MRCA News and Discussion

[Shankar]

o since we got ourselves foolishly bogged down on russian dependency - the only way to get out of it is to be MORE dependent on Russia

it was not foolishly getting bogged down -it was very far reaching sights of the likes if Indira gandhi who realized in a bi polar world we need to have support of Russia to survive and it worked also we needed that support for free (we paid with indian rupees almost useless in those days )

ays a lot Now I understand in your love for all things Russian you put down our nuke program, our sub program, etc. etc. but putting down ..... (you see how you tangle yourself for the natashas )

hey hey how much do you really know of our sub program ,our nuclear programe or for that matter our nuclear submarine program or for that matter the space program -i am not running down anything but the fact is fact sukhoi is but a russian aircraft with some indian input ,so is t-90,so is brahmos so is t-72s so is smerch and so on

calling Mig 27 Bahadur or Mig 29 BAAZ does not make it an indian product

problem with we Indian is we refuse to accept our limitations and the hypocrisy extends all the way to the top political leadership

we go to absurd lenghts to project the hypocrisy

[NRao]

Philip,

Understandable. I would also like to pay $100 mill or so for life time of any of these planes.

However, Indian chai-biscut and chaplusi has a price. India is paying for the mistakes Indians made years ago. Recovery from that spin is what India should be heading towards - I would suggest that either India pays for it (do not even bother to argue - for getting discounts, etc ONLY make the Indian ego "feel" that they have accomplished something great -"saved India $5 billion" - big deal) or drops things like AESA and K-172 missiles from the list. Get a bland plane and build out.

That cost - no matter from whom - is bound to increase.

Also, it was terribly nice of nations to support India. No two ways about that. BUT, I do not recall them providing anything free of cost - granted they allowed Rs payments or bartered - accommodated India. But it was not free in the first place and India is paying in other ways as we post - this is not a grip or a knock, but things just the way they are.






And, ALL this will continue as long as IndianS decide to watch too much cricket and Bollywood movies. I can bet that in another 10-20 years we will be making the very same arguments - no matter which plane India buys from anyone for the MRCA. This is an Indian created problem and has to be solved ASAP by Indians - alone.

[Shankar]

And your point is?

plain and simple

if we need to bolster the security of our nation to the level projected by IAF quickly we need to induct atleast 200 front line aircraft by 2015 .Otherwise we shall become vulnerable to Chinese attack

We need to operationalize these aircraft quickly and need to create a ground support infrastructure for these aircraft and create a pool of trained personnel including pilots to fly them in combat mode

Only Mig35 can be inducted that fast and in larger numbers because of reasons mentioned earlier

By wasting decades in selection we have blown out our options - now we have but one option left which has too many pluses - any idea how long a new aircraft system like f-18 OR Rafale will take to become fully operational apart from more than double the real cost

Please check IAF records how long it took to integrate Mirage 2000

So we have to go with a familiar system and that is Mig 35

[NRao]

Shankar,

As far as I know the MiG-29 - with the IAF - has gone through plenty of change. I am not sure how much, but from what I gather it is not quite the original issue.

On the MKI, Russians do NOT have a plane that is even close. I distinctly recall when even Russians used to snicker at the idea that India proposed the MKI. The MKI is an Indian dream come true. Left to the Russians it was not possible.

[NRao]

Shankar,

SOME of your arguments are very, very valid: as in length of time taken to be comfortable with the M2K, etc. No two ways about that.

BUT, your own posts prove that India is to reliant on a foreign vendor.

The push HAS to be for India to become independent as quickly as possible.

(Which is why I feel that the MRCA stuff is a dead horse. That the FGFA (NOT PAK-FA) is the real deal - the one product that can perhaps come closest to making India independent.)

[Surya]

Shankar

In various threads you essentially have been parroting the line that it is all Russian.

1. Nothing is for free
2. There is a great deal on Indianess in it

Anyways its all a bouncer to u, so lets move on

[GeorgeWelch]

On other side there is not a need to pay twice for same technology, like AESA or engines. What could be an expedience for for example american AESA technology purchasing if India get the same from Russia with FGFA?

