Mangalyaan: ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 24 Nov 2013 02:39

IMHO, praying is akin to some people wearing "intimidating" $1000-2000 suits to interviews to feel confident. It is something like "we have done all we can. now it is all up to a higher authority - call it god or chance (or in a business situation the interviewer/the decision maker).

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 24 Nov 2013 08:47

(I got a value of 20 meters at 350 Kms with rough calculation using the 3.5Kms value at 70,000) The pixel at that distance will match a distance of 25 meters ie two point discrimination is 25 meters ie any distance less than 25 meters will be either in one pixel or another and any distance more than 25 meters will be in separate pixels. Funny thing was I was explaining this concept to my cardiac surgery students just yesterday wrt imaging (we need to understand this when interpreting CT angiograms and its inherent constraints),So when the camera is moved far away the two point discrimination distance automatically becomes larger.As an example you can see a pixelated image when you are very close to a TV whereas when you go far away it looks smooth as we are beyond the two point discrimination level (visual acuity) for the eye at that distance.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 24 Nov 2013 09:24

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 24 Nov 2013 12:38

Pixels can be manipulated in various ways that calculations like above are made invalid. Usually this happens to speedup rendering but usually medical imaging is true to reality most times especially when measurements have to be made. Lot more to it than eyeballing.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 24 Nov 2013 14:11

Of course there is more to imaging than eyeballing but rough estimates can be made.Unfortunately in medical imaging (and in any sort of imaging) the limitation is always the sensor and acquisition conditions. One of the things is that often what is measured is often done by eyeballing especially 3D representations (which has borrowed heavily from the cartoon industry (PIXAR and Industrial Light and Magic helped imaging CT and MRI companies a lot !!).This is commonly seen for eg when a surgeon and a radiologist interact.The radiologist will take the raw 2D images for most of his analysis whereas the surgeon like to have the VR(3D reconstructions) to manipulate and use as that is more representative for him /her of "reality". One uses the hard image processing whereas surgeons will use fuzzy 3d imaging representations to get a final 3D reconstruct !! Diferent strokes for different folks.

I wonder what are the difficulties limitations for putting a very high sensor/optics for the camera especially (especially as very high definition imaging is possible now ) for space use and how radiation etc are factored in as these could potentially degrade images.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 24 Nov 2013 14:36

If you zoom in here at the base of the craft, many nozzle-like parts are seen

Yes those are the ones, they are attached to a white area inside the golden covers, if you carefully observe you can see 2 more on the other side too. Each would have two thrusters, so in total it makes 8 of them

member_23832 · Post by **member_23832** » 24 Nov 2013 15:50

Details of fuel consumed in MOM in earth orbit

Isro to launch German, French, British, Canadian satellites

CHENNAI: The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), that got global recognition for its successful launch of a mission to Mars, will now launch German, French, British and Canadaian satellites, a top official said.

"We will be launching EnMAP (Environmental Mapping and Analysis Programme) satellite belonging to Germany. The satellite will weigh around 800 kg," Isro chairman K Radhakrishnan told IANS in an interview.

The EnMAP is a hyperspectral satellite that would provide images of the Earth at regular intervals. This apart, ISRO will be launching French satellite SPOT-7 during the first quarter of 2014, Radhakrishnan said.

"There will be four more small foreign satellites that would go along with SPOT-7," he added.

ISRO had launched the SPOT-6 satellite in 2012.

Radhakrishnan said discussions were held with British agencies for launching three satellites each weighing around 300 kg and also to launch a set of Canadian satellites. The idea is to have at least one commercial launch every year using the Indian Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV), the Isro chairman said.

According to him, the PSLV rocket's reliability has been underlined once again with the launch of Mars Orbiter in a precise manner despite the challenges.

Queried about the status of Mars Orbiter, he said: "The Orbiter has been raised to around 193,000 km apogee (farthest point from Earth). We are all gearing up for the dawn of Dec 1 when the Orbiter will be injected in trans-Martian orbit."

ISRO has been switching on the various systems and payloads of the Orbiter to check their functionalities and health.

"All the instruments are working normal. The satellite's health is good," Radhakrishnan said.

India launched on November 5 its first inter-planetary mission to Mars with a two-fold objective - technological and scientific. The project outlay was around Rs 450 crore.

The technological objectives include design and realisation of Mars orbiter with a capability to survive and perform Earth-bound manoeuvres, cruise phase of 300 days, Mars orbit insertion/capture, and on-orbit phase around Mars.

It will also enable deep space communication, navigation, mission planning and management and incorporate autonomous features to handle contingency situations.

