JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

[NRao]

IF a nation can afford the Rafale or the EuroFighter, they can certainly afford the JSF. Just that the JSF being so new will have teething issues - like any new technology (and bad promises granted). But, in the longer run it should work out a better option.

It is still too early to determine if LM and group will deliver. We have to wait for the LRIP-6 version to come out next summer.

On the JSF MRO front, Australia is moving to accept the JSF.

[Katare]

I think new generation products are always cheaper than older ones. Unit cost is usually higher than older one but each new one replaces multiple units of old ones, provides new capabilities, higher sortie rates, longer sortie etc. From start JSF was designed to be low cost solution both in unit cost and life cycle costs. I think it'll set new standards for cost vs value for all the 5th gen aircrafts world over.

I am afraid there will be delays, slipups, revisions, dilutions and screw-ups but it'll get there. It'll be a success because resources available to make it a success are beyond anything that anyone has seen before. Entire developed world is behind this project, if it can be done there is no better team than the one working on it.

India could wait for few years or sign on and get a few in next 5 years. The psycological impact on Paki/Chini moral would be worth it.

I support Rafale deal as it is at the earliest. Anything else would take another decade to complete. By that time Modi ji be completing his second term and pappu ji might be coming to power.

[NRao]

Nov 26, 2013 :: http://www.naval-technology.com/news/newsrolls-royce-additional-liftsystem-usmcs

Rolls-Royce has received a contract from Pratt & Whitney to develop and support LiftSystems for the US Marine Corps' (USMC) F-35B Lightning II joint strike fighter programme.

Under the $215m sixth production lot contract, Rolls-Royce will provide six LiftSystems to provide the Lockheed Martin-built F-35B aircraft with the capability to conduct short take-offs and vertical landings (STOVL).

Rolls-Royce will also provide sustainment, programme management, engineering and field support as part of the contract.

Rolls-Royce LiftSystem programme director, Dave Gordon, said the Rolls-Royce LiftSystem continues to validate its effectiveness in field operation as well as in the recent F-35B shipboard trials onboard the US Navy's Wasp-class amphibious assault ship USS Wasp (LHD 1).

"As we expand our field support, we remain focused on efficiency and further increasing the affordability of LiftSystems for the F-35B Lightning II," Gordon said.
"LiftFan can generate more than 20,000lbf of thrust from a conventional gas turbine and produce the forward vertical lift."

The LiftSystem features the Rolls-Royce LiftFan, a driveshaft, three bearing swivel modules and two roll posts on the wings, to provide a stabilising downward thrust.

The two-stage counter-rotating fan, LiftFan, can generate more than 20,000lbf of thrust from a conventional gas turbine and produce the forward vertical lift while 3BSM swivelling jet pipe will provide the rear vertical lift, by redirecting the main engine thrust downward.

Designed and developed in collaboration with Northrop Grumman and BAE Systems, the Lockheed Martin-built F-35 JSF aircraft is powered by a single Pratt & Whitney F135 afterburner turbofan engine and has combat radius and maximum range of 833km and 1,667km respectively.

Capable of flying at a maximum speed of 1,960km/h, the single-engine, fifth-generation F-35B fighter aircraft has been designed to replace the F/A-18 Hornet and AV-8B Harrier II fighter aircraft which are currently in service with the USMC.

Rolls-Royce receives $215 million contract for Liftsystem production, support for F-35B Lightning II

Rolls-Royce has been awarded a $215 million contract to produce and support LiftSystems™ for the F-35 Lightning II program, and F-35B jets continue to demonstrate success in operations, training and test.

The unique technology of the Rolls-Royce LiftSystem® provides F-35B aircraft with the capability to perform short take-offs and vertical landings (STOVL) and is currently in service with the US Marine Corps in Yuma, Arizona.

The new agreement with Pratt & Whitney for the sixth production lot includes six LiftSystems, plus sustainment, program management, engineering and field support.

Dave Gordon, Rolls-Royce, LiftSystem Program Director, said, "The innovative Rolls-Royce LiftSystem continues to demonstrate its effectiveness in field operation and in the recent F-35B shipboard trials on the USS Wasp. As we expand our field support, we remain focused on efficiency and further increasing the affordability of LiftSystems for the F-35B Lightning II."

Rolls-Royce has delivered 42 LiftSystems and has expanded field support to include five locations where F-35B aircraft are flown. Those include Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, where a USMC pilot recently conducted the first short take-off and vertical landing of an F-35B at the base.

Additionally, the F-35B fleet continues to demonstrate success as it nears multiple major milestones. In over 450 flights of Mode 4 operation ("powered lift" mode) F-35B aircraft have completed over 1,000 short take-offs, 640 vertical landings (including over 150 aboard the USS Wasp), 550 slow landings and 250 hover test points.

In addition to supporting the recent Wasp ship trials, Rolls-Royce is working with the US Marine Corps to prepare for achieving Initial Operational Capability in 2015.

