The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 16 Oct 2009 12:05

KrishG wrote:When was Russia chosen as the partner ??

If believe to the news it happened now.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 16 Oct 2009 12:56

KrishG wrote:
When was Russia chosen as the partner ?? Both Mil and Eurocopter had bid for join-development of MLH. Neither was selected as their proposed specs didn't match HAL's requirements so the deal was scrapped.

What I meant was that whether Russians have finally been chosen as partner for HAL medium lift helicopter based on the meeting declaration or will they collaborate on an entirely new project unrelated to the it?

SaiK wrote:Nitin, ..about your signature in every post.. what are you trying to imply? /OT

Nothing at all, Sir.

OK I have stopped using it if it is interpreted as to imply something.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 16 Oct 2009 21:24

i think its the mi-46,but i thought the chinese were working with russians for mi-46

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 17 Oct 2009 19:37

India keen to induct 5th-Gen stealth fighter by 2017
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Antony, on his part, has already declared India wants the FGFA's development to be completed by 2016 to ensure IAF can begin inducting it by 2017.

"FGFA discussions with Russia are progressing quite satisfactorily...they are on track. The Russian FGFA prototype should make its first flight sometime early next year,'' said IAF vice-chief Air Marshal P K Barbora.

IAF, in fact, recently finalised the technical requirements for its FGFA, which will have long-range strike and high-endurance air defence capabilities, and submitted them to Russia.

An Indian team will also be leaving for Russia soon to decide the exact sharing of the technical work-load between Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd and Russia's United Aircraft Corporation.

IAF wants the FGFA to have "a very high degree of network centricity'' as well as multi-spectral reconnaissance and surveillance systems -- optical, infra-red, laser and radar sensors. Stealth, with a "minimal'' radar tracking signature, will be an important requirement.
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While fourth-generation fighters typically revolve around multi-role capabilities, FGFA takes it forward by incorporating stealth technology, composite materials, supercruise, thrust-vectoring and integrated avionics as well.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 17 Oct 2009 19:45

shravan wrote:India keen to induct 5th-Gen stealth fighter by 2017
.
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Antony, on his part, has already declared India wants the FGFA's development to be completed by 2016 to ensure IAF can begin inducting it by 2017.

"FGFA discussions with Russia are progressing quite satisfactorily...they are on track. The Russian FGFA prototype should make its first flight sometime early next year,'' said IAF vice-chief Air Marshal P K Barbora.

IAF, in fact, recently finalised the technical requirements for its FGFA, which will have long-range strike and high-endurance air defence capabilities, and submitted them to Russia.

An Indian team will also be leaving for Russia soon to decide the exact sharing of the technical work-load between Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd and Russia's United Aircraft Corporation.

IAF wants the FGFA to have "a very high degree of network centricity'' as well as multi-spectral reconnaissance and surveillance systems -- optical, infra-red, laser and radar sensors. Stealth, with a "minimal'' radar tracking signature, will be an important requirement.
.
.
While fourth-generation fighters typically revolve around multi-role capabilities, FGFA takes it forward by incorporating stealth technology, composite materials, supercruise, thrust-vectoring and integrated avionics as well.

2017 once again! Its a good thing that they are trying to get it early, but 2017 reminds me of the report that said that 2017 might be date of war between India and China.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 17 Oct 2009 21:10

kittoo wrote: 2017 once again! Its a good thing that they are trying to get it early, but 2017 reminds me of the report that said that 2017 might be date of war between India and China.

Don't worry my friend...I think by that time we will have MMRCA and upgraded Mig-29 and LCA and Su - 30MKI...!!!

I think with a complete configuration of above aircrafts...we will be more than a match to our Jhingo friends

.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Oct 2009 21:41

IIRC it was always 2017 for Indian FGFA (NOT PAK-FA).

However:

"FGFA discussions with Russia are progressing quite satisfactorily...they are on track. The Russian FGFA prototype should make its first flight sometime early next year,'' said IAF vice-chief Air Marshal P K Barbora.

