Bharat Rakshak

Posted: **12 Apr 2012 17:30**

nvishal wrote:The instability in the regions of balochistan and north-west has almost no bearing on the stability of punjab and sindh.

I would request you to ignore those regions and concentrate on the region east of the durrand line. The real leaders(elite) of pakistan do not live in the mountains of wazaristan or balochistan.

Infighting does not necessarily mean dissolution. It means that their attention will be distracted away from india. That's it.

The balochis and the pashtuns cannot overpower punjab and sindh because they do not have the firepower.

nvishal, in my post, I did not refer to or imply anything about instability in Balochistan or KP., though these regions are also to the east of the Durand Line. Punjab & Sind have their own woes both within and between, and do not need to be inspired by Balochistan or KP. Ethno-linguistic, religious, sectarian, economic, provincial, sub-nationalist differences will play their part in the destruction of Pakistan along with a host of other issues. Like, when an accident happens, there are almost always mutiple causes or failures. But, I am not even referring to them being the major cause for the 'dissolution' of Pakistan.

The US and china has to conclude that the elite has become a liability(ie, the elites loss of control over jihadi foreign policy in xinjiang and the west) for it to be able to distribute overwhelming firepower to the balochis and the pashtuns to go against the pakistani state.

There are a couple of issues here, in the highlighted part. We do not know much about the Chinese thinking on Pakistan. But, if the US has not yet come to that conclusion, then that country is already doomed. If the US believes that the Pakistani elites are somehow non-jihadis, they must be the dumbest in the world. Pakistan thrives by creating crises or taking advantage of them. Again, the US & China, by themselves are not going to be able to dismantle Pakistan without India's significant contribution. Pakistan has to do much more damage before such a decision is taken.

Another issue is that dissolution (or whatever it is or whatever it implies) will not happen because some Balochis or Pashtuns or Punjabis revolt against the State (whatever the term 'State' means in Pakistani context). Nor, mere supply of arms and ammunition would help such a cause. It would be a combination of things. The aftermath of the 1971 election was not the real cause for secession of East Pakistan. The rot was deep, long and multi-faceted. Of course, the East Pakistan situation cannot be a direct analogy for a variety of reasons for present day Pakistan but certain common conditions prevail.

Posted: **12 Apr 2012 17:48**

surinder wrote:
9/11 put the TSP'ians in a quandry. I had thought that this was the end. I think they themselves thought that end was near and the wrath of Amir Khan was going to be bad. But they found their footings (and the Emir lost its own). Finally, they could calibrate well again.

This is exactly what mystifies me. At the very least, whether or not TSP pigLeT terror against India was part of post 9/11 so called GWOT or not, the very fact that TSP was made to confront its own evil made optimistic that TSP would be brought to justice. But that TSP has managed to wriggle out and we have the pre 9/11 India TSP equal equal is shocking to me at least. From India's POV, who is to blame, India, US, or is TSP such a wily enemy to contend with?

Posted: **12 Apr 2012 18:09**

Thats what all of thought for TSP, but TSP from their past relationship knew Khan leadership and had their guys- Omar Sheikh provide funding for the 9/11 attacks. Khan has been lavish with weaponry and money ever since.

Posted: **12 Apr 2012 18:27**

CRamS wrote: But that TSP has managed to wriggle out and we have the pre 9/11 India TSP equal equal is shocking to me at least. From India's POV, who is to blame, India, US, or is TSP such a wily enemy to contend with?

CRamS, you are looking at this surprising ability of TSP to survive from the jingoistic PoV that we discuss here frequently. But, GoI never had any plan for tackling TSP since day one. All TSP dictators and leaders seek Indian approval & legitimacy. We give them lifelines at crucial times. Of course, for whatever reason, the US is unwilling to recognize the Paki perfidy entirely even when its own men, women & children are killed and maimed. While conceding grudgingly admiration to the Pakistani diplomats and leaders for their repeated Houdini acts, I would blame India for allowing TSP to wriggle out.

Posted: **12 Apr 2012 18:56**

The Pak Gameplan in Afghanistan - G.Parthasarathy
Excerpts

As the Americans commence their drawdown of forces in Afghanistan, they are tying themselves in knots on their negotiations with the Taliban. Pakistan is demanding a high price for restoring transit facilities for American supplies to Afghanistan.

These include an end to nuclear sanctions, a public apology for the action in which 26 Pakistani soldiers were killed, and an end to drone strikes. In the meantime, the Taliban are showing no inclination to meet American conditions for talks.

Both the Pakistan military and their Taliban allies now appear to believe that with the Americans set to end combat operations by mid-2013, they would be able to seize control of southern Afghanistan soon. Relief has come for the Americans from an unexpected source. The Russian Foreign Minister, Sergei Lavrov, agreed to make the Ulyanovsk airbase available for American logistical supplies.

Pakistan could well be miscalculating on its perceived opportunities in Afghanistan, as the drawdown in American forces commences. But the international community and President Karzai will have to devise political strategies to expose Pakistan's pro-Pashtun pretensions.

Posted: **12 Apr 2012 19:35**

The bounty and crown - Muhammad Amir Rana

THE far right in Pakistan may finally have succeeded in grooming a leader to give public expression to their discourse.