[NRao]

Dec 02, 2013 :: Seoul’s F-35 Plans Thump F-15 Silent Eagle

South Korea's decision to sacrifice force structure in favor of buying into stealth with the F-35—a boon for Lockheed Martin's premier fighter program—quashes Boeing's hopes of selling it a semi-stealthy F-15.

Seoul plans to buy 40 F-35As to satisfy its F-X Phase 3 fighter requirement, initially set at 60 aircraft, its joint chiefs of staff announced last month. Another 20 fighters, not necessarily F-35s, may be ordered later, subject to security and fiscal circumstances. The choice was influenced by overwhelming support in the South Korean military for the F-35. The buy was cut by one-third to keep it within an 8.3 billion won ($7.2 billion) budget.

Though it is a long shot, Boeing is still pushing the Silent Eagle for the remaining requirement of 20 fighters. Dennis Muilenburg, president of Boeing Defense, Space and Security, said in October that the country might be open to a mixed buy, and news of Seoul's F-35 decision has not changed that position.

“The Silent Eagle is still available,” Karen Fincutter, a Boeing spokeswoman, said last week, adding that the company had not yet been officially notified of South Korea's decision. “It's one of the upgrade options for the F-15.”

The other contender for South Korea's fighter program, the Eurofighter consortium, led by EADS in South Korea, also seems to have a remote chance of filling the later 20-aircraft order with the Typhoon.

Lockheed Martin is expected to deliver the aircraft over four years beginning in 2018. If the F-35 is selected, the other 20 would immediately follow.

The air force effectively chose the F-35 about two weeks ago when, according to local media reports, it set a numerical requirement for radar cross-section. This followed the derailment of the original competition in August, when it was revealed that only Boeing could meet the budget. Instead of completing the competition in the usual way by giving the order to a particular company, the government decided to review its requirements, budget and process.

Most of the South Korean air force leadership has always seen the F-35 as the desirable aircraft, according to government officials, though at the last minute the air force chief was willing to take F-15s so that new fighters could enter service without further delay.

F-X Phase 3 has been aimed at replacing old and increasingly ineffective F-4 Phantoms and F-5 Tigers. Under Phases 1 and 2 in the last decade, South Korea ordered 61 F-15s, including a replacement for one that crashed.

The selection in favor of high-end stealth is a major blow to Boeing's hopes of selling semi-stealthy Silent Eagles to its longtime F-15 customer and thereby keeping the production line active. Boeing is now left with the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, modified with low-observable features, as its sole potential competitor to the F-35 for countries seeking near-term stealth fighter options.

“The F-35A will be used as a strategic weapon to gain a competitive edge and defeat the enemy in the early stage of war,” the Yonhap news agency quotes the joint chiefs of staff spokesman, Eom Hyo-sik, as saying. “The South Korean military will also use the aircraft to effectively deal with provocations.”

If the additional 20 F-35s are ordered, the requirements will be reconsidered, he adds, though industry officials expect no real competition.

In the same meeting last week, the joint chiefs endorsed the KF-X indigenous fighter program for the mid-term defense budget plan. That does not assure its survival, however. The fiscally and technically challenging KF-X faces stiff political opposition, and its 2014 funding is expected to cover only further design studies.

The military wants KF-X development to be wrapped up by 2020, with deployment starting in 2023, Yonhap says, citing unnamed officials. The three-year gap between the completion of development and beginning of deployment is not explained, but 2020 is not a realistic date by which the aircraft can be ready for service, anyway. The program schedule puts first flight seven years after the launch of full scale development, which cannot now happen until 2015.

[Philip]

US fiscal woes affecting defence acquisitions including JSFs.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-0 ... passe.html

F-35 Jets

Navy officials have said the continuing resolution is likely to limit or delay purchases of the F-35 jet and a military transport plane made by Bethesda, Maryland-based Lockheed.

The worst will come if Congress can’t pass a bill to fund the government after Jan. 15 and instead enacts another continuing resolution at lower spending levels, Admiral Jonathan Greenert told the Senate Armed Services Committee on Nov. 7.

Under that scenario, the Navy won’t award contracts for the floating base or the Virginia-class submarine during the fiscal year, Greenert said.

The Navy also would have to cancel some purchases of F-35s, Northrop’s E-2D Hawkeye aircraft, and United Technologies Corp. (UTX)’s MH-60 Seahawk helicopters, Greenert told lawmakers.

[NRao]

Hill chosen as first operational base for F-35

After years of study and a few delays, it's finally official -- the F-35 is coming to Hill Air Force Base.

The Pentagon announced Tuesday that Hill has been selected as the new home for the Air Force's first operational fleet of the F-35A Lightning II.

Air Force officials chose Hill after a lengthy analysis of multiple locations that took nearly four years. The process included an extensive Environmental Impact Statement that examined impacts on factors like air quality, noise, land use and socioeconomics.

According to the EIS, the jet is 21 to 25 decibels louder during takeoff than its predecessor, the F-16. But it's comparable to the F-22, which also flies out of Hill, in terms of noise.

The base had previously been tabbed as the Air Force's preferred site for the F-35 since 2010. Hill is also home to the F-35 depot, which provides fleet maintenance support.

