Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

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VikramS
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by VikramS »

Sushupti wrote:
Chandrashekhar aazad had built a network across cow belt. Two members (husband and wife doing Kashi vas) of this network were alive as late as 1996. Husband as well wife were from Zamindar family. Aazad would come and stay at the residence of the wife (she used to be girl in her late teens than), When police found it, she was forced to brutal torture damaging her uterus. She was engazed to her now husband when this incident took place. Her would be husband didn't break the engagement standing upto social pressue and fully aware of the fact that he will never become a father.

Impressed with my "Seva" (like getting them things from govt Ration shop etc, which i did totally due to humanity considerations given their old age) they slowly opened to me. As per them, after Alfred park encounter, his people were of unanimous opinion about who informed police.

You should publish this information.

There is no reason why 1st hand information should be lost.

Now that they are gone, please use the names of the couple. They left no one behind who could be concerned.
Sushupti
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Sushupti »

ravi_g wrote:Sushupti ji, you are underestimating the sheer viciousness of a Kongi. The fact that Kongis could not become leaders of the majority rankles them no ends. You really cannot get down to their level. The suggestion by you is understandable and valid but I have tried something else along these lines and while people do respond but these Kongis know how to deflect issues. Its either Hinduism or Britishers that are blamed and they try to project themselves as the Messiah.

Would be willing to share experiences in time.

Also this attack on governance being highlighted by Hari Seldon ji is actually something these guys find very difficult to get out of. After all these guys have been running the country for more then half a century.

One more thing besides the Governance track record is the highlighting of Tushtikaran politics. The left right jabs is what gets them down better.

JMHT
.
I know all that sir. But situation was much more grim in early 80s. Soviet union, communist in India at their peak with complete domination of intellectual and social scene. "Peacefulls" openly shouting "Pakistan Zindabad" after India lose the match. Every riot where Cons will allow Ms to go for kill and then bring police when retaliation starts. Very frustrating situation. And then some one comes out with an idea of RJM. It took 16 year for dynasty to regain the power that too with the help of you know whom in BJP.

What are we supposed to do sit and wait for our death?.
Last edited by Sushupti on 22 Jan 2013 15:33, edited 2 times in total.
Sanku
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Sanku »

Sushupti wrote: Impressed with my "Seva" (like getting them things from govt Ration shop etc, which i did totally due to humanity considerations given their old age) they slowly opened to me. As per them, after Alfred park encounter, his people were of unanimous opinion about who informed police.
This information is well known among most people who were with congress in that area at that time. B-ji keeps alluding to it on the forum from time to time.

No one would believe it if you mentioned it in general public then, and the Congressmen were aware but "helpless" to do anything about it.

Congress was not a Nehruvian party always, there were more "communal" elements in the original INC than in BJP now. Kya ukhad liye?
Gus
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Gus »

we can understand this from shinde's blatherings..

they really have got nothing even remotely meaningful to stick this guy with..
member_20317
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by member_20317 »

An opinion is not really necessary. The contiguity of facts is clear enough an indicator.

But there is one thing that struck me. I tried these things in a one on one situation. Never did that in an information bombardment manner. Somebody did suggest the third party info war. A poster war can be done. Ah the perils of working alone. Why did the obvious not occur to me earlier.
Sushupti
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Sushupti »

Sanku wrote:
Sushupti wrote: Impressed with my "Seva" (like getting them things from govt Ration shop etc, which i did totally due to humanity considerations given their old age) they slowly opened to me. As per them, after Alfred park encounter, his people were of unanimous opinion about who informed police.
This information is well known among most people who were with congress in that area at that time. B-ji keeps alluding to it on the forum from time to time.

No one would believe it if you mentioned it in general public then, and the Congressmen were aware but "helpless" to do anything about it.

Congress was not a Nehruvian party always, there were more "communal" elements in the original INC than in BJP now. Kya ukhad liye?
You should ask this question to Atal Ji. He could have released 1962 debacle report. Which was non-classified during 1999-2004. Windbag Ji ne kyon nahin kuch Ukhada?. Real issue is why BJP don't go aggressive against dynasty?
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RajeshA »

VikramS wrote:RajeshA:

I wonder how many in India are ready to listen to the extreme truth.

It is too earth-shattering and strikes at the very world-view of a large number of Indians..
VikramS ji,

The Extreme Truth is based on many simple facts.

e.g. Whose direction would the Kangressiya obey, when the Phoren Govt. takes care of his "Loot ka Maal" in "Phoren Tijori", and Phoren Govt. thus knows all the Hisaab-Kitab of his Loot?

e.g. Why does Kangressiya support Paki prapagaandaa, which says Hindu are Terrorists?

e.g. Why are Italian Marines living comfortably in Italian Embassy after killing poor Indian fishermen?

etc. etc. etc.

Because Kangressiya are only Local Managers of Phoren Sarkaars!

One needs to keep repeating that they are only "Local Managers of Phoren Sarkaars" ad infinitum. Throw so much mud at them that no amount of sarkari media can wash them clean. It is a slur which they cannot throw back at BJP. It is a slur which manages to skip the Hindu-Muslim, the secular vs. non-secular controversy. It is a slur which creates the biggest gulf between the Kaangressiya Neta and the People. If some Neta is Kaangressiya, he is per definition "Not of the People"!

Yahan tak ke Nehru Hamara Chacha kum, aur Goron ka Chamcha zyaada tha! Right?

The whole campaign should go vernacular!
Last edited by RajeshA on 22 Jan 2013 16:20, edited 1 time in total.
Sanku
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Sanku »

Sushupti wrote: You should ask this question to Atal Ji. He could have released 1962 debacle report. Which was non-classified during 1999-2004. Windbag Ji ne kyon nahin kuch Ukhada?. Real issue is why BJP don't go aggressive against dynasty?
What Patel could not do, you want ABV to do after 40 years? You dont understand, the cancer is too deep, it wont help.

