Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2012

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60291
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by ramana »

Jhujar wrote:India Puts Kashmir on Table
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 62228.html
NEW DELHI—India is willing to talk about the disputed territory of Kashmir with Pakistan as part of an effort to advance peace talks, India's top diplomat said, adding that Pakistan needs to take serious action against militants that use its soil to attack India.The comments by Indian Foreign Secretary Ranjan Mathai, in an interview with The Wall Street Journal on Wednesday, suggest that a recent thaw in relations between the two countries could lead to discussions on the key territorial issue, which has been off the table since 2007.Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari visited India on Sunday and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh accepted his invitation to make a first official trip to Pakistan, although he didn't commit to a time frame. The U.S. views better relations as essential to political stability in the region, including Afghanistan.

Shouldn't this guy talk to Lok Sabha first instead of Wall Street Journal or does he think he works for USA?
abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

ramana wrote: Shouldn't this guy talk to Lok Sabha first instead of Wall Street Journal or does he think he works for USA?
People like Amar Singh can handle Lok Sabha.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25391
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by SSridhar »

The unusual interest that China had taken in the 'private religious visit' of Zardari to India and the swiftness with which the US welcomed Man Mohan Singh's acceptance of a visit to Islamabad indicate a concerted action. The US and PRC perhaps have different reasons for a change for the better in India-Pakistan relationship. The US wants to quit Afghanistan on time, less bloodied and more honourably than what appears now. China wants to have the resource-cake of Afghanistan after the US leaves. Both believe that Pakistan is the lynchpin for their goals. Tactically, they cannot allow a disturbed situation on Pakistan's eastern border. I believe that both are putting pressure on Pakistan to restrain PA/LeT/ISI from launching a murderous terrorist attack on India that even a docile India may no longer find it possible not to react to. Additionally, the US is putting pressure on India to sweeten the deal for Pakistan so as to be acceptable to it. Something happened between MMS and Gilani at the Nuclear Security Summit at Seoul that prompted a hurried visit by Zardari to hit the iron when it was still hot. Ajmer Sharif is a conveninet ruse to cover up the summit-level talks.
partha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4555
Joined: 02 Jul 2010 15:25

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by partha »

Letters from abroad: Shame on you, you are Pakistani
Suvarnabhumi Aiport, Check-in Counter 1, Row W: I’m at the check-in counter of a low-cost budget airline with an indemnity form staring at me – as if mocking me, telling me you had this coming.

There are four women and three men, all discussing in detail, what I believe are my passport details, in indiscriminate Thai language.

At one hand, I see wrinkles on the foreheads of my flight’s cabin crew and immigration personnel, and on the other hand, the sheer architectural beauty of the Bangkok airport refuses to wear down my excitement. The schism and ambivalence is uncanny.

After nine splendid days of uninterrupted exotic days of merriment, my passport has caught up with me.

I am enroute Singapore from Bangkok.

Gleefully, as most tourists would, I approach the check-in counter. I am the first one in line. Yes, I am excited. I would meet my college best friend after more than two years for the first time since she moved out of Pakistan after graduation.

As I near the counter, a local airline operator greets me with even a bigger smile. Even in times of peril, the hospitality of the Thai people cannot be missed – they are absolutely delightful.

When I present my passport, I feel there is a problem. Within minutes there are more airline personnel around me. Some are making calls, others checking my flight details. The supervisor seems confused. Her expression worries me.

‘Is there a problem with my passport?’ I ask earnestly – clueless as to what had happened.

‘Please come with me, sir,’ the supervisor requests with utmost politeness.

They ask me how much cash I am carrying.

‘Four hundred US dollars,’ I reveal.

Inquiries came my way. Why are you in Bangkok? Why are you going to Singapore? How long for? Where will you stay? Do you have a double entry visa for the Kingdom of Thailand?

My head starts hurting. I see no reason for this sort of treatment.

After an hour of waiting, with all those behind me in line – possibly buying expensive liquor from the duty free – about to board the plane, the supervisor comes to me and says in a thick Thai accent:

‘If you [want to] travel to Singapore, you must fill [this] form, sir.’

What? What form? Are you kidding me? What did I do?

Before I could make words out of my thoughts, the more perceptive of the crew members says:

‘Indemnity form. From now on, you take full responsibility [of your luggage and yourself]. You don’t hold *** airline responsible if Singapore immigration send[s] you back!’

‘Huh?’

‘We [are] not responsible for you anymore, sir. Okay to board?’

My confusion has reached incomprehensible levels. Apparently, with low-cost airlines, immigration is very strict. Especially if you are Pakistani. You must have 10,000 Singapore dollars in cash to show at immigration – a fact no travel agency in Pakistan is willing to vouch for – a fact I will learn later.

If I do decide to travel, the airline supervisor says, immigration in Bangkok will let me through, but 90% chances are that if I do not meet even one of the basic entry requirements, they will send me back to Bangkok. Once I’m back they will not let me enter Bangkok city, and I will be required to go to my home country immediately because I will have an entry rejected in one of the countries of my transit travel.

Being caught up in the adrenaline pump, I would’ve taken a shot. The problem is my ticket to Karachi is four days later. And my airline says if you are ‘escorted’ back from Singapore, we will be unable to change your ticket to Karachi and you will have to spend four days in a ‘detainee centre’ (euphemism for a prison facility, I assume).

Sign the indemnity form – which says you have been made aware of all possible options and agree to take full responsibility from hereafter – and you can board the plane. Goodluck!

I love my friends and I really want to go ahead with my vacation as planned. But I’m not stupid. I am aware and conscious of my limitations when it comes to international travel. I ask my supervisor, who seems like a warm lady, genuinely concerned for me, what I should do?