It is essential for any ideological movement to have a charismatic leader as the face of the movement. Prof Hafiz Muhammad Saeed, chief of Jamaatud Dawa (JuD), is one such leader, who finds himself in the kind of limelight he may not mind. The US bounty on him has only added to his charisma that the far right has cherished.

This is not to say that the far right in Pakistan has been without leaders, but, despite its huge human resources, there have been two major constraints; first, the right to ownership, since the direction of ‘jihad’ had been external, and second, the complex internal dynamics.

Many Pakistani groups took part in the jihad in Kashmir and Afghanistan. Some, in fact, contributed much more than their Afghan or Kashmiri counterparts.

However, such contribution could not be highlighted because that would have contradicted Pakistan’s official stand that these were indigenous movements. And so Gulbuddin Hekmatyar of Hizb-i-Islami and Syed Ali Gillani of Jamaat-i-Islami were nurtured as the heroes in Afghanistan and Indian-held Kashmir respectively (yet they are no-match now for "The Hafiz"-e-Suar with his Amreeki Bounty). After the Taliban movement surfaced in Afghanistan in the mid-1990s, the group’s supreme leader Mullah Omar emerged as the new hero. Although Osama bin Laden, too, seemed to occupy that place for a while, the search of the Pakistani far right for an indigenous hero continued ( - "The Hafiz" is that Herrow).

The internal dynamics were even more complex in the last decade of the last millennium. The far right was fragmented (so it was difficult for unkil to excersise control - unkil likes singal window you see) along sectarian, political and personal agendas.

Although militant organisations were freely operating inside the country, major religious political parties, with whose patronage or affiliation the militants were functioning, were not ready to share with them the mainstream political leadership.

They strove to be the custodians of the far right and of the militant discourse emanating from Pakistan.

Maulana Fazlur Rehman, head of his own faction of the Jamiat Ulema-i-Islam or JUI-F, not only nurtured the Taliban but also launched a countrywide anti-US campaign in July 1999 to mount pressure against a possible strike in Afghanistan to target Osama bin Laden.

The Pakistani media even referred to him as ‘Osama bin Laden the second’( Guess now even 2nd Osama doesnt match up to "The Hafiz"-e-suar) .

After 9/11, the JUI-F was active from the platform of the Afghan Defence Council. The movement, later in the form of the Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal, eventually garnered electoral success in the 2002 general elections.

To become acceptable to the international community and enjoy the benefits of power, the maulana gradually detached himself from the violent expression of the far right and connected his party with the Deobandi political discourse.

Maulana Masood Azhar, head of the banned Jaish-i-Muhammad, was another contestant for the crown. An aura of a spiritual jihadi leader was built around his personality and his release from Indian captivity in exchange for passengers f a hijacked Indian plane in late 1999 boosted his image. But differences within Deobandi militant outfits in Pakistan and his alliance with the Sipah-i-Sahaba damaged his case.

A Pakistani militant outfit hobnobbing with sectarian organisations was a definite no-no until the late 1990s. The thinking went that any outfit fighting for a nationalist cause, mainly in Kashmir, could not commit a bigger sin than associate itself with violent sectarian groups in Pakistan.

Hafiz Saeed had been groomed well . He already had good academic and ideological credentials to and unquestioned loyalty to the state (Former, underwritten and stamped over by SaudiA for Unkil). He had served in different government institutions, including the Council of Islamic Ideology (CII), and also taught at the University of Engineering and Technology in Lahore.

Saeed had a post-graduate degree from a Saudi Arabian university, where he developed good ties with the clergy and the royals, which served him well.

Sheikh Abdul Aziz — a rich Saudi businessman — was co-founder of Markaz-i-Dawatul Irshad, established by Hafiz Saeed. This was the predecessor of JuD. Saeed’s background as a member of the Jamaat-i-Islami helped him organise his party in a structured manner.

Above all, he proved himself as hardcore anti-India on both the militant and political fronts. These were already the makings of an ideal leader of the far right.

Although it was JuD’s militant wing Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) that pioneered fidayeen strikes (In other words, pigLeTs are THE uncontested innovators in Paki IT) in Indian-held Kashmir, when militant factions in Pakistan turned against the state Hafiz Saeed declared that suicide attacks inside the country were prohibited by religion.

Many analysts suspect that JuD had links with Al Qaeda but it severed those because of its equation with Riyadh (and Unkil had always had Riyadh's balls between nutcrackers). The reason was that Saudi Arabia’s biggest terrorist challenge came from those who accused other Muslims of apostasy, and Pakistan was also facing the wrath of terrorist groups who had absorbed similar tendencies and developed a close association with Al Qaeda.

These groups included Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan and the so-called Punjabi Taliban militants.

When the Saudi government launched a programme in 2003 to engage religious scholars to build a response against extremist tendencies and terrorism, the impact on the Salafi clergy in Pakistan was immediately discernible.

JuD took it upon itself to condemn such thoughts among militant groups and the LeT distanced itself from all such groups and even spurned any cooperation with the Pakistani Taliban. This may help put in context recent media reports that JuD is playing a role in militants’ rehabilitation in Pakistan.

This defines the direction of all pro-state militant organisations (but they are still Non-state - mind joo) in Pakistan and signifies the far-right’s preference for change in the country through peaceful means, while justifying the use of force to protect regional interests.