1) An Indian AF person making that statement
2) Prototype moved from 2009 to early 2010

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 18 Oct 2009 13:50

NRao wrote: 1) An Indian AF person making that statement

Shows we are equal partners

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Oct 2009 17:34

nrshah wrote:
NRao wrote: 1) An Indian AF person making that statement
Shows we are equal partners

Actually more than that. A delay in a non-partner's project - PAK-FA is not part of the Indian partnership (as far as I can tell), FGFA is dependent on it. So, I would expect a "partner" to comment on his own project and leave other projects to their own ownership. ?????????????? Just a thought.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 18 Oct 2009 22:00

NRao wrote:
nrshah wrote: Shows we are equal partners
Actually more than that. A delay in a non-partner's project - PAK-FA is not part of the Indian partnership (as far as I can tell), FGFA is dependent on it. So, I would expect a "partner" to comment on his own project and leave other projects to their own ownership. ?????????????? Just a thought.

This is always confusing. If we are not a parter in PAK-FA then what this 50-50% parternship is about? if we are only in FGFA then shouldnt it and only it be funded 100% by us?

I think it makes more sense to merge both and call it one project having two customized outputs as per the partner's need.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Oct 2009 22:16

afaik the extent of indian specified or developed input would be outside of the basic airframe, radar and engine (the three main legs) which would be common to russian version of pakfa.

rest is up in the air. if it makes technical, strategic and economic sense much more of russian
eqpt could be used.

we can call it MCA or FGPA but HAL/ADA sure aint developing the three main legs of it.

we need to clean our own house by investing the $$$ needed for a local gromov flight test instt
and other missing infra, then probably develop a stealth UCAV to complement the manned MCA. being unmanned, perhaps some of the test points and complexity will be reduced.

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 19 Oct 2009 04:34

Russia and India have prepared a new agreement on military-technical cooperation

Russo-Indian Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation has prepared number of agreements, said Defense Minister of India.In particular, the parties agreed to modifying the Indian Army's Russian tanks and planes.Decision on the most "painful" item - "Admiral Gorshkov" - hasn't not solved, but clarified the future project to develop fifth generation fighter.

A new agreement on military-technical cooperation between Russia and India for 2011-2020 will be signed in December during a visit to Moscow, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, RIA Novosti reported with reference to the Minister of Defense Arakkaparambila Kurian Antony, who headed a delegation to the next meeting of the Russo-Indian intergovernmental commission on military-technical cooperation.

It is noteworthy that during the negotiations, apparently failed to reach agreement for the upgrade Indian order of "Admiral Gorshkov" (INS Vikramaditya).

"On other issues, including draft aircraft carrier" Admiral Gorshkov ", we will continue to negotiate to find mutually beneficial solutions," - Anthony told reporters at the final press conference.

Recall earlier in the media with reference to the leaders of Rosoboronexport, it was reported that the sides were close to agreement on a new contract to replace the worth 2.9 billion dollars against 974 million provided in 2004.Despite this, commentators argue that the final sum may be close to $ 4 billion - the cost of a ship of similar class in the market, although in principle the "market value of the aircraft carrier to say it is difficult.

As announced on October 7 Interfax CEO of Rosoboronexport, Anatoly Isaikin: "Financing of the contract (on aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov - approx. Ed.) - Is, of course, is the main theme of the talks. There is progress, significant progress. I We have all chances to make in the near future successfully conclude these negotiations with a mutually acceptable outcome. But at the same time, he noted that "prolonged discussion relates primarily to the fact that spanned each item on a list of additional works, and then went score for each item on the list. Most likely, the visit of Anthony to agree on all the items on the list failed.

However, the refusal of Indians from the draft speech is not: in particular, the program production aircraft for the air group "Vikramadati" is developing successfully. October 9 MiG-29KUB with Russia and the Indian identification signs of the first flights from the deck of an aircraft carrier "Admiral Kuznetsov" under Russian pilots, and soon to start training Indian pilots.

Note that the re-production of a foreign carrier for the full exploitation of Russian planes is very lot of money: from half to one third of the total cost of the ship.

