PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 20 Jun 2015 03:41

Philip wrote:One Q that has puzzled me,why the IAF obsession with twin-seat aircraft? Surely as avionics get smarter,the needfor a second pilot reduces and it simply adds to the life-cycle cost all the way down to an extra family to support,pensions,etc.

IMHO Its an organizational cultural thing, where many planners, and senior leaders think 4 eyes are better for SA and work-load. The IDF also took some convincing as was the F-16 Viper community that had Lockheed even draw up plans for a 2-seater before the F-22 community stepped in to explain to the Navy and Air force drivers what it meant to fly on an advanced fighter and what even the relatively primitive (compared to the F-35) Sensor fusion meant for the F-22 drivers in terms of workload.

Ultimately if the IAF wants 2 seats they are well within their rights to develop one with the $6 billion contribution as opposed to signing over that amount to complete essentially the Russian design, test and development program. Plenty of multi-national countries had divergent paths in development including the Flanker family (MKI), F-16 and the F-35.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jun 2015 03:55

Philip wrote:One Q that has puzzled me,why the IAF obsession with twin-seat aircraft? Surely as avionics get smarter,the need for a second pilot reduces and it simply adds to the life-cycle cost all the way down to an extra family to support,pensions,etc.

In mid 90s when Su-30MKI was chosen same IAF was complaining about drain in pilots needed to run the force.
Now they want only two pilots. Its an institutional thing.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Jun 2015 05:06

Before the Su-30, they were a one seat AF.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Jun 2015 08:07

NRao wrote:Too much FUD.

Will wait and see what happens after Modi gets back from Russia. Betting not much on the FGFA front.

Modi is going for SCO summit where likely India bid for sco full membership will be accepted let's see , no fgfa or any other deal will be signed its not a bilateral visit , likely will happen in Dec when modi goes for bilateral visit.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Jun 2015 11:08

RKumar wrote: I know IAF wants fifth gen fighter but how to maintain and fund a fleet of double engine fighters. It may break GoI coffer, to support around 300 Su-30 MKI, 36-72 Rafale, 300+ FGFA (Assuming it will replace some Su-30) and 300+ AMCA (Replacing other mix of planes).

I think IAF to think clear and hard what they want to do.
- IAF will not have even single long range bomber.
- What roles and numbers UAVs will fill
- I think GoI should invest only in two programs out of Rafale, FGFA and AMCA. They have to have strike one out. And don't leave whole decision on IAF, give them choice between Rafale and FGFA.

It is not a happy situation but its something IAF/MOD will have to deal with for their own indecision.

Rafale today is a product of no decision taken in early 2000 to purchase M2k post kargil , to get over rapidly depleting Squadron Strength they have no Choice to purchase Rafale or till end of this decade till mid next live with smaller squadron strength or do some quick patch work.

Tejas delays have itself contributed to to depleting squadron , when MK2 the definitive successor has yet to take off.

Similarly FGFA is necessity as AMCA would only come by end of next decade optimistically. MCA the early precussor for AMCA was proposed by Kalam since late 90's but then it didnt move ahead for many reasons including Tejas was just begining its flight test program.

If 126 M2K purchase was approved in 2000's as IAF really wanted it then and Tejas program better managed we would have not come to MMRCA in first place. Also purchase of 126 M2K would have given IAF breathing space to let Tejas program continue at pace ADA wants.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Jun 2015 11:13

Karan M wrote:Before the Su-30, they were a one seat AF.

You forgot Canberra

.....before Su-30 the IAF was content being most pakistan centric and had not much ambition or vision for IOR/China theatre or even had done 10 plus hours flight.

To be fair off my head I remember Jags and M2K had their own Twin Seat variant that were both Type Conversion and Combat Capable...... I think we never had IFR probes for these types or got it removed.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jun 2015 17:20

Keypubs posted the article on PAK-FA in latest AI issue that Karan spoke about

https://www.scribd.com/doc/269302992/AI ... 5F2RZoZWmG

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Jun 2015 18:14

^^^^^^

Very hard to believe that Modi would like 154 of these planes. ?????

