The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jun 2011 13:53

the political class only knows how to take take take, never give.

a while back there was a proposal to scrap this whole imperial rome concept of 1000s of acres of lutyens delhi being maintained at huge expense (the bill for repair and upg each time a bungalow is occupied by new tenant runs in lakhs) in construction, horticulture and security and moving all MPs/Ministers into a couple of state of art highrise buildings built on a unified plot of land and converting the rest of Lutyens delhi into public spaces .

no prizes for guessing where that proposal went. NOBODY in power is going to give up acres and acres of greenery and lavish bungalows paid and kept up at public expense for a lowly flat in some highrise.

there should be an audit of just how much it costs to maintain this imperial colony of lutyens delhi per annum, it will be the budget of a small state if not more.

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 07 Jun 2011 14:57

http://www.rediff.com/news/column/ramde ... 110607.htm

Ramdev's capital humiliation serves democracy well

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 07 Jun 2011 15:12

sugriva wrote:http://www.rediff.com/news/column/ramde ... 110607.htm

Ramdev's capital humiliation serves democracy well

Truly a bunch of garbage from a retard. Who is this navneet anand.

Does not understand anything about democracy, freedom of speech, and the fundamental right to peaceful protest.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 07 Jun 2011 15:15

Anna Hazare's June 8th program shiften to Rajghat from Jantar Mantar, to avoid a clash over section 144.

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 07 Jun 2011 15:18

Pranav wrote:Does not understand anything about democracy, freedom of speech, and the fundamental right to peaceful protest.

I too do not understand what "democracy", "freedom of speech" and "fundamental right to peaceful protest" are, atleast not what your definitions of them are. Would you be kind enough to explain them for me please.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 07 Jun 2011 15:21

sugriva wrote:
http://www.rediff.com/news/column/ramde ... 110607.htm

Ramdev's capital humiliation serves democracy well

Message to modern activism
The stern action against Baba also sends a strong message to such agents do not coat your vested interest with an ideology; do not take the pretence of 'satyagraha' to meet overt political and economic gains; do not blackmail and challenge constitutional and democratic institutions at your whims and fancy.

Duh!
This guy seems to have lost the plot. The constitutional and democratic institutions of the country have failed - that is the reason why BR is protesting.

At a time when decay in public morality is at its lowest ebb and many political institutions are faced with unprecedented crisis, allowing Baba Ramdev to run a smear campaign and throw challenges to government under live television from the heart of Indian capital would have meant deepening the mock. It would have made the government look toothless, dumb and spineless.

Ha ha you are barking up the wrong tree ! The question is not of public morality you dimwit. It is corruption and black money in the highest levels of government and businesses.

Among his main issues is this:

Code: Select all

[b]Agree to and accept the U.N. Convention against Corruption – pending since 2006 and following the Indian money stashed in Swiss accounts. The  germans have  followed up on the accounts. The Americans have. The  Germans offered the  Indians names and accounts and the  Indian government is yet to respond. [/b]

What unprecendented crises are political instutions facing? What the bloody phuck is this guy talking about?
Someone must lead this mad dog to a vet and put him to rest. For a Rs.10 and some chai , vada I bet I can make this guy bark at the government.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 07 Jun 2011 15:30

sugriva wrote:
Pranav wrote:Does not understand anything about democracy, freedom of speech, and the fundamental right to peaceful protest.
I too do not understand what "democracy", "freedom of speech" and "fundamental right to peaceful protest" are, atleast not what your definitions of them are. Would you be kind enough to explain them for me please.

I think a dictionary will suffice!

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 07 Jun 2011 15:31

Neela wrote:
At a time when decay in public morality is at its lowest ebb and many political institutions are faced with unprecedented crisis, allowing Baba Ramdev to run a smear campaign and throw challenges to government under live television from the heart of Indian capital would have meant deepening the mock. It would have made the government look toothless, dumb and spineless.
Ha ha you are barking up the wrong tree ! The question is not of public morality you dimwit. It is corruption and black money in the highest levels of government and businesses.

Also note the grammar in the passage quoted...This Navneet guy can't communicate in English for nuts.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 07 Jun 2011 15:43

Nepal defends Baba Ramdev aide Balkrishna

KATHMANDU: Strong reactions poured in from Nepal Tuesday after reports in the Indian media quoted an Indian politician as accusing yoga guru Baba Ramdev's principal aide Balkrishna of having fled Nepal after being involved in criminal activities there.

