he and more sadly his offspring too remain failed.

Posted: **01 Jul 2009 11:00**

negi wrote: Who said not being an Engg or Doc == failure ; the reason why Engg or a Doc degree is valued because chances of carving out a decent living out of these while still being mediocre is high when compared to humanities or commerce.

The same story was trotted out 40 years ago when I was in 9th std. The same story is being trotted out across schools in India. The same story is being repeated by you on here.

But a brief look at reality will show that you might want to have a relook at your own comfortable conclusions. You might do that - but my personal concern is how to get hundreds of millions of Indians to stop believing this rubbish.

Let me explain.

I was put into a class called IX Medical which has biology. &)% did not become doctors. Others from my school went to IX (Engg). Only 50% or so actually became engineers. About half the kids went to IX (Arts) which was for the people who had already decided that their chances of making a "a decent living" was not going to work for them

In other words more than 70% of my class VIII classmates did not do engineering or Medicine. But they all did well in lines that were not engineering or medicine and most are as much of a success as I am today if not more.

This remains true even today. Less than 25% of a typical class finishing class X actually become doctors or engineers. All these people are fed propaganda about Medicine and Engineering that chances of carving out a decent living out of these while still being mediocre is high when compared to humanities or commerce.. But 75% fail to get in and are faced with the stark reality of having to make a decent living without Medicine or Engineering. And a huge majority of them succeed, following financial, banking, management, design, catering, media, entrepreneurship and other lines as "failures" who cannot make a decent living.

The truth is that bright careers exist outside the rat race of engineering or medicine but Indian educators are yet to open their eyes to that. Those who get into medicine or engineering end up thanking the stars (or their own "intelligence") and do not see what is happening to the others. But the others are doing just fine, thank you, and the Indian education system has no business imagining that "career" means a life as an employee engineer slaving for someone else, or as a doctor earning peanuts in India and designing the education system so that you are forced to take "Physics, Chem, maths/biology"

Individuals are allowed to live in cloud cuckoo land. But when the entire education system chooses to be blinkered we get India and chronic underperformance.

Posted: **01 Jul 2009 11:20**

ravi_ku wrote: The college education in India is seen as a stepping stone for jobs in India and the people simply follow the jobs. Tomorrow some one please create a constant stream of 1 lakh history professors, you will see the next history will be the new $exy doctor/engineer.

Wrong. College education is NOT following the jobs. College education (In India) is making money out of demand created by a blinkered system. The demand is based on the false premise that only engineering or medicine let you make a "decent" living.

Every time I play golf, I meet new people. All are successful enough to play golf on a weekday afternoon. There are almost no engineers (too busy working). Most people are finance, business, catering/hoteliers, airline pilots, designer and the like.

Last Sunday was the Bangalore club election. I struggled to find a parking place among the looo-ong cars parked - each costing far more than the standard Maruti/Santro class Rs 4-5 lakh car. Guess how many doctors and engineers in that group. Drive down a posh locality - business or residential. Guess how many doctors or engineers there?

Over 90% of the economy of India is being controlled by people who are neither doctors nor engineers. It is only because doctors and engineers get employment that these lines are popular. But accountants, chefs and designers also get employment and most employers are not doctors or engineers. They are businessmen with no education or often an arts background. Even educators - some of whom end up starting dozens of colleges are not doctors or engineers (who are too busy working for someone else) - they are "failed people" who do a BA or BEd and then end up being entrepreneurs who employ engineers and doctors.

I will not swear on this but I suspect that if you become a doctor or engineer - you are more likely to be an employee for life. If you "fail" and do not become one of these - you have a greater chance of becoming and entrepreneur and a net employer who employs doctors and engineers and others.

Just my view..

Posted: **01 Jul 2009 11:22**

Shiv,
success in life can be measured in many ways. What percentage of people studying engineers/doctors continue to work as engineers/doctors?

That some percentage of people has succeeded after doing yzx discipline is not the question. The question is what percentage of people have succeeded in doing yzx after doing yzx discipline, immediately after 12th.

An IAS officer frankly has the highest "respect" in this land. But what are the qualifications for that job/most other govt graduate jobs? read them, the most important thing I gathered was this - the engineering stream gave the eligibility for almost all of them. Fortunately or unfortunately, the "core" jobs for every discipline except engineering/medical are far too less. The engineering stream excludes one out of hardly any jobs. This is the double benefit out of it, you have a good number of core jobs+ doesnt exclude you out of other jobs. Tomorrow if IAS/IPS/ so on... says btechs are not eligible for them, you will see that the craze for them decreases too.

I have nothing against a person who has done bach. in literature. Infact I love literature and have the most respect for that guy much more than any engineer can ever have in my eyes. But how many people get a job doing literature their whole lives? The only jobs are in universities as professors(Btech have their own professors), archeological, writers (note that even btechs can become writers).

Posted: **01 Jul 2009 11:25**

shiv wrote:I will not swear on this but I suspect that if you become a doctor or engineer - you are more likely to be an employee for life. If you "fail" and do not become one of these - you have a greater chance of becoming and entrepreneur and a net employer who employs doctors and engineers and others.

Just my view..

I concur with this view and this is where the risk-averse nature of middle class comes to the fore.

Posted: **01 Jul 2009 11:33**

ravi_ku wrote:Shiv,
success in life can be measured in many ways. What percentage of people studying engineers/doctors continue to work as engineers/doctors?

Spot on.

So why are ALL children forced into a system in which they are told that "chances of carving out a decent living out of these while still being mediocre is high when compared to humanities or commerce.". It is simply not true.

Every year 75% of people do not make the grade and even those who make the grade do not continue as you point out.

Why then do most schools eliminate all subjects other than Physics. Chem. Maths and Biology after Class X? Why does every school promise "extra coaching" for IIT/Medical entrance exams?

It is because these lines are thought to be the only lines available by parents and children (to make a decent living) and the system exploits this mistaken belief to make money. It is high time some reality is injected into the system

1) Failing X should not be a cutoff point for further education
2) Failing to get Engineering or medicine does not indicate that you cannot make a career or a decent living.

Bharat Rakshak

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