What ABV did is what Hari-ji said, he tried to change the game fundamentally, he tried to destroy the foundation of the Nehru system by dismantling the govt machinery which fed the parasites by disinvestment of PSUs, MM Joshi tried to change the history books. They tried to remove the whole mai-baap-sarkar of congress which works by keeping people poor and controlling who gets the scraps.

They went for the kill, not of the personality, which is trivial, but of the SYSTEM.


They succeeded to an extent, the BRFites are living proof, one more term (which they fully expected) and the name of Nehru would be decimated.

Only 5 more years were needed.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Arjun »

RajeshA wrote:One needs to keep repeating that they are only "Local Managers of Phoren Sarkaars" ad infinitum. Throw so much mud at them that no amount of sarkari media can wash them clean. It is a slur which they cannot throw back at BJP. It is a slur which manages to skip the Hindu-Muslim, the secular vs. non-secular controversy. It is a slur which creates the biggest gulf between the Kaangressiya Neta and the People. If some Neta is Kaangressiya, he is per definition "Not of the People"!
Rajesh ji, I think for this to work...it would need to come from credible sources - personalities that the common man would ordinarily trust. The issue is who are these folks out there and if / how they can become passionate enough to add their voice.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RajeshA »

Arjun ji,

I can't say how much penetration BRFites have within the vernacular press, at the grassroots level, in panchayats, etc.

If BJP wants to hop on on to this "campaign", BJP certainly must be having this presence. They can outsource it to lower functionaries.

However BRFites must be able to make a splash in the New Social Media, Blogs, Online Newspaper Comment sections, Forums, etc. The idea must be to get this thing to go viral, and that the vernacular press and grassroots activists pick it up as well.

In itself it is a very simple message "Local Managers of Phoren Sarkaars"! Anybody can remember these words, and basically these five simple words transmit a huge part of the underlying "Extreme Truth".

The message needs to be compact, simple and hard-hitting.
RajeshA
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RajeshA »

Arjun ji,

BTW, one reason why the "Arab Spring" really worked was because many of the regimes were considered to be puppets of Amreeka, so USA thought how about bringing in Islamists, who have had an anti-American propaganda bent, and thus can be sold to the Arab Street easily, but whom America would still be able to control and manage in the background, and so one sees Islamic faces in Tunisia, Egypt, etc, and the Social Media played an important role in this "managed revolution".

The point is that the Arabs were not fond of the idea that their governments were puppets of Phoren Sarkaars, and so they took to the streets. Nobody really wants to be ruled by "Phoren Sarkaars" directly or by proxy.

In India, we are not even aware that UPA-2 is working for Phoren Sarkaars, even though we are surprised all the time by the behavior of the government. Just check the behavior and utterings of Shri Manmohan Singh, Shri Salman Khurshid, Shri Sushilkumar Shinde, etc. The "Extreme Truth" is recognizing what has been staring us in the face and calling it out!

So once it becomes apparent knowledge that the Kangressiyas are "Local Managers of Phoren Sarkaars", the revolution becomes much easier. To make it apparent knowledge, the slogan would have to be repeated ad infinitum.

So any "Muslim Appeasement" slogans is really fighting on Congress's turf, because somehow it doesn't make any Hindus agitated, as some consider it "Bigrhe hue Bhai ko Manaane ke liye zaroori hai"! Even slogans of "Paki Appeasement" have been countered successfully by the Congress, by saying the others are "Warmongers", as some say, "Burra hua, leki is chhotti si baat ko lekar phissad karne se kya phaayda, bhai"!

So one needs to open a new front!

Here is some more terminology:

1) Viceroy Sonia Gandhi
2) Deputy Viceroy Manmohan Singh
3) Viceroy-in-Waiting Rahul Baba


There never was a "Last" Viceroy of India, as the post was never abolished only painted over. By giving Sonia Gandhi an aura as all-powerful person in India, we actually help her, for that is exactly the kind of person sycophants look for and people are awed by. She should be termed as a puppet, a "Local Manager".
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Arjun »

RajeshA wrote:So once it becomes apparent knowledge that the Kangressiyas are "Local Managers of Phoren Sarkaars", the revolution becomes much easier. To make it apparent knowledge, the slogan would have to be repeated ad infinitum.
RajeshA ji,

The urban middle-class crowd is already lost to the Congress per most opinion polls of last year...we can wait for the next one this quarter but my guess is the same trend would be confirmed.

The urban middle-class which logs on to social media is already very heavily anti-Congress - I mean any random check of ANY website, blog of any stature whatsoever would indicate that the thinking classes by and large are abandoning the Congressis in droves...

So, I am not as much worried about the urban middle-class - Modi will manage that part. The issue is that rural + urban lower-classes outnumber the urban middle-class by say maybe 4:1. These are the folks who normally vote based on caste, bribes, surnames and other considerations....social media is not likely to reach these folks. The real issue is how to get their votes - "local managers of phoren sarkars' etc is not likely to get this segment worked up. At least I don't think so - in the absence of hard statistics or data to the contrary.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^^ AAh. Then we are down to hoping the INC will do a Pak and commit tactical brilliance. Just give them rope, then hopoe and pray I guess. Chalo, wahi sahi. jai ho, jai ho.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by member_20317 »

BRF guys don't have much networking in Vernacular press or any press. Most are middle class to upper middle who do not agree with the 'free press' so come here online. Also Net is already chock a block with internet hindus. a hindu grows a brain he comes online to compare notes regurgitates whatever he learns to 4-5 guys at work and 4-5 guys near home and thats it.