1. Just because they are selling the same thing, I wouldn't assume that they are equal quality.
2. Even in the same area, each group has their own set of tips and tricks, cross-pollinating between them can only help improve quality.
3. So since you are getting Russia's best, there's absolutely nothing of value in the West? If that's what you're saying I am going to have to disagree . . .

[NRao]

And your point is?

plain and simple

if we need to bolster the security of our nation to the level projected by IAF quickly we need to induct atleast 200 front line aircraft by 2015 .Otherwise we shall become vulnerable to Chinese attack

.....................

Well, posted like an chai-biscut Indian. (sorry.)

RFP states that the first 18 planes should be inducted in 2012.

Where did you come up with 200 planes by 2015 from? The Russians have STATED that they can only start work in 2013 or so. So, IAF can EXPECT the first 18 in either 2014/15.

Do you yourself realize that you just diluted the worth of the MRCA?

My point is that Indians have been doing this for ages and need to be stopped. Here and now. enough.

[Singha]

of all the contenders the Mig35 will imo take the longest to produce in india as we'd be the only clients of its parts and we'd have to go 100% for indigenisation both because they would offer it and because we'd want to avoid 6 month delays in obtaining vital parts later.

face it brothers - F-solah is it. proven. works decently. ugly looking. and in the spirit of composite dialogue we can even obtain tips from the paf to fly it.

[NRao]

the deal would still cost around $20 Billion.

1) THAT should mean $10 Billion in offsets
2) In a trillion dollar economy that increase is peanuts. But I will grant you why even that - provided the savings are used for IndianS
3) IF India does NOT get a HUGE boost in terms of techs from the MRCA deal - no matter which deal, the MRCA is a huge failure. The boost has to be a double "Jai Ho"
4) Then we have this. So, what is the big deal? Does anyone care?

[GeorgeWelch]

practiacally speaking -how many advanced technology aircraft we can absorb at the same time .

So you should aim low and just give up on improving yourself?

IAF engineers are fully exposed to Russian system for donkeys years

Which is another way of saying they will learn nothing new from it.

- quickest induction time
-quickest time to start manufacturing

Clearly wrong. There is only one prototype flying around. It is not fully developed and the manufacturing line isn't ready.

In contrast the EF and Rafale are in full production and the SH is both in fully production and fully developed.

- existing pilot pool
-existing engineering pool

Those are clearly not that important because the existing pilot and engineering pool is needed for . . . your current fleet of MiG-29s. With 126 new planes there must be a lot of new training regardless of which plane is picked

- commonalty of weapon inventory

This is also knows as 'putting all your eggs in one basket'.

The recent reports of excessive Russian missile failures isn't encouraging.

- most likely cheapest and hence maximym number can be inducted

Cheapest perhaps in acquisition cost (but perhaps not with the Gripen-NG), but India has gotten burned plenty in the past looking just at acquisition costs. Hence why the MRCA is looking at lifecycle costs where the MiG has proven expensive in the past.

now that you have seen the internals of mig 35 and from outside we have seen in aero 2007 what reservation can any one have ?

Their AESA supplier is bankrupt, they have to outsource their self-protection jammer, it's ancient 70's tech (just for you Philip ), it make you entirely reliant on the Russians for your combat fleet, it brings in no new technology and doesn't advance any new political gains as you are already buying so much from the Russians, it is not fully developed so will take more time and money to make ready, the logistics support is nonexistent and it has no future.

[GeorgeWelch]

well lets face some basic simple facts -we are dependent on Russia -you like it or not the situation on ground says so fjust buying some super expensive rafales is not going to change the equilibrium

This is a big thing that cannot be changed all at once.

But it is a start.

we still will need russian help with our rest of the fleet including the mighty sukhois -dont get taken in by the HAL hog wash about 100% indigenous manufacture capability

we need russian help with our nuclear and conventional submarine big time

we need Russian help with our space programe big way

we need russian help with our surface ships

we need russian help with Brahmos and its next variant

Thus you should become even more dependent on them? I think you spelled out very clearly why it is time to start diversifying.

only country which will not sanction us is Russia

They will if it's in their interests, one never can tell how interests may conflict in the future. Hence the importance of diversifying, so you never become entirely reliant on any one supplier. It is simply not healthy.