Without thinking much she says:

‘Don’t go, you don’t have sufficient amount to travel. You [might] get into a lo’a trouble, sir.’

Turns out my $500 ticket is non-refundable.

Trying to be the man my dad would want me to be, I try hard to hide my tears as I walk away from the counter. I feel violated. I feel I had done nothing wrong.

The supervisor sees me and walks towards me. She says yesterday, a Pakistani passport holder was deported back from Singapore to Bangkok just because he didn’t have the exorbitantly high amount of cash on him during travel.

‘They never ask anyone to show the money. But you [are] the only Pakistani passport in the entire flight. They [will] catch you[‘re] passport and give you trouble very easy.

‘It’s your passport naa..’

Her words make my heart sink deeper.

I just wish for a moment I was not Pakistani. I’m not being unpatriotic. It is the most sincere feeling I’ve had in a while.

***

Club X, Silom Road, Soi 2: I decide I won’t let this ruin my three nights in Bangkok, and what lifts you up more than some drinks in a good club?

I take a cab, change (hip-hop style) and hit a club. At the entrance the bouncer asks me for an ID. I show him my Pakistani NIC card, which has my date of birth printed in English.

He looks and at me and says in a nonchalant manner:

‘Where you from, friend?’

‘Pakistan!’, I say in a pumped up voice, my head moving with the beat of the song – the airport debacle long forgotten in the waves of music’s rhythm.

‘Palestine?’, he screams back.

‘No no, Pakistan!’

‘Oh! Hahah! You carry no bomb right?’ he says, pulling my leg – with the six people behind me in the line laughing.

I let out an embarrassed smile.

‘Don’t blow up my club!’, he screams behind me, as I walk into the club, needing more drinks than I had expected.

**

Aboard flight TG0 507: ‘Please fasten your seat belts.’

I am finally going back home.

Not very excited though. My experiences have given me some bitter memories. And I continue to wonder why?

Lost in my thoughts, from the corner of my eye I see an airhostess and two Pakistani young men engaging, in what seems like an unpleasant exchange of words.

‘Sir please switch your phone off. Please fasten your seatbelt.’

The two men laugh, refusing to obey flight instructions.

Two more members of the cabin crew arrive at the scene and have to physically switch off their cell phones. The crew members look annoyed – and let me add, I have seen many things but a rude or annoyed Thai.

They look at each other bitterly and in a hush-hush way mumble: ‘Pakistani!’

Things start to make sense to me. We are treated in a particular manner because we beget it.

Right then I get one of the saddest realisations of my life: Home is near, but it doesn’t seem right.
As more and more pakis start experiencing these problems, I am sure the Paki elites will start floating ideas like common passport etc. I already see South Asian union sh*t floating around.
Regarding Siachen, I don't think GoI will cede to any of the Paki demands. Precious Indian blood has flown in the process of taking Siachen. GoI just can't give away anything. There is parliament where GoI will be taken to task if such a thing is even proposed.
partha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4555
Joined: 02 Jul 2010 15:25

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by partha »

SSridhar wrote:The unusual interest that China had taken in the 'private religious visit' of Zardari to India and the swiftness with which the US welcomed Man Mohan Singh's acceptance of a visit to Islamabad indicate a concerted action. The US and PRC perhaps have different reasons for a change for the better in India-Pakistan relationship. The US wants to quit Afghanistan on time, less bloodied and more honourably than what appears now. China wants to have the resource-cake of Afghanistan after the US leaves. Both believe that Pakistan is the lynchpin for their goals. Tactically, they cannot allow a disturbed situation on Pakistan's eastern border. I believe that both are putting pressure on Pakistan to restrain PA/LeT/ISI from launching a murderous terrorist attack on India that even a docile India may no longer find it possible not to react to. Additionally, the US is putting pressure on India to sweeten the deal for Pakistan so as to be acceptable to it. Something happened between MMS and Gilani at the Nuclear Security Summit at Seoul that prompted a hurried visit by Zardari to hit the iron when it was still hot. Ajmer Sharif is a conveninet ruse to cover up the summit-level talks.
SSji, there are lot of political problems China is facing internally be it the Bo Xilai incident, power struggle or the Tibet protests. Do you think this could be the reason why China is encouraging India-Pak bhaichara? Considering the internal problems China is facing, it would not want an escalated conflict between India-Pak in its backyard.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25391
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by SSridhar »

shiv wrote:If the US chooses to restrict the Paki army, then other things will move as MMS wants. The US is the wildcard.
Shiv, a much weakened and maligned PA is cleverly hiding behind the Islamists and the jihadis at this point of time. Certainly, the US has played a crucial role in the momentary sidelining of the PA. My worry is that this is misconstrued as PA having been vanquished by the civilians once and for all. Any deal that is arrived at as a result of this wrong conclusion will unravel sooner than later. The Islamists, jihadis and the PA have the power to decisively influence the masses when it comes to such issues as Islam, or India or both. A host of other changes coupled with complete civilian oversight of the PA/intel agencies for a decade or more where the jihadi/PA/ISI nexus is systematically and verifiably dismantled would be the necessary condition for any major rapprochement. Even then, India must be cautious. I do not see these happening. Zardari is inducing India to commit purely for the sake of his retaining power.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25391
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by SSridhar »

partha wrote:SSji, there are lot of political problems China is facing internally be it the Bo Xilai incident, power struggle or the Tibet protests. Do you think this could be the reason why China is encouraging India-Pak bhaichara? Considering the internal problems China is facing, it would not want an escalated conflict between India-Pak in its backyard.
partha, China has had major political upheavels over the last three decades and it has the determination to tackle them successfully even if brutally. These are internal Chinese matters which I do not think have a bearing on India-Pakistan relationship. China's external policy is driven by hegemony and a greed for resources. Afghanistan is a prime candidate for securing both in China's immediate vicinity. In the process, if India's insecurity can also be heightened and if India is denied access to natural resources of the region, that would be even better. China might feel that Pakistan holds the trump card in achieving its twin objectives in Afghanistan.
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4356
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by Rudradev »