Another important aspect of the meeting - a preliminary agreement to jointly develop a fifth generation fighter.It would seem, a prototype of Russia's aircraft already at the exit, is about to begin his trial. Moreover, beginning to be understood and its appearance. It is believed that most closely corresponds to it a sketch, reproduced in the article Polish aviazhurnalista Pera Butovsky, which was published in the October issue of French magazine Air et Cosmos. It is represented as a twin-engine machine, dvuhkilevoy plane with a diamond-shaped wing of a small extension, round (as opposed to flat on the American F-22A) engine nozzles and the internal arrangement of weapons.In this case the bow is quite like the Su-35 and other modern fighter aircraft company Sukhoi. Air intakes of engines - flat and slanted - in accordance with the requirements of invisibility, the wing has an extensive root influx.

In general, the plane has a very harmonious and unique silhouette, silhouettes dramatically different from the American counterparts.

Earlier media reported that India is developing its own project easy fifth-generation fighter, but looking at the "successes" in the program of the national light combat aircraft LCA Tejas, to expect miracles from the Indian aviation industry is not necessary. Now, according to official Indian sources, as the national fifth generation fighter aircraft is considered FGFA: virtually the same fighter Sukhoi, adapted to Indian requirements. That is, the joint plane will probably be long-term development of Russia's aviation complex frontal aviation, but with the use of Indian, Russia and / or imported avionics and possibly of Indian materials.

We must pay tribute to the Indians: for his "tejas" they have developed some very advanced aircraft systems and launched a number of structural materials, particularly composites. However, placing new equipment on the fifth-generation fighter designed from the stringent requirements of invisibility - the problem is very complicated, is actually equivalent to designing a new machine in the contours and dimensions available. This Indian FGFA a total similarity will differ markedly in the details of Russia's equivalent.

Actually, from the Indian side needed two things: articulate, finally, the tactical and technical requirements for the aircraft (for example, it is still unclear, he will be single or double) and ensure sufficient funding for Russia's side.

The resulting aircraft, most likely, will have a very good export prospects, and, perhaps, to build export planes in India is cheaper than in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

Air project at seven times the speed of sound

The new cruise missile for the fighter 5 th generation multi-purpose military transport aircraft, advanced armored personnel carriers and other high-tech weapons,will be created by Russia and India together.

These and many other important plans yesterday discussed the Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov and his colleague Arakkaparambil Kurian Antony. In December, Moscow intends to visit the Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.By this visit, the military want to coincide with the signing of an ambitious program of military-technical cooperation up to 2021. The defense ministers of both countries every year there are some in Moscow, then in Delhi.Cooperation between Russia and India in the defense sector has long overstepped the stage of "buyer-seller" and is based on a mutually beneficial and equal partnership. Influence this process can not be any serious competition for the Indian defense contracts, no difficulties with the implementation of already concluded agreements.

For example, a contract for the refurbishment of Russia's Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier in the Indian Navy "Vikramaditya" in his time badly miscalculated.Now Russia is pushing for a further sum of 1,2 billion dollars. Indians are in principle, not against supplements, but called the price lower. Bargaining in such cases is very appropriate, even for long-term partners. Experts are able to talk to the correspondent "RG", in one voice asserted that a mutually acceptable amount in any case determine. It is possible it will happen in the next couple of months.

With the supply of deck-seat MiG-29K for "Vikramaditya", according to the head of the United Aircraft Corporation Alexei Fyodorov, there isn't problem.The first aircraft of the Indian party has been "running" in the Barents Sea on heavy nuclear missile cruiser "Admiral Kuznetsov". There is talk of a possible purchase by India of another 29 fighters.Yesterday Serdyukov and his colleagues raised the issue of modernization with the help of our fighter-bombers, MiG-27 and Su-30MKI.