However, even if they never sanction you, if they are unreliable about supplying spares and never provide any future upgrades, that is almost a virtual sanction.

And even beyond diversifying because of supplier issues, there is diversifying for technological issues. Perhaps the Chinese jam Russian radars but not American or vice versa. By having completely different systems you reduce the chance that your entire fleet will be rendered ineffective by some advance.

[bhavik]

We should not care what the political / other aspects of selection of MRCA as long as we able to use it in time of war

If we focus only on the needs of IAF
& how can deploy various strategies/ roles with selected a/c and cost (if it is a constraint more valuable than winning wars) it shall result in better selection.

I think it is mostly said by US aviators...
"For any given role or situation or mission there is a better plane than F18
but for all the roles / situations / missions no plane is better than F18"

F18) is known to play multiple roles at flick of switch -- can be operated on carrier decks.... has "growler" variant... can be used over sea / land. And it is truly multi-role. F18 can fill many shoes at IAF. I do hope based on US navy experiences... "Super Hornet" needs lesser maintenance.

TVC - does not matter in a modern BVR war so Mig 35 which is just a model and not production plane has no chance at all , though RAFALE and EF are better only for want of readily available AESA.

So my vote goes to F18E/F.(Super Hornet and not the earlier smaller F18's

[Anthony Hines]

Please remember, all decisions are political and are driven by the $$ that change hands. First Bofors and now it may well be Gripen

[NRao]

The list that Shankar provided can be seen from two angles:

1) That the Soviets/Russians have helped, and
2) How dependent the Indian "leadership" has made India on a foreign entity.

The Soviets/Russians should be thanked and hopefully have been paid for in some form or another.

The Indian leadership should read the listed item every morning and be ashamed of themselves for placing the country in this predicament.

[Willy]

If the MMRCA is going to be decided on politically considerations then its going to be either the US fighters or the Eurofighter. Sweden does not have enough political muscle. France on its own dosent have all that much influnce either. The Russians are getting paid in a lot of other ways. Uncle is Mr. Muscle here and the EU countries UK/Germany/Spain/Italy form a formidable block to.

Remember a few years back the PM had said or was it the defence minister, that India would leverage its defence buying capacity to influence international politics to its advantage. So we might well see the Hornet or the Typhoon in IAF colours though the dark horse may be the MIG with the Russians demanding their pound of flesh for help on the nuke sub.

By the way I wouldnt be surprised if the price escalation in the Groshkov contains hidden costs towards the second Akula

[Gagan]

Please remember, all decisions are political and are driven by the $$ that change hands. First Bofors and now it may well be Gripen

No Indians are not that corrupt to accept bribes to award a contract to a supplier who is not the best.
What will happen is that who ever wins will have a price negotiations meet with the babooze and politicos, and then will have to cough up.

[nrshah]

A lot of heated debate is going on...
cannot resist but add fuel to fire

Many of us are questioning our dependence on Russia. We have made India a foreign entity as per few. We even went questioning partnership with them.

Let me remind u, We needed Russian / Soviet support and not vice versa. We wanted Soviet support when the entire world was against us. I dont know when will we learn self respect, when will we stop hosting the b*s*a*d* who dared to sent nuke powered CBG against us. But for Russian help in 1971 war, i dont know if we wud have been in a position as we are today. just go thru war history, no of times it vettoed in our favour. It will also speak how many country were supporting us in those needful days. and where were those sweat so called strategic partners. Where were those democracies which consider themselves as torch bearers of the world? On whose side were there ships / aircrafts - with democracy or with dictatorship?