The Patanjali Yog Samiti, established in Nepal by the guru whose fame was established through television, refuted statement by Digvijay Singh , who accused Balkrishna, a Nepali citizen, of being wanted for criminal activities in Nepal and having fraudulently obtained an Indian passport.

"That is a lie and an indication of the way politicians from India's ruling party have been behaving after losing self control," said Lab Dev Mishra , Nepal chief of the Samiti.

"Acharya Balkrishna has been living in India since his childhood. It is absurd that he can be involved in criminal activities in Nepal."

Mishra said the reported allegation that the aide obtained an Indian passport fraudulently would be credible only after government agencies made an official statement about how the document was issued, not on the basis of politicians' aspersions.

Singh's comments threatened to create a further rift in India-Nepal ties with many Nepalis perceiving it as a politically motivated attempt to assassinate the character of a public figure just because he happened to be a Nepali.

A Nepali TV agency, News@24, made Singh's allegation its "Issue of the Day" report Tuesday, talking to people who knew the beleaguered Balkrishna as a young boy to defend him in public.

Nepali journalist Narayan Bhandari said he came from the same Syangja district in western Nepal where Balkrishna was born and had been his playmate.

"He was a simple village boy who was liked by all and never showed any criminal tendency," Bhandari said.

Balkrishna, born in Bharuwa village, showed an interest in ayurveda and eastern philosophy from an early age and was sent to Hardwar in India to study there. He is also said to have done an academic stint in Benaras.

"He acquired an impressive knowledge of medicinal herbs. When he came to Nepal from time to time, he would distribute ayurvedic medicines freely in the villages or at a low cost," Bhandari said.

The Nepali journalist said he had spoken to Balkrishna's brother in Hardwar Tuesday who told him that the aide, described as missing by a section of the Indian media, was well and safe.

"There are no criminal cases against Balkrishna in Syangja," Bhandari said.

Mishra said though there would be no more public protests in Nepal for now, officials would continue to monitor the developments in India.

As Nepal's media continued to cover the protests in India, readers wrote to major dailies, comparing India to China, where there was "no freedom of expression".

Ramdev has yoga centres spread over all 75 districts of Nepal that employ more than 5,000 teachers and 27 ayurvedic centres selling herb-based medicines. His followers include Nepal's leading politicians, actors and captains of industry.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 759541.cms

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 07 Jun 2011 16:29

South Asian Nations look at India for democratic values. Particularly many of them including some Western nations have borrowed some of our democratic practices and suggestions. But some congress folks possibly without the knowledge of PM or other leaders have done this to protect their interests and their selfish motives. At this time the government has to come out clearly as this act of removing any non-violent protest against the government using force is against our principle of Indepence which Gandhi has given as one of the important values of our nation. This can happen for any party when they are not in power even Congress if they want to protest they can be banned from doing this as this becomes wrong precedence towards a dictatorial governance. India as a country and subcontinent cannot afford to another confusion in democracy. So it is essential to find out who really ordered this incident and send them home. If government itself has done it it is better to apologise for what they had done and have Anna and Ramdev on board for suggestions and improvement of the Lokpal bill. I understand that there are political bias with some agitations but their demands are not wrong in terms of Lokpal bill which needs to be brought in its completeness. Also there is a need for a grassroots movement both religious and non-religious to eradicate the culture of corruption at every stages of our society.

Inder Sharma · Post by **Inder Sharma** » 07 Jun 2011 16:31

sugriva wrote:
Pranav wrote:Does not understand anything about democracy, freedom of speech, and the fundamental right to peaceful protest.
I too do not understand what "democracy", "freedom of speech" and "fundamental right to peaceful protest" are, atleast not what your definitions of them are. Would you be kind enough to explain them for me please.

I must call for point of order here.

The right to Life, Liberty and happiness is considered a natural and inalienable right of man. Self-evident and requiring no proof.

This belief is the underlying philosophy of the Indian and the American Constitution. Sugriva in his zest for defending the ‘Ones who cannot be Named’ is seeking to place these values themselves under the scanner, an ignoble venture needing full measure of resistance.

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 07 Jun 2011 16:37

^^^ Kindly do not ascribe motives when none are intended. Your strawmen arguments are a diversionary tactic to disrupt the flow of the thread.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 07 Jun 2011 16:45

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 761170.cms

On aaj tak : ' key 2nd aid of BR a criminal from Nepal , BR avoiding Q on him'

Opposition in Uttarakhand alleges BR to have grabbed land in Haridwar & elsewhere.