Aviation and the Indian navy is not the only troops that rearming with the participation of Russia's defense industry. For example, in Delhi are still interested in the supply, licensed production and modernization of tanks T-90S and T-72M1, infantry fighting vehicle BMP-2. According to expert the export of our armored vehicles overseas by 2020 will reach several thousand units. On the total amount of military contracts for obvious reasons, prefer not to talk, but talking about billions of dollars. True, the Indians are not interested in "single" contracts, and the whole package of agreements. This includes providing for the maintenance of weapons and military equipment.This is, so to speak, the job tomorrow. As of today, the program of military-technical cooperation between Russia and India before 2011 includes some two hundred different projects, valued huge amount - 20 billion dollars.

Meanwhile

The ideology of the new relations between Moscow and New Delhi suggested working together on a cruise missile "Brahmos". It is so named in honor of the two rivers - the Brahmaputra of India and our Moscow River. This missile since 2001, developed for the Indian Navy.

But it entered service in the Army. Already launched a series of versatile munition is now "trying on" the combat aircraft and submarines.In parallel we are working on the creation of a cruise missile "BrahMos-2", which should have a hypersonic flight speed. According to the plans, it exceeds the speed of sound in 5 - 7 times.

Last year, Anatoly Serdyukov visited the joint Russo-Indian company, which makes BrahMos, and seems to have been much impressed by what he saw.

source:www.aviaport.ru
date:15.10.2009

Interesting tidbit on the PAK-FA i assumed it would look similar to the F-22. Actually i expected it to look very similar to the Black Widow YF-23

m mittal · Post by **m mittal** » 19 Oct 2009 05:43

I don't know who deleted your post or why. may be you can enlighten us about their content.
that does not mean you can go on posting this same message all over the board.
there's a forum feedback thread, use it. or even the admin email.
Rahul.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Oct 2009 10:59

m mittal you can drop a mail to admin and get this sorted out , instead of taking hasty decision.

The Diamond wing and other details like the Pics on Saturn site should end up something like this.

PAK-FA 09 Speculative ( via paralay )

PAK-FA 09 Speculative

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 20 Oct 2009 03:44

PAK-FA 09 Speculative ( via paralay )
PAK-FA 09 Speculative

If the PAk-FA is as large as paralay's drawing i would be very worried about its stealth capabilities. That rendering is monstrous (basically the size of the Su-30MKI) !! . From the rendering it looks like the PAK-FA will have a large internal weapons bay.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 20 Oct 2009 04:04

b_patel wrote: If the PAk-FA is as large as paralay's drawing i would be very worried about its stealth capabilities. That rendering is monstrous (basically the size of the Su-30MKI) !! . From the rendering it looks like the PAK-FA will have a large internal weapons bay.

WHY??

F-22 vs PAK-FA PARALAY
LENGTH-------->18.93 m -- 21.4 m
WINGSPAN----->13.56 m -- 14.3 m

As far as the armament for F-22 is concerned according to wikipedia

The Raptor has three internal weapons bays. It can carry six compressed carriage[100] medium range missiles in the center bay and one short range missile in each of the two side bays. Four of the medium range missiles can be replaced with two bombracks that can each carry one medium-size bomb or four small diameter bombs each.[101] Carrying missiles and bombs internally maintains its stealth capability and maintains lower drag resulting in higher top speeds and longer combat ranges. The aircraft can also carry such air-to-surface weapons as bombs with the Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) guidance system, and the new Small-Diameter Bomb (SDB), but cannot laser-designate weapons itself as it lacks the F-35's stealthy designator.[103] The Raptor carries an M61A2 Vulcan 20 mm rotary cannon, also with a trap door, in the right wing root. The M61A2 is a last ditch weapon, and carries 480 rounds; enough ammunition for approximately five seconds of sustained fire.

and that of PAK-FA PARALAY
MAX 06 LR MISSILES
MAX 10 MR MISSILES
MAX 4(12) SR MISSILES

Even the B-2 STEALTH BOMBER is BIGGER than PAK-FA
General characteristics (WIKIPEDIA)

* Crew: 2
* Length: 69 ft (21.0 m)
* Wingspan: 172 ft (52.4 m)
* Height: 17 ft (5.18 m)
* Wing area: 5,140 ft² (478 >m²)
* Empty weight: 158,000 lb (71,700 kg)
* Loaded weight: 336,500 lb (152,200 kg)
* Max takeoff weight: 376,000 lb (170,600 kg)
* Powerplant: 4× General Electric F118-GE-100 non-afterburning turbofans, 17,300 lbf (77 kN) each