Atleast Russians have goodwill, they will co operate fully not matter whatever circumstance may be. There limitation might be technical but definitely not of intentions unlike America. Let us not close our eyes on American diplomacy. Also consider that they are giving us aircraft when they are retiring it unlike russians who have given us something which even they dont have (claimed by one of u only) Have we ever thought why not a single nation that was under US umbrella have been able to develop any strategic system (Nuke Submarines / Aircrafts / Ships etc) Also, French / UK were powerful even before US.

There is no harm in depending on someone if he is dependable and russians have proved it beyond all doubts, each time, every time.

Russians have given us technology and help which others will not even talk of. Can any one get a nuke submarine from America / UK? We cannot even get consultancy for LCA which is not a match to F22 /F35 they have.

I fully support Mig 35 and Russians and please don't personalize things saying my relatives from Russia etc for then many of us have relatives (father in law / GF) in America too.

-Nitin

[b_patel]

If the MMRCA is going to be decided on politically considerations then its going to be either the US fighters or the Eurofighter. Sweden does not have enough political muscle. France on its own dosent have all that much influnce either. The Russians are getting paid in a lot of other ways. Uncle is Mr. Muscle here and the EU countries UK/Germany/Spain/Italy form a formidable block to.
Remember a few years back the PM had said or was it the defence minister, that India would leverage its defence buying capacity to influence international politics to its advantage. So we might well see the Hornet or the Typhoon in IAF colours though the dark horse may be the MIG with the Russians demanding their pound of flesh for help on the nuke sub.

Well the Super Hornet and the Typhoon are the favorites to win from what I've read, so one of them should win. IF not, the Dark Horse, the Rafale will probably win. Some posters keep harping about how the cheapest aircraft will win; if that's the case then why are the Typhoon, Rafale, Super Hornet even considered. 10+ billion dollars is not a lot for india, considering what they plan on purchasing they might as well go for a quality aircraft (Typhoon, Rafale, Super Hornet) over a cheap one.

There is no harm in depending on someone if he is dependable and russians have proved it beyond all doubts, each time, every time.

I couldn't help but laugh at this. The Soviet Union was always dependable each and every time. Russia is a completely different story excluding the Gorshkov, T-90 deals the Mig-29K's are almost a year late (not that big of a deal though no carrier to put them on), the new Krivak frigates are behind schedule.

We cannot even get consultancy for LCA which is not a match to F22 /F35 they have.

Consultancy is not provided by russia, EADS has been selected to for the desperately needed consultancy.

[Surya]

Obviously you have not met the unfortunate IAF officers who had to deal with mig spares, Mig 29 issues yada yada.

The halcyon days of the Soviet union are gone. So the faster you get over it the better.


Bpatel - not meant for you

[b_patel]

Obviously you have not met the unfortunate IAF officers who had to deal with mig spares, Mig 29 issues yada yada.
The halcyon days of the Soviet union are gone. So the faster you get over it the better.

I did forget about that, I was just trying to point out to the previous poster that Russia is not a dependable defence supplier anymore. The soviet union way back when was much more reliable.

[Kartik]

Please check IAF records how long it took to integrate Mirage 2000

So we have to go with a familiar system and that is Mig 35

look, enough of your BS..the Mirage-2000 was integrated into the IAF in as much time as any other newly inducted fighter..the only difference was the generational gap between fighters of the Mirage-2000 class and MiG-21s and MiG-23s.

FYI, the IAF has a longer history of operating French aircraft than Russian aircraft, including Ouragans, Mysteres and Alizes. IAF technicians are known to have been blown away by the Mirage-2000's ease of maintenance as compared to any Russian fighter and that includes the MiG-29, the Mirage's peer.

and just to blow holes into your "how long it took IAF to integrate Mirage-2000" BS, read the article by Air Marshal Harish Masand in Vayu Aerospace on the face-off between the Mirage-2000 and the MiG-29, which at that time was just being inducted. the Mirage-2000 was already well established in IAF squadron service by then.

and if there was any hiccups, it was primarily because of how advanced the Mirage-2000 was compared to MiG-21s and MiG-23s that the IAF operated at that time.

the Mirage and its systems are less maintenance intensive, implying greater up time and aircraft availability- check with your sources for which squadrons have the highest availability among the IAF squadrons.