The scientific mission will be to explore the Mars surface features, morphology, mineralogy and Martian atmosphere by indigenous scientific instruments.

Radhakrishnan said the Orbiter will be using around 365 kg on board fuel in the orbit raising activities out of around 850 kg fuel on board.

Comparing the latest Mars mission MAVEN of the US, Radhakrishnan said the American Atlas V rocket has a payload capacity of 13 tonnes to GTO (geo-transfer orbit) while the PSLV-XL capacity is only around 1,300 kg.

"The American satellite, weighing around 2,500 kg, carries payload weighing around 65 kg and around 1,600 kg fuel. Our Orbiter weighing 1,350 kg carries a payload of just 15 kg and fuel of around 850 kg," he added.

What he did not compare is the cost incurred in the both the missions. While India will be spending around $72 million the US mission is budgeted at $671 million.

Radhakrishnan reiterated that the Mars mission proves India's capability to undertake such complex tasks.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 312615.cms

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 24 Nov 2013 16:27

sooraj wrote:ISRO seeking Lord Balaji's blessings is superstition: Professor C N R Rao
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 275831.cms

from comments

If you forget your culture , your ancestors and your past then the end has come -----Swami Vivekananda.

Can be explained by understanding the difference between the mindset and outlook of a scientist and an engineer. Kalam sir is an engineer.

For a scientist of pure streams, world and solutions are fairly theoretical. Yes, in theory there is indeed no need of "god". It reflects even in our adhyatmik traditions. The sankhya-part is purely theoretical where as Yoga is applied saamkhya. Saamkhya does not require Ishwara whereas Yoga understands the need of Ishwara as a powerful tool to steady a mind.

Many things work differently in a machine than the way they work in controlled environment of laboratory. The very fuel which burns at x rate and yields y kilojoules of energy per unit time in lab, at times behaves differently when the rocket is actually performing. Not everything can be controlled in engineering.

Given so much is at stake, I do not think of an engineer in such fashion like Dr. Rao said. There may be very well no Ishwara but if it helps then why not? Much better than ingesting valium pills, no?

It would be alarming if they engineers compromise in science in the design and engineering phase and post failure analysis of problem and focus on graha-shanti and satyanarayana pooja. No one does that.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Nov 2013 16:31

enough of the worship/superstition thing already. plz discuss it elsewhere.
- Rahul

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 24 Nov 2013 17:23

As far as fuel actually saved versus originally budgeted 4 Kg of fuel has been saved(originally 6 but an additional 2 Kg was used for the additional burn.Every Kg saved can potentially extend the mission.Would wonder if they can plan some fly by of some interesting object at the end of its main mission if sufficient fuel is saved.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 24 Nov 2013 17:29

From ISRO FB page

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 24 Nov 2013 19:36

ISRO has existing capabilities for future planetary missions after Mars, say to Venus. Since proven SAR payloads/tech exist already within ISRO, it can be used for "seeing" through the thick atmosphere of Venus.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 24 Nov 2013 19:45

What he did not compare is the cost incurred in the both the missions. While India will be spending around $72 million the US mission is budgeted at $671 million.

When comparing costs one has to realize that manpower costs are almost ten times in the US. If an ISRO scientist makes $10k a year, the equivalent person in NASA makes close to $100k if not more. Most work in the US is farmed out to companies, so there is cost escalation too as the mission progresses. The $70 million for ISRO is most equipment cost and may not include personnel salaries etc. Did you know that most people who work on planetary missions in ISRO are the same guys who work on Earth remote sensing. That is not the case in NASA. I do salute the ISRO guys for their ability to work on multiple missions seamlessly. Frankly, they are underpaid.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 24 Nov 2013 20:01

^^^ I wonder if the cost includes the usage of facilities outside ISRO, e.g the US deep-space network (probably a 'rental fee' of sort is being paid). And not sure if the mission would have been launched with only the desi deep-space communication facilities. Perhaps it would have been, and with a degraded communication mode. Dont know how critical the non-desi deep space facilities are.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 24 Nov 2013 20:06

symontk wrote:
If you zoom in here at the base of the craft, many nozzle-like parts are seen
Yes those are the ones, they are attached to a white area inside the golden covers, if you carefully observe you can see 2 more on the other side too. Each would have two thrusters, so in total it makes 8 of them