If a B-2 Spirit can hold the fort for the past 12-13 odd years, what makes you think that the stealth of PAK-FA won't suffice??? I don't think we need to worry about the Stealthiness of PAK-FA, as mentioned by our IAF chief that PAK-FA will have SOME radar tracking(source, en.ru.mil) (also remember we plan on putting the l-band on the skin to detect stealthier air-craft like the F-22). I think this will be a mean machine, considering it is being built, 10 years after F-22 has already been built and inducted so it should more than hold it's own.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Oct 2009 04:08

very interesting separation of AESAs by bands X, L and Ka..

wonder there are no frontal IR jammers, but may be they would be mounted below the wings.

The structure remains as was thought about by an artists some eons ago.. front looking like Joseph (JSF) and the rear like Rambha.

Should be very interesting project ahead. Wish they get that P&W engine for VTOL! or imitate one.

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 20 Oct 2009 06:09

WHY??
F-22 vs PAK-FA PARALAY

Russia hasn't truly built any stealth fighters/bombers. The larger the size the harder its going to be to make it as stealthy as the Raptor. The B-2 has an estimate RCS of .75 which is incredible considering how large it is. This was achieved after how many Billions of dollars in R&D! Russia doesn't have the same experience creating stealth aircraft and they are just damaging themselves by building a larger bird like Sukhoi loves to do. I wonder if the Pak-Fa will have the side weapon bays like the Raptor, F-15SE etc. From the spec. drawing it doesn't seem likely.

wonder there are no frontal IR jammers, but may be they would be mounted below the wings.

It would depend on the design of the jammers, and how well they could mold it into the airframe without increasing the RCS (Ex. F-35 IRST). Otherwise it might be an upgrade for later. Wouldn't be suprised if they just try to get a prototype flying and add some tech later.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 20 Oct 2009 08:05

b_patel wrote:
WHY??
F-22 vs PAK-FA PARALAY
Russia hasn't truly built any stealth fighters/bombers. The larger the size the harder its going to be to make it as stealthy as the Raptor. The B-2 has an estimate RCS of .75 which is incredible considering how large it is. This was achieved after how many Billions of dollars in R&D! Russia doesn't have the same experience creating stealth aircraft and they are just damaging themselves by building a larger bird like Sukhoi loves to do. I wonder if the Pak-Fa will have the side weapon bays like the Raptor, F-15SE etc. From the spec. drawing it doesn't seem likely.
wonder there are no frontal IR jammers, but may be they would be mounted below the wings.
It would depend on the design of the jammers, and how well they could mold it into the airframe without increasing the RCS (Ex. F-35 IRST). Otherwise it might be an upgrade for later. Wouldn't be suprised if they just try to get a prototype flying and add some tech later.

REALLY??

So going by your logic just because India and Russia never built a Stealth fighter jet/bomber they are incapable of making one?? Let's see, India never sent an orbiter to moon before, but wait ISRO built Chandrayaan - I and guess what, it was credited of FINDING WATER ON MOON. But I guess you miss the memo that it was INDIA'S 1ST LUNAR MISSION. Goes to show, that just because a nation never built one, does not mean that they WON'T BE SUCCESSFUL. Many examples include where India has does not have the so called "experience" of building stuff, but has been successful in the FIRST ATTEMPT. These include (the Thorium based reactors, RWR Tarangs, and the Indo-Russian JV Bhramos amongst plenty of other things)
Needless to say that just because US pumped billions of $ in R&D, it should have a superior product. You seem to forget that the minimum wage in US is a lot higher than it is in Russia and India. What they achieve with "billions of dollars" We (India and Russia) aim of achieving it ONLY from $ 10 Billion. ($5 Billion from India and the other from Russia) as PAK-FA is a 50-50 JV. Hence I don't think that one should be concerned about India not spending enough or not achieving a lot on a limited budget. Sure I can't refute the fact the US is the largest country in the world that spends Billions in R&D in defense, but just because India and Russia don't match them, doesn't make them incompetent. Being in the military we are always reminded NEVER TO UNDERESTIMATE YOUR ENEMY. Moral of the Story - DON'T LOOK DOWN ONTO OTHERS as YOU(or for that matter I) HAVE NOT SEEN THE FINAL PRODUCT YET. Let the first jet roll out in 2015 and then compare the 2. As of now this is just a speculative (but confirmed)drawing. For all we know, we haven't even see a F-22 in combat. It might still be fixing its own teething problems and upgrade based on the Russian designs and specs. Remember F-22 was built a DECADE ago, the PAK-FA has BARELY JUST GOT OFF THE DRAWING BOARD.
Cheers!