Little new has been heard about the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA for many months – and most of what has is rather pessimistic. After more than five years of trials, the T-50 prototypes have made about 600 flights, only a sixth of the amount necessary to complete testing of the fighter.

The newest, fifth, example (T-50-5) first flew on October 27, 2013. It was damaged by an engine fire while on the runway at Zhukovsky on June 10 last year. In March 2015, Russian deputy defence minister Yuri Borisov questioned the usefulness of pushing ahead with the PAK FA (Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsii or Future Air Complex for Tactical Aviation) programme and announced more orders for simpler Su-30SM and Su-35 fighters.

And in India, more doubts have emerged about the joint Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme – which is based on the PAK FA.

Aircraft Numbers

During his inspection tour of arms industry plants in the Far East of Russia on March 23, Borisov visited the Komsomolsk-on-Amur factory, which has produced the flight-test T-50s – as well as building Su-27SM3, Su-30M2 and Su-35S fighters for the Russian Air Force (RuAF).

He said the RuAF might buy fewer T-50s by 2020 than planned in the National Armament Programme, which initially, reportedly, called for the purchase of 60. A day after his visit, the Kommersant daily newspaper, quoting a source in the Russian Ministry of Defence, said the air force would equip only one frontline squadron with 12 T-50s by that date (although by then there would be 52 deliveries, with eight each in 2016, 2017 and 2018 and 14 each in 2019 and 2020).

In a Ministry of Defence press release about Borisov’s visit to Komsomolsk-on- Amur, these figures are absent. But there is a telling phrase: “Within the confines of correction [read: cuts] of the National Armament Programme the Ministry of Defence of Russia reserves the right to determine the number of the fifth-generation fighters purchased.”

And then: “Especially in assessments of military pilots, the Su-35 fighters of the so-called ‘4+ generation’ demonstrate good characteristics. It will be more convenient to have the reserve in the form of the PAK FA… having [first] squeezed the entire potential of 4+ fighters,” said Borisov in the statement.

According to the press release, in 2015 the Komsomolsk-on-Amur plant “should deliver... five Su-30M2 fighters, 14 Su-35 multi-role fighters and four T-50 fifth-generation fighters for flight tests”.

Nothing is said about the RuAF’s Su-30SM fighters, because they are produced by the ‘rival’ plant in Irkutsk. The Russian Ministry of Defence has ordered 72 Su-30SM fighters and by the end of 2014 had received 37; the plan for 2015 is to deliver 27 more.

Delayed Programme

Borisov’s words about the “reserve in the form of PAK FA” mean the Russians will continue the research and development part of the PAK FA programme, but the series production of the aircraft (apart from a small initial batch) will be postponed.

Completing at least a small batch of aircraft and delivering them to the combat evaluation centre in Lipetsk is necessary to report to the President of Russia and to demonstrate to the public that launching PAK FA series production by December 31 2016 can be accomplished – in Russia everything has a propaganda aspect.

But Borisov’s words are the official confirmation of what, to foreign observers, had been obvious for a long time: the PAK FA’s delivery to frontline units will not be accomplished within the original scheduled time.

The delay has been caused by a mix of technical and financial problems. Despite the country’s developing economic crisis, funding for the PAK FA has been untouched so far. The Russians have cut expenditure on new military projects that exist only in paper form – equipment actually undergoing trials, like the PAK FA, is being funded as before

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Jun 2015 18:53

>>Very hard to believe that Modi would like 154 of these planes. ?????

Why not. If its available, it will be a bruiser.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Jun 2015 18:59

Philip wrote:One Q that has puzzled me,why the IAF obsession with twin-seat aircraft? Surely as avionics get smarter,the need for a second pilot reduces and it simply adds to the life-cycle cost all the way down to an extra family to support, pensions, etc.