RajeshA ji ab sone bhi jayiye :) or are you back in India. Char cheh ghante mein to hum bhi so jayenge. Ab to Nishachar bhai log aane wale hein.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RajeshA »

Arjun wrote:So, I am not as much worried about the urban middle-class - Modi will manage that part. The issue is that rural + urban lower-classes outnumber the urban middle-class by say maybe 4:1. These are the folks who normally vote based on caste, bribes, surnames and other considerations....social media is not likely to reach these folks. The real issue is how to get their votes - "local managers of phoren sarkars' etc is not likely to get this segment worked up. At least I don't think so - in the absence of hard statistics or data to the contrary.
1) Here in fact Congress's own propaganda of several decades would come in handy. They have been telling people how Congress made the country independent. In the rural areas, this message still resonates. The people have already been sensitized to the Independence Struggle and Congress's role in it. There is still a lot of legacy support, where caste has not already broken up the vote banks. So in this whole narrative, a big makhi needs to be introduced, and that is that the Foreign Rule endures, where Nehru was the first Secret-Viceroy of India, and the position became hereditary. The Congress never made India independent.

2) Also because one is trying to get into the rural constituency, that is also the reason why the message needs to be kept very simple, to be effective. A few words need to tell the whole story. A few words need to nail down the issue. When one says Viceroy Sonia Gandhi, it speaks the whole story. When one says the "Local Manager", one would ask "Whose?"!

The idea is to create such a huge wave in the urban-accessible media, that it splashes over into the rural regions as well. The trick is to use one or two words that should one speak them out once, even in fun, that it corrupts/pollutes/liberates his mind forever. Hence => Viceroy Sonia Gandhi!
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RajeshA »

ravi_g ji,

I am an Internet Hindu sitting outside India! Can't sleep at work! :)
Last edited by RajeshA on 22 Jan 2013 18:36, edited 1 time in total.
member_20317
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by member_20317 »

Arjun ji I believe you have a point regarding "Local Managers of Phoren Sarkaars". While the middle, and lower middle class understands this but the capacity for fight back is limited. So there is little point in making them run a long drawn fight. Something else that the people with low fight back capacity can put to use. Something that goes deep and connects with the emotions at a very visceral level. The crime situation is one such issue. The women folk can be awakened to demand better from their menfolk. The Chandra Sekhar Azad idea that Sushsupti ji threw up is also usable for better educated people.

See lets take urban India into consideration. I am familiar with only Delhi so I will throw in a few points w.r.t. the zeitgeist here. BJP has been winning MCD elections but NSUI has been winning university elections.

Sometime back I did point out that the populations of Delhi has been changing in favour of Kongress. But all is not lost. The space for jockeying is there. But there is a crying need to connect to the absolute aam aadmi. Resettlement colony residents, teachers especially, Kaam walis, Rickshaw pullers, people visiting mandirs, chowk bazars. These are the places that need to be dominated with a cheap and best solution like public address systems on mobile vehicles.

JMHT.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by johneeG »

No subject can be grasped in one shot. It will be understood in small calibrated doses. The dosage depends on the audience. Depending on the receptiveness of the audience, the dosage has to be set.

The problem with radical truth is that people refuse to accept it and psychologically shut out all the info. They refuse to even consider the possibilities and make critical judgement.

However, one should not be afraid and stop from spelling out the 'ultimate' truth. The trick is to introduce the 'extreme' truth, but, not to push the audience to desperation. Just introduce the dynamic and be patient. If the listener is receptive, give some more info. If the listener is not receptive, then allow the info to stew in his mind for some time. Let the person get used to the idea. The first-time listener won't accept it in one go. It will take some time. So, one's job is to introduce the idea into the listener's mind. Its like planting the idea(seed) and let it sprout.

Actually, if one thinks about it, it takes time to accept a new truth that changes the very world view.

The secret to is not to get too 'aggressive' or 'defensive' in real-interactions. One should be ready for the other party to thrash the idea. Let them do that. Then, you can present your side of the story. Don't expect radical changes as soon as you spell out your idea. Be patient.

Sometimes, people cling to a system for vested interests. These people are most hard to 'convince'. And maybe the best course when dealing with such people is to point out their vested interests only.

When the listener listens to it for the first time, one is boggled by this kind of news and simply shuts out all this info. After the listener has gotten over the initial 'shock', then he is ready to listen and analyze the facts.

Generally, hardcore supporters of C-system avoid such discussion. They either try to divert the topic or just end the conversation. They desperately try to change the topic when it becomes too inconvenient. When they try such tactics, then it is better to rest the topic, on that occasion. And take it up later, when the occasion presents itself again.

First thing to understand is what the 'audience' already knows. Then, build upon it.

And the basic point about, propaganda is 'repetition'. One has to keep repeating the message(perhaps, in different forms to suit the occasion).

And yes, BJP or whoever is in public life has great responsibility of releasing the full data about this system and the main players who have been raised on to a pedestal by hagiographers for all these years.

There is so many dirty facts about dynasty that could be de-classified and bring them into mainstream by talking about them. Ex: Chacha and his antics. Quattrochi and his business links with Mainos. Indra's KGB links. so on and on.

NDA did no such thing. Yep, one may claim that NDA was busy with other important issues like 'Education sector(particularly history)'. I feel that NDA failed in tackling these 'important issues' because it did not go after the individuals who were responsible for the rot. Going after the dynasty and the system placed by them would have given space for NDA to work on important issues. NDA should have taken lead on these issues. Instead, NDA's silence allowed the dynasty to get away with it.

Infact, when you try to tell these things to anyone, the first retort by them would be,"if all this is true, then why is BJP/NDA not shouting about this from rooftops?"

In this regard, Subramania Swamy has done a great job. The paid media would have continued to tell that Raul and Madam are a great intellectual who acquired degrees from prestigious foreign universities. But, thanks to SS, one knows that Raul is an academic failure. And Madam has submitted forged certificates.

Even after these revelations being in public domain, BJP did not jump on these. That means, either BJP is too afraid/timid or compromised. Either way, BJP's silence is taken as proof of lack of guilt of the dynasty. In fact, kongis argue that there was nothing wrong in Bofors case because if there was some thing amiss, then NDA regime would have pursued it.