Hafiz Saeed has successfully projected the notion and through his public stances pushed the state onto this path. As the centre right and liberals seem confused and directionless, the increasing strength of the far right will have internal and international implications.

In addition to his credentials, Hafiz Saeed seems to be pursuing an agenda that resonates with his constituency. The US bounty will only add to his allure for the far right. (which is the reason it was placed)

The writer is editor of the quarterly research journal Conflict and Peace Studies.

Blease to carefully observe the projection happenning over Hafiz-e-Suar's Persona in this farticle.
All the major Galacticos of the Paki nonuniformed Jihadi spectrum are compared here ... with the one and only "The Hafiz"-e-Suar .

I think my old prediction has some chance afterall

.

Lilo wrote:
Bounty on Hafiz certainly isn't to please India.
After a long soch...

I think the US wants to anoint Hafiz-e-suar as the preeminent amir in afpak and this bounty helps by suddenly giving him an "anti-american" halo rivalling mullahO and Zawahiri.

Hafiz-e-suar will be the ultimate guarenteer of amrikhan interests from the nonuniformed jihadi spectrum in post 2014 afpak.

ofcourse, i have nothing but my instinct to back this up .

Looks like Raymond Davis and his ilk were successfull in establishing direct contacts with future Amir of Non-uniformed Jihadis inspite of the protestations from the Uniformed Jihadi's. Further does it mean that uniformed Jihadi's will be gradually shunted out from the command hierarchy and non-uniformed will directly report to the Culinary Institute ?

Posted: **12 Apr 2012 20:24**

Why do Paki elite need an overt stance of "deradicalization" while maintaining jihad against India?

There is only one scenario that will fit consistently with such contradictory pretensions. Many here are getting confused and giving benefit of doubt to the possibility that internally "things might be changing" for Paki elite attitude towards India. This is being helped along by both demands as well as false perceptions that significant drivers of Paki rashtryia thinking wants to go against USA.

But does Paki state elite really need a programme of "deradicalization" and are they being sincere? We have to understand the nuances between the lines of Paki talk. The elite, TSPA and feudals are increasingly feeling isolated and losing control over their population. Pure military subjugation is feasible option to control a population - but that needs a firm control over a sustainable economy by the military leadership. When the economy fails to perform, most military based control mechanisms fail. In a religiously totalitarian society - it leads to replacement of military leaders but the theologians manage to provide the framework of continuity.

The sense of loss of control by TSPA/feudals is leading to sense of loss of control over the "radicals" internally. The demand for radicalization is actually a turn of phrase that says - we do not want the power struggle within the radicals to turn against us in seeking to replace us at top. So yes, onlee in this sense the paki elite want "deradicalization" - deradicalization of those radicals who might seek to replace the elite in power.

However the real motivation behind creating the radicals remains - and that is the overthrow of or substantial territorial gain at the cost of India. Hence Hafeez Saeed is the ideal icon to be backed up by the state.

Hafeez is backed by the Saudi theological and business networks. The KSA ruling circles have been trying to put a leash on the underlying Saudi networks that sponsor jihad abroad, not because they want jihad to be stopped but - the primary reason being the complex dynamics of the reality of the Arab spring, where the rulers are now shaky about the long term consequences of allowing theologians free reign on their own stability in power.

The US bounty is part of the general effort at strengthening the hand of the Saudi royalty, while at the same time trying to strengthen the hand of the Paki ruling regime. This gives greater control over Hafeez and his network - to the respective ruling circles of KSA and Pak, a bargaining chip which the rulers can use on Hafeez pretending to protect him from USA.

The US effort is aimed at stabilizing the existing KSA and Paki ruling regimes, which implies that Americans are already preparing for a stage when the currently ruling interests may lose control, or split opportunistically to put up new factions claiming control replacing the existing ones.

Hafeez in that case may also serve the role of Khomeini as controlled by the USA in replacing Shah. In fact the more Pakis try to ingratiate themselves with Russians or the Chinese, the greater will be the chance of USA attempting a Khomeini II, even if USA has deep fingers in the pie of the Chinese communist party. For Hafeez therefore, a countermove is to appear to be the leader of anti-US and anti-India internally-peaceful externally jihadi faction in Pak. This is his bargaining chip. Both sides are pretending and upping the stakes for bargaining while all they want is compromise for mutual benefits.

Posted: **12 Apr 2012 20:31**

What does "Pakistan" think of the Indian line of pappi-jhappi/let's love Pakistan?

First of all let me deal with and dispense with the question that can lead to endless hair-splitting. Is Pakistan "one united entity" that has one policy and one thought? I don't believe it is but whatever the "correct" answer might be to that question, it makes it vastly easier to consider Pakistan as one united entity. The question can't be dismissed , but I just want to type some thoughts that can perhaps be applied by looking at Pakistan as a united whole with one thought process. In practice "United Pakistan" is the Pakistan that exists in the minds of the establishment/army/deep state for whom RajeshA has given the elegant name "Pakistanists"

Lifting from the usual generalizations "Pakistanis are taught to hate India" , and "Pakistanis see a call for negotiations as a sign of weakness" it would seem that India's "friendship" will be seen as weakness and viewed with great suspicion. If India had to do a Hudaibiya on Pakistan, this would be it. Not to be trusted and not to be taken too far. If this were the case, why would Pakis want to negotiate at all? If India was weak, the time to attack would be now. Not the time to negotiate. Perhaps they do not believe that India is weak, or maybe they think that it would be ideal to squeeze out what they want from a weak India if India were willing to hand it over at the negotiating table.