CBI to investigate BR's property.

All of a sudden all guns blazing on BR from GoI. With tadi-paar order on him, BR will find it difficult to galvanize masses.

On the other hand if GoI is able to discover only now Acharya Balkrishna illegaly obtained Indian passport (who appears every day on TV) then how many illegal immigrants are in India??

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 07 Jun 2011 16:57

sugriva wrote:^^^ Kindly do not ascribe motives when none are intended. Your strawmen arguments are a diversionary tactic to disrupt the flow of the thread.

Sugriva,
let me go to your earlier posts:

With all due respect to BRD and party, the time had come to clear up the place. If BRD is not curtailed now, every Tom, Dick and Harry will sit on dharna and demand anything. Also looking at the revanchists like the Jat Khap panchayats supporting him and any respect one would have had for his position was lost. Good riddance !!!! His previous mollycoddling by ministers of the Government may have been a by product of Congress internal politics. However bowing down to his pressure tactics today will lead to the unraveling of the idea of a liberal democratic India. Even a look at his demands, like medical education in regional languages is like WTF. That is not to say that corruption is not an issue. It is and voters have shooed out uber corrupt regimes like those of the DMK. But BRD's disposition goes against the idea of India. Soon he would have been demanding a ban on non vegetarian food in this country.

Let me rephrase what you wrote :

That is not to say that ~~corruption~~ murders by politicians is not an issue. It is and voters have shooed out uber ~~corrupt~~ murderous regimes like those of the ~~DMK~~ DMK-(M).

Problem solved hain ji?

Hopefully now you get an idea as to what BR and AH are trying to do?

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 07 Jun 2011 17:03

^^^ Are you proving my point about strawman arguments

It looked to me that you just did so...

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Jun 2011 17:18

BR running a "smear campaign"? Ye Gods! What then does the Govt. call the avalanche of unending corruption and scams that can be directly traced back to the dispensation of "Scam" Singh? Why then are Raja,Kani,Kalmadi and Co. enjoying the luxurious surroundings of Tihar Jail-soon it appears to be joined by Moron..sorry,Maran ,still an undisturbed minister in the govt. of "Scam" Singh!

Sonia Gandhi has to crack the whip now if she has ambitions of saving the party and/or Rahul from ever becoming PM.This crisis gives her an opportunity to weild the butcher's knife and change the PM and cabinet ,as repentence for the acts of commission ($) and omission!

I agree with Acharaya and others who say that Scam Singh has allowed vested foreign interests to run riot within the corridors of power.The amount of time Scam Singh has spent outside the country in foreign visits compared with visits to the various states and cities of India speak for itself! Singh and his aprty are now caught between a rock (Baba) and a "Hazare-dous" place !

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 07 Jun 2011 17:19

Neela wrote:Hopefully now you get an idea as to what BR and AH are trying to do

Not really...Actually there is a gulf of difference between what the folks "using" AH were trying to do and what BR is trying out..Likes of Arvind Kejriwal et al had a specific agenda in mind, ie, Lokpal, had an idea of what the animal should look like, and wanted to force the issue (which has been hanging fire for many decades over multiple shades of govts)....They used AH as a moral exemplar to garner attention...

BR, on the other hand, clearly has an agenda which is much bigger..Hence, he isnt unduly bothered with the details of the current issue he is raising...His understanding of the issue of black money, quantum, and above all, the remedies, are astoundingly shallow for a person who seemingly wants to embark on a "fast unto death" for the cause...That interview with Shekhar Gupta gives numerous insights into his thought process on the isue (or rather the sheer lack of it)...

As a result, it would be safe to conclude that the motives are larger political in nature..Which is not wrong at all, why not in fact? But then, holding a city hostage through a 24/7 televised tamasha is not acceptable...Political battles in a democracy need to be fought in the political domain, not in the garb of saintly mumbo jumbo...

I said earlier, today it is his mumbo jumbo on black money (a topic that he evidently understands nothing of)...tomorrow he will demand the same on the issue of homosexuality...Day after on repalcing English in schools...Will we be held hostage to such drama each time? Sorry, but if "civil society" impact has to be seen, examples to be emulated are examples of the Delhi citizenry forcing the govt to act on the Pridarshini Mattoo case, or the people of Bihar voting Nitish Kumar back to power on a pro-incumbency wave, or indeed the students/faculty/allumni of IIXs pushing back energetically at all absurdities spawned by MMJ/Arjun Singh....