Most people take the silence of the opponent as an admission of failure and assertive posturing as the evidence of some truth. Kongis understand this piskology. Thats why they never go on defensive. They talk about most non-sense theory in most brazen manner(like 26/11 was an inside job- Diggy). The same piskology is also used by EJs and jihadi leaders. And they keep repeating the message. Lot of people get convinced by body language rather than actual content. Of course, one needs thick skin to pull off that methodology.

Personally, I found a method most useful:
You can introduce people to a new idea as exciting info that you came across.

You pass on each tid-bit of info from time to time, as the occasion presents. This, I think, has greater effect than piling all the evidence in one shot. Because, it takes time for people to internalize the facts and digest the various facets of the truth.

Also, you position yourself as someone(almost dispassionately) passing the info. The other thing is to give all the various theories that are floating around. And also mention when a certain theory is unconvincing to you. It is better to mention the theory that is being professed by the 'opponent' and then give the reasons why this theory is untenable.

For example: if a person X says that Taj Mahal is a Hindu monument occupied by the muslims. Then, the first reaction is to think that the X is a nut job. One will not even go into the reasons why X believes Taj Mahal to be a Hindu monument. This was the first round.

But, after some time, when gets used to the idea that X believes in Tejo Mahalaya. When this topic comes again, then one will some obvious questions like: Why do you believe it is Tejo Mahalaya, when everyone and his aunt say that it was built by Shah Jahan, the great lover, for his dear wife?

This ensues a small debate. X may give his reason for believing. It may not convince the person. At best, the person may think that the topic needs more investigation. At worse, the person may think that X believes in a conspiracy. This is the second round.

After some time, one more round may happen. This time, the person is more receptive to the idea, almost sub-consciously. This time, he may also be willing to allow himself to think critically on the issue. And he may also be ready to admit sub-consciously that truthfully he does not know about Taj Mahal. He simply accepted the majority world-view guided by the Govt. and media. He never really made any critical investigation.

After this stage, the person is ready to accept the possibilities, instead of insisting on what he has been taught.

All of this happens in an informal settings.

A: Hey, I came across some thing interesting...
B: what..?
A: I read on the net that Taj Mahal is a Hindu monument, imagine that !!!
B: :roll: net is full of these kind of nut job conspiracies, you should stay away from it.
A: Fine, but it has some interesting points that made sense to me.
B: Really?! Like what...?
A: You know Shah Jahan was a hardcore womanizer with several wives and several more concubines.
B: hmm... of course, he was the emperor. What else do you expect?
A: But, we are told that Shah Jahan built the Taj Mahal as a symbol of Love for his beloved dead wife. A person having so many wives and concubines, would hardly miss a dead wife and build a monument for her. And where are the monuments for other wives and concubines?
B: Maybe she was his most favourite...
A: I read on the net that Shah Jahan and lusted his own daughter and perhaps, even had committed incest with her. Do you think this man is capable of love? And would he waste lots of money in building a monument for a dead wife, when he had so many other women?
B: Lusted his own daughter?!! I can't believe it. Is it really true?
***(end of round 1)

I found the above style most useful in real life. Also, it is better to let the other person research it himself, instead of providing with all the info. So, directing them to the source(that convinced you) can be useful. Its like,"I went to so and so site and found this info. You can also go to it and read it yourself."


Anyway, I find that the educated(macualytes?) to be most reluctant to consider the possibilities. As opposed to this, the rustic(even if literate) are more ready to consider the various possibilities. One would think that it would be the other way around i.e. the educated would be ready to consider the possibilities instead of insisting on a dogmatic stand. But, it is the other way around.
---
Should Modi react to kongi's 'communal' plans?
Yep, he must react. He cannot allow the kongis to get away with it. Having said that, he can react to them at a time, place and manner of his choosing.

I think kongi system has completely failed and is collapsing. kongi behaviour shows the bankruptcy of any positive and fresh ideas. Modi can capitalize on this.

And if kongis want 2014 elections to be polarized, they are doing it in a self-destructive manner. This bogeyman of 'Hindu terror' will hurt the kongis in elections, if the elections really get polarized.

The polarization will help the kongis only if the 'secular-Hindus' see BJP/Modi as responsible for polarization. But, if these 'secular-hindus' see kongis pursuing a blatantly anti-hindu policies, they may be pushed into hindutva camp. I think kongis are actually pushing many 'secular-hindus' into becoming 'internet-hindus' by their blatant anti-hindu policies. The only hindus who continue to support the kongis are either brain-dead or have vested interests.

It seems to me that Modi has two planks: Hindutva and Development.
He will have to balance them both. Because there are different audience with different appeals. Only development will appeal to some, only hindutva will appeal to some, a combination will appeal to some.

The paid-media wants Modi to ditch Hindutva completely by 'rendering an apology'. That would alienate a section. And this section maybe so enraged that they may even go and vote for the opponents.

Alternatively, kongis may drum up 'communal' plank and try to cover up their dismal track-record on governance. Modi must not allow spot-light to shift from the misrule of kongis and the pathetic condition of India as a consequence.

So, Modi will have to balance both of Hindutva and Development.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Gus »

Well theres one thing that can be taken from massa and applied directly to India.

Double down. See what that kushid guy is saying now. This is not some loose talk.

This is planned. Expect more to say the same. And often enough so this becomes "true".
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Neela »

RajeshA-ji
I am using some of the stuff you said without proper attributions. Let me know if this not ok for you and I will desist.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RamaY »

Hari Seldon wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:It is not entirely correct to say that Guiliani cleaned up New York. What really happened was that the NYPD figured out a way to flood crime prone neighborhoods and complete suppress crime in area after area. This was contrary to Guiliani's theme of abandoning areas that could not be saved and trying to pretty up the windows in some meaningless areas. The NYPD largely ignored Guiliani because he had zero control over them. Ultimately this improvement in policing is what keeps NY clean to this day though the present budget cut situation creates an opening for crime....
The impression one gets is that the NYPD woke up one fine day and decided to act. The political backing, clear cut vision, orders, rules of engagement, mitigation of paperwork and procedural hassles in arresting, detaining and prosecuting crime that came from the Mayor's office shouldn't be discounted so much.