Yes, I did count two per pad, and there are 4 pads all around. Which makes the two large golden 'cones' on the side somewhat interesting. Are they thrust nozzles? It looks like only one face (out of 4) has them. For sure, two faces do not. And how does the craft maintain an earthlock (assume this to mean that it faces the earth at all times). I suppose it uses reaction wheels (as opposed to thrusters).
http://media.newindianexpress.com/PSLV_ ... LV_EPS.jpg

Here's a low-res but nice picture, the Mars craft is in a more basic stage of construction....no gold foil, the two cones are clearly visible.....the machine holding the satellite says 'megha tropiques'

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 24 Nov 2013 20:16

I do not think NASA charges any fee of any kind. It is always in material support. NASA to my knowledge does not do what Antrix does, nor does it have any such plans. Deep space communications support to ISRO would likely fall under the umbrella of many treaties signed between the US agency and ISRO. It is all about data sharing and facilities sharing in kind. Sometimes it runs into issues as Antrix the ISRO twin, has a different agenda.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Nov 2013 20:38

prasannasimha wrote:Of course there is more to imaging than eyeballing but rough estimates can be made.Unfortunately in medical imaging (and in any sort of imaging) the limitation is always the sensor and acquisition conditions. One of the things is that often what is measured is often done by eyeballing especially 3D representations (which has borrowed heavily from the cartoon industry (PIXAR and Industrial Light and Magic helped imaging CT and MRI companies a lot !!).This is commonly seen for eg when a surgeon and a radiologist interact.The radiologist will take the raw 2D images for most of his analysis whereas the surgeon like to have the VR(3D reconstructions) to manipulate and use as that is more representative for him /her of "reality". One uses the hard image processing whereas surgeons will use fuzzy 3d imaging representations to get a final 3D reconstruct !! Diferent strokes for different folks.

I wonder what are the difficulties limitations for putting a very high sensor/optics for the camera especially (especially as very high definition imaging is possible now ) for space use and how radiation etc are factored in as these could potentially degrade images.

From what you have explained, I would not compare techs in the medical arena with that of the sats. "Optics" - as it is known in the sats arena - is very advanced (for sure they do not rely on commercial companies like PIXAR). Suffice to say India is very advanced in "optics".

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Nov 2013 20:45

IIRC, the ISRO related articles stated that the cost of $73 mil was that low because ISRO tends to use time tested systems: both actual hardware and processes.

One of the main reasons why this project was not just "cheap", but also why it took so short a time.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Nov 2013 21:34

Crafting the Craft !

High Gain Antenna Testing in Anechoic Chamber.

High Gain Antenna (HGA): In Mars Orbit, the 2.2 m diameter HGA system is required to transmit/receive the commands, telemetry and data between spacecraft and Indian Deep Space Network.

The picture shows the high power RF testing of HGA antenna inside an anechoic chamber.

An anechoic chamber is a room designed to completely absorb reflections of electromagnetic waves. They are also insulated from exterior sources of noise. The combination of both aspects means they simulate a quiet open-space of infinite dimension which is ideal for testing communication antennas designed to operate in space.

kinda exactly what i was thinking (past posts) for LCA++ skins, at a nano/micro scale levels.

- this would be entirely inner skin while the external aerodynamic surface maintained.

member_23832 · Post by **member_23832** » 24 Nov 2013 21:42

Bade wrote:ISRO has existing capabilities for future planetary missions after Mars, say to Venus. Since proven SAR payloads/tech exist already within ISRO, it can be used for "seeing" through the thick atmosphere of Venus.

India planning Venus mission

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... aan-1-isro

TIRUPATI: An Indian scientific mission to Venus is being considered by the space community. This was announced by M S Anurup of Isro at the 17th National Space Science Symposium which has been jointly organised by Isro and Sri Venkateshwara University.

According to Anurup, a preliminary study had indicated that if this mission gets the go ahead and depending upon the orbital parameters, it could be launched on May 20, 2015 arriving in Venus in October 2015. There could be about five scientific instruments on board the Venus-bound spacecraft. The rocket could either be the advanced version of the Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV-XL) or the Geo Synchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV) or the newer version of the GSLV designated as GSLV Mark3.The preliminary study states that the main role of the Indian mission to Venus would be to study its atmosphere. It will also help to examine the origin and evolution of terrestrial planets.

The report has expressed confidence that based on the success of the Chandrayaan-1 mission, India has the capability to launch a mission to Venus. In addition, with the launch of Risat-1 satellite next month, India will possess a radar imaging capability which will be necessary for the Venus mission. In another recent development, scientists of the Ahmedabad-based Physical Research Laboratory (PRL) have reported the existence of a cavity on Mars for the first time measuring 500 metres by 100 metres.