the Mirage has much greater airframe life: 7500 hrs vs. 6000 hrs for the MiG-29K, and only around 3000 hours for the MiG-29A that the IAF operates. a refit will extend that life, but by only around 1000 hours or so.

now lets take the modern RD-33K engine for the MiG-29K, which is advertised as offering 1,200 hr MTBO (mean time between overhauls). However, based on IAF and Luftwaffe experiences with earlier models of the engine found that most engines require overhaul after 300-700 hours. Compare this to the M53P2 of the Mirage-it is of modular construction. This eliminates the need for complete overhaul at specified periods. The twelve modules that make up that engine can be exchanged or replaced during regular engine inspections, simplifying the entire process a great deal.

there are benefits to having western fighters and Russian fighters and the IAF recognises this and always has. but to suggest that all of India's defence and progress has only been due to Russian equipment and Russian help is ridiculous to say the least.

But I know it won't make any difference to you, so you can go back to your inane "Russian women are most beautiful and intelligent and gutsy and I wish I could marry one" or "we should bow down to and thank Russians for everything" or "MiG-35 has already gotten into pole position" type posts.

conveniently ignore that a final MiG-35 demonstrator prototype with the required structural mods has not yet been seen flying.

and with the Russians now saying that a 650 T/R module Zhuk AE radar is all they intend to provide, and the reason offered is that it gives adequate performance as is- rather than scaling it up to a level that matches what the IAF wants. all of which conveniently fits in with the recent reports of their near bankruptcy, so no money left for any further development, huh ? after all, engineering work is costly and Russia is not the USSR where unlimited funds were available.

and for all their bluster, the RuAF won't put its money where its mouth is and order MiG-35s for itself. the argument about large Russian airspace hardly holds when the MiG-35's range is so much larger than that of the MiG-29.

[Katare]

As promised,the details of the "tricks" and price of a sh*g with the Super Hag!

Now the final price that Brazil has been offered for its FX-2 requirement is:
36 F/A-18 E/Fs for "around $7 Billion".

The breakup is 28 F/A-18Es and 8 two-seat F/A-18Fs.Along with the aircraft comes the foll. package of "tricks".

1.76 GE F414-400 engines.

2.36 Raytheon APG-76 AESA radars.

3.26 each of AIM-120C7 AMRAAMs and AIM9M Sidewinder missiles.

4.36 AGM98B HARM anti-radar missiles.

5.60 Boeing GBU 31/32/ JDAMs.

6.36 Raytheon ASQ-22B advanced targeting FLIR pods,plus countermeasures,EW and self-protective equipment.

Prices for the Gripen and rafale are not yet known,but the rafale appears to be the favourite especially as France is assisting Brazil to build nuclear subs.Having operated US eqpt. before,Brazil is not so concerned about US EUM.Deliveries are to start in 2014 and the final decision is to be announced by October this year.This is a date eagerly anticipated,as whoever wins the Brazilian contract gets "pole position" for the Indian MMRCA deal.

The price is phenomenal for an aircraft of tech that started out in the '70s.It works out to approx. to just under $200 million per aircraft (including the extra tricks) ! That is the price that the F-22 is being touted at.Going by this yardstick (and I posted earlier the similar price that Oz was being stung for for 24 F-18SHs),126 aircraft for India with the same quantum of engines,misisles,etc.,would be in the range of $25 Billion!!!
Even if a hefty discount is gioven ,say about $5 Billion,the deal would still cost around $20 Billion.

This to me is simply an unacceptable figure for ANY of the contenders.We could get around 15-20 Akulas SSGNs/Arihants SSBNs (just 5 F-18SHs are equivalent to one nuclear sub!) for that price.Including missiles and eqpt. as is being offered to the Brazilians,the price for an MMRCA aircraft with an AESA radar should not exceed $55-65 million per piece max. plus TOT.Given these figures,the Gripen and MIG-35 should be the lowest on offer,as I cannot see the IAF wanting to operate the F-16 which Pak has and is getting upgraded significantly with Turkish assistance.Cost is going to be in my opinion the most vital factor-all other parameters of the requirements being met.