The 'broken window' theory of crimefighting wasn't something Rudy invented but he did implement it successfully on an unprecedented scale. The results speak for themselves.

End of the day that's what we also seek from our netas in office - clarity of vision, unity of purpose, accountability in measurable ways. Sure, the Delhi sultanate has clarity of vision and unity of purpose when it comes to scamming and looting. But what about public welfare and guardianship of public wealth and trust? I think we deserve better.
We did a case study in a chee-chee yum-bee-ye on this NYC. I can scan the case study and email it if people want.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RajeshA »

johneeG wrote:The problem with radical truth is that people refuse to accept it and psychologically shut out all the info. They refuse to even consider the possibilities and make critical judgement.
johneeG ji,

another way of presenting the truth is through "ridicule and fun". Let the others accept the propaganda product, not as some challenge to find truth, but simply to take part in something cheeky, funny, and jokey.

In fact, the sickulars have been able to introduce many such little jokes, and little poems making fun of Hindu customs, icons, personalities, and history. People often take to them, because they are funny. But it slowly corrodes the respect one has for the above.

I believe the Nationalists have been less successful, and mostly the cartoons have still been soft-responses, not taking the things too far. The nationalists perhaps seeing how the country is going down, have probably lost their sense of humor.

But ridicule is a very formidable propaganda weapon. Brits are past masters of this art. They do it very subtly.
johneeG wrote:And the basic point about, propaganda is 'repetition'. One has to keep repeating the message(perhaps, in different forms to suit the occasion).
johneeG ji,

this is also what we sometimes fail to appreciate. Repetition is key!

Sometimes we think, other people are aware of the truth and thus there is no need to introduce any new soundbites into the crowd. Actually it is exactly because the crowd is convinced that they could ensure that a soundbite becomes more popular and reach a level where it can overflow into neighboring ideological constituencies. We often give too much importance to truth, but do not understand the mechanics of its dispersal.

The arrow becomes lethal because of its sharp arrowhead because all the force is concentrated onto a very small surface. That is why, I say one should use sharp arrowheads to shoot propaganda arrows. One word propaganda is the most effective. That is why I say ...

Viceroy Sonia Gandhi
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RajeshA »

Neela ji,

no need to attribute to me. Use as you deem fit.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RajeshA »

Because we have been using Wagah Kandle Kissers for so long, now the WKK crowd too are cognizant of the word. Repetition makes the label stick.

I know that on the Internet, I have caused some people major major khujlee by referring to them as AIT-Sepoys, though never here on BRF. If the word is controversial and some people feel ill-at-ease on hearing it, it simply means more people would also want to use it to make others feel ill-at-ease.

When one says Viceroy Sonia Gandhi, it takes away ALL her dignity even though one gives her an epithet of majesty. It makes her from one the "most powerful woman" in the world to a regal puppet. But still Viceroy is/was a position of much influence, power, respect, awe (and hate) in India. It is a most effective form of "othering" in Indian context, something fatal for a politician in a democracy.

On the other hand calling her Empress is completely stupid.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by vijayk »

Hari Seldon wrote:INC wants to play the game on its turf - that of sekular politics. No reason why NDA should agree to play that game at all only. Let the INC play alone by itself - that way all goals it scores will be self-goals only.

NDA should instead choose a new turf - that of governance, accountability and reform. Play to your strengths, not to your opponents, after all.

Meanwhile, INC's governance failures are so large and glaring that it doesn't take much to highlight the same. Food price inflation is at least double the official inflation rate and hits the lower middle class and below hardest. Rural voters may vote for NREGA though and that will keep the INC boat afloat well past the 100 seats mark easily, I reckon.
++++++++++++++10000000000

The SCUM MAFIA wants to keep it communal. The PAID MEDIA, CORRUPT NGO dorks will help them at every step. The Islamists will try to keep the Muslims on communal alcohol.

Don't even dwell on corruption. Because the PAID MEDIA will make it equal equal 20 crores = 1,76,000 lakh crores. Kujliwals will keep that equal equal. The new Lokpal approved by MAFIA judges will start creating trouble for Modi in 2013 which will be replayed million times by PAID MEDIA.

Make it an issue of Governance, Development and Law/Order and delivery of services. I say boldly introduce concepts of Primaries in BJP in 50 constituencies and announce that they will make this constitutional mandate for all parties or they will be de-recognized.

Another idea I have in mind for Government services:

A part of Government services will be announced as bonus for employees. Ideas on how Govt employees can benefit from cleaner roads, better service such as Crime control, Cleaner roads, Efficient transport will be rewarded and the profits or service fees will be routed to the employees. That will reduce corruption and increase performance.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by johneeG »

RajeshA ji,
true. Art is a powerful medium to spread ideas and perhaps the most effective one. Art can mean movies, songs, jokes, books, articles, pamphlets, stories, cartoons, slogans, poems, icons, maxims, sculptures, ...etc.

Many people join the bandwagon for fun, peer-pressure, going-with-the-flow, and fear-of-ridicule. Yep, social pressure, through these means, is very effective.