This BR thing has no aim, no agenda, no nothing - almost as if the ostensible issue is a sideshow to the person raising it....If that is the case, let him join battle electorally, there is no reason for the Delhi citizenry to put up with the inconvenience...

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 07 Jun 2011 17:23

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 760647.cms

Civil rights activist Arvind Kejriwal on Tuesday targeted human resource development minister Kapil Sibal, saying it seems the Congress leader does not want the civil society representatives to attend the drafting committee meetings for a strong Lokpal Bill.

"He (Sibal) is putting words in our mouth and it seems he wants us to say that we won't be attending future meetings," Kejriwal told reporters when asked about Sibal's comments that it's fine if they come or don't come for the meetings.

"We won't let you off so easily," he warned.

The civil rights activists, headed by social activist Anna Hazare, had boycotted the Lokpal Bill drafting committee meeting on Monday to protest the post-midnight crackdown Saturday on yoga guru Baba Ramdev and his supporters.

"We had yesterday (Monday) written to (finance minister and committee co-chair) Pranab Mukherjee that we won't be present at the meeting and also urged him to postpone the next meeting after June 10 as Anna Hazare cannot make it. So, it's clear that we are going for the next meeting," Kejriwal told reporters here.

Sibal had said that the government will prepare the legislation for introducing in parliament's monsoon session despite their absence.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 07 Jun 2011 17:27

somnath wrote:But then, holding a city hostage through a 24/7 televised tamasha is not acceptable

Lack of clear thinking, you are equating sitting on dharna to holding people hostages. Another silly excuse to support your corrupt overlords

somnath wrote:I said earlier, today it is his mumbo jumbo on black money (a topic that he evidently understands nothing of)

Ramdev has better understanding than you have

somnath wrote:...tomorrow he will demand the same on the issue of homosexuality...

Tomorrow you may commit murder, so why not arrest you today. See others can make the same counter arguments you have made while attacking anti-corruption activists

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 07 Jun 2011 17:32

Raghavendra wrote:Ramdev has better understanding than you have

Why dont you point out where he has articulated a clear view on the issue and its remedies....

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 07 Jun 2011 17:38

somnath wrote:
Raghavendra wrote:Ramdev has better understanding than you have
Why dont you point out where he has articulated a clear view on the issue and its remedies....

I would have done so but knowing your record of personal attacks it would be a sheer waste of time giving attention to a troll

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 07 Jun 2011 17:43

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 07 Jun 2011 17:45

Raghavendra wrote: I would have done so but knowing your record of personal attacks it would be a sheer waste of time giving attention to a troll

Can you point out? But never mind, I am sure you are not serious about a discussion..

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 07 Jun 2011 17:48

somnath wrote:
Raghavendra wrote: I would have done so but knowing your record of personal attacks it would be a sheer waste of time giving attention to a troll
Can you point out? But never mind, I am sure you are not serious about a discussion..

Here you go, read thru them all http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/search ... 4&sr=posts

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Jun 2011 17:54

Yeah, yeah - hear ye, all hear ye - the closet Congressi pseudo-secular pseudo nationalists have all now come out in strength to justify "strong arm of government" against "flooding by lacs of chaps"! How wonderful is the supreme ideological chaamchagiri that smoothly pretends to uphold "going to the people for mandate" whereas those very same people become "lacs of chaps" which literally is a dismissive and derogatory slang in Queens English meaning "commoner/man of the street/street vendor".

In one single expression it gives out the real attitude of the Congress to the "common man on the street" of India. They are good as people only as long as they vote for the Congress or if they are Islamic "people" rioting [oh no they are not rioting as a mob but simply expressing peaceful democratic protest as defined by the Congress and their chaamchas] in the streets against issues hurting "Muslim" sentiments abroad or such deep humanitarian concerns as the anti-Islam Supreme Court verdict to pay lifelong alimony to the divorced wife. Or the lacs of "people" that come out in "drought" in the streets of Srinagar to protest "non-corruption" or "humanitarian" activities of the government to which of course the response from the highest as well as the lowest mosahib level is oh-so-soft and respectful.