It also boils down to what role is the aircraft designed to serve. Two seater MiG-29s in the IAF are used primarily for conversion training, while all Rambhas are two seaters. The former is primarily meant for air defence (when it was purchased in the 80s) but now with the upgrade, can also undertake a broader range of missions. While the Rambha is an air dominance fighter - and the IAF even calls it so - it has a very potent strike role. The youtube interviews of Rambha pilots in the IAF do extol the virtue of the twin seat concept, with the Weapon Systems Operator playing a key role. As much as I would like the IAF to take two seat Katrinas - considering that Dassault markets it as an omnirole fighter and it has proven itself in combat theatres like Libya - it again boils down to what purpose is the aircraft going to be used in the IAF. Also, while avionics do get smarter and 4+ gen combat aircraft can fly themselves, the amount of information a pilot has to analyze today is mind boggling. A second pair of eyes is always useful. That is not to say that a single seat aircraft cannot do what the Rambha does, albeit not necessarily at the same level of capability. The Mirage 2000 is a classic example.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Jun 2015 19:28

Karan M wrote:>>Very hard to believe that Modi would like 154 of these planes. ?????

Why not. If its available, it will be a bruiser.

"If its available" .................... IMHO, being generous. But, let us see.

The problem - as I see it - is one of funds. I just do not believe that it has met their own expectations. And lack of forthrightness.

Saving grace, again IMHO, will be that the Chinese are blowing hot air about their "5th Gen" plane.

I just do not think this is the way to slide into a "5th Gen" effort.

As I have stated before, the PAK-FA is - to me - only better than a MKI. The only reason I would consider it. Else I would walk across the tarmac to the AMCA.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Jun 2015 22:35

"If its available" .................... IMHO, being generous. But, let us see.

The problem - as I see it - is one of funds. I just do not believe that it has met their own expectations. And lack of forthrightness.

Saving grace, again IMHO, will be that the Chinese are blowing hot air about their "5th Gen" plane.

I just do not think this is the way to slide into a "5th Gen" effort.

As I have stated before, the PAK-FA is - to me - only better than a MKI. The only reason I would consider it. Else I would walk across the tarmac to the AMCA.

The MKI is a fine aircraft and has more than held its own against aircraft supposedly much newer.

The PAK-FA will be streets ahead of the MKI.

It will require $6 Billion from our side. As long as we work in parallel on our own AMCA.

The main thing is support. This is where the Russians need to up their game.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 24 Jun 2015 05:39

NRao wrote:As I have stated before, the PAK-FA is - to me - only better than a MKI. The only reason I would consider it. Else I would walk across the tarmac to the AMCA.

+1 Putting it another way, at the moment PAK/FA looks like a 'Silent MKI' rather than a true 5G.

I don't know how many 'get out of jail' cards the Russians have but it seems they have played quite a few already:

1. Vikramaditya + MiG 29Ks
2. MiG 29 engines
3. T-90s
4. The SU-30MKI spares fiasco.

The Russians have deliberately kept us out of the loop to hide the fact the engines don't work and the avionics are not there yet. This is all before the all important supply chain they have not even even begun to think about.

The PAK/Fa IMVVVVHGO, is another 'Viky' we think we can afford (paging Bade here

) monetarily and ideologically only to discover that we paid more for it than it was worth, which was not not a lot.