That arrow-analogy was nice. :)

---
BTW, Kerjriwal is missing in action these days! What happened, why has he gone silent?
Last edited by johneeG on 22 Jan 2013 20:11, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by kmkraoind »

Rahul: Democrat on weekdays, privileged prince on weekends - Sagarika Ghose on Firstpost
The Congress’ chintan shivir at Jaipur which anointed Rahul Gandhi as Congress Vice-President was a shivir awash in emotion, fulsome tributes and streaming tears from family loyalists. After Rahul’s speech, particularly after the emotional recollections of his grandmother’s assassination and father’s courage, Congressmen were in spasms of euphoric delight, comparing Rahul to a Rajiv Gandhi- Barack Obama Two-in-One. The chintan shivir was a carnival of competitive loyalty, a fawning fiesta of gush gush praise. A party accustomed to being driven by a monarch listened bemused as the heir apparent held forth on the need to transform the nature of power, of ending closed door remote leadership, of ending the era of lal battis.
The article worth reading in full. If you remove the name of Sagarika Ghose, one might think the article is penned by a hardcore nationalist. It seems rats are abandoning captain-less, sinking ship.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RamaY »

kmkraoind garu,

Read above article from this vantage point - http://newsinsight.net/Thepredators.aspx#page=page-1
Around the family, predators have come up thick and fast. Some have attached themselves to Sonia and others to Rahul Gandhi. Rahul Gandhi’s predators have had enough of waiting, and want their man for the top job, whence the fruits of power will flow to them. Sonia’s predators, on the other hand, have worked to stop this transfer of power, and they have been assisted in this by the managers in government, led by the aides of Manmohan Singh, who wants to remain prime minister to the last hour of his second term. If Sonia and the PM’s aides have their way, they would keep Rahul out. The other camp has succeeded in Jaipur in partly neutralizing this strategy. It is not that nobody knows that Rahul Gandhi is unfit for office. But this only makes the predators hungrier and impatient that he comes to power soonest, and you know the nature of the beast if you clap eyes on Digvijay Singh, pure poison, and Rahul Gandhi’s mentor and tutor.
Now you know which predator group Sagarika Ghosh belongs to.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RajeshA »

Rahul: Democrat on weekdays, privileged prince on weekends - Sagarika Ghose on Firstpost
The Congress’ chintan shivir at Jaipur which anointed Rahul Gandhi as Congress Vice-President was a shivir awash in emotion, fulsome tributes and streaming tears from family loyalists. After Rahul’s speech, particularly after the emotional recollections of his grandmother’s assassination and father’s courage, Congressmen were in spasms of euphoric delight, comparing Rahul to a Rajiv Gandhi- Barack Obama Two-in-One. The chintan shivir was a carnival of competitive loyalty, a fawning fiesta of gush gush praise. A party accustomed to being driven by a monarch listened bemused as the heir apparent held forth on the need to transform the nature of power, of ending closed door remote leadership, of ending the era of lal battis.
kmkraoind wrote:The article worth reading in full. If you remove the name of Sagarika Ghose, one might think the article is penned by a hardcore nationalist. It seems rats are abandoning captain-less, sinking ship.
This is what I am trying to get at. Some of us consider the notion horrible that instead of a democracy, we have a monarchy with a crowned prince, an heir apparent. We think Sagarika Ghose is making some sort of criticism. There is no criticism. The Sickulars, Macaulayites and Yuppies see India as a monarchy and they are perfectly happy with it. Earlier they had the British Monarchy ruling over India, and even then they were perfectly happy. If their ideological fathers, the Brits can have a monarchy, then why not the Macaulayites, especially if it is lock-step with the parent monarchy in Great Britain.

We, even those who are appalled at having a monarchy in India, should stop acknowledging as such, because either we acknowledge it and come to the streets and overthrow it, which somehow does not happen, or we are in fact saying, okay we can live with it, and thus in a way, we are accepting it.

If somebody says "Heir Apparent" we should retort by saying "Viceroy-in-Waiting". "Heir-Apparent" is just the way sickular media is promoting him and preparing the Indian people to accept the vocabulary, preparing the people to accept India as a defacto monarchy.

But the puppeteers of this Nehru-Gandhi "monarchy" are abroad, and thus this monarchy is no monarchy, but just one large Duchy, but since we are a Colony far away, better to call it as a Colony, and better to call the "Heir Apparent" as "Viceroy-in-Waiting"!

Let the relationship between the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty and Islamo-Christianist world powers be open and known!
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RamaY »

If people are comfortable with monarchy and like that model, why not give them a Dharmic monarchy? Perhaps we should go back to an elephant/animal garlanding the future Grama adyaksh, MLA, MP, PM etc? Looks like they have a better sensory mechanism.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RajeshA »

RamaY wrote:If people are comfortable with monarchy and like that model, why not give them a Dharmic monarchy? Perhaps we should go back to an elephant/animal garlanding the future Grama adyaksh, MLA, MP, PM etc? Looks like they have a better sensory mechanism.
The continuity for that is gone, and I don't think Dharmics today believe in Monarchy! However the present Nehru-Gandhi Pseudo-Monarchy has a direct continuity with that of the British Monarchy, so it is accepted by the Sickulars and Macaulayites, while Yuppies accept it because everything else for them seem to be even less modern.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by johneeG »

Viceroy is a good title. One can also use Mansabdaar. Mansabdaar is more or less Mughal equivalent of Viceroy.

---
I was reading about Roman History. The one thing that struck me is that introduction of X-ianity signals the beginning of end of Roman Empire. There is a common trait shared by all the X-ian emperors of Rome: they compromised with the external enemies that threatened the Roman Empire. And they persecuted the majority of Romans for being non-X-ians. They systematically undermined the ancient social system of Romans. All this led to the decline of Rome and it was taken over by the barbarians. The irony being that the X-ianity cut deals with the barbarians and continued to survive while the Roman empire was destroyed.

The last Roman Emperor who tried to protect Rome from external threats in a proper manner was Julian. Julian was the cousin of Constantine. He was one of the few family members that survived. Many of the family members were killed by Constantine. Julian was a non-X-ian. He was not impressed by the X-ianity's role in Roman society and he supported the ancient 'pagan' religion of Romans. Unfortunately for Roman Empire, Julian died pre-maturely.

After him, there was no non-X-ian Roman Emperor.