Friends, as is shown by "lacs of chaps" comment, which I know comes from the same source which once gave out in a Freudian slip how much he looks down in contempt on "rural origins" as having the right to give or form opinions - and which never ever comments in a similar vituperative harangue on Islamist mob violence or leftist mobbing, and which smoothly tried to pass off a certain Delhi Congress stalwarts rioting role in the 1984 scene as "Hindu" "mobbing" - is simply the quintessential psychological outline of the current Congress core. Explore - you will find long entrenched urban business and financial interests, a disconnect from the general birth culture and non-urban India, possibly also a dose of superiority by birth syndrome -from lower "classes", a deep secret S&M fascination with Islamist or EJist elements for their robust imperialist muscle compared to their own hated birth culture - and a deep seated mercantile mentality to top it all, where everything is salable as a commodity - country, people, culture, faith, family - as long as it can bring in personal financial profits.

Congress has become synonymous with this mercantile mentality, and a deep disconnect from the masses. For many reasons this is not yet reflected in the electoral outcomes, which has been discussed threadbare many times before. Vast swathes of India face the very real retaliations of entrenched vested interests with the solid help of the rashtryia machinery - if they do not vote for those vested interests - and which in most cases have long developed mutual dependency relations with the regime at the centre. Official forces can protect only on the day of the election, but they will leave in a day- with the "chaps" back into the economic, social and coercive clutches of those vested interests. And "Congress chaps" here lambast those very people and use them cynically as proof of "people's" mandate!

I say, let the Congress and its urban, deracinated dhimmis shout as much as they can, and let them use the rashtryia machinery to prolong their happy financial milking of the nation. All those who participate, even the security forces or "ministry of interior" style enforcers, stand identified with the Congress if they continue to carry out Congress's political objectives. If they continue in this fashion, they will only force the "people" to choose those more militant in their methods - and a time will come when "Delhi" will fall, and the revenge and retribution on all those identified with the ruling regime will be beyond imagination.

Those who wish well for the Congress should try to make its core understand this, or leave the ship while they still can.

sunnyP · Post by **sunnyP** » 07 Jun 2011 17:56

I wish the opposition would devise a coherent and effective strategy to make full use of this blunder by the government and really put the pressure on the INC.

However, once again it seems like they are totally lost. Half of the party wants to full get behind Hazare and Ramdev in the hope that any resentment of the ruling party will automatically benefit the BJP. The other half seem to take the stance that giving non political players such importance will do them more harm than good in the long run. And as with most things which come out of 11 Ashoka Road, they always dither for too long and miss the boat. Wish they had a more assertive leadership circle.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 07 Jun 2011 18:09

^ why cant you do what you are suggesting others to do? why attack the opposition when the media which calls itself the watchdog has sold itself and is shamelessly beaming PAID NEWS for the congress and attacking ramdev? Why dont you question kapil sibal who represents dawood ibrahim as a lawyer and digivijay singh who is support of alqaeda idelogy?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 07 Jun 2011 18:13

The moral compass is generally askew for most parties...For every strident moral hectoring that BJP makes, all that INC has to do is to say "Yeddyurappa"...

But even after recognising that, it is important to remember that people are taking to political remedies more intensively than ever before...A relatively good governance record did not save the DMK from being wiped out...A relatively clean personal integrity quotient did not prevent the Left from being wiped out (finally) in WB...Both attributes together send Nitish Kumar and NArendra Modi back to power...

What we do lack as a country is a deeper engagement below the level of electoral politics...But its increasing...PILs started it...the RTI Act enabled a lot more of it...Economic liberalisation has given a lot more opportunities for a different quality of people-neta engagement..

The "civil society" is waking up and taking up cudgels (and not all to the liking of "nationalists")...But whatever be the cause, the methods cannot be ones that subvert republican values and constitutionalism that all citizens cherish...

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Jun 2011 18:16

sunnyP wrote:I wish the opposition would devise a coherent and effective strategy to make full use of this blunder by the government and really put the pressure on the INC.

However, once again it seems like they are totally lost. Half of the party wants to full get behind Hazare and Ramdev in the hope that any resentment of the ruling party will automatically benefit the BJP. The other half seem to take the stance that giving non political players such importance will do them more harm than good in the long run. And as with most things which come out of 11 Ashoka Road, they always dither for too long and miss the boat. Wish they had a more assertive leadership circle.

No the issue will fizzle out. Let the BJP do its politics and preparations for the electoral politics. They have already made good moves and corrective ones too - as with Uma Bharati in UP. AH and BR will be cornered using the rashtryia coercive machinery. But this has other long term consequences. Instead of the clamour here - that people should go for "electoral" mandate [which as I have explained will largely remain in vested interest hands for large parts of India], the conclusions drawn by people will be quite opposite. Because they already know that electoral changes do not change the vested interests, and AH [more urban middle class] and BR [a greater mix of rural populations] can try but their methods will not yield results before the combined coercive power of the political class and vested interests - they will seek out alternative more militant movements.