Pentagon officials said Tuesday the base's proximity to the Utah Test and Training Range, it's history with the F-16 and the F-35 depot work were all factors in Hill's selection.

Base spokesman Rich Essary said construction related to the new jet will begin on base almost immediately, in order to prepare for the first fleet of F-35As, which are scheduled to arrive in 2015. The EIS says there will be a number of construction and renovation projects, which could cost as much as $41 million.

The base is projected to receive 72 of the jets. They will ultimately replace the 48 F-16 Fighting Falcons currently assigned to Hill.

"Selecting Hill to host (the F-35) is a tribute to the 388th and 419th Fighter Wings' rich heritage," said Col. Kathryn Kolbe, 75th Air Base Wing commander. "It is fitting the 388th Fighter Wing become the first fully operational F-35 unit, just as it was with the F-16 in January 1979."

The F-35A, manufactured by Lockheed Martin, is a fifth-generation fighter aircraft intended to be the Air Force's premier strike aircraft through the first half of the 21st Century. It is a multi-role fighter that is expected to eventually replace the service's F-16 and A-10 fleets.

Since 2006, the F-35 program has been subject to a number of reassessments and delays. Concerns over the jet's performance and the rising costs for its production cycle have also been controversial.

But Utah's Congressional Delegation says the basing decision is a clear vote of confidence in the future of Hill.

"The F-35 has been referred to as the backbone of U.S. air combat for the next generation," said Congressman Rob Bishop, a senior Member of the House Armed Services Committee. "This decision is very good news for Utah."

U.S. Senators Orrin Hatch and Mike Lee also responded.

"Today's announcement is the final step before the first operational squadron of the U.S. Air Force's next generation of aircraft comes to Utah," Hatch said. "The review process for the delivery of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter was extensive, and the world class facilities and wonderful personnel at Hill Air Force and throughout our state make this the right choice for our state and our country."

Sen. Lee, who serves on the Senate Armed Services Committee, said, "Given the outstanding facilities at Hill AFB, the proximity to the Ogden Air Logistics Complex and the Utah Test and Training Range, and the incredible support that the Air Force enjoys from the Northern Utah community, this decision is a logical choice. The Air Force has a unique relationship with the state of Utah that cannot be replicated anywhere else in the country, and I am excited to see that this relationship will continue to grow well into the future."

[NRao]

SA Premier opens new BAE F-35 facility

South Australia Premier Jay Weatherill has officially opened BAE Systems Australia’s new $10m titanium machining facility at Edinburgh Parks, South Australia, which the company will use in the fabrication of F-35 vertical tail components.

The new facilities feature a Starrag BTP5000 titanium milling machine, which BAE says is the only example of its type in the Southern Hemisphere. The Swiss-made machine weighs 200 tonnes, was shipped to Edinburgh Park in 23 containers, and took six months to install.

“This project is underpinned by BAE Systems’ participation in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter supply chain over the next 20 years. Our involvement in supplying parts for the next generation strike fighter provided the catalyst to invest in expanding our advanced manufacturing capability,” BAE’s Systems chief executive David Allott said.

BAE says the investment will allow it to pursue growth opportunities. ”Having an expanded machining capability and increased production capacity, together with a highly skilled and experienced workforce, will help to secure new opportunities in aviation or commercial industries as well as future defence projects,” Allott said.

The titanium machining facility has been installed as part of collaborative agreement with the State Government and BAE sub-contractor, Rosebank Engineering, with Rosebank investing in a separate advanced metals finishing facility due to be opened in Wingfield early next year.

“Bringing together BAE Systems and Rosebank to fill a niche capability in advanced manufacturing will deliver long-term benefits for South Australians,” Premier Weatherill said.

[Cosmo_R]

Pentagon Focused on Weapons, Data Fusion as F-35 Nears Combat Use

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2013/12/ ... er.html?hp

[NRao]

Dec 5, 2013 :: New high-tech machining operation for JSF parts unveiled

BAE Systems has opened a new $8 million machining facility at Edinburgh Parks, which the company says will create parts for the Joint Strike Fighter program’s supply chain for the next two decades.

The ABC reports that the new, high-tech Starrag BTP5000 machining operation has been called the only of its type in the southern hemisphere. Machine tool company Starrag Group is headquartered in Switzerland.

The installation came about through collaboration between the South Australian government, Rosebank Engineering and BAE. It took six months to build at the site, weighs 200 tonnes and took up 23 shipping containers when being transported. It will make various tail parts.

"Bringing together BAE Systems and Rosebank to fill a niche capability in advanced manufacturing will deliver long-term benefits for South Australians," said SA premier Jay Weatherill.

David Allott, CEO of BAE, said that the project was geared towards the company’s participation in the JSF F-35 project for the next 20 years.

"I am confident that our investment will provide opportunities to grow our manufacturing business in coming years,” the ABC reports him as saying.

"Having an expanded machining capability and increased production capacity, together with a highly skilled and experienced workforce, will help to secure new opportunities in aviation or commercial industries as well as future defence projects."