This was announced by them at the Tirupati space meet through a poster. The project which was based on the data obtained from Nasa Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) was jointly done by SVS Murthy and Rishitosh Sinha of PRL. Sinha said the newly-found cavity is bowl shaped and is located at the foot of a crater hill.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 24 Nov 2013 21:43

NRao wrote:
prasannasimha wrote: From what you have explained, I would not compare techs in the medical arena with that of the sats. "Optics" - as it is known in the sats arena - is very advanced (for sure they do not rely on commercial companies like PIXAR). Suffice to say India is very advanced in "optics".

Of course they are not comparable. I was giving an example to explain how two point discrimination and acuity works.Having said that my sister works in imaging systems for MRI's etc and actually it is a two way street between medical and other systems(including NASA etc) as the physics and algorithms used in medical imaging has spun off to other fields! actually most of the imaging reconstructions today (for eg even the images generated by camera's (post processing) have a lot to do with the animation industry which were pioneers. The same is with satellite data - the raw data may be more accurate in satellite systems as they procure it from a great distance) but reconstructions of that data have been helped by the animation industry !

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Nov 2013 22:09

imho, landing missions are more important than orbiting missions, once enough capability is reached.

SSSalvi · Post by **SSSalvi** » 24 Nov 2013 22:24

Bade wrote:
What he did not compare is the cost incurred in the both the missions. While India will be spending around $72 million the US mission is budgeted at $671 million.
When comparing costs one has to realize that manpower costs are almost ten times in the US. If an ISRO scientist makes $10k a year, the equivalent person in NASA makes close to $100k if not more. Most work in the US is farmed out to companies, so there is cost escalation too as the mission progresses. The $70 million for ISRO is most equipment cost and may not include personnel salaries etc. Did you know that most people who work on planetary missions in ISRO are the same guys who work on Earth remote sensing. That is not the case in NASA. I do salute the ISRO guys for their ability to work on multiple missions seamlessly. Frankly, they are underpaid.

In ISRO, when a person is involved in multiple missions his salary towards every project is computed as per the time he devotes to that project. This salary is transferred from project budget. ( e.g. salary had come from 5 to 6 projects sometimes .. 10% from proj A, 25% from Proj B .. etc )

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Nov 2013 22:37

that is normal resource utilization vs. allocation at all enterprises and large business corporations.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 24 Nov 2013 22:46

Does ISRO also act as a vehicle to launch satellites of other countries? I think that would be a good income source. I would be surprised if they were not doing that already.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 24 Nov 2013 23:41

They have launched satellites for other countries for eg PSLV C10 was a fully commercial launch which launched Israel's TECSAR satellite

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Nov 2013 23:47

KJo !

they have been doing this for donkey years. I'm genuinely shocked that a long-standing BRFite like you isn't aware of that.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Nov 2013 23:54

kJoe was focused on his secret burrows and accumulated his expertise!

btw, fyi: coming soon to the theater next to you 3d imax:
Isro launch of German, French, British, Canadian satellites

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 25 Nov 2013 00:46

avinodhin wrote:
India planning Venus mission

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... aan-1-isro

TIRUPATI: An Indian scientific mission to Venus is being considered by the space community. This was announced by M S Anurup of Isro at the 17th National Space Science Symposium which has been jointly organised by Isro and Sri Venkateshwara University.
....

This was talked about as early at 2009, when ISRO had hosted a low-cost planetary mission workshop with participants from JPL, APL, ESA, JAXA all leading world agencies.
http://iaaweb.org/content/view/357/538/

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 25 Nov 2013 01:13

Bade wrote: Frankly, they are underpaid.

I think it is half and half. They are somewhat underpaid but NASA people are somewhat overpaid. Overheads are almost 30-40% in US - if the employee gets 100K , healthcare (majority of which is eaten up by docs and lawyers)/401K (Wall street)/retirement (paid by the tax payer)/yum bee yay admins (Ivy League tuition) etc. will bump th ecost to 150K. Contractors would charge about 200K but that gives the ability to smooth the workforce (in private companies).

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 25 Nov 2013 01:16

NRao wrote:From what you have explained, I would not compare techs in the medical arena with that of the sats. "Optics" - as it is known in the sats arena - is very advanced (for sure they do not rely on commercial companies like PIXAR). Suffice to say India is very advanced in "optics".

Space applications are one off (are a very few) where as medical imaging is mass-market (in a scientific context - not consumer mass market).