As a first step, the current behaviour of the Congress on AH or BR may initially strengthen the Maoists, but the selective brutality specifically on "saffron" will ultimately lead to non-Maoist quarters. And I do not necessarily think that it points to RSS as the Congress chamchaas here probably fondly hope for.

sunnyP · Post by **sunnyP** » 07 Jun 2011 18:20

Raghavendra wrote:^ why cant you do what you are suggesting others to do? why attack the opposition when the media which calls itself the watchdog has sold itself and is shamelessly beaming PAID NEWS for the congress and attacking ramdev? Why dont you question kapil sibal who represents dawood ibrahim as a lawyer and digivijay singh who is support of alqaeda idelogy?

Because I do not have the massive resources which the the second largest political party in India possess.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Jun 2011 18:22

The "civil society" argument is a red-herring. If we carefully analyze - only those "civil society" moves appear to yield "results" that are not against core Congress "interests". The tossing out of DMK coincided with deeper Congress interests according to many analysts. The civil society in WB had been agitating and shouting itself hoarse against the Left and its "corruption" for decades now - but nothing happened. Civil society seems to have had a magical impact suddenly after Karat's obstinacy made the Left ditch the Congress.

This is a classic page out of British imperialist strategy - allow only those moves and voices to "succeed" that do not go against ruler's interests.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 07 Jun 2011 18:22

somnath wrote:The "civil society" is waking up and taking up cudgels (and not all to the liking of "nationalists")...But whatever be the cause, the methods cannot be ones that subvert republican values and constitutionalism that all citizens cherish...

another lie thrown in stealthily

the ones afraid of this civil society are fake secularists like sonia, kapil, digivijaya. Ramdev who is a true secular and nationalist is the one who is supporting this civil society and getting beaten by the congress goon brigade and their communist allies in the media who peddle fake secularism for a living and are in the business of PAID NEWS

Samudragupta · Post by **Samudragupta** » 07 Jun 2011 18:27

brihaspati wrote:
sunnyP wrote:As a first step, the current behaviour of the Congress on AH or BR may initially strengthen the Maoists, but the selective brutality specifically on "saffron" will ultimately lead to non-Maoist quarters. And I do not necessarily think that it points to RSS as the Congress chamchaas here probably fondly hope for.

B ji,
Will 79 Persia is going to be repeated in India?...Because actions like this by the CP against the RSS will likely to force it to leave the Vishnu and Bramha 's line and probably take Rudra's line....But again that will allow the CP to propagate Islamism==Hinduvta line....almot a catch 22 situation....

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 07 Jun 2011 18:28

sunnyP wrote:
Raghavendra wrote:^ why cant you do what you are suggesting others to do? why attack the opposition when the media which calls itself the watchdog has sold itself and is shamelessly beaming PAID NEWS for the congress and attacking ramdev? Why dont you question kapil sibal who represents dawood ibrahim as a lawyer and digivijay singh who is support of alqaeda idelogy?

Because I do not have the massive resources which the the second largest political party in India possess.

If BJP supports ramdev, you people call him communal and if they dont support him you condemn BJP. And you dont need resources to speak the truth and condemn the corrupt congress, in your last post not one word condemning this corruption and fascist violent behaviour of sonia's chamchas. On one hand digvijaya verbally abuses ramdev calling him thug and on the other hand police beat him. So who is the thug for you? Ramdev or the congress goons, it's time you speak up instead of berating the opposition.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Jun 2011 18:35

Samudragupta wrote: B ji,
Will 79 Persia is going to be repeated in India?...Because actions like this by the CP against the RSS will likely to force it to leave the Vishnu and Bramha 's line and probably take Rudra's line....But again that will allow the CP to propagate Islamism==Hinduvta line....almot a catch 22 situation....

Khomeinis used the Marxists to start the uprising, and the whole thing was mediated by the US to get rid of the Shah. Do you think that those ingredients are in place?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Jun 2011 18:41

If the RSS was really that strong and a "danger" for the Congress, the Congress would have tried to penetrate it, buy it out, or compromise the leadership. RSS is simply a bogey used to preserve credentials to external audience of those imperialist ideologies that see "Hindu" as an obstacle for neo-imperialist control over the Indian "masses".