The BTP Series is equipped with five-axis simultaneous machining, and was, according to Starrag, developed for the “machining of particularly long,complex titanium components for the aerospace industry".

[NRao]

South Korea unlikely to finalize Lockheed F-35 order until summer '14

[NRao]

F-35, Osprey Enhanced by Japan’s National Security Strategy

Japan’s new defense and national security documents suggest Tokyo will focus much of its procurement efforts on securing the most advanced U.S. defense technologies.

All of this augurs well for U.S. defense companies, who are likely to be shipping significant quantities of their products to Japan in the coming years. In reviewing a larger defense document also released this week, DOD Buzz reports that “Under the plan, Japan would spend $240 billion over the next five years on new equipment for the military to include 17 MV-22 Ospreys, 28 F-35 fighters, three unarmed Global Hawk drones and 52 amphibious troop carriers to shore up the offensive capability of its Self-Defense Forces.”

[NRao]

F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Testing Program Ramps up at Nellis AFB

[NRao]

Ouch, this hurts.

Lockheed Works Toward 4th-Gen Prices for F-35

The cost of a fully equipped F-35A joint strike fighter will drop to $85 million by 2019, according to a top Lockheed official, as long as the program continues to increase quantities.

That figure, calculated at $75 million in 2013 dollars, includes engines and all weapon systems for the conventional-takeoff-and-landing fifth-generation fighter, said Lorraine Martin, the head of Lockheed’s F-35 program, during a Dec. 13 press briefing.

The briefing was held at Lockheed’s F-35 production facilities in Fort Worth, Texas, as part of a ceremony celebrating the rollout of the 100th joint strike fighter. Travel and accommodations were paid for by the company.

In the most recently negotiated batch of aircraft, low-rate initial production lot 7 (LRIP-7), an engine-less F-35A came in around $98 million. If Lockheed can meet this cost goal, it would make the fifth-generation fighter competitively priced with fourth-generation aircraft such as the F-16 and F/A-18, a major boost for a program that has been criticized for being cost-prohibitive.

Costs for the jump-jet F-35B and aircraft carrier F-35C variants are less clear, due in part to the small number produced so far. The F-35A is by far the most popular model and has higher quantities, giving company officials a clearer sense of per-unit costs.

Achieving those cost reductions will require an increase in quantities, and while Martin expects orders to increase, she emphasized that quantity is quickly becoming the key price driver for the program.

“Quantity matters. Quantity absolutely matters right now on this program,” Martin said. “The [production] learning curve is still important, and it’s still enabling us to get work content off the line that’s not as efficient as it could be, but you start to learn that stuff. The silly stuff you learn fast and, as you go forward, you start to really refine how you produce the aircraft. Then the big driver to bring cost out is quantity.

“We’re at the point where we need both of them, and soon, quantity will be the biggest driver for us,” Martin continued. “If you buy more, they will be cheaper. There just is no doubt.

“We have been flat for four years, around 30 [to] 36 aircraft. If it doesn’t increase, it will dampen out our ability to get costs out.”

Whether there is an increase in the number of planes ordered for LRIP-8 will depend on the US budget situation. That lot is being negotiated with the Pentagon, and Martin said her company submitted pricing options for “variable quantities” of planes to give the Defense Department flexibility based on the budget situation.

Rising quantities and lowering costs don’t just benefit DoD and its partner nations. As Lockheed gets costs under control, Martin said the company hopes profit margins will increase.

“You would expect, for any aircraft program, you know how to do it better [as time goes on] and you’re hoping you’re able to do that in a predictable way, both for the government and for your own profit margins,” Martin said. “The program at the beginning was very challenged, so our margins have not been what you would want them to be going forward.

“My job is to ensure I know what it costs to build the aircraft, that what it costs to build an aircraft is reasonable and attractive to our customers, and that I can get a reasonable profit on top of that. And as I get that equation put together, I think the margins will come up.”

Looking forward to 2014, Martin expects to see increased international orders for the plane, including the rollout of the first F-35 from Italy’s final assembly and check-out (FACO) facility toward the end of 2014.

There are no plans to open FACOs outside of the two planned locations in Italy and Japan, according to Martin, who added that the Japanese FACO should be completed on schedule. She confirmed that a FACO component is not part of the F-35 deal being negotiated between the US and South Korea.

[NRao]

F-35 JSF Sensor Testing completed

Northrop Grumman Corporation has successfully participated in the 2011 Northern Edge joint military exercise by demonstrating key F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) sensor capabilities in a demanding operational environment.

The AN/APG-81 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar and AN/AAQ-37 Distributed Aperture System (DAS) were mounted aboard Northrop Grumman's BAC1-11 test aircraft during the exercise. The radar was tested featuring Block 3 and developmental software, and the DAS was tested with JSF Block 2 delivery software.

"The rigorous testing of both sensors during this exercise serves as a significant risk reduction step for the JSF program," said Commander Erik Etz, Deputy Mission Systems Integrated Product Team lead for the JSF Program Office. "By putting our systems in this operationally rigorous environment, we have demonstrated key warfighting capabilities well in advance of its scheduled operational testing."

