Indian Army: News & Discussion

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 23 Oct 2011 16:42

^^^Indian Army chopper enters Pak airspace, crew taken into custody
TOI with video

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 23 Oct 2011 17:35

They will land on indian soil in 40 mins. Alreeady crossed LoC into India

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 Oct 2011 17:56

shyamd wrote:They will land on indian soil in 40 mins. Alreeady crossed LoC into India

Already back.

Indian Army helicopter back from Pakistani Occupied Kashmir

Sanju · Post by **Sanju** » 23 Oct 2011 23:49

Question is what was the 'quid pro quo'?

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 24 Oct 2011 00:39

now that Pak has done a good deed, are we to look away when Pak sends it choppers into our territory, intentionally?
if not, we will be marked the uncivilised untrustworthy ...

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 24 Oct 2011 02:05

rohitvats wrote:^^^Will reply in detail in some time.

But please save the above article for sake of reference and posterity. Read it in detail. This is the best commentary (so far) on the changes in Indian war-fighting effort...if you have access to old article on IA war-games, read them again in the back-drop of the above article. Suddenly lot of things will make more sense. For example, do people remember the exercise about II Corps mobilizing a combat group in 48hours? Or, the recent article on Sudarshan Shakti exercise by 21 Corps? I'm posting the article on the latter. Please read the same in context of the article above about new war-fighting doctrine:

Gen V K Singh says the doctrinal shift is about the 2 front war.

Some excertps about Sudrshan shakti:

"Sudarshan Shakti, which will enter its final phase in early-December, is geared towards a conventional integrated land-air war-fighting machinery. Army and IAF have seriously stepped up operational synergy along the entire western front,'' said another officer.

Consequently, the Southern Army Command under Lt-Gen A K Singh is working in close conjunction with its naval and air force counterparts for the Sudarshan Shakti exercise, with troops already being mobilised.

The exercise primarily revolves around the 21 Corps, one of Army's three principal strike formations apart from 1 Corps and 2 Corps, tasked with taking the battle right into enemy territory. The `Vijayee Bhava' exercise, incidentally, was conducted to hone the combat skills of the 2 Corps.

Even as Army now "transforms'' itself by consolidating its strike capabilities, the 1.13-million force is also focusing on streamlining operational logistics to ensure it can rapidly mobilize and sustain multiple armoured thrusts.

"The exercise envisages innovative manoeuvres, in a simulated battle environment, by composite combat entities, ably supported by air and complemented by a wide array of force-multipliers and enabling logistics. In short, it's based on the integrated theatre battle concept,'' said an officer.

Interestingly, the Army commanders' conference to be held in New Delhi next week will discuss the various "transformational initiatives'' underway as well as augmentation of "all-weather'' or night-fighting capabilities.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 24 Oct 2011 06:45

AdityaM wrote:now that Pak has done a good deed, are we to look away when Pak sends it choppers into our territory, intentionally?
if not, we will be marked the uncivilised untrustworthy ...

Why? Just force it to land, check for surveillance equipment, and let them go if nothing is found, once

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Oct 2011 08:45

^^ Well, Desh also did let lot of such straying during the earthquake time and didnt bother to even force land the planes violating LoC at that time to show good faith...

So, this should just be called a return of that compliment..

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 24 Oct 2011 21:20

shyamd wrote:In Defence of Republic of India.

Deadlier war doctrine
.......

rohitvats ji,would be great to hear your thoughts on this.
TIA

Under the new scheme of things to come, holding corps have been re-designated as pivot corps with the task to secure objectives in enemy territory and lay the foundation for launching strike formations.

The objective of pivot corps is to defend Indian territory. In the stories about past wars, we read that reserve had to rush to reinforce holes and loosing holding battalion or divisions.

Now, If pivot corps are going to act both ways, than I hope (I am sure they would have it) they would have a plan 'B' to manage holes and reinforce battalion or divisions during defense.