The case of Theodosius I is the best example to illustrate the rule of X-ian Emperors:
Theodosius, the Roman Emperor from 380 to 395 AD, decreed that adherents of other religions should not hold meetings and that the buildings used for such meetings would be confiscated. It was also decreed that there would be no freedom at all for non-Christians (Gibbon?s Decline and Fall of Roman
Empire Vol-3, page 412). In those days, if non-Christians refused to part with their properties, they were likely to lose their lives.
(Kristumata Chedanam -Chattampi Swami)
Theodosius I (Latin: Flavius Theodosius Augustus;[1] 11 January 347 – 17 January 395), also known as Theodosius the Great, was Roman Emperor from 379 to 395. Theodosius was the last emperor to rule over both the eastern and the western halves of the Roman Empire. During his reign, the Goths secured control of Illyricum after the Gothic War, establishing their homeland south of the Danube within the empire's borders. He also issued decrees that effectively made Nicene Christianity the official state church of the Roman Empire.[2][3] He is recognized by the Eastern Orthodox Church as Saint Theodosius.
The Christian persecution of paganism under Theodosius I began in 381, after the first couple of years of his reign in the Eastern Roman Empire. In the 380s, Theodosius I reiterated Constantine's ban on pagan sacrifice, prohibited haruspicy on pain of death, pioneered the criminalization of Magistrates who did not enforce anti-pagan laws, broke up some pagan associations and destroyed pagan temples.

Between 389–391 he promulgated the "Theodosian decrees," which establed a practical ban on paganism;[17] visits to the temples were forbidden,[18][19] remaining pagan holidays abolished, the eternal fire in the Temple of Vesta in the Roman Forum extinguished, the Vestal Virgins disbanded, the practices of taking auspices and witchcraftwere punished. Theodosius refused to restore the Altar of Victory in the Senate House, as asked by pagan senators.

In 392 he became the Emperor (the last one to claim sole rule over the Empire). From this moment till the end of his reign in 395, while pagans remained outspoken in their demands for toleration,[20][21] he authorized or participated in the destruction of many temples, holy sites, images and objects of piety throughout the Empire,[22][23][24][25][26] and participated in actions by Christians against major pagan sites.[27]

He issued a comprehensive law that prohibited any pagan ritual even within the privacy of one's home,[28] and was particularly oppressive of Manicheans.[29] Paganism was now proscribed, a "religio illicita."[30] He is likely to have suppressed the ancient Olympic Games, whose last record of celebration was in 393.[31]
The Goths and their allies (Vandali, Taifalae, Bastarnae and the native Carpi) entrenched in the provinces of Dacia and eastern Pannonia Inferior consumed Theodosious' attention. The Gothic crisis was so dire that his co-Emperor Gratian relinquished control of the Illyrian provinces and retired to Trier in Gaul to let Theodosius operate without hindrance. A major weakness in the Roman position after the defeat at Adrianople was the recruiting of barbarians to fight against other barbarians. In order to reconstruct the Roman Army of the West, Theodosius needed to find able bodied soldiers and so he turned to the most capable men readily at hand: the barbarians recently settled in the Empire. This caused many difficulties in the battle against barbarians since the newly recruited fighters had little or no loyalty to Theodosius.
Theodosius was reduced to the costly expedient of shipping his recruits to Egypt and replacing them with more seasoned Romans, but there were still switches of allegiance that resulted in military setbacks. Gratian sent generals to clear the dioceses of Illyria (Pannonia and Dalmatia) of Goths, and Theodosius was able finally to enter Constantinople on 24 November 380, after two seasons in the field. The final treaties with the remaining Gothic forces, signed 3 October 382, permitted large contingents of primarily Thervingian Goths to settle along the southern Danube frontier in the province of Thrace and largely govern themselves.

The Goths now settled within the Empire had, as a result of the treaties, military obligations to fight for the Romans as a national contingent, as opposed to being fully integrated into the Roman forces.[6] However, many Goths would serve in Roman legions and others, as foederati, for a single campaign, while bands of Goths switching loyalties became a destabilizing factor in the internal struggles for control of the Empire.

In 390 the population of Thessalonica rioted in complaint against the presence of the local Gothic garrison. The garrison commander was killed in the violence, so Theodosius ordered the Goths to kill all the spectators in the circus as retaliation; Theodoret, a contemporary witness to these events, reports:

"...the anger of the Emperor rose to the highest pitch, and he gratified his vindictive desire for vengeance by unsheathing the sword most unjustly and tyrannically against all, slaying the innocent and guilty alike. It is said seven thousand perished without any forms of law, and without even having judicial sentence passed upon them; but that, like ears of wheat in the time of harvest, they were alike cut down."[7]
It is these Goths who finally sacked Rome in the next decade.
410, 24 August: Sack of Rome by Alaric and the Visigoths.
This shows how pathetic ruler Theodosious proved to be. The same Goths who were patronaged by him, without hearing the protests of the locals, sacked the Rome within a decade. Theodosious' rule was the final straw that broke the proverbial camel's back and resulted in the begining of disintegration of Roman empire.

Roman Empire never recovered from this. Ironically, Theodosious has been declared a 'Saint' and Julian is called 'apostate'. Later the Huns came into the picture and gave many blows to the dying Roman Empire.

After the Roman Empire fell, it was followed by X-ian dark ages for approx. 1000 years.

What is the relevance of this to this thread?
Well, the same phenomenon is repeating in bharat... compromises with external threats, allowing the enemies to acquire space internally, persecution(backed by law) of 'pagan' majority, foisting ideologies that undermine the ancient traditions and break the social structure, imbecile and fanatic emperors, palace intrigues, ...etc.

If one does not learn from history, then one will end up repeating it...
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Sanku »

johneeG wrote: NDA did no such thing. Yep, one may claim that NDA was busy with other important issues like 'Education sector(particularly history)'. I feel that NDA failed in tackling these 'important issues' because it did not go after the individuals who were responsible for the rot.
The individual responsible for the above is Constantine. How do you propose NDA fights him? Go back and fight Disraeli and McCaulay?