Participating in the Northern Edge exercise for the second time, the AN/APG-81 radar demonstrated robust electronic protection, electronic attack, passive, maritime and experimental modes, and data-linked air and surface tracks to improve legacy fighter situational awareness. The AN/AAQ-37 DAS displayed its spherical situational awareness and target tracking capabilities during its operational environment debut at Northern Edge this year.

"The ability that DAS provides to track multiple aircraft in every direction simultaneously is something that has never been seen in an air combat environment before," said Chuck Brinkman, sector vice president and general manager of Northrop Grumman's Targeting Systems Division.

The United States Pacific Command, the Alaskan Command and the Joint Electromagnetic Preparedness for Advanced Combat organizations supervised the biennial exercise, which involved over 6,000 airmen, sailors and Marines. As the United States' largest and most complex airborne electronic warfare environment, this exercise encompasses mass air combat scenarios conducted across diverse platforms to test their effectiveness within challenging environments.

Northrop Grumman is a leading global security company providing innovative systems, products and solutions in aerospace, electronics, information systems, and technical services to government and commercial customers worldwide.

[NRao]

Ankara-based Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. (TAI) has delivered to Northrop Grumman its first composite F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) center fuselage

[NRao]

First NL (Dutch) Pilot to fly F-35

[NRao]

Norway says F-35 jet on track; keeping eye on costs



Why The US Should Sell Advanced Fighters to Taiwan

Singapore and the F-35B Joint Strike Fighter

Indications are that Singapore may go ahead with the purchase of the JSF. That would be a game-changer for its operational capabilities.

[NRao]

Open general export licence (exports in support of joint strike fighter: F-35 Lightning II)

This open general export licence (OGEL) allows the export or transfer of goods, software or technology for the Joint Strike Fighter (F-35 Lightning II) (JSF) Programme from the UK to any of the destinations or countries listed in this licence. This includes re-exporting goods, software or technology to and from permitted destinations, even if they have been incorporated into other products.

This OGEL came into force on 6 January 2014.

OPEN GENERAL EXPORT LICENCE Exports in Support of Joint Strike Fighter

[TSJones]

Honeywell being investigated for using chinese parts for the f-35.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/exclusive ... 05418.html

[NRao]

I read that the Pentagon has given them a waiver.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/ ... VA20140103

[NRao]

Some interesting JSF related stories:


Evolution of the Boeing design for JAST culminating in the X-32




Mcdonnell Douglass + British Aerospace (+ Northrup) also had a proposal, which was not selected (due to which MD ceased to exist). Here is that proposed craft:


Joint Advanced Strike Technology (JAST) proposal from McDonnell Douglas, Northrop Grumman and British Aerospace



The same plane with canards



Wind tunnel model of an early JAST concept developed by McDonnell Douglas and British Aerospace with separate vertical and horizontal tails

And then the X-36:

[Austin]

AW&ST:Bill Sweetman

Opinion: No Time For Inaccuracy On JSF Costs

[Mihir]

When a Rand Corp. report concluded in December that the Joint Strike Fighter program would cost more than the total of three separate ones, Lockheed Martin responded sharply, accusing the authors of overstating the figures by a factor of two. But the company could not provide a source for its own numbers (AW&ST Jan. 6, p. 18).

So... nothing new.

[Viv S]

AW&ST:Bill Sweetman

Opinion: No Time For Inaccuracy On JSF Costs

RAND's claim was that three separate fighter programs would have costed less than a single joint program. And the evidence presented to support that was a 'historical' record of joint programs.

The fact that there is no historical precedent to the JSF program apparently doesn't bother RAND overmuch, which goes on to insist, quite ridiculously, that the F-111 and A-10 were joint programs as well, and therefore be used for data extrapolation.

And since its a piece critical of the F-35, Mr Sweetman has naturally chosen to defend the sanctity of the RAND report.

[TSJones]

It sure is a big tamasha over the F-35 program. The problem is that the program is having to create original technology and that ain't cheap. That are producing a plane that has a RS of a metal golf ball (vs. the F-22 that has a RS of a metal marble), that will pierce enemy territory, coordinate with other entities in real time, deliver a suite of weapons that will stay buttoned up inside the plane until needed and has the dog fighting ability of an F-16 or an F-18C Hornet. And they want a whole lot of these planes. Plus they want a Air Force version, a Marine version, and a naval version.

Alas, that is a lot to ask of a poor, stubby air craft.

[NRao]

At this point in time, why is the price of the JSF an issue? -6 onwards LM is liable for costs above what has been agreed to and has to refund 50% of anything saved. So too with the engines vendor.

So, what does it matter if the cost is 2x or 10x?

?????? Am I missing something from this Rand report?

[Viv S]

At this point in time, why is the price of the JSF an issue? -6 onwards LM is liable for costs above what has been agreed to and has to refund 50% of anything saved. So too with the engines vendor.

So, what does it matter if the cost is 2x or 10x?

?????? Am I missing something from this Rand report?