Those $ figures are life cycle costs of entire program if every option under the sun is exercised by the customer. That's what Boeing/LM would submit to congress for getting political sanctions for sale. What customer buys is really a small portion of that. Boeing CEO has stated the cost of F18 SH to be ~$50Mill a pop.

I think US planes, especially F16, would be the cheapest of all the contenders simply because of long and large production runs and depreciated production lines. EU folks would have hard time coming anywhere close to these two planes, especially after 35% depreciation of dollar against euro.

Mig35 could beat the price because it also gets free money from Govt but its financial condition and fight for survival would mean it'll lie and over promise to get the deal. $10-20billion deal should go to a company whose yearly revenues are at least higher than the cost of the project.

Financially I think anyone except Russians would be OK.

[NRao]

But for Russian help in 1971 war, i dont know if we wud have been in a position as we are today.

It was the Soviets not Russia.

But, the Soviets also prevented India from taking on Pakistan in the west - at the behest of the US!!

And, recall Tashkent.

You make it sound as though the Soviets were just walking along and India got herself into trouble and then asked the Soviets for help.

Russia has been paid for her troubles.

India IN FACT bailed out Russia when the Russians needed help to survive the drunken years. Without MKI who knows where Sukhoi would have been. In fact I would like to argue that Russian defense has relied on Indian funds for the past 10-15 years. Without those funds they would not be afloat today.

[NRao]

Russians have given us technology and help which others will not even talk of. Can any one get a nuke submarine from America / UK? We cannot even get consultancy for LCA which is not a match to F22 /F35 they have.

Sure, they have and thanks for that.

BUT India has paid a price for it. It did not come free.

On consultancy for LCA, wonder why India could not rely (again?) on Russia for it.




There are two periods: Soviets and Russia. They have very little in common because when the SU split a lot of techs went along with other nations that were formed out of the SU. Russia today has a great deal of brain power - no two ways, but seems to have lost much in funds and engineering capabilities.

The fact of the matter is that Russia (NOT Soviets) are under a bind. While they have lost a great deal (understandably), the US in particular has gained a lot.

From a political PoV too, today, India is better aligned with the US - even with all the -ves the relationship has.

We have to let go of teh Soviet era - it cannot come back. And, the Russians are very nearly in the same boat as India in many ways: the two together - IMHO - can go somewhere. BUT the Russians are no longer the power the Soviets were - in any respect. The best the Russians have done is to propose to buy 48 Su-35s!!!!!! While India is inducting 220 or so in the same period of time (and with the potential to make the MKI far better without Russian help).

[NRao]

IMHO it still does not mean that India should buy a non-Russian AC for the MRCA. But to say in 1971 ...... and therefore........ is just too much,

[pralay]

BUT India has paid a price for it. It did not come free.

Nothing comes free!

From a political PoV too, today, India is better aligned with the US - even with all the -ves the relationship has.

We have to let go of teh Soviet era - it cannot come back. And, the Russians are very nearly in the same boat as India in many ways: the two together - IMHO - can go somewhere. BUT the Russians are no longer the power the Soviets were - in any respect. The best the Russians have done is to propose to buy 48 Su-35s!!!!!! While India is inducting 220 or so in the same period of time (and with the potential to make the MKI far better without Russian help).

There are only temporary strategic(not technological)gains with Amberika, We will get equipments but not technoloy and the instruments will also come with "End user License Agreement". Amberika tends to use others to serve their purpose. They are not anyway trustworthy.
The best option now it to try to take out as much as possible from Amberika, we don't know what moment we will loose their favor :d
Russians may have been bad with keeping timings in military business but as a Strategic partner they are very valuable considering their geographical location which will help us to encircle the dragon.
For our shopping we may choose those things that will serve our purpose best!

[Raveen]

but as a Strategic partner they are very valuable considering their geographical location which will help us to encircle the dragon.

I assure you, that is nothing short of another wet/day dream...
1. Why would they? they sell military equipment to the dragon as well
2. Do they really have the financial backing to take a stand unless directly provoked?