SSridhar wrote:The unusual interest that China had taken in the 'private religious visit' of Zardari to India and the swiftness with which the US welcomed Man Mohan Singh's acceptance of a visit to Islamabad indicate a concerted action. The US and PRC perhaps have different reasons for a change for the better in India-Pakistan relationship. The US wants to quit Afghanistan on time, less bloodied and more honourably than what appears now. China wants to have the resource-cake of Afghanistan after the US leaves. Both believe that Pakistan is the lynchpin for their goals. Tactically, they cannot allow a disturbed situation on Pakistan's eastern border. I believe that both are putting pressure on Pakistan to restrain PA/LeT/ISI from launching a murderous terrorist attack on India that even a docile India may no longer find it possible not to react to. Additionally, the US is putting pressure on India to sweeten the deal for Pakistan so as to be acceptable to it. Something happened between MMS and Gilani at the Nuclear Security Summit at Seoul that prompted a hurried visit by Zardari to hit the iron when it was still hot. Ajmer Sharif is a conveninet ruse to cover up the summit-level talks.
SSridhar, I think there is more to it than this.

First of all: ceteris paribus, the PA/ISI will *never* make it conducive for the US to leave Afghanistan. Why? Because the money they stand to collect every day that the US remains in Afghanistan, feeds their economic lifeline. Pakistan's economy would have collapsed by the middle of the last decade given economic trends from 1990 to September 2001. PA/ISI have got a huge reprieve from the funding received, chiefly from the US, since 9/11. But they have not taken advantage of the reprieve to create anything like a functional, sustainable economy at home. Their one and only source of earnings is to blackmail some foreign country with a lot of money by holding its interests hostage. So far it is the US to whom they have consistently played the client state, for this purpose.

So... ceteris paribus the Pakis will do *everything* to prevent the US from leaving. They will threaten to make it a disgraceful, shameful, credibility-destroying exit with all the means at their capability. They will think nothing of doing more 26/11s, or even more 9/11s, to achieve this goal.

What does this mean? It means that for the US to convince the Pakis to let them leave Afghanistan gracefully, *someone* must be made to fill the role of Pakistan's anna-daata. Some other country must be recruited, whose interests can easily be kept hostage by Pakistan to ensure the flow of funds even after the US leaves Afghanistan. Between the US and Pakistan, it has been decided that this role will go to India (world's 3rd largest economy in PPP terms, etc.)

The US has cleverly convinced the MMS GOI to play along with this. They have convinced MMS that showing largesse to Pakistan... agreeing to MFN without reciprocity, expanding trade underwritten exclusively by GOI and Indian businesses, giving regular and generous free gifts to Islamabad in political and financial terms... is India's best bet for making a client state out of Pakistan.

In fact this is nothing but India agreeing to a policy of political Dhimmitude and financial Jizya towards Pakistan... but MMS et al have been convinced that it's the other way round, that the effect will be to bring Pakistan under India's sphere of influence. For India, this is the exact reverse of the Monkey Trap that was foisted on Pakistan and the West in earlier decades: India is the monkey, Pakistan is the jar, and the delusional goal of a "unified SAARC under Indian influence" is the delicacy that India is being tempted to reach for.

This Indian delusion is being encouraged in indirect ways as well. Take the example of oil. India is being pressured by the US to foresake Iran as an oil supplier, and seek its energy resources exclusively from Sunni GCC countries: Saudi oil, Qatari gas. India will pay the GCC countries hard cash for this energy. India will use this energy to fuel its industry, and the hard labour of Indian workers will create wealth in the Indian economy. This wealth, in turn, will be used to underwrite Pakistan (in the name of expanding trade for "peace dividends" which will never come.)

In effect, India will become the value-adding conduit whereby Saudi Arabia, instead of spending its own money to underwrite Pakistan, will transfer oil to India (for hard cash)... and the wealth created in India from this oil will go as Jizya to feed Pakistan's coffers in perpetuity. India will effectively take the place of the United States as a hydrocarbon-dependent economy that ends up financing the ghazis.

Meanwhile the MMS GOI will remain convinced that everything they are doing is increasing India's "soft power" and economic influence over Pakistan. They will be happy to make any concessions on Kashmir, because after all, the concessions are being made to a country which they view as a potential "client state" for India.

Meanwhile, the metaphorical gun to India's head, which ensures that the "value-adding conduit" stays open, will be PA/ISI's ability to turn the terror tap on and off at will. The increasing successes of the Karachi project in opening cells in all parts of India, staffed by Muslim terrorists of Indian origin, will consolidate the extent of PA/ISI control over this tap... an inescapable consequence of the nature of electoral politics in India.

Only when assured of such a situation will the PA/ISI agree to create conditions that are conducive for the US to depart Afghanistan with H&D intact. It will suit the Americans very well too... they will have much less of a burden to bear in maintaining a lifeline for the Paki coffers, when that role has been passed on to India.

The US and West want a new sort of colonization regime to prevail over India. They want India to provide a large consumer market for their businesses and to serve as a pool of cheap, skilled labour to maximize their profits. What they do not want is for India to become militarily or politically successful at establishing any sort of hegemony over its near abroad.

All these purposes will be served by the Monkey Trap of making MMS GOI think it is "expanding influence over Pakistan via trade", while in fact it is paying Jizya to Pakistan in the US' stead.