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Nov 2013 01:21

well i disagree on the under or over paid aspects as you have not weighted on other economic factors - GDP, living standards, needs, etc. of course, OT. we have this dirty habit of comparing salaries immediately and say we are under paid etc without analyzing ground facts.

the fact remains, that desh overheads are way down when compared to NASA. unless we break the cost down to component levels, unit levels, resource levels, there is no sense in comparing or boasting ISRO>>NASA yadi yada. I think we need to focus on the mission objectives more than just shooting our mouth on cost.

the mission is half done now. sope, let us keep quite.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 25 Nov 2013 01:26

prasannasimha wrote:One of the things is that often what is measured is often done by eyeballing especially 3D representations (which has borrowed heavily from the cartoon industry (PIXAR and Industrial Light and Magic helped imaging CT and MRI companies a lot !!).

Let us give credit where it is due - Computational Geometry/Computer Graphics sub-speciality of Computer Scientists. The standard books are Preparata and Shamos, Herbert Edelsbrunner (his company in NC Raindrop Geomagic has powerful tools for point cloud processing - dental implants and bridges, reverse engineering of parts from laser scanned point clouds of mechanical parts, orthopedics) and Kurt Melhorn's CGAL library now. Some of these algorithms and data structures are at the bottom of what Pixar and ILM people do.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 25 Nov 2013 02:06

prasannasimha wrote:(for eg even the images generated by camera's (post processing) have a lot to do with the animation industry which were pioneers. The same is with satellite data - the raw data may be more accurate in satellite systems as they procure it from a great distance) but reconstructions of that data have been helped by the animation industry !

Reconstruction for display is irrelevant eye-candy in most applications - what is important are numbers. Think of I put a part into a laser scanner at one end and I get millions of parts from the other end. No, I am not talking about 3D printing. Something close to this - I say close because may be 30% manual intervention at some critical points is required - is already possible depending on the accuracy and robustness. On the other hand, surgery will never be fully automated because any error is catastrophic which is also the case in space.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Nov 2013 02:23

and numbers drives the models, that goes into computational complexities. graphics only give a visual representation of the model you are trying to deliver. example: LCA autolay.

when the modeled graphics are verifying under design and test, it just get replaced by actual real time objects, and the graphics and animations needs feedback to verify, if they intended animation measures were correct, validate, and perhaps correct the animation and even the models. i don't know how much of model verifications, and implementation feedback is matured into modeling process.

i hope we had a model of the whole mom mission on the isro super computers.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Nov 2013 02:38

Space applications are one off (are a very few)

Gathering data is very different. There could be some similarities when it comes to assembling the data for presentation/application, but I very much doubt that too.

On "very few", that is changing. There is a very deliberate effort to change that - on the commercial side.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 25 Nov 2013 07:13

Actually that is something (The "candy play") thing which I actually strongly disagree.Of course the information is out there but 3D visualization does have advantages and can make the image processing by the brain more intuitive Makedes data into information and then knowledge.The knowledge transmission compnenet is easier with graphics of many sorts or else they wouldn't exist- ask why a statistician still plots exploratory and final graphs .It is because the human brain still relies on visuospatial analysis for interpretation which is a process whose working is not well understood. For eg we do get the standard images on a CT scanner but we do sit at the console with the 3D VR image and can get specific information out which is not easily apparent with the plain 2D slices.(Shown it time and again to our radiologists who now agree) It is how you process information and visuospatial information are at times better represented with the 3D VR image and is not just "eye candY"
Of course the underlying physics research was done by scientists but like many things practical application really took a zoom when used by animation industry and bought it to the attention of medical imaging. etc.What was a niche specialty exploded.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 25 Nov 2013 07:18

The methane sensor payload may well yield valuable data. Curiosity's negative findings are difficult to reconcile with Earth-bound spectroscopic data indicating presence of methane.

I don't know if the data are in the public domain but if Curiosity can explain the observed spectral frequencies ie assign the pattern to other chemical moieties, then it would be a much stronger negation of the Earth observations.

Anyway, this will be interesting.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Nov 2013 07:20

Numbers are graphs, graphs are numbers - in different form. It is a matter of granularity. That is all. And, what level of granularity is required ot make a decision will drive how much "candy" is sprinkled around.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 25 Nov 2013 07:32

The scientific payload of the ill-fated British Beagle II space probe sent to Mars.

http://www.beagle2.com/science/payload.htm

Its a pity it did not survive the landing and failed to operate.

Perhaps some of the stuff that went into the Beagle II can be implemented on a future Indian rover - hopefully not to Mars but some more interesting planet/moon like Europa.