The only way Russia (not USSR, since they no longer exist...the cold war is over and the era of countries siding with one another for no apparent reason other than to get in thier good books is long gone!) will get involved is if one of the Chinese missles heads north (instead of south) by mistake/due to excellent chinese workmanship and QC

[NRao]

There are only temporary strategic

May be. But that is true with any nation.

Which is why India has to to do what is best for her and not think about what happened in Soviets era, etc. After all all nations have moved on. Bet bachu does not even know how to spell "soviet".

[Raveen]

There are only temporary strategic

May be. But that is true with any nation.

Which is why India has to to do what is best for her and not think about what happened in Soviets era, etc. After all all nations have moved on. Bet bachu does not even know how to spell "soviet".

true!

[shanksinha]

After about 9 years of visiting BR and at least 5 years of scanning through Forums for genuine military info, things have come to a passé. It is all very funny actually if not equally sad.

We all seem to be so much full of (and there is no other word for it) hate. We hate all the things around us. We hate our politicians, we hate or underdevelopment, we hate our years of wasted resilience and we hate ourselves for lack of eternal patience for our great country to take its rightful place under the sun. With all this, understandably, we have also come to hate many things of our past relationships within the international community.

In the form of public forums like BR we have also found a big vent for the seething anger within us, with our fingers quick on the trigger to lash out against anyone who thinks differently. I don’t want to quote any of such outbursts, for entire threads are littered with them.

Lately the BR forums have come in for some very "in your face" commentaries by a large number of contributors who seem to have had enough with the way things were. Enough with the snail paced Hindu rate of growth, enough with the Indian beurocratic leviathan, enough with shoddy old tech Bajaj scooters which had to be tilted slightly before the kick start, enough with...............well almost all the byproducts of the socialist system. And what better way to channelise all this anger and hatred than by hitting at the modern versions of the old protagonists?

The resurgent India is ready for the future and in many ways it IS time to cut the threads to the past. But is the best way to go about it? We seem to be on a retro overdrive to finally join the so called "winners of history". I hope it is worth it.

Thank you. This all very OT, but then again it is not.

[NRao]

The resurgent India is ready for the future and in many ways it IS time to cut the threads to the past.

Is this by design, by plan? Or some "divine" intervention?

No need to cut the threads.

Build confidence and simultaneously assure others that we all can contribute.

Then those threads will drop by themselves - effortlessly and in total understanding.

One thing for sure, there can be NO fear of going it alone. None what so ever.

[avinash.rd]

Shankar,

I think ur right. MIG-35 appears cost effective. Russia is blackmailing India now a days. They are getting into extortion techniques to be sure. Their MIG-35 will come cheap, but when? May be we will cross 200 MIG-35s by 2030!! We need a reliable partner. India has ordered 40 Su-30s few months back. So Russia has to understand that India cant afford to wait for their weapons for ever. India should look to tilt towards western technology from now onwards.

India is loosing the edge to PAK. India can never be compared to China, since chinese are in front always. I would say Rafale, since French are reliable. They are also helping us with nuclear technology. I think we need to work with French, since their diplomacy doesn't depend on neither U.S. nor European interest.

Can you please let me know your thoughts?

[avinash.rd]

Dear All,

It is really great to see so many people are following MRCA. I am not sure whether our politicians are so much interested!!

I think India should become self dependent in all the technologies as soon as possible, otherwise India has to pay an exorbitant cost, the way they are paying now.