The Chinese game is somewhat different. They have shown time and again that for many reasons, they do not want to replace the USA as Pakistan's anna-daata. They are quite happy to have India play this role, because they know that the net benefits to India will be zero... and that Pakistan will still remain willing to do Beijing's bidding even if it is Delhi which is financing Islamabad's lifeline. The Chinese do not want to get into the trap that the Americans have found themselves in for the last 11 years.

However, compared the US, the Chinese have a substantial stake in the survival of the Pakistani state... not quite as much as India, but far more than any western country. The US would be happy to move out of Afghanistan with H&D intact, and never look in Pakistan's direction again. For China the stakes are much more immediate. One of the things that will happen if Pakistan collapses is that there will be no state authority to prevent an indefinite number of ghazis from traveling due north, into Xinjiang. Some of the shrapnel released by the PA/ISI suicide-bomb will embed itself in China's flesh as well.

India's best bet may be to influence events in such a way that China's interests come more into alignment with India's (genuine) interests, vis-a-vis Pakistan. We will never, ever convince the West to align its interests with ours, vis-a-vis Pakistan: if even 9/11 and the ten years of double-crossing ISAF could not achieve this, nothing ever will. Right now we are putting ourselves in an even worse position, by allowing ourselves to be convinced that it is in India's best interest to align with Western interests regarding Pakistan. As I have described above, this is a Monkey Trap for India... a road leading to self-perpetuating Dhimmitude in financial and political terms.

On the other hand, our fellow potential victims of the PA/ISI suicide bomb... Iran, CARs, Russia and China... definitely have an incentive to seek the capping and containment (rather than perpetual bribery) of Pakistan. As long as India, Russia, China and Iran can develop a sufficient degree of trust between themselves to agree on the common ground view that Pakistan will always be more of a threat than an opportunity... we can collectively avoid the Monkey Trap that the West has set for us.
Last edited by Rudradev on 13 Apr 2012 12:09, edited 3 times in total.
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15178
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by Suraj »

How on earth does China intend to control Afghanistan ? That place has been the graveyard of the British, Russians and Americans. I'd be happy to see the Chinese get bogged down there and then subsequently face discontent from the rear when Xinjiang, Kashgar etc erupt against the Han. The Chinese are no more or less ruthless than the Soviets were.
harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by harbans »

My confusion has reached incomprehensible levels. Apparently, with low-cost airlines, immigration is very strict. Especially if you are Pakistani. You must have 10,000 Singapore dollars in cash to show at immigration – a fact no travel agency in Pakistan is willing to vouch for – a fact I will learn later.
Contrast that with Indians, i made 2 trips to Singapore and one to Indonesia (there Ummah brothers) last fortnight. No one asked me how much money i was carrying or where i was staying. Entry was a breeze. Even Indonesia just a 10 USD VOA (Paki's require prior Visa, no VOA for them here too), clear in less than 10 minutes. They only asked me if i was on business, which i said no..just visiting. In Indonesia i met a few people who i was pleasantly surprised talked about their Hindu linkages, they say there culture was originally Hindu and there was some pride in their statements. And this was not Bali. I guess if one follows Terror as a state policy, it has some disadvantages. 15 years ago SE Asia was quite inhospitable to Indians. I have seen the changes in the last decades. Indians are finding greater respect and their professional attitudes are getting more respect. Paki's have a long way to go. I doubt their hatred and scheming minds will allow them respect elsewhere. It's to India's benefit if we too keep our distance from these retarded uncouths.
rajkumar
BRFite
Posts: 480
Joined: 22 Sep 2000 11:31
Location: London U.K
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by rajkumar »

Rudradev wrote:........ we can collectively avoid the Monkey Trap that the West has set for us.
Outstanding post
harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by harbans »

Excellent Post Rudra Ji! The part of the Monkey trap is just that and the Pappi Jhappi crowd is walking into it. Yesterday on TV there was a loud mouthed arrogant Paki giving funda's on INdian soil and i just couldn't stand it and changed channels. I dislike our eagerness in that there are no vicible ground changes in Paki thinking. The best we can do is not to start being liberal with Visa's and stuff. Throw them a lifeline or two only if some changes at the core are made visible.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25391
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by SSridhar »

Suraj wrote:How on earth does China intend to control Afghanistan ? That place has been the graveyard of the British, Russians and Americans. I'd be happy to see the Chinese get bogged down there and then subsequently face discontent from the rear when Xinjiang, Kashgar etc erupt against the Han. The Chinese are no more or less ruthless than the Soviets were.
Suraj, PRC does not want to control Afghanistan. They simply want to have access to the exploitation of Afghan resources. They may believe that the Taliban would facilitate the Chinese greed through blandishments with the help of the Pakistani friends. The Chinese might also believe that keeping Pakhtuns in power in Afghanistan would enable Pakistan to confine jihadi Islamism within the Afghan borders and PA would keep their promise to PRC of going after the Uyghurs within Pakistan.
partha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4555
Joined: 02 Jul 2010 15:25

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by partha »

Suraj wrote:How on earth does China intend to control Afghanistan ? That place has been the graveyard of the British, Russians and Americans. I'd be happy to see the Chinese get bogged down there and then subsequently face discontent from the rear when Xinjiang, Kashgar etc erupt against the Han. The Chinese are no more or less ruthless than the Soviets were.
China doesn't really have to send army to control Afghanistan, no? They can do it through their proxy Pakistan which in turn could control Afghanistan through its proxy Taliban.
partha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4555
Joined: 02 Jul 2010 15:25

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by partha »