As and when needed, if the RSS was really a threat - it will be crushed quickly using the security forces which will remain loyal to the Congress. The Congress needs continued preservation of RSS just as it needs to preserve Pakistan. It helps in the dual tactic of staying in power as the "middleman" in the political trade by threatening one side to lean over to the other side - alternatively.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 07 Jun 2011 19:38

somnath wrote:
Neela wrote:Hopefully now you get an idea as to what BR and AH are trying to do
Not really...Actually there is a gulf of difference between what the folks "using" AH were trying to do and what BR is trying out..Likes of Arvind Kejriwal et al had a specific agenda in mind, ie, Lokpal, had an idea of what the animal should look like, and wanted to force the issue (which has been hanging fire for many decades over multiple shades of govts)....They used AH as a moral exemplar to garner attention...

BR, on the other hand, clearly has an agenda which is much bigger..Hence, he isnt unduly bothered with the details of the current issue he is raising...His understanding of the issue of black money, quantum, and above all, the remedies, are astoundingly shallow for a person who seemingly wants to embark on a "fast unto death" for the cause...That interview with Shekhar Gupta gives numerous insights into his thought process on the isue (or rather the sheer lack of it)...

As a result, it would be safe to conclude that the motives are larger political in nature..Which is not wrong at all, why not in fact? But then, holding a city hostage through a 24/7 televised tamasha is not acceptable...Political battles in a democracy need to be fought in the political domain, not in the garb of saintly mumbo jumbo...

I said earlier, today it is his mumbo jumbo on black money (a topic that he evidently understands nothing of)...tomorrow he will demand the same on the issue of homosexuality...Day after on repalcing English in schools...Will we be held hostage to such drama each time? Sorry, but if "civil society" impact has to be seen, examples to be emulated are examples of the Delhi citizenry forcing the govt to act on the Pridarshini Mattoo case, or the people of Bihar voting Nitish Kumar back to power on a pro-incumbency wave, or indeed the students/faculty/allumni of IIXs pushing back energetically at all absurdities spawned by MMJ/Arjun Singh....

This BR thing has no aim, no agenda, no nothing - almost as if the ostensible issue is a sideshow to the person raising it....If that is the case, let him join battle electorally, there is no reason for the Delhi citizenry to put up with the inconvenience...

Someone with little understanding of law and politics manages to throw Congress into a tizzy and has the whole nation spitting at the PM !

Tell you what...BR is more than what you portray him as. While I agree with you on his understanding of laws, he is not a complete fool. He has repeatedly targeted the Swiss money thing since 2009. And what does P.Mukherjee do? He says he cannot disclose names and sends a sealed envelope to Supreme Court. And BR ( and his army of followers ) somehow expect things to magically be solved the next day. He wants laws to be enacted. Your attitude towards BR is eerily similar to the English media ...people who dismissed him as a clown. And what does the clown do...have the whole world look at the high handedness of GoI.

You have to look at it from a simpleton's perspective.For the aam aadmi , corruption is a still a massive problem. He is venting his displeasure at this by supporting BR. BR uses this displeasure of his followers to push his demands. Some legitimate and some unreasonable ones. But does BR care? He has the following of hundreds of thousands. That makes his voice big. And he is forcing the hand of the Congress.

jagbani · Post by **jagbani** » 07 Jun 2011 19:50

I dont think that lok pall bill come into the effect as from the latest happening with Baba ramdev in Delhi its clear that Govt dont want to pass this bill. What happened in Delhi with Baba ramdev was really a shameful event. It shows that Govt is not in favor of the lok pall bill but still its time to wait for ANNA HAZARE next ANN Shann on 8th june so still wait and watch what will happen after that....

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 07 Jun 2011 20:58

somnath wrote: Not really...Actually there is a gulf of difference between what the folks "using" AH were trying to do and what BR is trying out..Likes of Arvind Kejriwal et al had a specific agenda in mind, ie, Lokpal, had an idea of what the animal should look like, and wanted to force the issue (which has been hanging fire for many decades over multiple shades of govts)....They used AH as a moral exemplar to garner attention...

Just to keep things clear: 1) there is nothing wrong with Ramdev and AH having varying agendas even if that includes complete destabilization and removal of the existing government for whatever reason they can think of and garner support. Only as long as they do so peacefully and so far their is no indication that they are resorting to violence. On the contrary its is quite clear that the current corrupt regime has no hesitation in resorting to violence.