Go with the AMCA with anyone but HAL/ADA/GTRE. Clean sheet. Enlist the best young minds in a guru-free environment devoid of extension seeking babus. Don't go cheap. Go for the best you can deliver...in a timely manner.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jun 2015 06:59

The PAK-FA will be streets ahead of the MKI

1) Dump the MKI. No more purchases and no MLU.
2) The PAK-FA is 50% 5th gen. It needs a lot of work to make it complete

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Jun 2015 07:16

The PAKFA may be 50% 5th generation (or it may be 80% or 100% for all we know, since its a wait and see approach since there is aproximately 5/6th of testing to go, and plenty of money to be spent to get it fully developed), but as long as there is no real alternative its capability and cost must be looked at with alternatives in mind. The only thing that can challenge that is the AMCA and if the path to it is smooth and well planned out the risk of a less than desired capability vis-a-vis the PAKFA may well be reduced. Otherwise you buy what you can to support and eventually replace the MKI, as long as you can afford it and it offers better capability

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Jun 2015 12:51

NRao wrote:
The PAK-FA will be streets ahead of the MKI
1) Dump the MKI. No more purchases and no MLU.

Why? That's a ridiculous decision or stance to take, are you paying for this quixotic approach. The US is busy upgrading its much much older Eagles and Vipers. Do inform them to do likewise.
India has 270 Su-30 MKIs. Superb airframe, great performance and continued potential. Spares support an issue, improving. What we should do is to own the airframe further, which is where the Indian led upgrade and MLU come in, with Russian inputs for key items like the radars.

2) The PAK-FA is 50% 5th gen. It needs a lot of work to make it complete

I have no idea what you are going on about here. Do you have access to any real world test data or actual results beyond media reports on how much of the PAKFA is what gen? Besides, its still a prototype. Of course it needs a lot of work to make it work. So does the F-35.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Jun 2015 13:00

Cosmo_R wrote:The Russians have deliberately kept us out of the loop to hide the fact the engines don't work and the avionics are not there yet. This is all before the all important supply chain they have not even even begun to think about.

Err what? The engines "dont work", then how is it that the aircraft is flying and maintaining a test schedule? Besides, the future engine for the T-50 is a different one from what's on the airframe currently and has its own different program, even though the current one is fairly powerful and should suffice for a Mk1.

As regards avionics - look up NIIP and Russkaya Avionika sometime & their products. World class & achieved against incredible odds. NIIPs expertise in phased array radars is second to none & an AESA is well within their capabilities. The rest of the avionics system too is nothing to sneeze at.

Big Fighter, Big Glass
Posted by Bill Sweetman at 6/20/2007 3:14 AM

Sukhoi's Su-35, to be unveiled in August at the MAKS air show in Moscow, is the biggest revision yet of the company's heavyweight fighter. On show at Paris is a demonstration simulator of the fighter's redesigned cockpit, dominated by two 15-inch diagonal LCDs - more glass area than any other fighter cockpit, including that of the JSF. There are no mechanical displays in the cockpit, and the pilot interacts with the displays using a cursor control device on the stick and soft-key pushbuttons surrounding the glass.

The two screens are each split into four sub-windows, which are normally managed automatically according to the mission plan. Primary flight instruments are carried on the left side of the right-hand screen, with the left-hand screen being the primary display for maps and targeting information - so that the pilot can operate the screen with his left hand with the right hand on the stick.

According to Sukhoi engineer Alexey Mukhin, the Su-35 has a sensor-fusion avionics system which assigns each target a single identity - Sukhoi calls it a "passport" - and indicates which sensor or sensors have tracked it. The fighter also has an intra-flight datalink that can support four groups of four fighters simultaneously and share targeting information between them.

The Su-35 introduces integrated flight and propulsion control using three-dimensional thrust vectoring, providing full-envelope carefree handling with any combination of loads. It has electronic throttle controls and the system also manages the fuel load. One novel feature: when the pilot extends the refuelling probe, the aircraft automatically switches to a more stable flight control mode.

Missing from the new fighter is the big dorsal speedbrake of previous versions. Different combinations of control surface movements are used for deceleration, and the jet can make a 60-degree descent at a stabilized speed. Removing the speedbrake (plus some other changes) bumps the fighter's already impressive internal fuel capacity from 22,000 pounds to 25,300 pounds. The Su-35 should be ready for delivery in 2010.