The reason I asked it here because , if any one have an idea please add some light on it.

-Ankit

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 24 Oct 2011 22:51

Sanju wrote:Question is what was the 'quid pro quo'?

At this time the pakis have bigger fish to fry in terms of getting us to withdraw objections for their (very much beyond their quota) preferential access to the EU markets for their textiles.
Our help would stop bangladesh and some other countries from protesting too much and give the pakis the big lollipop that they so badly want.

MMS is willing but our babus are dragging it out and not cooperating.

We have foolishly given them a golden opportunity to exploit us yet again.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 25 Oct 2011 09:08

Army to set up 72 ranges to train sharpshooters - TOI

NEW DELHI: The Army has decided to set up "baffle ranges'' to ensure its soldiers can be properly trained to become sharpshooters. The force has been grappling with a steep decline in availability of firing ranges due to rapid urbanization and growing environmental and safety concerns.

Civilians being killed or injured by stray bullets from firing ranges has long troubled the Army, which has seen inhabitations come up around its once-secluded 62 cantonments and other military establishments around the country.

Consequently, the 1.13-million force has got the defence ministry's nod for construction for 72 baffle ranges, which require less than 50 acres of real estate as compared to about 500 acres needed for conventional small arms practice firing ranges.

"Apart from less land, baffle ranges use a system of ground barriers, side-walls, baffle walls and stop-butts to stop or trap misdirected or ricocheting bullets. They can prevent casualties and accidents due to stray bullets,'' said an officer.

There are a few baffle ranges in places like Bangalore and Chandimandir, constructed by the Terminal Ballistic Research Laboratory, but the plan is to go in for them across the country, including the Andaman and Nicobar Islands.

The Army is also battling a shortage in larger ranges like field-firing ranges (FFRs) and manoeuvre ranges to train soldiers for use of heavier weapons.

Of the 104 FFR ranges it once had, it is now left with only 66. ``With notifications of many ranges steadily expiring, it becomes extremely tough to get re-notification due to environmental laws and safety concerns,'' said another officer.

The force also wants to establish long-range FFRs to practice the use of artillery guns and rockets with a range up to 90 km. For division-level exercises of battle-groups, it is banking upon two new ``manoeuvre ranges'' at Shahgarh (Rajasthan) and Narayanpur (Chhattisgarh) - the latter is located in the middle of a Maoist stronghold.

Similarly, as earlier reported by TOI, IAF is also finding it tough for its fighters to practice air-to-ground bombing in at least four of its seven ranges - Dolland Mukh Range (Assam), Tilpat Range (UP), Singpur Range (Gujarat) and Sarmat Range (Madhya Pradesh) - due to spurt in civilian air traffic and urbanization around these areas.

India provides training facilities to armed forces of some countries like Singapore, where land and airspace is a scarce commodity. For instance, Singapore's mechanized and artillery forces train at Babina and Deolali ranges, while its fighters exercise at West Bengal's Kalaikunda airbase.

chiragAS · Post by **chiragAS** » 25 Oct 2011 15:16

The Army is also battling a shortage in larger ranges like field-firing ranges (FFRs) and manoeuvre ranges to train soldiers for use of heavier weapons.

Of the 104 FFR ranges it once had, it is now left with only 66. ``With notifications of many ranges steadily expiring, it becomes extremely tough to get re-notification due to environmental laws and safety concerns,'' said another officer.

F&cking Builders and politico nexus. They have sold off army areas for their own benifts.
i have seen it in mumbai (not FFRs ), where local muncipal corporation heeded to their political masters in the name of silly reasons like no place for schools and no place for people; have encroached upon and then regularised it after seeking permission from center. now there are tall buildings surrounding them. where aam junta sits and make fun of soldiers doing mornning drills.

who needs an enemy when we have such b@stards eating away from inside.

sorry for the rant

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 25 Oct 2011 17:14

Same story in Bangalore. Politicos have their eye on the military farm.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 27 Oct 2011 06:32

Army needs Rs 41,000 crore to rev up waning firepower

NEW DELHI: The Navy and IAF may be on the modernization track at a pace that's much slower than desired, but it's the Army which seems to be floundering. The 1.13-million-strong force needs as much as Rs 41,000 crore to meet even existing shortages in equipment and ammunition.