Massive equal-equal:

http://dawn.com/2012/04/11/zardaris-ind ... -too-late/

specially the point on how armies of both India and Pakistan are hounding the ruling parties. hehe..doesn't even know the basic structure of governance in India. He thinks India works like Pakistan.
Yogi_G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2450
Joined: 21 Nov 2008 04:10
Location: Punya Bhoomi -- Jambu Dweepam

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by Yogi_G »

partha wrote:
Suraj wrote:How on earth does China intend to control Afghanistan ? That place has been the graveyard of the British, Russians and Americans. I'd be happy to see the Chinese get bogged down there and then subsequently face discontent from the rear when Xinjiang, Kashgar etc erupt against the Han. The Chinese are no more or less ruthless than the Soviets were.
China doesn't really have to send army to control Afghanistan, no? They can do it through their proxy Pakistan which in turn could control Afghanistan through its proxy Taliban.
That doesn't come cheap, the PA will want to be paid for this and as we have seen China's purse strings are rather tightly naught when it comes to Pakistan.
shyamd
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7100
Joined: 08 Aug 2006 18:43

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by shyamd »

Rudradev ji, the idea is that the trade will get to a point that no party will want to break the agreement. That is the aim. Of course we know that they won't change their minds. Nations have 2 choices cooperation or conflict.

The aim with LoC was to make it irrelevant and no one will claim sovereignty until both sides feel comfortable to do so in about x years, both sides promise not to break the mutually beneficial agreement.

This doesn't mean we are going to drop our guard or reduce defence. This is the new strategy being recommended everywhere. I think the origins of this theory goes back to the Christian outposts of Israel, Sidon etc and the Mongols/mamluk's peace was brought between the 2 as both had a mutually beneficial trade agreement. But it did come to an end once te Europeans couldn't provide support to the outposts due to their internal issues.

So what happens if pak doesn't play ball?
We are in conflict, sanctions will have a bigger effect on them.
West is happy with us and we'll get good Trade deals with the GCC, EU and US. EU already links the FTA with Kashmir and Pak relations.

We don't have much to lose
nvishal
BRFite
Posts: 992
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 18:03

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by nvishal »

@SSridhar, CC brihaspati CC shiv

Firstly, I don't share this view that pakistan is headed for destruction. Not until the US and china lift the protectorate status they have over pakistan. I don't think that terms like "collapse", "failed state" or "destruction" are correct to describe the internal situation of pakistan.

Secondly, to understand pakistan better, you need to buy into this premise that the high caste(the elite, military generals etc) are not radicals. Instead, think of them as strategists. They are the rulers. And these rulers want authority over the tanzims. They excert their powers to control these tanzims. They let the tanzims radicalize the country side(non-elite regions). When a few tanzims rebel against the high power, they are carpet bombed.

Thirdly, the tanzims(mainly balochi and pashtun) do not have a equal equal capability wrt to the high caste. This has created a master and slave situation. If this deficit is bridged, the india v/s pakistan angle will become pak high caste v/s tanzim equation. Get it?

fourthly, both US and china wants the tanzims to remain under pak high caste control. This agreement works for the benefit of all three countries(US/china/pak) but to the detriment of india. GoI would like the tanzims to get the "capability" to charge punjab and sindh. This equal equal dual(pak v/s tanzims) is supposed to replace the india v/s pak dual. The later dual has sustained for more than 50 years.

The main challenge for india is to get the world(mainly US and china) to agree on an "east durrand line v/s west durrand line" dual. If they reach an agreement(investment - the silk route can touch maharashtra coast and enter iran from there), it means powering up west durrand line and a possible division of pakistan. This is the alternative(the juggad), as opposed to a war between india, pak and china.
Last edited by nvishal on 13 Apr 2012 14:22, edited 2 times in total.
Altair
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2620
Joined: 30 Dec 2009 12:51
Location: Hovering over Pak Airspace in AWACS

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by Altair »

Pakistanis cannot speak English
London: Britain has decided to make it tough for Pakistani students to step on English soil, following a pilot scheme that found as many as four in ten applicants may be bogus.

British Home Office figures have revealed that thousands of student visa applicants cannot speak English, despite claiming that they want to study here, the Daily Mail reported.
Home Secretary Theresa May has now decreed that anyone wanting to come to study in Britain from Pakistan must be interviewed by border agency officials before a visa is granted.
Presently, if paper applications raise suspicions, applicants may be interviewed in their home country. Of these, around 20 percent are rejected. But a recent pilot scheme in which every applicant was required to have a face-to-face interview found that up to 43 percent should be rejected.

A senior Whitehall source said that by far the biggest reason for them being turned down was poor English language skills.

"Britain is open for business to the best and brightest. But the message to bogus students is clear - you will be found out and you will be stopped from coming," said the source.

Last month, a report by the National Audit Office found that a flawed immigration crackdown may have allowed up to 50,000 bogus students into Britain.
This is a H&D nightmare for Pakis! AoA. Lets Bomb Britain!
Mahendra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4416
Joined: 11 Aug 2007 17:20
Location: Chronicling Bakistan's Tryst with Dysentery

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by Mahendra »

Add P to English and all 180 million Bakis will qualify to immigrate to Bartania
Mahendra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4416
Joined: 11 Aug 2007 17:20
Location: Chronicling Bakistan's Tryst with Dysentery

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by Mahendra »

I heard Noko's Nodong turned limp instead of launching. Wonder how many Packee Jarnail's maalish moment has been taken away.
anupmisra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9203
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 04:16
Location: New York