But, after having done this several times, it should have become obvious to even the most comatose Pakistanist that these "negotiations" are all about friendship, trade and begging Pakistan to stop terrorism. But Kashmir is not getting handed over on a plate. At some stage, if Pakistanis read India's action as weakness, they should go back to attacking. This is exactly what has been predicted on BRF time and time again. The attacks will come. They will come.

And come they did - even after the "watershed" 26/11. But even so India is still talking, but still not giving. What is Pakistan to make of that? If India is not getting cowed down by attacks/deaths, not giving up, and still talking it is odd. Whatever it might be I doubt if Pakistanists can see India's actions as well intentioned. They will be suspicious. But why do they talk? Talking certainly gives India a good name. Refusing to talk would probably give Pakistan a worse reputation that it has, and that might be one good reason why they repeatedly attend these chai biskoot sessions sparked by Indian love.

But what kind of signal are these talks sending to Pakistanis. Just a decade ago TV was not widespread in Pakistan and it is conceivable that a lot of info could be kept away from the mango Abdul. But that is no longer the case. A large proportion of Pakis are seeing these chai biskoot sessions. Judging from what I read of the Paki press, Pakis seem to be hearing their leaders talk of peace. they hear India talk of peace. But they are also told that India talks of peace but does not hand over Kashmir or water. To them the message clearly is that peace is one thing, but the dispute with India cannot be settled until India bends on all that the bious Baki Mussalmaans need.

Seen in this way, these talks can promise nothing. If this lovey-dovey stuff is to make any headway or have some meaning, then I believe we will have to look at the issue through yet another lens. I will leave my take on that to some other time.

Posted: **12 Apr 2012 21:14**

^^ NDTV ticker saying new Visa rules and number of cities visitable by Pakis in one visa expanded to 10

Posted: **12 Apr 2012 21:41**

Pakis are still humans. Humans will temper their behavior when faced with consequences. Reminded from time to time about what India can do to them, pakis will check themselves and question their own self-flattery. A beaten human will be less aggressive. In Telugu we say, grab the hair if you are up to it, if not fall at the feet.

Indians' problem is that they managed to dehumanize pakis/muslims. Hence we tend to only see two options--appeasement or outright annihilation. For me, brihaspati provided valuable insight into this phenomeno : DIE operate from a fear and loathing of Muslims that mango Indian does not share.

Posted: **12 Apr 2012 22:05**

shiv, paki outlook towards "hindu" India can be understood by extrapolating from nizami Hyderabad experience.

Pakis don't hate Indians in the conventional sense. They actually want good bhai-chara with two provisos: (1) Indians must take care of pakis' material and egotistical needs.(2) Indians must be at pakis' mercy which they will dispense most of the time but which they will replace with massively destructive fury at their own discretion. It adds up to a genteel slavery.

Formulations like "pakis hate India" are confusing as they are easily contradicted. Slaveowners love their slaves as a rule.

I believe this formulation doesn't need hair splitting about non-monolithic pakistan etc. Pakis becoming supposedly better informed about Indian niceness is also irrelevant in this light.

Posted: **12 Apr 2012 22:14**

I was thinking about the bounty on Hafeez. Before the bounty, if something were to happen to him there would have been no doubt that India was behind it. But after the bounty if anything were to happen to him, neither US nor India would be ruled out of involvement for decades - even if they were to come out with explicit statements speaking of involvement or not.

Which would mean that we should give protection to hafeez if we were tryly afraid of escalation by pakis OR if we dont fear escalation then we might as well take him out ?

Posted: **12 Apr 2012 23:43**

Manmohan's visit to Pakistan still open but Myanmar firmly on itinerary

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 00:24**

sum wrote:^^ NDTV ticker saying new Visa rules and number of cities visitable by Pakis in one visa expanded to 10

Of all CBMs this is the one I am most uncomfortable with. This people to people contact nonsense.

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 00:40**

India Puts Kashmir on Table
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 62228.html

NEW DELHI—India is willing to talk about the disputed territory of Kashmir with Pakistan as part of an effort to advance peace talks, India's top diplomat said, adding that Pakistan needs to take serious action against militants that use its soil to attack India.The comments by Indian Foreign Secretary Ranjan Mathai, in an interview with The Wall Street Journal on Wednesday, suggest that a recent thaw in relations between the two countries could lead to discussions on the key territorial issue, which has been off the table since 2007.Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari visited India on Sunday and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh accepted his invitation to make a first official trip to Pakistan, although he didn't commit to a time frame. The U.S. views better relations as essential to political stability in the region, including Afghanistan.
A deal over the Himalayan territory of Kashmir, split between India and Pakistan in 1948 and claimed in its entirety by both, is vital to a long-term peace deal between the two nations, which have fought three wars since independence from Britain in 1947.Pakistani officials have long demanded India start discussions on Kashmir, while India wants Pakistan to crack down on militants. Choreographing progress on these demands will likely be important for further progress in the detente.