The Army has painted a grim picture in its 11th Plan (2007-2012) review, pointing at operational gaps artillery, aviation, air defence & nightfighting capabilities, ATGMs (anti-tank guided missiles), PGMs (precision-guided munitions) and specialized tank and rifle ammunition, say sources.

Holding that the "hollowness" in ammunition and equipment is "still critical", the 11th Plan review to the defence ministry says around Rs 41,000 crore will be required "to make up current deficiencies". This, when both China and Pakistan are rapidly modernizing their forces.

Incidentally, the Army itself has projected the remote but nevertheless plausible eventuality of a simultaneous "two-front war" in a worst-case scenario, as was first reported by TOI earlier.

But the force is nowhere near 100% operational capability, which an earlier projection held would be possible only by the end of the 14th Plan in 2027.

Take, for instance, ATGMs. While "authorized holding" for these missiles is over 80,000, just about half that number is actually held by the infantry, mechanized infantry and armoured corps, say sources. Similarly, the Bofors ghost is yet to be exorcised, with the force failing to induct any new 155mm howitzers since the infamous 1980s scandal.

A senior official, however, said, "Deficiencies are being made up. The Defence Acquisitions Council and Cabinet Committee on Security have cleared some major contracts. It will take some time for the equipment to reach troops."

The Bofors ghost is yet to be exorcised, with the force failing to induct any new 155mm howitzers since the 1980s scam.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Oct 2011 07:03

What do they plan to need 80,000 ATGMS for? Battle the Orcs?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 27 Oct 2011 08:57

^^ ATGMs are not just anti tank weapons. To tanks, add enemy IFV, SPH(T), engineering/bridging, communications/support vehicles and the number of missiles required to take on them increases.

In addition, ATGMs are mostly used for bunker busting. Their 2-4 km range and precision guidance allows enemy fortifications to be taken out of range of HMG/MMG/infantry weapons in those fortifications.

Most infantry casualties in Kargil was for this reason, and in later part of the conflict decreased, when Milan/Konkurs was used to target bunkers.

80,000 is still on the lower side, should go up with the new corps.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 27 Oct 2011 09:10

tsarkar wrote:^^ ATGMs are not just anti tank weapons. To tanks, add enemy IFV, SPH(T), engineering/bridging, communications/support vehicles and the number of missiles required to take on them increases.

In addition, ATGMs are mostly used for bunker busting. Their 2-4 km range and precision guidance allows enemy fortifications to be taken out of range of HMG/MMG/infantry weapons in those fortifications.

Most infantry casualties in Kargil was for this reason, and in later part of the conflict decreased, when Milan/Konkurs was used to target bunkers.

80,000 is still on the lower side, should go up with the new corps.

ATGM - Anti Tank Guided Munition-- Will the missile not use the target's physical property (Metal, Heat, Movement) as an input for its guidance and use it for its flight profile? just curious.. I thought most of them are designed to be top kill ..can an ATGM be used for bunker neutralizer?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 27 Oct 2011 09:34

prithvi wrote:
tsarkar wrote:^^ ATGMs are not just anti tank weapons. To tanks, add enemy IFV, SPH(T), engineering/bridging, communications/support vehicles and the number of missiles required to take on them increases.

In addition, ATGMs are mostly used for bunker busting. Their 2-4 km range and precision guidance allows enemy fortifications to be taken out of range of HMG/MMG/infantry weapons in those fortifications.

Most infantry casualties in Kargil was for this reason, and in later part of the conflict decreased, when Milan/Konkurs was used to target bunkers.