I believe they're referring to the program cost i.e. development included. The suggestion is that future developments such as the proposed 6th generation fighter should not necessarily be a joint program.

[Mihir]

At this point in time, why is the price of the JSF an issue? -6 onwards LM is liable for costs above what has been agreed to and has to refund 50% of anything saved. So too with the engines vendor.

So, what does it matter if the cost is 2x or 10x?

?????? Am I missing something from this Rand report?

Some of us may have trouble believing that LM will accept losses willingly. We may have even more trouble believing that the DoD will let Lockheed risk possible bankruptcy/dissolution, effectively giving Boeing a monopoly on the US fighter market.

Someone is going to pay for the cost overruns. My bet is that it won't be Lockheed.

[Philip]

"A role too far"? Trying to turn the JSF into Gandalf's magic staff that can sort out orcs,wargs,uruk-hai,corsairs,oliphants,nazgul ,balrogs,witch kings as well as wizards gone over to the dark side,is best left to the celluloid screen.Unfortunately,the JSF has to battle in the real world,where its hot ass ,visible vortexes,overheating weapons bay,vibration when weapons bay doors are open,helmet still not perfected,-some of these are new problems,stick to it like an unwelcome leech.Here are some woes admittedly 2-3 years old, and one is sure that many have been rectified by now,but it shows how difficult the project has been.In fact the three versions have considerable differences.The latest AWST however,details posted elsewhere,shows that problems still remain and the going is getting tougher as the project progresses.These are just the technical problems,not costs,another matter altogether.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx? ... 4d20afe997

Since flight testing started to pick up speed in June 2010, 725 engineering change requests have been initiated, of which 148 are ready to incorporate. On average, it takes 18-24 months between the identification of a change and its implementation in production. JSF production orders started three to four years earlier than other fighters, and even under the current plan, close to 200 aircraft will be on order by the halfway point in flight testing.

Many of the issues described by the QLR have been reported, but not in detail. Others have been played down by the program. The following are four of the "big five" issues that have already surfaced. (The fifth is classified, but dollars to doughnuts it has something to do with stealth.)

We knew that the helmet-mounted display was in trouble. A simpler alternate HMD was ordered from BAE Systems in September, but it does not meet the requirement for "through the airplane" zero-light visibility provided by the electro-optical distributed aperture system. (Yes, that EO-DAS, that makes maneuvering irrelevant.)

Today, the killer problem with EO-DAS is latency: the image in the helmet lags 130 milliseconds behind sightline movement where the spec is under 40 ms. (So the video is where the pilot's head was pointed an eighth of a second ago.) That can't be fixed without changing the JSF's integrated core processor - the jet's central brain - and the EO-DAS sensors. Even the backup helmet faces buffet and latency issues, simply for symbology.

The underwing fuel dump system on the JSF doesn't get fuel clear of the aircraft surfaces, so that fuel accumulates in the flaperon and may get into the integrated power package (IPP) exhaust. That creates a fire hazard, particularly on a ship deck after landing. Fuel dumping has been banned except in an emergency. Two unsuccessful modifications have been tried on the F-35B.

The IPP - the cause of a grounding this summer, after a "catastrophic failure" caused IPP parts to puncture a fuel tank - is turning out to be unreliable. It's supposed to last 2,200 hours, but so far in the flight test program, 16 IPPs have been removed and replaced - a process that takes two days of 24-hour work.

The arrester hook issue has been reported. In the first round of tests, the hook failed to catch the wire once. The QLR notes that tests of a minimal modification - a reprofiled hook with different damper settings - set for April "represent only the initial stages leading into full carrier suitability demonstrations."

Studies are already underway of changing the hook's location - the basic problem is that the designers put the hook closer behind the main landing gear than that of any current or recent Navy aircraft, even the tailless X-47B - but that will have "major, direct primary and secondary structural impacts".

The QLR report predicts more problems, based on experience so far, historical data, and the collapse of the "test is validation" orthodoxy.

F-35 flight tests have not gone beyond 20 degrees angle of attack, and higher-than-predicted buffet loads have been experienced. So far, severity has been similar to current aircraft but it is experienced over a large part of the envelope. Exploration of the high-AoA envelope does not start until the fall of 2012 and full results will not be available until 2014. Excess buffet can accelerate airframe fatigue, and induces jitter in the HMD.

One editorial observation, not from the report: aerodynamic issues are a challenge on a stealth aircraft because some of the standard fixes - fences, strakes and vortex trippers, for instance - can't be used.

Other risks are individually less severe but cumulatively could result in substantial modifications. They include thermal issues - like the current speed restriction - and an untested lightning protection system, which at least until late 2012 means that the aircraft is not allowed within 25 nm of predicted lightning. (That is expected to cancel 25-50% of training events at Eglin AFB.) Weight margins for all versions are paper-thin.

The full QLR is densely packed and makes fascinating reading. Personal view? What keeps going through my mind is Gus McCrae from Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove, after one of the Hat Creek outfit has ridden into a nest of water moccasins:

"Eight sets of bites, not countin' the legs. Ain't no point in countin' the legs."