PS: The T-50 has an integrated 3 array X band radar, and 2 Lband arrays. No other fighter today (or planned) has something firm in its roadmap. This alone will be a game changer.

Go with the AMCA with anyone but HAL/ADA/GTRE. Clean sheet. Enlist the best young minds in a guru-free environment devoid of extension seeking babus. Don't go cheap. Go for the best you can deliver...in a timely manner.

Good going, you just ensured, you won't have anything cheap, it won't be the best either (since the pool of expertise that India has, wont be tapped) and it definitely won't be available in a timely manner either, since the folks tapped for this, no matter how "best the young minds in a guru-free environment" are, they will have no clue of what to do and how to do it.

The real answer would be to give the above orgs the resources they require, get the IAF to work with them, and unshackle them from Dilli-giri and beancounting. And the results would come in.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Jul 2015 19:11

http://idrw.org/russia-further-reduces- ... more-67668

clearly, Indic money can't be going this way

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 02 Jul 2015 19:30

"The real answer would be to give the above orgs the resources they require, get the IAF to work with them, and unshackle them from Dilli-giri and beancounting. And the results would come in."

Good luck with that. The results will come in but not good ones.

BTW the PAk/FA engines don't work in the same way the MiG 29s did not for a long time. Also this

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1710005

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Jul 2015 21:18

Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation in 2016-2017 years will buy a squadron of fighter of the fifth generation - Deputy Minister
02/07/2015 11:17:40

St. Peterburg.2 July. Interfax-AVN - Plans in 2016-2017 to purchase a squadron of the fifth generation fighter T-50 (PAK FA) remained unchanged, said Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov.

"In 2016-2017 we will buy, as planned, a squadron of the PAK FA. It will be used as a combat unit," - said Yu.Borisov reporters on Thursday at the International Maritime Defense Show IMDS-2015 in St. Petersburg.

The deputy minister noted that the Russian Air Force will buy less PAK FA than originally planned, due to a larger number of purchased Su-35 fighters. "Flight performance and armament of the Su-35 in many respects superior to their foreign counterparts," - said Yu.Borisov.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Jul 2015 04:48

NRao wrote: 1) Dump the MKI. No more purchases and no MLU.
Why? That's a ridiculous decision or stance to take, are you paying for this quixotic approach. The US is busy upgrading its much much older Eagles and Vipers. Do inform them to do likewise.
India has 270 Su-30 MKIs. Superb airframe, great performance and continued potential. Spares support an issue, improving. What we should do is to own the airframe further, which is where the Indian led upgrade and MLU come in, with Russian inputs for key items like the radars.

If the sum of the two remains a constant (my assumption) and the PAK-FA > MKI, then why invest in the MKI any further than one has to, is my logic.

2) The PAK-FA is 50% 5th gen. It needs a lot of work to make it complete
I have no idea what you are going on about here. Do you have access to any real world test data or actual results beyond media reports on how much of the PAKFA is what gen? Besides, its still a prototype. Of course it needs a lot of work to make it work. So does the F-35.

I think we are on the same page.

My views/comments about the PAK-FA or the FGFA are based on what I have read in the Indian press (I do read some of the Russian sites in English, but have come not to trust them as much). So, yes: India wanted 40 some changes in the PAK-FA, PAK-FA flies but the "5th Gen" engine was supposed to be ready by 2019, data fusion, the continuing delay in India signing the next step, etc - are some of the contributing factors towards my view. Not a -ve in any way - just a statement.

On the F-35, true, it too has some ways to go, but, the FGFA has a longer way to go and have no clue where the PAK-FA actually is. But, the good news is that the F-35 has a ton more info about it out in open source than any other effort out there. I wish the FGFA had followed a similar path of disseminating information. Not concerned about what the Russians decide with the PAK-FA (info in open source).