80,000 is still on the lower side, should go up with the new corps.
ATGM - Anti Tank Guided Munition-- Will the missile not use the target's physical property (Metal, Heat, Movement) as an input for its guidance and use it for its flight profile? just curious.. I thought most of them are designed to be top kill ..can an ATGM be used for bunker neutralizer?

Prithvi, your understanding of ATGM guidance is grossly incorrect, please learn more. I'll give you a starting point, SACLOS and IIR. Most operational ATGM today use the former, while up-coming ATGM use the latter.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Oct 2011 09:50

there are loads of videos of IDF choppers putting ATGMs through windows of buildings suspected of harbouring terrorists. lest this be misunderstood, I would like to point out that buildings are NOT tanks or APC's and their physical characteristics are vastly different.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Oct 2011 09:58

prithvi wrote: <SNIP> ATGM - Anti Tank Guided Munition-- Will the missile not use the target's physical property (Metal, Heat, Movement) as an input for its guidance and use it for its flight profile? just curious.. I thought most of them are designed to be top kill ..can an ATGM be used for bunker neutralizer?

An ATGM is like a bullet which can be steered - so fire it at anything you will and using the guidance mechanism ensure that it stays course. Infact, over last decade, ATGM have evolved as all purpose weapons with bunker busting being one of the major areas.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 27 Oct 2011 10:02

tsarkar wrote:
prithvi wrote: ATGM - Anti Tank Guided Munition-- Will the missile not use the target's physical property (Metal, Heat, Movement) as an input for its guidance and use it for its flight profile? just curious.. I thought most of them are designed to be top kill ..can an ATGM be used for bunker neutralizer?
Prithvi, your understanding of ATGM guidance is grossly incorrect, please learn more. I'll give you a starting point, SACLOS and IIR. Most operational ATGM today use the former, while up-coming ATGM use the latter.

thanks for your input .. and just to make sure.. I hoped you did not feel offended by my question or anything .. as I said "I am curious" .. and did not pretend I know for sure..

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Oct 2011 10:12

^^ NDTV had a small feature on the LAC and showed the Indian side and the Chinese side ( from a distance of course).... stark difference in the infra on both sides with amazing metalled roads and lots of barracks, 3-4 storey high concrete watchtowers and dumps coming up at lightning speed on other side.

Also, few pics of the Indian and Chinese troops facing up by holding flags and banners were shown ( must have been taken by the IA).

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 27 Oct 2011 10:19

rohitvats wrote:
prithvi wrote: <SNIP> ATGM - Anti Tank Guided Munition-- Will the missile not use the target's physical property (Metal, Heat, Movement) as an input for its guidance and use it for its flight profile? just curious.. I thought most of them are designed to be top kill ..can an ATGM be used for bunker neutralizer?
An ATGM is like a bullet which can be steered - so fire it at anything you will and using the guidance mechanism ensure that it stays course. Infact, over last decade, ATGM have evolved as all purpose weapons with bunker busting being one of the major areas.

Can Nag then be used as bunker busters as well? what is the key difference between plain vanilla ATGMs and the ones which have more diverse usages? ..
disclaimers: A question in this context and not refuting anyone's assertion

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Oct 2011 10:27

prithvi wrote:<SNIP> Can Nag then be used as bunker busters as well? what is the key difference between plain vanilla ATGMs and the ones which have more diverse usages? ..
disclaimers: A question in this context and not refuting anyone's assertion

Reply in newbie thread. Thanx.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 27 Oct 2011 10:52

http://www.rediff.com/news/infantry-2011.html

Rediff series on Indian Army's Infantry

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Oct 2011 10:53

Guys, Jai Jawan at 2pm IST TODAY.....Ranbir Kapoor with 1 PARA(SF) in Nahan. Do watch NDTV Profit.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Oct 2011 11:20

Another brilliant article on the events leading to 1962 war:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/dec/18chin.htm

"I remember many a time when our senior generals came to us, and wrote to the defence ministry saying that they wanted certain things... If we had had foresight, known exactly what would happen, we would have done something else... what India has learnt from the Chinese invasion is that in the world of today there is no place for weak nations... We have been living in an unreal world of our own creation."