As the talks develop, India would consider reopening a serious discussion on Kashmir, Mr. Mathai said. New Delhi, he added, "would be happy" to start talks toward a deal to keep Kashmir's borders as they are but allow greater trade and movement of people across the Line of Control, the de facto frontier that divides the territory. India and Pakistan were close to such an agreement in 2007. But the then-secret negotiations foundered as Pakistan's president at the time, Pervez Musharraf, became entangled in political troubles at home that led to his resignation the following year. "It was a very useful channel of discussions," Mr. Mathai said. "They made progress."Mr. Basit, the Pakistani spokesman, said he had no knowledge of the 2007 talks.New Delhi believes it is now "up to the Pakistanis to decide how to proceed" on peace talks, Mr. Mathai said. India, he added, is looking for "something solid" to announce before Prime Minister Singh visits Pakistan.

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 00:46**

http://www.compassdirect.org/english/co ... 00457.html
Pakistani Woman Accused of ‘Blasphemy’ Illegally Held in Jail
Authorities fail to file charge sheet against young mother of 6-month-old.

LAHORE, Pakistan, April 10 (CDN) — The mother of a 6-month-old girl has been wrongly jailed for more than a month, as Pakistani authorities have failed to file a charge sheet within the mandatory 14-day period against the young Christian woman falsely accused of “blaspheming” the prophet of Islam, her attorney said.
Shamim Bibi, 26, of village Chak No. 170/7R Colony, in the Fort Abbas area of Bahawalpur district, was charged under Section 295-C of Pakistan’s “blasphemy” statutes after neighbors accused her of uttering remarks against Muhammad. She was arrested on Feb. 28.Speaking ill of Muhammad in Pakistan is punishable by life imprisonment or death under Pakistan’s internationally condemned blasphemy laws.“Shamim has been implicated in a completely baseless case,” said her husband, Bashir Masih. “I was present with her at the time of the alleged incident … nothing of the sort happened. The Muslims cooked up a false story, though it’s still not clear who provoked them into leveling this accusation.”After visiting his wife in jail today, Bashir told Compass by phone that she was holding fast to her Christian faith and firmly believed that God would rescue her soon from the false charge.“She is alright otherwise, but she especially misses her daughter,” Masih said. “We are not sure when Shamim will be able to come back home, although our lawyer is quite hopeful of securing her release very soon.” One of the two witnesses named in the First Information Report (FIR), Abdul Qayyum, has already denied hearing anything from her that supports the charge.“The police just did not listen to our pleas and went ahead and registered a case against my innocent wife,” he said. “It’s been over a month now, but the police haven’t filed a charge sheet against her. Who will compensate for the agony that my wife and family are suffering for no fault of ours?”

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 02:31**

I would like to put down my thoughts on pakistan, Islam & Pakistaniat. Please move it to the appropriate thread, if it isn't relevant here.

1) Pakistan & Islam
2) Khilafat Movement & Pakistaniat
3) Appeasement will never work

1) Pakistan & Islam

Successive rulers in pakistan has given the impression that "pakistan will live and die for islam..." to its constituents and rest of the world. But, what pakistan really care for is, something which is
rightly called here as pakistaniat (i.e. we are not India)

Islam has been truly humiliated by Western Europe and America. Some notable examples are

a) Burn Koran day in USA
b) Mohammed Cartoon in Denmark
c) Minarets Ban in Switzerland
d) Face veil Ban in France
e) Draw Mohammed day in Facebook
f) French soldiers (non muslim) in mecca (1979)
g) Chinese destruction of mosques in xinjiang

But, they aren't interested in fostering sustainable jihad against these countries. Why?

Much worse they are co-ooperating with these countries for War on Terrorism against Islamic Repulic of Afghanistan.

How Ironic? Only morons with a single digit IQ will not be able to see this contradiction.

(for paklurkers) What is important for pakis? Islam or pakistan

2) Khilafat Movement & Pakistaniat

When Khilafat movement gained momentum, the British govt had a tough time containing it. The situation got extremely fragile when Khilafatists became part of the Non-Coperation movement (Lead by Mahatma Gandhi).

British employed Mohammad ali Jinnah (Muslim League) to split Indian muslims away from the movement. As a loyal slave, muslim jinnah & his party muslim league diluted the movement. By, faith muslims should not go against the Caliph. But who cares, that was precisely what they did.

Seeds of Pakistaniat were sown and reaped spectacular rewards which both jinnah (muslim league) and british did not anticipate. It has nothing to do with Islam.

To put it simply Muslims(Indian muslims) helping kafirs (British) to undermind muslims (Caliphate).

So, Quaid-e-azam has violated the fundamental tenets of Islam to create Islamic republic of Pakistan. Add to this his whisky swelling and pork eating habbits. So much for the cause of Islam...

3) Appeasement will never work

GOI's appeasement will never work w.r.t pakistan. The inventors of pakistaniat has put down a robust system, like manipulated education & propoganda to churn out pakis with pakistaniat imbibed.

The efforts of GOI may make the current crop of leaders go soft on India like (for eg. Benazir bhutto, Nawaz sharrif,musharraf at the end of their careers). The younger leaders will overthrow them for being soft on India/anti-pakistan. GOI has to do the same thing with the younger ones and the viscious cycle continues.