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by anupmisra »

partha wrote:Letters from abroad: Shame on you, you are Pakistani
my passport has caught up with me...Especially if you are Pakistani...I feel I had done nothing wrong...I just wish for a moment I was not Pakistani...We are treated in a particular manner because we beget it.
This paki world traveler shouldn't blame himself for the deep doodoo he is in. He should blame his grandfather for making that long trek. Besides, good news (or bad news, depending on who you are) comes in twos. This one is from their ummah brothers. April must be "be fair to a pa'astani" month. Kuwait visa restrictions for Pakistanis.
THERE is a total ban on all types of visas for Pakistanis in Kuwait.
We have been authors of our own misfortune. :((
There was a time when Pakistanis commanded a certain amount of respect.
Yeah, when?
Rangudu
BRFite
Posts: 1751
Joined: 03 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by Rangudu »

Anujan wrote:Please feel free :mrgreen:
Please also ask The fourth cousin for a no objekshun certificate :D
anupmisra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9203
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 04:16
Location: New York

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by anupmisra »

Hold your "face palms", "LOLs", "LMAOs" and "Bawling Emoticons" until you have read this gem to the end. Inadequate sanitation costs Pakistan Rs.343.7 bln. That's $ 5.7 billion or 3.9 per cent of the country’s GDP for you, the non-madrassa math types.
The largest share of losses is due to premature mortality and other-related impacts of poor sanitation being Rs.299.6 billion ($ 4.9 bln) amounting to 87.2 per cent of the total economic cost. This includes costs related to premature mortality, productivity loss due to illness and cost of treatment.
The water related economic cost is estimated as Rs.16 billion ($262.7 million) which includes costs related to bottle water, household treatment and pipe water cost due to sanitation.
welfare costs of Rs.22.8 billion ($374.4 million) which includes time loss for defecating in the region.
In Pakistan, diarrhea is the largest contributor to health related economic impacts
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25391
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by SSridhar »

Altair wrote:Pakistanis cannot speak English

This is a H&D nightmare for Pakis! AoA. Lets Bomb Britain!
Something they have been doing for some time now, I suppose. And, will continue to do, for sure.
CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6865
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by CRamS »

Sorry if this was posted earlier: How US converted Zardari's private visit to India into an official one. So US still has not abandoned its strategy that India must sold down the Indus river to keep its H&D intact ans run from AfPak. What is sad though are the willing collaborators in Delhi.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25391
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Pakistan & destruction

Post by SSridhar »

nvishal,

I do not think that I ever said that Pakistan was headed for destruction. This is what I said: "I would say that dissolution of Pakistan would be by its own choice (not India's); India might play a role as it did in 1971 but the decision would have been made by Pakistan itself to dissolve (again, as it did in East Pakistan). If it wants to 'stay', it would be because of India. " Having said that, one needs to ponder as well whether any country that is as reckless as Pakistan, or as visionless as Pakistan, or as obsessed about taking on a neighbour about 10 times larger for 65 years that a major part of its budget goes towards military while subsisting hand-to-mouth at the charity of its friends, can be headed anywhere other than self-destruction especially when it is beset with many a serious internal problems as well. When a nation is spoken of in the same breath as Somalia, Mali, Sudan et al and that nation calls itself as a nuclear-weapons country, the question naturally would be how it failed.
Secondly, to understand pakistan better, you need to buy into this premise that the high caste(the elite, military generals etc) are not radicals. Instead, think of them as strategists. They are the rulers. And these rulers want authority over the tanzims. They excert their powers to control these tanzims. They let the tanzims radicalize the country side(non-elite regions). When a few tanzims rebel against the high power, they are carpet bombed.
I would rather talk about high-church and low-church in Pakistan. The high-church are the purest of the pure, namely Salafi/Wahhabi/Deobandi/Ahl-e-Hadith islamists and jihadis. The high-church may have some well-suited and booted Generals like Gul or Beg but they are being used temporarily and will meet the same fate as Col. Imam or Sqn. Ldr. Khwaja when no longer needed. The high-church is converting the music-dance-shrine loving low-church through various means all over the country. That is why, increasingly the PA is radicalized at all levels. When somebody like a high-church Fazl-ur-Rehman can become a target for elimination by the higher-church, the PA Generals stand no chance. I know of no tanzeem being ever carpet-bombed by the PA. It is my belief that the high-church would sooner than later subsume the PA. 'A few stirred up Muslims' is how Zbignew Brzezinski referred to the jihadis. The radicalization of the country-side, hoping it would not spread anywhere else, is a similar project. We have seen Laal Masjid right in the centre of Islamabad, close to Aabpara. The incidents of Laal Masjid led to a murderous attack on the state for years and the country as a whole sided with the jihadis.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by brihaspati »

nvishal wrote:@SSridhar, CC brihaspati CC shiv

Firstly, I don't share this view that pakistan is headed for destruction. Not until the US and china lift the protectorate status they have over pakistan. I don't think that terms like "collapse", "failed state" or "destruction" are correct to describe the internal situation of pakistan.
I have never suggested that Pak will implode on its own. In fact to the contrary, on detailed explorations about Islam majority political entities/states embedded or surrounded [locally or in the global context] by non-Muslim societies, what stands out is the survival mechanism distilled within the theological network that holds Islamic societies together as viable political entities.

As long as the Paki theological networks survive, the political viability of the Paki state - in whatever name or form - stays intact.