Jawaharlal Nehru, Rajya Sabha, 1963

Instead of "I", Nehru used the collective "we", a clear indication of his reluctance to own up his own mistakes as a man.

"The fact of the matter is that Nehru felt a gnawing of conscience throughout this episode. He knew that the blame for the disaster was more his than that of his loyal friend [defence minister V K Krishna Menon]," says journalist and historian Durga Das.

"The decision-making system during 1959-62 was starkly ad hoc and designed primarily to suit the personality of the Prime Minister -- who preferred to deal with these matters personally -- even Krishna Menon seldom took a stand on any point or even made a contribution when the Prime Minister was in the chair... in the Army Headquarters, it was General Kaul who had caught the Prime Minister's eye... It was not Krishna Menon who was primarily culpable for the practice of General Officers establishing direct access to politicians... It was Nehru who, many years previously, first established this irregularity," says the then director general of military operations, Brigadier (later Major General) D K Palit, in his book War in High Himalayas.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Oct 2011 11:29

Some other brilliant articles by same author:

How Nehru Let Us down: http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/dec/03chin.htm

Excerpt:

As for our leaders then, only Sardar Patel had some understanding of the concept of sovereignty. Nehru always displayed an abject lack of it. Examples are galore, right from the time of Partition.

His refusal to accept the accession of the State of Jammu and Kashmir on September 19, 1947, when it was originally offered by Maharaja Hari Singh, a good five weeks before the invasion of his state by Pakistan. Had the accession been accepted then, the entire state would have been ours. The Pakistan of those days would never have dared attack India, so superior was our military strength on account of the division of the armed forces on religious lines.

Later, Nehru practically surrendered our sovereignty when he invited Lord Louis Mountbatten, the governor general, to preside over and chair the meetings of his own Cabinet and the Cabinet Committee on Defence on matters regarding the accession and the military action after Pakistan invaded Jammu and Kashmir. Mountbatten, basically a servant of the British Crown, did his best to delay the decisions.

Worse, as India started winning the war and liberating parts of north Kashmir, Nehru inexplicably (most likely under the strong influence of Mountbatten and his wife, who shaped much of his thinking in those days) declared a 'ceasefire' and stopped our victorious army dead in its tracks before it could liberate the entire state. He declared the ceasefire arbitrarily, without consulting his full Cabinet, the Constituent Assembly (as Parliament was then known), his military commanders, or the maharaja/prime minister of Jammu and Kashmir.

Nehru was the architect of Article 370, with which he burdened India to placate a hurt Sheikh Abdullah.

The Chinese occupation of Tibet should have forced a reassessment of the threat to India. After they enforced their suzerainty on Tibet in 1951, the threat deserved greater attention. But when General K M Cariappa met Nehru to discuss the defence of the North East Frontier Agency, he was bluntly told to mind only Kashmir and Pakistan as his concerns for defence and leave China to the politicians and the diplomats.

As Lieutenant General S P P Thorat recounts in his autobiography 'From Reveille to Retreat', "When [in 1959] I, as GoC-in-C Eastern Command, met Menon in Delhi, I opened the subject [of defence against the Chinese] with him. In his usually sarcastic style he said that there would be no war between India and China and [if there was] he was quite capable of fighting it himself at the diplomatic level."

Nehru learnt no lessons from the war in Kashmir. Practicality always took a back seat in his mind, which was dominated by idealism. He went on emotionally in his rhetoric of 'Hindi Chini bhai bhai', all the while considering himself a superior international statesman and India an elder brother of China.