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Jul 2015 06:42

Jul 1, 2015 :: Light combat aircraft: missing the MiG

A nice article on MiG's predicament, but a nugget on the PAK-FA:

Even the PAK FA project has turned into a heavy financial burden for the government, and the number of units it plans to purchase is being constantly reduced.

What is the number at now? 1 squadron of 18?

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 10 Jul 2015 08:18

From Saurav Jha on Twitter:
* Given that AMCA is now a certainty, more Rafales could end up being ordered if Russia doesn't bend on the FGFA.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Jul 2015 20:10

Hindu report today.The FGFA prog. is on track,the deal is to be wrapped during PM Modi's visit to Russia in Nov. Discussions were held on the sidelines of the BRICS summit.All details to be finalised by Sept.most of the deal work already done.The IAF want their pilots to fly the first prototypes undergoing evaluation/testing in Russia to familiarize themselves with the aircraft. 144 the number planned. Russia is supposed o induct the first T-50s in 2017. Earlier reports had indicated the IAF's wish to induct the aircraft before/by 2020.

If the report is accurate,then the other options/requirements for the IAF's fleet inventory will have to factor in the ramifications of the acquisition of the FGFA.

The deal for the second N-sub lease is also in final stages of negotiations,some reports indicating that it may be another improved Akula,but with Yasen features.Mr Modi's visit is going to see several defence deals wrapped up.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Jul 2015 05:21

Dunno.

Too many things up in the air. This smells of Modism. Cannot say that is very positive. Kick-the-can?

Fighter deal likely during Modi’s November visit to Russia

I think it will depend on if Putin can do yoga.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Jul 2015 05:33

SJha1618 wrote: Some Russian sources claim that with the current 117 engines the PAK-FA can supercruise at Mach 1.3. Our people find this doubtful.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Jul 2015 06:18

SJha wrote: If Su-35 is indeed on the menu for Pakistan then the Russians can say bye bye to FGFA. But it is extremely unlikely.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Jul 2015 22:48

Probably why we want our pilots to fly the prototypes to verify supercruise claims,etc.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Jul 2015 17:05

http://www.rt.com/news/261853-russia-fi ... b]Russia’s new T-50 fighter jet ‘almost a flying robot’ – developer [/b]
Published time: 25 May, 2015

Innovative technologies used in the Russia’s fifth generation T-50 fighter jet, which is currently undergoing tests before the start of production in 2016, makes it more of a flying robot than a plane, the developer said.

The Sukhoi PAK FA fighter jet, also known as T-50, is “already to some degree a flying robot, where the aviator fulfils the function not only of pilot, but is actually one of the constituent parts of the flying apparatus. That is, the reaction of the aviator is a part of the control loop,” Vladimir Mikheev, an advisor to the deputy head of the Radioelectronic Technologies Concern [KRET], said.

According to Mikheev, another innovative featured employed in the T-50 jet fighter is “smart paneling.”

"If we take the wingtip, from one perspective it functions as a wing, but from another it's also a part of the Himalaya active defense system," the official is cited by Sputnik news agency.

KRET, which is a unit of state-run Rostech Corporation, has delivered the batch of Himalaya systems for the aircraft in October last year.

“The unique system of active and passive radars and optical rangefinders is integrated into the aircraft body and acts as a 'smart skin'. Its use not only enhances the aircraft’s protection against jamming and its survivability, but also counters, to a great extent, the effects of low-observability [stealth] technology of enemy aircraft," the developer explained back then.

Previously, KRET said that T-50 is going to have the most advanced stealth capabilities, leaving even the only combat-ready fifth-generation fighter, the US Air Force's Lockheed F-22 Raptor, behind.

REAd MORE: India ready to spend $25bn on Russian 5G fighter jets

“The T-50 is now ahead of not only all other fighters of the Russian Army, but also foreign models. For example, the visibility of the American fifth-generation F-22 fighter is 0.3-0.4 square meters," the developer stressed.