However it will destroy itself, if the dawaist networks are destroyed. The Paki elite realize this, and everything that they have done, forced to or willingly, have been based on this realization, which in turn has increased the strength of the Dawaists as the actual state and not the gov or even TSPA/ISI as the real state.
Secondly, to understand pakistan better, you need to buy into this premise that the high caste(the elite, military generals etc) are not radicals. Instead, think of them as strategists. They are the rulers. And these rulers want authority over the tanzims. They excert their powers to control these tanzims. They let the tanzims radicalize the country side(non-elite regions). When a few tanzims rebel against the high power, they are carpet bombed.
Agreed. My point in my previous post was that - this sense of having control over the jihadi factions has diluted. In complementary proportion the sense of independence of the jiahdis have increased. The rulers want to regain their sense of control over the the jihadis - whose internal fight is now aimed at jockeying for the strongest position to claim state power once the current regime weakens. Both sides might be working on panic, illusion and delusion - probably fostered by both their own internal as well as external secret services.

The blindfolded and paranoid world of the secret services can lead to self-delusional dogmatic or doctrinal world-views which an otherwise rational and normal connection to society and politics would have cancelled out. We have seen such devastating mood swings even in our own desi "security-expert" brigade.
Thirdly, the tanzims(mainly balochi and pashtun) do not have a equal equal capability wrt to the high caste. This has created a master and slave situation. If this deficit is bridged, the india v/s pakistan angle will become pak high caste v/s tanzim equation. Get it?

fourthly, both US and china wants the tanzims to remain under pak high caste control. This agreement works for the benefit of all three countries(US/china/pak) but to the detriment of india. GoI would like the tanzims to get the "capability" to charge punjab and sindh. This equal equal dual(pak v/s tanzims) is supposed to replace the india v/s pak dual. The later dual has sustained for more than 50 years.
Agreed, but as I had suggested before - this is how these main players view it. A lot in that view is coloured by ideological preconceptions and academic or so-called expert influences - which in turn are guided by wishful and sometimes unrealistic projections by people who have happened to become "important" but without any real and independent opportunity to study Islamic dynamics, especially to the west of India - closely.
The main challenge for india is to get the world(mainly US and china) to agree on an "east durrand line v/s west durrand line" dual. If they reach an agreement(investment - the silk route can touch maharashtra coast and enter iran from there), it means powering up west durrand line and a possible division of pakistan. This is the alternative(the juggad), as opposed to a war between india, pak and china.
This is not going to happen. Because as long as the undivided J&K area remains open to international manipulation and access, none of the entities you mention, other than India has any advantage or need to put a divider somewhere west of Indus.

The key to the whole problem is POK and the part ceded to China. If onlee the border of India reached to the hills across the narrow entrance to KV up to Afghanistan - all nakhra would have been finished. If I was in IG's place, I would have staked even BD independence on gaining this small bit of territory. That would have finished off all subsequent Paki shenanigans. The capture of that neck jeopardizes all the value that China, USA or UK gives to slumabad. Or for that matter the reasons, Afghanistan, Russia, Iran and other CAR countries are forced to give to slumabad.

When that territory come sto India, it closes off Chinese value in maintaining Sinkiang, and they will be forced back to a defensive position on that sector. It immediately provides incentive to Afghan regimes to cooperate with India. Russia and Iran have alternative routes to India and for Russia therefore through to IOR. India may even be able to convince the successor regime in China that will come after the fall of the CPC in roughly 15-20 years to do business regularly through and independent Tibet - both of which will have strong reasons to look south and west, and therefore through India.

USA/UK will only then be forced to support a east/west durrand as you propose. That will be then their defensive retreat and consolidation line as flanking guard on the Gulf under the changed geo-strategic equations.
kenop
BRFite
Posts: 1335
Joined: 01 Jun 2009 07:28

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by kenop »

Could this be a high profile test case for visa liberalization?
Former Pakistan all-rounder Azhar Mahmood is still awaiting an Indian visa to play for Kings XI Punjab in the Indian Premier League (IPL).
Mahmood is the only player representing Pakistan in this season of the IPL.
Oh no.. Isn't he not-pukistani?
Let us see if there is any noise from pukistan.
saip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4392
Joined: 17 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by saip »

Mahendra wrote:Add P to English and all 180 million Bakis will qualify to immigrate to Bartania

Get your facts right. There are over 197 million pakis now. By giving correct figures you can see their per capita GDP is less than 900 not over a 1000 like the pakis would like to claim.
pgbhat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4172
Joined: 16 Dec 2008 21:47
Location: Hayden's Ferry

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by pgbhat »

partha wrote: As more and more pakis start experiencing these problems, I am sure the Paki elites will start floating ideas like common passport etc. I already see South Asian union sh*t floating around.
Regarding Siachen, I don't think GoI will cede to any of the Paki demands. Precious Indian blood has flown in the process of taking Siachen. GoI just can't give away anything. There is parliament where GoI will be taken to task if such a thing is even proposed.
One of the kamments
Watch Zaid Hamid videos if u r feeling depressed.
:lol:
abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

nvishal wrote: Secondly, to understand pakistan better, you need to buy into this premise that the high caste(the elite, military generals etc) are not radicals. Instead, think of them as strategists. They are the rulers. And these rulers want authority over the tanzims. They excert their powers to control these tanzims. They let the tanzims radicalize the country side(non-elite regions). When a few tanzims rebel against the high power, they are carpet bombed.
So Javed Nasir was not a radical? Since his time, many ISI officials have started following radical Islam (see Seve Coll's book). Why did Gen Beg give nuclear technology to Iran?

And if they are really strategists then allowing Taliban/AQ to plan/execute 9/11 was a really bad strategy.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by shiv »

Rudradev wrote:
The US has cleverly convinced the MMS GOI to play along with this. They have convinced MMS that showing largesse to Pakistan... agreeing to MFN without reciprocity, expanding trade underwritten exclusively by GOI and Indian businesses, giving regular and generous free gifts to Islamabad in political and financial terms... is India's best bet for making a client state out of Pakistan.