What pakis did successfully was to mesh Pakistaniat and islam together to project it as a Hindu Vs Muslim divide. Events of 1971 did not make them realise it.

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 02:43**

http://dawn.com/2012/04/12/in-fashion-saniya-maskatiya/

Sania Maskatiya: an unusual name for a young designer just as unusually successful in a very short period of time

Yeah, not enough Islamic I guess.

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 02:49**

Chahe koi isse GUBO kahe, Chahhe Koi isse LUFO Kahe, yeh Ghulami hai orr Ghulamiat se Gujjara Challa

PCNS agrees to restore Nato supply

ISLAMABAD: Parliamentary Committee on National Security’s (PCNS) recommendations for the reopening of Nato supply have been agreed by all the political parties in the committee, which would likely be presented in the parliament today, sources said.According to the recommendations, foreign military would not be given bases on Pakistani soil. complete withdrawl of drone attacks in tribal belt has been recommended.Foreign written agreements would also be tabled in the parliament with in three days. Foreign operatives would not be allowed to work in Pakistan, the recommendations added

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 02:53**

70 Percent are greener, holier and arabic now

KARACHI – The ongoing ‘feud’ between the Karachi Electric Supply Company (KESC) and Karachi Water and Sewerage Board (KW&SB) has resulted in acute water shortage to 70 percent population of the City and the Sindh government is just playing the role of silent spectator.According to details, the KW&SB had not paid the dues of KESC worth Rs20 billion since long. By becoming defaulter of such hefty amount to the KESC, the power utility has started conducting hours long loadshedding at major water supply pumping stations of the KW&SB.The KESC official said that the KWSB was not paying its electricity bills which left the company with no other option but to conduct loadshedding at Dhabeji Pumping Station.On the other hand, the KW&SB officials said that the organisation was a non-profitable organisation. They said the KESC administration was uncooperative towards the KW&SB. “The KESC has charged industrial commercial rates from the KW&SB despite the fact that KW&SB supplies water on non-commercial basis.”The water board claimed that the KESC has continuously suspended electric supply to Dhabeji pumping station which is a major source of water supply to the residents. KW&SB has failed to supply 3.10 billion gallons of water from Dhabeji pumping station to a major portion of the City because of KESC’s uncooperative attitude.Sources claimed that KWSB create so-called water shortage because legal and illegal water hydrants are plying as normally and these hydrants also received water supply from KWSB, despite different industrial zones are also received water supply from the organization as per quota.

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 04:30**

Parliament approves PCNS proposals on US ties

Here are the approved terms (the 14-point recommendations):

sovereignty of Pakistan shall not be compromised and relationship with the United States should be based on mutual respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of each other.

US footprint in Pakistan must be reviewed

an immediate cessation of drone attacks inside Pakistan

cessation of infiltration into Pakistani territory on any pretext including hot pursuit.

Pakistani territory including its air space shall not be used for transportation of arms and ammunition to the Nato forces in Afghanistan.

The recommendations also say that Pakistan’s nuclear program and assets including its safety and security cannot be compromised.

The US-India civil nuclear agreement has significantly altered strategic balance in the region and therefore Pakistan should seek from the US and others a similar treatment.The strategic position of Pakistan as well as India on the subject of FMCT (Fissile Material Cut off Treaty) must not be compromised and this principle be kept in view in negotiations on this matter.

Pakistan should seek an unconditional apology from the US for November 26, 2011 unprovoked Salala check post incident.

Those held responsible for Mohmand Agency attack should be brought to justice. Pakistan should be given assurances that such attacks or any other acts impinging on the country’s sovereignty will not recur.

Ministry of Defense and Pakistan Air Force PAF should formulate new flying rules for areas contiguous to the border.

no verbal agreement regarding national security shall be entered into by the Government or any department or organization with any foreign Government or authority.

The new guidelines call for an end to US drone strikes, but also stated that the supply lines should be reopened, albeit with a higher fee charged to US and Nato forces.

The government will now formulate policy based on the guidelines.

And while we are asking for the impossible, Pa'astan should be made the 51st state of the United States of America with all the 50 states guaranteeing......No wait, that's for another time their so-virginity is harmed.

And not to be outdone or outsmarted, Opposition seeks assurance for implementation of PCNS resolution adding the following conditions to the above:

the government should demand the US authorities that Dr Afia Siddiqui be repatriated to Pakistan so that she may complete her sentence in a Pakistani jail. He also demanded of the US government to bring Raymond Davis to justice as had been assured by the US Senator John Kerry during his visit to Pakistan.

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 04:40**

anupmisra wrote:Parliament approves PCNS proposals on US ties

Pakistani territory including its air space shall not be used for transportation of arms and ammunition to the Nato forces in Afghanistan.
[Ministry of Defense and Pakistan Air Force PAF should formulate new flying rules for areas contiguous to the border.

Poaqs are on record claiming that Kashmiri territory is not Pakistani area. Since India claims sovereignty over whole state of J&k as it was in 47 , USG can now officially request to use NA air space to cross into Afghanistan.

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 04:42**

partha wrote:
sum wrote:^^ NDTV ticker saying new Visa rules and number of cities visitable by Pakis in one visa expanded to 10
Of all CBMs this is the one I am most uncomfortable with. This people to people contact nonsense.