His understanding of the issue of black money, quantum, and above all, the remedies, are astoundingly shallow for a person who seemingly wants to embark on a "fast unto death" for the cause...

There is no law or god given principal that says one must have only deep understanding of issue before attempting anything. We need more people like Ramdev who are willing to garner support and take action rather that those corrupt idots running their government and their ivory tower chitchat kind of friends.

History is written by people with passion who stand up for what they believe and take action but not by those who have some idotic notion of "deep understanding".

As a result, it would be safe to conclude that the motives are larger political in nature..

If the government, the congress party, and infact the rest of the political establishment in India was doing a good job to begin with, then people like AH and Ramdev would not have found political space to air their grievances.

Which is not wrong at all, why not in fact? But then, holding a city hostage through a 24/7 televised tamasha is not acceptable...

It is completely acceptable and in fact that has been in the best political traditions of this country include those practiced by congress, BJP, and scores of other political parties. The fact of the matter is that the current political establishment is doing a bad job of representing public opinion against corruption and this is the sole reason why people like AH and Ramdev are getting massive support.

Either you can wait 50 years and slowly chip away at the corrupt political establishment piece by piece or you can work towards engineering a quick and revolutionary change. Hopefully we will have both.

Political battles in a democracy need to be fought in the political domain, not in the garb of saintly mumbo jumbo...

Why? Is there a god given law that states this? Ramdev has full right to fight whichever political battles he chooses to fight either within or outside of the political system.

I said earlier, today it is his mumbo jumbo on black money (a topic that he evidently understands nothing of)...tomorrow he will demand the same on the issue of homosexuality...Day after on repalcing English in schools...Will we be held hostage to such drama each time?

You are imagining things. Please stop predicting the future. Even if Ramdev is not doing so. Even if he was doing so, he is perfectly entitled to do so to do his best to peacefully air his divergences.

If there is a fault here, it lies with the government and the political establishment. Because by corrupting and looting this country for decades the government has basically created an empty political vacuum which is being filled by people like Ramdev and AH.

This BR thing has no aim, no agenda, no nothing

Now you are contradicting yourself.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 07 Jun 2011 21:19

SomnathJI,

As SDREs, BJP or Congress, lets step out of the box and look at the big picture, and when you do, you will hang your head in shame.

Seditionists and traitors like A'Roy and Geelnai are welcomed with open arms as are murderers like Yasin Mallik under the garbs of democracy and free speech. A terrorist like Musharaff is referred to as MushraffJi by squalid pukes like Many Shankar Aiyar, he is laid out the red capret and Delhi elite grovel before him. And need I mention anything about that crass pervert DigVijay Singh?

A rustic son of the soil wants to talk about corruption, stakes out a peaceful protest march, and the vitriol, the hate, the disdain, the contempt, and utimately the violence unleashed on him and his followers is shocking. Looking at this from afar, would you not cut one some slack when the conclusion is that SDREs are a bunch of cowards who can only take on those who can't hit back but will grovel before someone who can?

Now one doesn't have to take everything BR says seriously, but surely, there are other ways of taking him on than the barabarity and hate that MMS has unleashed on him. As an aside, just look at how useless brain-dead filth like Sarah Palin is being feted and propped up in US by the establishment as a daughter of the soil, while in India, it is fashionable to not only denigrate, but bludgeon sons of soil into oblivion.

Here is another gory manifestation of SDRE colonial mind. This chutiya Ramachandra Guha is hailed as some kind of historian. Now while he disses Indian gurus as seeking publicity; he even attacks Sri Sri Ravishankar for hobknobbing with India's rich and powerful (whats wrong with that, rich can't be spiritual seekers?), he has nothing but effusive respect for Dalai Lama

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Performan ... 06531.aspx

Its so fashinable among Indian elites that while they diss their own spiritual masters as frauds and charlatans, they have utmost reverence for the Dalai Lama. Why? Because identifying with Dalai Lama is a fad with Richard Gere and other Hollywood western celebrities, never mind that they don't practice even a fraction, not even an iota of the Dalai Lama's moderate, temperate lifestyle teachings. And not only that, Dala Lama makes frequest trips to the upper east side of NY hobknobbing with white elites, addressing the US Congress who only pay lip service to the Tibetan cause; but that is not seeking publicity.

How dare BR and Sri Sri seek out SDRE rich and famous? They are SDREs after all and hence must seek spiritualism in solitude, because Guha said so.