The Sukhoi PAK FA’s visibility stands at between 0.1 and 1 square meters, KRET added.

Such high level of stealth was achieved by moving all weaponry s the inside of the jet and redesigning the shape of the air intake channel, which was also lined with a material that absorbs radio waves.

According to KRET, T-50 is the first jet fighter in the Russian Air Force to be “made from a high proportion of composite materials, making up 25 percent of the mass of the aircraft and covering 70 percent of its surface."

The T-50 is set to replace the Sukhoi Su-27 and Mig-29 fourth generation fighter jet, which entered service in 1985 and 1983, respectively.

Five T-50 jets have already been produced and three more are now under construction at the Sukhoi facilities in Komsomolsk-on-Amur in the Russian Far East, Vladislav Goncharenko, deputy director of the United Aircraft Corporation's (UAC's) combat aircraft department, said in December.

READ MORE: Russia to deploy fifth-gen fighters, S-500 missiles in 2016

The Russian Air Force plans to purchase 55 T-50 fighter jets between 2016 and 2020, Goncharenko said in December.
[/quote]

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jul 2015 18:44

“The T-50 is now ahead of not only all other fighters of the Russian Army, but also foreign models. For example, the visibility of the American fifth-generation F-22 fighter is 0.3-0.4 square meters," the developer stressed.

The Sukhoi PAK FA’s visibility stands at between 0.1 and 1 square meters, KRET added.

I would think such things are classified, however, these numbers prove one thing: that the F-22 has far better all aspect stealth than the PAK-FA. And that the PAK-FA , perhaps from the rear, has relatively bad stealth. Ten times as worse.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jul 2015 18:58

As a reference point, please read through this 2012 article.

New Imagery Details Indian Aura UCAV

this:

Saraswat's presentation at the Aerospace Forum there—where he described the IUSAV as an “unmanned bomber”—also revealed that IUSAV program laboratories were pursuing development of radar-absorbent paint and materials, cool exhaust signatures for infrared suppression, conformal sensors and antennas, data links and flying-wing aerodynamics. His presentation also illustrated elaborate threat scenarios involving future combat air systems, which included not just the IUSAV but also an indigenous fifth-generation stealth fighter, the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft, and the Indo-Russian fifth-generation fighter aircraft, or PAK FA.

Point being more time less reliance.

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 25 Jul 2015 23:20

I have been going through Russian forums on the PAKFA recently and it seems that it is confirmed that India will get 2 test planes in 208 (Could be a mistake of the translator, and also mean two aircraft for the Indian model).

And there seems to be chatter about a problem with the OBOGS on the PAK-FA which is limiting the rate of climb of the PAK-FA. Has anyone heard anything on this?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Jul 2015 02:40

Neither is a major news item right now.

The rumor was that Modi was supposed to have initiated talks this last visit. Now it is Nov.

Next Russian "side" always has been very positive. IL-476, MTA and the FGFA. If you track Indian sources they are not even close. So your observations are not surprising. But I would not take them seriously as yet.

On the problem, normal stuff with new gadgets. Just that we tend to be harsh based on our bias.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 26 Jul 2015 04:14

Austin wrote: To be fair off my head I remember Jags and M2K had their own Twin Seat variant that were both Type Conversion and Combat Capable...... I think we never had IFR probes for these types or got it removed.

IAF twin-seat M2k's have IFR probes.
Link

The twin-seater M2k's were used to drop LGB's during Kargil.

A typical bombing mission would involve 4 Mirages from 7 Squadron loaded with dumb bombs leaving a base in Punjab together with a two seat Mirage loaded with a LGB and Laser Designating pod. This 5 ship would rendezvous with 3 aircraft of 1 Squadron carrying Beyond Visual Range Weapons (Super 530D), operating out of another base. This rendezvous point would change on a mission to mission basis and once joined up, one escort aircraft would return. Once over Jammu and Kashmir they would be joined by Mig29’s giving top cover. These only had 20-minute duration in the area and would usually be supplemented by another pair. Over the target the Mirages with the dumb bombs would visually acquire the target and drop their bombs. The two seater, which would be filming the whole affair from behind, would only use the LGB if required to do so.