[Anthony Hines]

JSF is flying and having issues. Whereas Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft per IAF.

[NRao]

"A role too far"? Trying to turn the JSF into Gandalf's magic staff that can sort out orcs,wargs,uruk-hai,corsairs,oliphants,nazgul ,balrogs,witch kings as well as wizards gone over to the dark side,is best left to the celluloid screen.Unfortunately,the JSF has to battle in the real world,where its hot ass ,visible vortexes,overheating weapons bay,vibration when weapons bay doors are open,helmet still not perfected,-some of these are new problems,stick to it like an unwelcome leech.Here are some woes admittedly 2-3 years old, and one is sure that many have been rectified by now,but it shows how difficult the project has been.In fact the three versions have considerable differences.The latest AWST however,details posted elsewhere,shows that problems still remain and the going is getting tougher as the project progresses.These are just the technical problems,not costs,another matter altogether.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx? ... 4d20afe997

Thanks Philip Bhai.

Glad you stuck to a 2011 article/blog and did not go to 1900 to dig up.

Whew, Bill saves the day again.

[NRao]

JSF is flying and having issues. Whereas Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft per IAF.

The Americans have no excuse - the JSF is their second effort.

China has no excuse, they stole and the result is there for us to see.

The Russians - heck, this is their first try at a 5th Gen machine and they have yet to resolve issues like how to translate theory into practice and production issues, etc. Need time. And need funds.

[Viv S]

"A role too far"? Trying to turn the JSF into Gandalf's magic staff that can sort out orcs,wargs,uruk-hai,corsairs,oliphants,nazgul ,balrogs,witch kings as well as wizards gone over to the dark side,is best left to the celluloid screen.Unfortunately,the JSF has to battle in the real world,where its hot ass ,visible vortexes,overheating weapons bay,vibration when weapons bay doors are open,helmet still not perfected,-some of these are new problems,stick to it like an unwelcome leech.Here are some woes admittedly 2-3 years old, and one is sure that many have been rectified by now,but it shows how difficult the project has been.In fact the three versions have considerable differences.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx? ... 4d20afe997

Really? An article from 2011?!

Lets take those claims systematically, shall we -

HMDS -

- BAE alternate helmet cancelled
- Jitter problem resolved (barring some further tests)
- Latency problem did not come up on DAS integration

F-35 Pilots Will Begin Flying Improved 'Gen 3' Helmet

Fuel Dump Subsystem -

- Fix implemented and problem resolved in 2012 itself

Integrated Power Package -

- Fix implemented in 2012

Tailhook Problem -

- New tailhook, designed, integrated and currently being tested. (Relevant only to the USN and USMC.)

Navy’s F-35 Starts New Tailhook Tests

High Angle of Attack testing -

- Completed high AoA testing in 2013
- Max AoA of 50 degrees achieved

The latest AWST however,details posted elsewhere,shows that problems still remain and the going is getting tougher as the project progresses.These are just the technical problems,not costs,another matter altogether.

Honestly, the going is getting tougher only for avowed critics of the aircraft. Even Bill Sweetman has been reduced to pointless arguments viz. 'Super Hornet is (slightly) cheaper than the F-35A's cost at full production, so LM should be hauled up for claiming it would cost less than preceding fourth generation aircraft'.

[koti]

Quoting another recent article for sake of posterity.
I have no contribution or opinion on the discussion.
Link

[Viv S]

Quoting another recent article for sake of posterity.
I have no contribution or opinion on the discussion.
Link

That one's a valid assessment. The USMC's is set to field the F-35 next year, before the software has reached an acceptable level of reliability. Unlike the USN and USAF, the Marines haven't inducted any new aircraft for two decades now. Their F-18s are in fairly bad shape being at the extreme end of their (extended) airframe life. Waiting for the F-35 to mature isn't an option for them - they'll use it for training and doctrine evolution if nothing else.

However, none of this has a bearing on the F-35 program as a whole. The F-35A isn't scheduled for IOC until 2016-17. Software bugs were bound to exist and will get ironed out in the interim. And the USMC's F-35B too will be updated with software fixes as they arrive.

[Philip]

Well,how about some 2014 news then? AWST Jan 13th.Overheating bomb bay above acceptable levels in certain conditions,excessive vibration when bay doors are open,IHMD advanced version required (not current version) for close in combat for off-boresight use with AMRAAM/AIM-9X,plus glitches in AMRAAM data link communicating with the aircraft for targeting updates.The Block 4 definitive version will only be available by 2022.Anyway,even by the revised official figures there will be quite a few years of waiting for the world's most expensive mil. aircraft project to arrive!

[Viv S]

Well,how about some 2014 news then? AWST Jan 13th.Overheating bomb bay above acceptable levels in certain conditions,excessive vibration when bay doors are open,IHMD advanced version required (not current version) for close in combat for off-boresight use with AMRAAM/AIM-9X,plus glitches in AMRAAM data link communicating with the aircraft for targeting updates.