Rumors are that track-2 wallahs successfully sold the BS that "Pakis should be stakeholders in India's economy and stability" and want opportunities to invest and sell in India. This is a step towards that direction. As a next step, look for increased travel permits for artists, exhibitors, performers ityadi, followed by relaxing the investment rules.

I think India will become what lebanon was to the ME. A destination for wealthy Saudis to invest, booze, party. Then go back home and tell the abduls how much of detestable debauchery goes on there. Serves twin purposes of entertainment for elites and whipping boy for the abduls.

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 04:50**

I would also add: bring OBL back to life, restoring him to where he was found, repairing his house and apologizing to his family for the disturbance.

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 04:50**

Also they will send money to madrassah and islamic schools in India seep in wahabi and sharia.

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 06:03**

Anujan wrote:I would also add: bring OBL back to life, restoring him to where he was found, repairing his house and apologizing to his family for the disturbance.

Good one! I hope you don't mind me borrowing it

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 06:11**

Trade in Charade With Poqade

India for economic partnership with Pakistan

NEW DELHI: India and Pakistan said Thursday they hoped to transform trade ties and boost peace prospects at the opening of the largest Pakistani commercial fair ever staged on Indian soil.“There is no other option but economic partnership between Indian and Pakistan,” Indian Commerce Minister Anand Sharma said at the launch of the four-day exhibition in New Delhi, a sentiment echoed by Pakistani officials.“We have to recognise our true trade potential and leave our children with a legacy that ensures prosperity, harmony and peace.”The opening came just days after Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari made the first trip to India by a Pakistani head of state in seven years.Pakistan has brought more than 650 business people to the Indian capital for the trade show as commercial ties improve between the neighbours.The two countries have approved a most-favoured-nation accord, reducing taxes that hamper trade.“(A) lot of movement has happened in the past year, normalisation is going very fast,” Pakistan Commerce Secretary Dafar Mahmood said.
The fair showcases the products of Pakistan’s top jewellery, furniture and clothes designers along with the goods of leading food producers.“We have the top brands of Pakistan, the high-end fashion and creative work in this show,” Tariq Puri, chief executive of the Trade Development Authority of Pakistan, said.“We have never had so many quality people under the same roof.”The Pakistani lifestyle exhibition in New Delhi follows a successful “made-in-India” trade show in the Pakistani city of Lahore in February.

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 06:17**

Rangudu wrote:
Anujan wrote:I would also add: bring OBL back to life, restoring him to where he was found, repairing his house and apologizing to his family for the disturbance.
Good one! I hope you don't mind me borrowing it

Thanks Allah, Paoqs could have asked Lal Qila, Name India with 16th Century Moghul India status.
America should move its Treasury, Curreny Printing facilties in Lahore and POTUS to make daily Azan via Skype .

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 06:24**

Anujan wrote: I think India will become what lebanon was to the ME. A destination for wealthy Saudis to invest, booze, party. Then go back home and tell the abduls how much of detestable debauchery goes on there. Serves twin purposes of entertainment for elites and whipping boy for the abduls.

True. P2P contact is being mostly pushed by Paki elites who want some freedom to enjoy their lives which they can't do it in radical society of Pakistan.

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 06:47**

After all that, what does US have in it ?

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 06:47**

KLNMurthy wrote:shiv, paki outlook towards "hindu" India can be understood by extrapolating from nizami Hyderabad experience.

Pakis don't hate Indians in the conventional sense. They actually want good bhai-chara with two provisos: (1) Indians must take care of pakis' material and egotistical needs.(2) Indians must be at pakis' mercy which they will dispense most of the time but which they will replace with massively destructive fury at their own discretion. It adds up to a genteel slavery.

Formulations like "pakis hate India" are confusing as they are easily contradicted. Slaveowners love their slaves as a rule.

I believe this formulation doesn't need hair splitting about non-monolithic pakistan etc. Pakis becoming supposedly better informed about Indian niceness is also irrelevant in this light.

I have no specific arguments about this, and this may well be the very information that serves as a basis for the peace attack on Pakistan.

But if this peace attack must have dividends it has to mean something to a target population in Pakistan. Who are the target population and what can they hope to get?

Another set of generalizations about Pakistan may be useful in clarifying these questions

About the people who would benefit from peace and normalization of relations with India we have only some dribs and drabs of information

We are told (by Indians making peace) that there is a large community of peace seekers in Pakistan.
There are Paki traders who seek access to Indian markets
The prices and quality of Indian goods are mixed sugar-poison for Pakistan. Sugar for buyers in Pakistan. Poison for the current monopolies in Pakistan
Opening India up for travel will serve as a huge boost to Pakistanis who seek to visit India whom we are told exist in large numbers

There is other "general information" about how Pakistanis will benefit from peace and normalization of relations

The Pakistani economy is not doing well. Economies need a stable environment and ideally investment to develop manufacturing, value additions, services or natural resources.
There is a rising gap between the population and Pakistan's ability to educate and utilise their people for profitable work (other than dreams of conquest)
Given Pakistan's geography there is only one large, easily available market for the low value goods produced in Pakistan
No aid givers can support and improve the lives of 190 million people

The Pakistanis least likely to benefit from peace moves are
1. The Pakistan army brass and the "deep state"
2. The head honchos and main functionaries of Islamic groups like the Difa e Pakistan/Jamaat ud Dawa/LeT

Having said that both groups would benefit from peace is India disarmed, moved back from the border and dropped vigilance. But this is a highly risky proposition given that these are the very groups that form the allies of one or other for Pakistan's 3.5 friends.