From here: The Mirage 2000 in Kargil

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Aug 2015 21:20

What exactly is an experimental design?

July 31, 2015 :: India, Russia to Resume Co-Development of 5th

Resume!!!

"The preliminary stage of the project was completed in June 2013 and the next phase of development will commence after we have signed off on the experimental design contract,” Manohar Parrikar said in a written answer to a pertinent question from two members of the lower house of parliament.

Trust deficit.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Aug 2015 18:57

Nearly Rs 1500 crore spent on preliminary design of Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft project: Government

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

In a written reply to Rajya Sabha, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said the preliminary design stage of the FGFA programme has been completed in June 2013 based on contract signed in December 2010 with the Russian side.

As per the Inter Governmental Agreement, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is the designated implementation organisation from Indian side. In turn, HAL is supported by DRDO, Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) and other Indian agencies.

The expenditure incurred so far on preliminary design stage of FGFA programme is Rs 1,483.15 crore," Parrikar said.

The next stage of development of FGFA will commence upon signing of the Research and Development contract.

As per the draft R&D contract, the delivery of FGFA to Indian Air Force has been envisaged to commence 94 months from the start of R&D contract.

"The contract has not been signed yet," Parrikar said.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 04 Aug 2015 19:35

Rs 1500 crore spent and not even a ride on importfa

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 04 Aug 2015 22:35

Just for reference -

[quote]In a written reply in Rajya Sabha, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today said the project for design and development of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas Mk-II was sanctioned in November 2009 at a cost of Rs 2431.55 crore with Probable Date of Completion (PDC) of December 2018. - Link[/quote]

That's the entire development budget for the Mk2.

Its nothing short of astounding (dare I say.. criminal?) that they managed to spend Rs 1,500 crores on the preliminary design of an aircraft, the eighth prototype of which is scheduled to fly before year-end.

Perhaps the DM is referring to allocated capital rather expended capital. <looks skyward palms folded>

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Aug 2015 21:54

Unique Capabilities of PAK FA Pilot’s Gear Unveiled

http://sputniknews.com/military/2015080 ... 54827.html

The new pilot gear can arguably be considered a technical revolution in the field.

The suit was specially designed to make the pilot feel comfortable during supersonic-speed flights. It is equipped with an anti-G system which features a hose for delivering air to the pilot.

The gear also features pockets for flight documents. In the abdominal area there is a metal plate which presses against the pilot’s body to maintain blood flow to the head.

The costume was developed and is being currently tested by Zvezda R&D center in the city of Tomilino, near Moscow.

In addition, the facility is also testing a pilot’s helmet, the most technically advanced part of the gear.

Produced of composite materials like the PAK FA aircraft itself, the helmet is extremely light and can withstand overloads during an ejection escape at speeds of over 1000 kmh.

The all-digital helmet is connected to all PAK FA’s on-board photo and video cameras and transmits all data to its visor. As a result, all actual flight information is always before the eyes of the pilot.When the pilot’s head moves the image [on the helmet display] changes respectively. What is more, the system is capable to detect the pupil’s movements for automatic targeting," one the developers told the TV channel Zvezda.

In addition, a new survival kit has been developed for the PAK FA pilots.

If the pilot has to eject and land in an unknown area this kit is his only chance to survive.

The survival pack contains a pan, antenna, signal mirror, 16 cubes of sugar, first aid kit, two match boxes, a signal pistol with charges, 1.5-liter bottle of water, machete knife, radio beacon, and portable radio.When necessary the container of the kit can be easily turned into a boat or a water-proof sleeping bag.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 10 Aug 2015 06:55