Overheating Bomb Bay

Engineers are continuing to refine data on potential thermal issues in the weapons bay as it carries ordnance. “The data that we have gotten so far show that the bay can get hot,” Wagner says. “But it is only in specific parts of the flight envelope on specific days where we start seeing temperatures that are high enough that cause us concern.”

Vibration

Although with the bay doors open, the F-35 generates vibration levels exceeding those against which the Amraam has been tested, “right now I don't have any indication this is an aircraft problem,” Wagner says. “Because the bay doors are open for only a very limited amount of time, . . . that short duration is significant, but it is not something that I am too worried about.”

Wagner says the thermal and vibration analysis should be complete in the next 15 months, in line with wrapping up testing for the USMC IOC.

Gen 2 Helmet not operational

F-35 test pilots will begin flying this year with a third-generation helmet mounted display system (HMDS) that incorporates modifications to the earlier-generation display system...The fixes the fighter program developed for the “Gen 3” helmet system persuaded the Pentagon’s F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO) to stop funding an alternate helmet-mounted display. (link)

The Block 4 definitive version will only be available by 2022.Anyway,even by the revised official figures there will be quite a few years of waiting for the world's most expensive mil. aircraft project to arrive!

Full combat capability will be achieved with the Block 3F (2017) not the Block 4. Even the Block 2B (2015) will be able to perform the vast majority of air to air and air to ground missions.

Also, 'definitive version' is a meaningless phrase as far as its combat efficacy goes. I could for example also say that the Rafale's 'definitive version' is the F3R. When will it come into effect? Around 2018. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be combat capable upto that date.

[Philip]

2017? Let's wait and see,please study the entire list of development glitches,posted ad nauseum, that need to be rectified before it can attain FOC.The thermal and vibration tests will take 15 months for the USMC version's IOC.Offiical figures for the USN's IOC is 2019/19,USAF late 2016.FOC requires principally the layers of software to be fully developed before the aircraft is fully combat capable with all its much touted capabilty.That is going to take a few more years after IOC.That too from a programme that is going to cost $1.5 trillion (Rand),$982B (LM).The JSF is "on track to exceed the life-cycle costs of 3 separate fighter programmes".The US might become the only nation to field it in significant number-as much as they can afford,because it will become too costly to acquire,operate and maintain.A pity for the US's allies.They have no alternative if they want a stealth bird.Perhaps the Euro nations should develop more "stealthy" version of their Eurocanards as affordable alternatives.

That is also a lesson to be studied by our designers and IAF brass too. Perhaps if the LCA had less of the mini-M-2000 multi-role DNA in it,it could've been brought out faster into service,first as a basic MIG-21 replacement,its original goal.

[Viv S]

2017? Let's wait and see,please study the entire list of development glitches,posted ad nauseum, that need to be rectified before it can attain FOC.That too from a programme that is going to cost $1.5 trillion (Rand),$982B (LM).

The USAF's IOC is in 2016. Block 3F comes online in 2017. FOC probably by 2018.

There isn't an aircraft program in the world that hasn't had to face 'glitches'. All the major development issues on the F-35, have already been addressed and results posted here ad nauseam.

As far as the $1.5 trillion cost goes - that's the lifecycle cost of 2500 aircraft over 55 years. Given the scale its bound to be high. Its 20 times larger than India's Rafale purchase, which will cost us $60 billion+ over the latter's life-cycle.

The JSF is "on track to exceed the life-cycle costs of 3 separate fighter programmes".

So says RAND with rather flimsy evidence (F-111, A-10 history) presented in support.

The US might become the only nation to field it -as much as they can afford,because it will become too costly to acquire,operate and maintain.A pity for the US's allies.THye have no alternative if they want a stealth bird.Perhaps the Euro nations should develop more "stealthy" version of their Eurocanards as alternatives.

The F-35 cost is already comparable to the Eurocanards, and will continue to fall especially post-2020. A 'stealthy' version of the Eurocanards is total non-starter.

That is also a lesson to be studied by our designers and IAF brass too. Perhaps if the LCA had less of the mini-M-2000 multi-role DNA in it,it could've been brought out faster into service,first as a basic MIG-21 replacement,its original goal.

It took 20 years to develop which is in the same range as the Eurocanards.

[NRao]

Jan 15, 2014 :: F-35 Weapons Tests in 2014 Focus On Amraam

With weapons testing becoming a more regular event for the F-35 program, developers are looking ahead to a fast pace of trials this year to prepare for the first operational use of the stealthy, single-engine fighter by the U.S. Marine Corps in 2015.

Delivering weapons is often described as the “business end” of a fighter's job, and the Marines are planning to declare initial operational capability (IOC) for the F-35B using the aircraft's 2B software release as early as July 2015, and no later than December 2015, the service hopes. Though limited to use of three weapons—the 1,000-lb. GBU-32 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM), GBU-12 500-lb. Laser-Guided Bomb and Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (Amraam) AIM-120 series—the F-35B will surpass the current capability of the AV-8B Harrier jump jet and F/A-18C twin-engine Hornets, says Lt. Gen. Robert Schmidle, commandant for Marine Corps aviation.