Pakistan governance is in the doldrums. As a nation the Pakjabi establishment does not bat an eyelid as they boast of the great things Pakistan has, but a large number are empty boasts and an even larger number depend on comparisons with India (India has more poor people). The fact is that Pakistanis are living a lie. But this has been discussed at length on these fora and I won't go into that. For "peace and normalization" Pakistanis have to be made to come face to face with the lies they have told themselves over the decades about their superiority, moral right and sustainability of their ideology. Part of the problem is the negative role of geopolitics and that fact that Pakistanis have jumped headlong into alliances with nations who don't give a damn about what happens to Pakistan (or India for that matter) as long as their own work is done. The USA, China and Saudi barbaria all have a role in this. Facing up to these facts is going to lead to a great deal of anger in Pakistan and the natural and expected reaction would be rejection and denial. Uncovering the perfidious role played by the US and China (if possible) would be useful.

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 07:07**

SSridhar wrote:After all that, what does US have in it ?

They get access to a "strategic" location to hunt "al-quaeda #3s".

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 08:35**

Rumors are that track-2 wallahs successfully sold the BS that "Pakis should be stakeholders in India's economy and stability" and want opportunities to invest and sell in India. This is a step towards that direction. As a next step, look for increased travel permits for artists, exhibitors, performers ityadi, followed by relaxing the investment rules.

Goddammit!!

As it is, we havent tracked 100s of Paoks who went "missing" after MMS opened the borders for a dose of Pappi-Jhappi 5-6 years back for the Indo-Pak test series. Now, can safely expect the number of Paki led sleeper cells to double in desh.

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 08:37**

sum wrote:
As it is, we havent tracked 100s of Paoks who went "missing" after MMS opened the borders for a dose of Pappi-Jhappi 5-6 years back for the Indo-Pak test series. Now, can safely expect the number of Paki led sleeper cells to double in desh.

All this is trust deficit. We need to remove the trust deficit. Only a minority are extremists. Only 2% of Pakistan voted for Islamic parties, but 102% voted for democratic parties.

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 09:01**

sum wrote:
Rumors are that track-2 wallahs successfully sold the BS that "Pakis should be stakeholders in India's economy and stability" a. . .
Goddammit!!

sum, I believe that progress in Track-II talks in the last two years has gone far beyond a mere visa liberalization issue. Man Mohan Singh's promise to visit Pakistan when a major development happens, is pointer to the progress being made. The already taken decisions are only being announced incrementally by both sides to prepare the ground for a more significant announcement in due course of time. The US has immediately welcomed Man Mohan Singh's acceptance of the Zardari invitation. Both PPP and INC need some dramatic breakthrough that they can sell to their people to retrieve the fast-slipping ground under their feet. PPP sees the current weakness of the PA as an opportune time to have some deals with India without its seal of approval. As always demanded by Pakistan (and accepted by India), the larger country must be very generous. As always, Pakistan will simply dangle some carrots for the future while India will concede. I certainly expect some bombshell within the next six months.

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 09:02**

Rangudu wrote:
Anujan wrote:I would also add: bring OBL back to life, restoring him to where he was found, repairing his house and apologizing to his family for the disturbance.
Good one! I hope you don't mind me borrowing it

Please feel free

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 09:16**

SSridhar wrote: I certainly expect some bombshell within the next six months.

Sridhar. I have no proof, but I will say what I have said before. The role of the US on the Paki army will be crucial here. If the US chooses to restrict the Paki army, then other things will move as MMS wants. The US is the wildcard.

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 09:42**

SSridhar wrote:The US has immediately welcomed Man Mohan Singh's acceptance of the Zardari invitation. Both PPP and INC need some dramatic breakthrough that they can sell to their people to retrieve the fast-slipping ground under their feet. <...>
I certainly expect some bombshell within the next six months.

I will be very frank. I am a patriot and wish well for my country. I am a very rational person and I am well educated.
I DO NOT WANT PEACE WITH PAKISTAN.
Any politician who wants peace with Pakistan should either do it for some elusive chankian purpose deserving Bharat Ratna OR is an outright traitor who must be hanged till death.

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 09:44**

^^^ I think we have more of the latter

Posted: **13 Apr 2012 09:44**

CRamS wrote:
surinder wrote:
9/11 put the TSP'ians in a quandry. I had thought that this was the end. I think they themselves thought that end was near and the wrath of Amir Khan was going to be bad. But they found their footings (and the Emir lost its own). Finally, they could calibrate well again.

This is exactly what mystifies me. At the very least, whether or not TSP pigLeT terror against India was part of post 9/11 so called GWOT or not, the very fact that TSP was made to confront its own evil made optimistic that TSP would be brought to justice. But that TSP has managed to wriggle out and we have the pre 9/11 India TSP equal equal is shocking to me at least. From India's POV, who is to blame, India, US, or is TSP such a wily enemy to contend with?

We should blame those who want to allow TSP a free pass after the dastardly attack. They are in India, US and TSP.

Bharat Rakshak

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