He was proudly going around as the unchallenged leader of the Third World. He failed to realise that the Chinese leaders had begun to resent his approach and his manner of dealing with them, that as per them China was the natural leader of the Third World, that the initial bond of personal friendship he had formed with the Chinese leaders was not strong enough to withstand this strain, and that personal relations can never score over vital national interests in any case. Countries fight wars when their vital interests are threatened. Nehru and Krishna Menon failed to understand this.

Nehru's rigidity on the border issue, his insistence on Chinese withdrawal before border talks could begin, his grant of political asylum to the Dalai Lama and permission to him to establish a Tibetan government-in-exile (an act that created conditions for a future invasion of Tibet by India or outside powers through India to restore the Dalai Lama's rule, if desired), the hostile Indian press on the question of the occupation of Tibet, and Nehru's increasingly aggressive statements on the border made the Chinese believe he had become a tool in the hands of the Anglo-American imperialists.

Chinese Premier Zhou Enlai was maintaining a friendly posture, but he had practically begun to hate Nehru, as is clear from the text of his conversations with US President Richard Nixon in 1972, now made public. There were possibly some outward signs of this and some hints were dropped, but Nehru was blind to them. The Chinese, basically secretive in nature, were also not very open about their ill feelings.

The Chinese also knew that India was unprepared for a high-altitude war, and there was no imperial power behind her with any ready plan to enter Tibet. Since the Indian threat was unreal, punishing Nehru must have been the only, or a major, motive for their attacks.

Nehru continued with his blind love for socialism and an oppressed sister nation. Zhou and his generals were invited for many military functions like the passing out parade of the National Defence Academy, firepower demonstration/exercises by the army, and even visits to the various military establishments like the Defence Services Staff College and the College of Combat, Mhow. Zhou embraced the young cadets passing out then with affection, but had no qualms in butchering them when they were guarding our borders in 1962 as young officers.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Oct 2011 13:46

Indian Army celebrates 64th Infantry Day

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 28 Oct 2011 06:58

Governor, N N Vohra during the Wreath Laying Ceremony at Sikh War Memorial at Baramulla on the occasion of Infantary Day on Thursday.
Daily Excelsior

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 28 Oct 2011 08:46

What happened to the COAS age row? The chief petitioned the De(a)f Min in Aug AFAIK. Delay tactics..?

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 29 Oct 2011 10:21

India Toying With Dangerous Cold Start War Doctrine – Analysis

LINK

SOURCE: BrigGen (ret) Dr. Muhammad Aslam Khan Niazi (Pakistani army)

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Oct 2011 12:02

^^^Another delusional article by another retarded pakistani.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 29 Oct 2011 14:25

self deleted

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 29 Oct 2011 14:27

joshvajohn wrote:http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fb ... =1&theater

I do not know whether to post it here as our Army Jawans in Sikkim flood regions to help people there. proud of such great work. I am not sure Indian media ever gives good stories - about indian army.

Errrr.. Isn't that PLA?

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 29 Oct 2011 14:41

deleted

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 29 Oct 2011 14:45

joshvajohn wrote:http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fb ... =1&theater

I do not know whether to post it here as our Army Jawans in Sikkim flood regions to help people there. proud of such great work. I am not sure Indian media ever gives good stories - about indian army.

This same picture was discussed a few pages ago in this thread... Lets not repeat the same.. Its a picture of PLA troops rescuing people from the floods in china that occurred in 2010, i assume..

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 29 Oct 2011 14:47

thanks deleted my post!

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 29 Oct 2011 14:48

joshvajohn wrote:I am not sure! Possibly Sikkim regiment! We need to verify this.
Is this then PLA in Sikkim? If you have strong evidence to suggest your point i will remove my post!

This is not Sikkim. This is not Sikkim Regiment. This is Chinese PLA in China disaster zone.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 29 Oct 2011 14:52

FYI Joshva,
There is no regiment called the Sikkim Regiment in the Indian Army, at least until now.