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 20 Oct 2009 08:21

Craig Alpert wrote:
Being in the military we are always reminded NEVER TO UNDERESTIMATE YOUR ENEMY. Moral of the Story - DON'T LOOK DOWN ONTO OTHERS as YOU(or for that matter I) HAVE NOT SEEN THE FINAL PRODUCT YET.

what do you mean by "WE ARE"...JUST ASKING NOTHING PERSONAL.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Oct 2009 08:47

another thread going the wine way!

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 20 Oct 2009 15:57

SaiK wrote:another thread going the wine way!

sorry you feel that way!

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 20 Oct 2009 15:58

sumshyam wrote: what do you mean by "WE ARE"...JUST ASKING NOTHING PERSONAL.

"we are" refers to a Soldier and his platoon.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 20 Oct 2009 16:21

came across an old article

The Russian Air Force also has a requirement of about 300 Sukhoi PAK FA fifth-generation fighters. However, Russia appears to be planning for a production run of 500 to 600, which most likely includes planned exports. Russia also appears to be in the early stages of developing a sixth-generation fighter.

What are the exact number India is planning to buy out of this 300 (600-300)?
The markets may be flooded with F35s by the time Pak-Fa comes out. If we are not buying all the additional 300 who are the other potential buyers?

Any idea about that 6th gen fighter they are talking about?

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 20 Oct 2009 17:38

Kailash wrote:
Any idea about that 6th gen fighter they are talking about?

The future UCAVS are sometimes called the 6th gen fighters.

Mihir.D · Post by **Mihir.D** » 20 Oct 2009 18:11

Igorr wrote:
Kailash wrote:
Any idea about that 6th gen fighter they are talking about?
The future UCAVS are sometimes called the 6th gen fighters.

Igorr,

Are you aware if thats also going to be joint development ?

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 20 Oct 2009 23:43

REALLY??
So going by your logic just because India and Russia never built a Stealth fighter jet/bomber they are incapable of making one??

I never said that! Its going to be hard for Russia to produce one b/c its their first time building one. I expect it to be an impressive aircraft (like most Russian fighters) but if they build one as large as the one shown in the specs its gonna be difficult for it to achieve F-22 level stealth. Never said they can't do it, just that they would have a harder time!

What are the exact number India is planning to buy out of this 300 (600-300)?
The markets may be flooded with F35s by the time Pak-Fa comes out. If we are not buying all the additional 300 who are the other potential buyers?

I don't know if Russian could even afford 150 Pak-Fa's at this point. It all depends on how much it costs but unless they somehow secure export orders its gonna be an expensive plane a la F-22. The only countries I can think of that could afford it would be some Arabic countries that aren't participating in the F-35 program. Saudi Arabia, since they've been buying a lot of russian arms lately (But they won't need something like Pak-Fa for a long time the EF and F-15SE combo will last a long time). All the other countries use US or French weapons primarily. UAE might want to replace their F-16's in like 10 years. There's no one I can really think of who it could be exported to unless Russia offered very attractive prices.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Oct 2009 08:20

arent trapezoid wings capable of enabling a higher top speed compared to more conventional shapes ? the YF-23 was said to be faster than YF-22.

with less weight than su27, but more powerful engines and no external weapons drag, the pakfa with its trapezoid wings should be a superb A2A performer in acceleration, top speed, fuel economy, ceiling, low wing loading, tvc, big control surfaces and supercruise + 360 radar coverage and missile guidance ?