For some one so perceptive, even people like you can let emotions cloud your vision?

BJP had committed only one mistake under ABV -- only one -- let themselves into believing they will win because they were better, and C-system was too damaged to come back.

Apart from losing that one election, they did everything right or at least not too wrong.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by member_23629 »

BJP had committed only one mistake under ABV -- only one --
The only mistake BJP committed was to succumb to American pressure to introduce EVMs. The rest is history.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by ramana »

Sushupti, Please let us know about that family. Thanks, ramana

Is the contention that JLN called the police after his meeting with Azad/
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by johneeG »

Sanku wrote:
johneeG wrote: NDA did no such thing. Yep, one may claim that NDA was busy with other important issues like 'Education sector(particularly history)'. I feel that NDA failed in tackling these 'important issues' because it did not go after the individuals who were responsible for the rot.
The individual responsible for the above is Constantine. How do you propose NDA fights him? Go back and fight Disraeli and McCaulay?

For some one so perceptive, even people like you can let emotions cloud your vision?

BJP had committed only one mistake under ABV -- only one -- let themselves into believing they will win because they were better, and C-system was too damaged to come back.

Apart from losing that one election, they did everything right or at least not too wrong.
Sanku ji
That post about Roman history, I was trying to compare the situation of Rome to today's Bharat. It was not at all related to BJP. I was comparing the present regime to Theodosious I. Just as present regime is compromising with pakis, Theodosious compromised with the Gauls. Just as present regime is allowing the pakis to create network within the Bharat, Theodosious allowed Gauls to settle inside Roman territory(it also reminds of 'soft' border policy that is being advocated for Kashmir by present regime). Just as people are protesting against these compromises, Roman protested against the Gauls settling. Theodosious used the Gauls to lash down upon Roman citizens, just like dilli police are used against protests of natives. Finally, the result of these policies was Gauls sacked Rome. Roman Empire could never recover from this blow. Later, it was given hard time by Huns. Finally, the Roman empire ended. And the curtains lifted for X-ian dark ages lasting approx. 1000 years. Europeans were again enlightened only when they came in contact with East, particularly India. If India had also become like them, then Europe would have continued in that state. Just look at the pakis! They were/are Indians also. What is the difference between Indians and pakis? Ideology. Pakis, of today, are very much in same condition(in fact a better condition) than what Europe was plunged into for 1000 years. All that started with Theodosious.

Bharat should learn from that history. Pagan Rome was converted through political power and the empire itself was destroyed. Same process, through present regime, seems to be happening to Bharat.

Theodosious is best example of general X-ian rulers of Rome. Julian is an example of non-X-ian rulers of Rome who tried to protect the empire and preserve the ancient religion of Rome from trespasses of X-ianity. Julian's rule can be compared to Narasimha Rao's rule and that of NDA's.

---
About BJP and NDA:

What I expect from them is to expose the kongis. And when they get the chance to be in power, they should have let the law take its course. They should have de-classified lot of info which was classified by the dynasty because it was damaging their image. 1962 is a good start. Quttorachi case is a good example. It is not just about politics, but just letting the law take its course. I am not even talking of a purge, I am talking of punishing the corrupt. NDA was unable to do it. Don't you think it is a failure on their part?

This behaviour raises doubts in my mind because it seems illogical. And recently, there have been allegations of conspiracy and collusion. So, that possibility needs to be taken into account. Yes, it may be possible that there was no conspiracy. Even if there was no conspiracy, it is a failure to not to bring previous regime to book for their corruption and other illegalities.

Today, this is used by the kongis as a defence. Bofors is case in point. They say that if the kongis were wrong, then NDA would have prosecuted them. Because they did not prosecute, kongis must be innocent. This is a kongi logic. So, failure of NDA to bring the culprits to book, as given a sort of legitimacy to the culprits and is allowing them to survive.

I understand where you are coming from. You are a loyal supporter of BJP and all its leaders. You believe that all its leaders are united and honest. I don't fault you for holding that view. BJP has survived due to loyal supporters like you. But, in politics, there is always a possibility of subterfuge, infiltrations, back-stabbing, ...etc. So, I consider those possibilities as well.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Sanku »

johneeG wrote: That post about Roman history,
That part I understand and fully agree with johneeG-ji, I was talking in context of your saying that "those individuals" have to be exposed. I am saying that there are no individuals to be exposed, it goes way to back. Exposing Nehruvians is only that much useful.
1962 is a good start.
Personally I agree, however I do not think that would have any impact on electoral prospects. Seriously.
Quttorachi case is a good example. It is not just about politics, but just letting the law take its course. I am not even talking of a purge, I am talking of punishing the corrupt. NDA was unable to do it. Don't you think it is a failure on their part?
Yashwant Sinha is on record saying that it was the biggest failure of his term that they could not take the whole thing to its logical conclusion. But they tried very hard, it was not for want of trying.

Its not as if everybody else in the world was sitting waiting for BJP to act and send Q to jail.
You are a loyal supporter of BJP and all its leaders. .
:lol:

Not at all johneeG. I only support one thing. BJP is incidental.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by ramana »

I don't see how these guys complain of not taking it to conclusion when they had so many inner fights and wasted time and effort. Their biggest wrong was to rely on the IAS bureaucats to set the policy and open Foreign exchange in media.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Sanku »

ramana wrote:I don't see how these guys complain of not taking it to conclusion when they had so many inner fights and wasted time and effort. Their biggest wrong was to rely on the IAS bureaucats to set the policy and open Foreign exchange in media.
Inner fights during ABV regime? :-? I know of none ramana garu. Yes they did rely on IAS types, that is true, and that was a mistake. However if any one here was expecting 60 years of C system to be "fixed" within 5 years, surely that is being unreasonable?

And in any case the C system has international backing, things are not going to change overnight anyway.
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