In fact this is nothing but India agreeing to a policy of political Dhimmitude and financial Jizya towards Pakistan... but MMS et al have been convinced that it's the other way round, that the effect will be to bring Pakistan under India's sphere of influence. For India, this is the exact reverse of the Monkey Trap that was foisted on Pakistan and the West in earlier decades: India is the monkey, Pakistan is the jar, and the delusional goal of a "unified SAARC under Indian influence" is the delicacy that India is being tempted to reach for.

This Indian delusion is being encouraged in indirect ways as well. Take the example of oil. India is being pressured by the US to foresake Iran as an oil supplier, and seek its energy resources exclusively from Sunni GCC countries: Saudi oil, Qatari gas. India will pay the GCC countries hard cash for this energy. India will use this energy to fuel its industry, and the hard labour of Indian workers will create wealth in the Indian economy. This wealth, in turn, will be used to underwrite Pakistan (in the name of expanding trade for "peace dividends" which will never come.)

In effect, India will become the value-adding conduit whereby Saudi Arabia, instead of spending its own money to underwrite Pakistan, will transfer oil to India (for hard cash)... and the wealth created in India from this oil will go as Jizya to feed Pakistan's coffers in perpetuity. India will effectively take the place of the United States as a hydrocarbon-dependent economy that ends up financing the ghazis.

Meanwhile the MMS GOI will remain convinced that everything they are doing is increasing India's "soft power" and economic influence over Pakistan. They will be happy to make any concessions on Kashmir, because after all, the concessions are being made to a country which they view as a potential "client state" for India.

Meanwhile, the metaphorical gun to India's head, which ensures that the "value-adding conduit" stays open, will be PA/ISI's ability to turn the terror tap on and off at will. The increasing successes of the Karachi project in opening cells in all parts of India, staffed by Muslim terrorists of Indian origin, will consolidate the extent of PA/ISI control over this tap... an inescapable consequence of the nature of electoral politics in India.

Only when assured of such a situation will the PA/ISI agree to create conditions that are conducive for the US to depart Afghanistan with H&D intact. It will suit the Americans very well too... they will have much less of a burden to bear in maintaining a lifeline for the Paki coffers, when that role has been passed on to India.
Interesting and original take on the situation. Could well be true. I had to Google for ceteris paribus - I thought you were writing Tamil for "look at the bus - Par-uh-bus" :D

But there is a time gap between para 1 and the last para which should allow India to make an assessment if this is what is happening. Having made that assessment - I have no idea what India might do. Send a dossier maybe? LOL
anchal
BRFite
Posts: 227
Joined: 01 Aug 2009 16:41

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by anchal »

Azhar Mahmood graces the Queendom. So guess should not be a problem
Gus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8220
Joined: 07 May 2005 02:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by Gus »

i don't understand why azhar mahmood is picked in the first place. didn't he retire, like 10 years ago..
Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3727
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by Vipul »

SSridhar wrote: sum, I believe that progress in Track-II talks in the last two years has gone far beyond a mere visa liberalization issue. Man Mohan Singh's promise to visit Pakistan when a major development happens, is pointer to the progress being made. The already taken decisions are only being announced incrementally by both sides to prepare the ground for a more significant announcement in due course of time. The US has immediately welcomed Man Mohan Singh's acceptance of the Zardari invitation. Both PPP and INC need some dramatic breakthrough that they can sell to their people to retrieve the fast-slipping ground under their feet. PPP sees the current weakness of the PA as an opportune time to have some deals with India without its seal of approval. As always demanded by Pakistan (and accepted by India), the larger country must be very generous. As always, Pakistan will simply dangle some carrots for the future while India will concede. I certainly expect some bombshell within the next six months.
I am very worried what GOI/Mickey Mouse Singh is upto.
What is the GOI doing in trusting these Track-II characters? All the RAPE Track -II walas give the right soundbytes when talking to foreign/indian correspondents (peace and bhaichara bullcrap) but are their usual Mughal lords and have a very condescending and knowing attitude when talking on various pakistani current affair channels about India. Part of their confidence seems to come from knowing the Indian proclivity in scoring self-goals or worse (rightfully so) in trusting their ability to be a snake oil salesmen.The RAPES must be wondering what did they do right to be able to deal with such gullible characters time and again.
Last edited by Vipul on 13 Apr 2012 23:00, edited 1 time in total.
Yogi_G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2450
Joined: 21 Nov 2008 04:10
Location: Punya Bhoomi -- Jambu Dweepam

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by Yogi_G »

anupmisra wrote: This one is from their ummah brothers. April must be "be fair to a pa'astani" month. Kuwait visa restrictions for Pakistanis.
This action is not representative of Kuwaiti people who are our blood brothers in the Ummah. It is hight time we gave an ultimatum for action to the Kuwaiti government
:rotfl: :rotfl:
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21234
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by Prem »

IMHO, Indian policy is to buy the time and keep the economic growth uninteruppted for at least another decade. Poaqwormhome will deteriorate and fall in chaos regardless of any initiative between us and them.
MMS sugar in Poaqroots will kill their Foon-Faan. It is too early to understand and feel the impact of new Sindhi awakening alongside Balochs and no one knows when which side Pushtun nationalism turn. In Another 5 years , we will know which bird eats the Poaqworm.
Anujan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7903
Joined: 27 May 2007 03:55

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by Anujan »

There is speculation that the pakis were doing naughty naughty things with explosives on the nubra river before the avalanche came down and gave them all their 72.
Anujan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7903
Joined: 27 May 2007 03:55

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Post by Anujan »

Just like how the Pakis have to sign a declaration that Ahmedis are not Muslims to get their passports, we could have a declaration that pakis have to sign to get a visa. Creative suggestions are welcome.
Post Reply