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 21 Oct 2009 10:05

Sixth Generation fighters are likely to be optionally manned.

Here's a PDF on 'sixth generation fighters" from AFA.

http://www.airforce-magazine.com/Magazi ... ighter.pdf

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 21 Oct 2009 12:27

Mihir.D wrote:
Igorr wrote: The future UCAVS are sometimes called the 6th gen fighters.
Are you aware if thats also going to be joint development ?

For now Russia does develop it alone.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Oct 2009 16:28

Igorr what happend to Mig SKAT UCAV , it just came and dissapeared

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 21 Oct 2009 20:14

Austin wrote:Igorr what happend to Mig SKAT UCAV , it just came and dissapeared

The full size dummy was demonstrated for Russian journalists only after big problems with permission and was classified again. For general all UCAV issue is classified. Together with MiG the Irkut's Yakovlev buraue has its UCAV projects too. Few details are known about them.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Oct 2009 20:36

That is very good. Secrecy is needed in these leading edge projects. Granted out threads will move towards speculation or starve.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Oct 2009 21:22

Something new on PAK-FA , from some Russian magazine ( via keypubs )

PAK-FA 1
PAK-FA 2
PAK-FA 3
PAK-FA 4
PAK-FA 5
PAK-FA 6

Can some one translate this , Igorr ?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 21 Oct 2009 21:32

What is there to translate? Its Raptorsky!!! Made by Shakarosky!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Oct 2009 22:12

sounds like russian industry capitalizing on our strengths on LCA rather more than what we can capitalize from russian pak-fa technologies. good thinking though.. as long as its all 50-50, and one 50 does not and should not always be held for screw drivers and spares by the other.

India does lack seriously as said by many, required test platforms, test arena, and testing equiements for pak-fa or FGFA kinds, let alone engine test facilities. We need to get there faster, so that we can truely participate in the program.

Not sure, how russian military folks will accept anything Made In India tag!?, be it composite or display unit or mission computer.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 21 Oct 2009 22:22

Igorr, Which IRST is supposed be used on PAF-FA atleast according to speculation ?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Oct 2009 23:01

Now only if we could get a flat nozzle ................................ we could perhaps sell it at $65 M per to the USAF and everyone would be happy.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Oct 2009 23:06

I would say a million onlee less than raptor.. or ask their budget, and deliver the craft for it. capitalize the money. BTW, we could sell to middle-east for a ransom - starting at 150M to 200M per piece.

USAF is special.. they have already stolen russian technology.. .. i am unhappy, still we can't do VTOL.
========

Speaking on closer plans, the senior officer said Russia’s fifth-generation fighter jet will see its maiden flight later this year, “in November, or probably in December.” So far three prototypes of the PAK FA have been built for land tests, and a machine for aerial tests is on its way. PAK FA is a multipurpose super maneuverable stealth aircraft designed by Sukhoi.

http://www.russiatoday.com/Top_News/200 ... ussia.html

period. we better call it something else.. in all practical sense, its a pak-fa baseline anyway.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 22 Oct 2009 03:41

SaiK wrote: USAF is special.. they have already stolen russian technology.. .. i am unhappy, still we can't do VTOL.

I do not think VTOL on PAK-FA would be a good idea anyways. VTOL means you can't make flat nozzlles. Serious penalty on Stealth. Just consider F-35 as an example for that. USAF is ready to compromise because it projects its power through aircraft carriers. Russia and India do not have enough acs for that and will not in the foreseeable future. Their main a/c fleet will remain ground based for a long time.

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Also, F-35 is not able to utilize vectored thrust for maneuverability because of VTOL. VTOL required nozzles to be made such that it made it nearly impossible to have vectored thrust at even high subsonic speeds (leave alone supersonic speeds).
Though I may be wrong on this. I had read this somewhere but cannot find the source now.
But if this is true, then VTOL on PAK-FA would not be desirable. We certainly would not want PAK-FA without thrust vectoring, would we?
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