I really believe that India should join hands with a country which is willing to transfer most of its expertise to India in this field without delaying things. So U.S.(whose decisions has so many ifs and buts) and Russia (which was the best friend of India, not now) are not so worthy contenders. I would say,
1)Rafale :- If they are ready to transfer all the technology. I am sure that they are.
2)EF200:- If they are ready to transfer all the technology. I am sure that they are. They even asked India to join their program. If they are willing to reduce the cost.
3)Gripen :-If they are ready to transfer all the technology. I am sure that they are. I think India can start a 3 country partnership. India+Sweden+Israel(for electronics).
4)U.S. F-18:- If they are ready to transfer all the technology. I am not sure about it. If they are willing to reduce the cost also.
5)MIG-35 :- If they are ready to transfer all the technology. I am sure that they are. If they can supply 20 MIGs and help India to start manufacturing before 2015, about which even they are not sure.
6)India should also look for Su-35 and F-15 Silent Eagle if they come within our time frame. Because these fighters will establish Indian dominance in Indochina skies, which is must even if we shell out 20 billion dollars!!!!

100 F-15 Silent Eagles are equivalent to 200 Su-35 or 200 EF200 any day!!!

Can u all please let me know you views?

[b_patel]

We can negotiate the French to put the Israeli Radar into the Rafale. Well I am not thinking stupid here. The Elta 2052 is being considered for LCA. We can get a commonality here. But chanikyan point of view says its better to have 2 different AESA on 2 different aircraft.

Israel is not even considering the El-2052 for any of their fighters, its a pure export radar. Also would the US allow israel to offer it to India for the rafale. Then you have to consider the time it will take to integrate the radar fully into the rafale. I don't think the radar can fit onto the Rafale anyway (not sure).

The SNECMA M-88 2 provides 50.04 kN
Kaveri provides 52 in its present form so it wud definitely provide 50.04 kN

That's really not that big of an improvement. 1.96kN. Also the Rafale will receive upgraded engines, its one of the main conditions for the UAE order (also AESA, meteor, advanced ECM). Why not just use those engines, they will be much more powerful than the Kaveri. At this point forget the indigenous option unless it can match the enhanced thrust engines.

[b_patel]

2)EF200:- If they are ready to transfer all the technology. I am sure that they are. They even asked India to join their program. If they are willing to reduce the cost.

The EF is the best choice for India. Cost should not be an issue, if you want the best you gotta pay more.

100 F-15 Silent Eagles are equivalent to 200 Su-35 or 200 EF200 any day!!!

Umm. No they actually are not equivalent to 200 EF. The F-15 SE have improved frontal stealth capabilities but its still not F-22 or even F-35 status. The F-15SE has the highest level of stealth allowed for export by the US. I assume it to be very similar to the Super Hornets RCS of .01sqm. The EF has a lower RCS than even the Super Hornet not to mention that the Silent Eagle cannot match the EF in air combat. Plus its not in the race so who cares!

[Devesh Rawal]

Hello Avinash - welcome! I hope you have a good supply of hard hats to make the F-15 claim, because the replies are about to come

Repeated ad-nauseum on this thread: the MRCA is not the top line fighter for the IAF. The MKI is. Hopefully the FGFA will take over that role in 10 years.

Strategic alliances between countries are based on mutual need (greed? ). In this aspect it would be a folly not to ally with the US given the current state of the political world. L&T is complaining about Chinese technology infiltration in India, even as it has expanded its operations in China:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/KE15Df01.html


Also of interest is the history of the Jaguar acquisition, detailed here:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Info/ ... 25Yrs.html
Seems like the americans will have to make a similar commitment like the Brits did for the Jags, if Boeing or LM get short-listed.

[b_patel]

the MRCA is not the top line fighter for the IAF. The MKI is. Hopefully the FGFA will take over that role in 10 years.

But if the rafale, Super Hornet, or Typhoon are chose they would become Indias top line fighter! They are better fighter than the MKI

[Gagan]

None of these beat the MKI. The MKI is one hypermaneuverable sensor-laden bomb truck with immense range and payload capacity.
NONE of these have the range, payload capacity or the maneuverablity of the MKI. Their sensors are comparable, with the exception of an AESA radar on the MRCA and the PESA on the MKI.

[avinash.rd]

b_patel,

F-15 is a proven aircraft. Till now no F-15 went down in any combat. I dont think EF2000 has ever been involved in an actual combat. I have to agree with ur technical details. Thanks for the updates.

May be in this MMRCA competition we should fit fighters against each other!!!! I m joking, I know they will never agree for this.