Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

[Singha]

Indian Navy fast-tracking Scorpene training programme

Rahul Bedi, New Delhi - IHS Jane's Navy International
07 July 2015

France's state-owned Defense Conseil International (DCI) will begin instructing Indian Navy (IN) crews in Mumbai from September, to operate six DCNS Scorpene diesel-electric submarines being licence-built by Mazagon Dockyard Limited (MDL).

IN spokesman Captain D K Sharma said a nine-member DCI training team would train two batches of 50 IN personnel - each over 11 months - on land, on board the Scorpenes in dock, and later, at sea.

Each IN Scorpene can accommodate a 31-man crew, including six officers, he said.

In May, 100 IN submariners returned from France after completing an 11-month DCI training course on the submarines, while in August 2014 DCNS completed a five-week training session for 45 IN and MDL personnel at Hyderabad, southern India, on Scorpene Platform Management and Steering Console operations.

[Cain Marko]

PS:Greek crisis.Opportunity knocks? I mentioned this a couple of years ago (tp pick them up) when there was a huge spat between Greece and Germany over the U-boats that Greece couldn't pay for,it alleged some flaws in the subs,blah,blah. With Greece now in a financial catastrophe,getting hard cash from anywhere is what it it is desperately looking for. India should make an offer to Greece to buy lock,stock and barrel,their new German U-boats at a discounted price.The Germans will only be too happy for us to do so,prospects of more to follow,and a couple of decades+ of support,spares,etc. to chew upon. Greece can always ask Russia for cut price Kilos,etc. bought outright our on lease to make up for its loss.They're much cheaper.

Philip, that's an interesting idea. A 10-year lease would probably be a better fit for both sides, though. The deal wouldn't be a perfect fit, but I think it's justified under the current threat environment.

Might as well make an offerr for their mirage 2000s as well could reduce Rafale numbers and be easily inducted as they are already at 2000-5 std.

[Singha]

would make sense only if HDW is chosen as P75I.

instead they have no less than 7 U209 subs most of which are upgraded. time to lease or buy some 4 of these to supplement our 4 U209 and work together as the anti-TSPN / scout element of the play.

free up all the Kilos and the scorpenes to hunt bigger meat in the east.

greece was the first user of the U209...all U209 around the world except the first greek boat from 1971 remain in service testament to the build quality.

[JTull]

Regarding the Kilo sub upgrade base plans the Russians are trying to make a virtue out of necessity knowing Hindustan Shipyards has now got the experience to do the work and if they bid aggressively for Kilo upgrade contracts in the future, the Russians would not be in any position to match on the cost factor.

I agree. But HSL is also making virtue of repairing one submarine in a decade. Even if they bid aggressively and land follow on orders, they're guaranteed to suffer from time and cost budgeting! Who will they blame next?

An Indian private shipyard is always held to a different standard than public sector shipyard or even a Russian one.

[SNaik]

what i really wanted was 2 Oscar subs armed with nirbhay and brahmos.

You don't need the huge Oscar for that, 971I can carry both with ease, launched from torpedo tubes.

[Singha]

^^ there is no TT launched version of the yakhont right? the yasen is carrying the kalibr in its ample vl cells i think.

---
defenceworld.net

The Indian Navy plans to buy additional four Boeing P-8I Maritime Surveillance andanti-submarine warfare Aircraft.

“The Cost Negotiating Committee (CNC) has recently completed the negotiations. The talks between the Navy and Boeing are at an advanced stage to add four more P-8I aircraft to an existing order of eight,” The Hindu daily quoted unnamed Defense Ministry official as saying Thursday.

“The CNC file would soon be sent to the Defense Ministry’s finance wing and then to the Finance Ministry for approval before the Cabinet Committee on Security headed by the Prime Minister,” the official said.

India had signed a $ 2.2 billion contract to purchase eight P-8Is in 2009 with an optional clause for four more. The negotiations to buy four more aircraft have been going on for a year. Seven of the eight aircraft ordered earlier have already been inducted for service. The eighth aircraft is scheduled for delivery by October.

[brar_w]

^^ http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Del ... 397262.ece

[wig]

N-sub INS Arihant to test-fire missile-New ICBM planned to match China’s growing arsenal

Altering India’s strategic offensive, nuclear-powered submarine INS Arihant will undergo its first-ever missile firing test this year, while separately a 10,000-km range nuclear missile is planned to match neighbour China’s growing arsenal.
The Defence Research Development and Organisation (DRDO) has proposed the new missile AGNI-VI that comes after the success of AGNI-V which is slated for a possible final test in December this year.
Dr S. Chirstopher, Director General of DRDO and Secretary Research and Development, told The Tribune on Thursday that India can have a missile that can travel a distance of 10,000 km, albeit with a smaller warhead than the AGNI-V.
“We have to now present our case to the government for explaining the need for such a missile”, Dr Chirstopher said while accepting that AGNI-VI is on the drawing board. This will be an Inter-Continental Ballatic Missile (ICBM) like AGNI-V.
Speaking about the Arihant, the indigenous nuclear-powered Submarine, Dr Chirstopher said “the vessel is slated for deep diving tests and the missile named ‘B-05’ is to be test-fired from the vessel. These tests will be done within this year”.
The B-05 missile is capable of carrying a nuclear-tipped warhead and is a medium-range missile, he said.
The DRDO chief said the long-range submarine-fired K-4 missile is not slated for testing now.
The AGNI-V possible last test slated in December could be its last before it’s inducted. “To declare a missile proven, we need three consecutive successful tests. In case the next test is okay, we can taper off the testing”. The missile can fire at targets 5,500 km away.
AGNI-V has undergone its last flight test in February this year. The first test was conducted on April 19, 2012, and the second test on September 15, 2013.
India has at present in its armoury of Agni series, Agni-1 with 700 km range, Agni-2 with 2,000 km range, Agni-3 and Agni-4 with 2,500 km to more than 3,500 km range.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 04454.html

[wig]

issues with the costing delaying procurement of naval helicopters

Efforts by the Navy’s to be better equipped to locate Chinese submarines in the Indian Ocean through specialised helicopters seem to have hit a roadblock, at least for the moment.
The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has ordered fresh cost-negotiation with US firm Sikorsky, selected through a tender in December last, for the supply of 16 multi-role helicopters.
In December last, the Navy had selected Sikorsky’s S-70B Seahawk, a 10-tonne twin-engine helicopter. It has advanced anti-ship and anti-submarine warfare capability.
To be based on warships, these copters will carry submarine-locating buoys, which are dunked in the sea to capture the noise of undersea vessels. The correct location allows a copter to fire a missile at a submarine.
Top sources told The Tribune that cost was “surely an issue”. The tender was first floated in 2007 and the company had expressed its inability to supply the copters at the then prevailing cost.
Sources said the “acceptance of necessity” for the copters was made by the MoD in 2006-07, assuming Rs900 crore as the cost of these 16 copters, which was later revised to Rs1,760 crore. The current cost of such copters is estimated to be between Rs3,500 crore and Rs4,000 crore, said sources.
The cost-negotiation committee will now need approval from the MoD to re-negotiate at fresh benchmarks prices, ignoring the figures decided in 2006-07.
At present, the Navy has a fleet 16 Westland Sea King Mk42B/C anti-submarine helicopters of the 1980s vintage, of which 12 are operational at any point in time. Another 10 Kamov-28 copters are being upgraded by Russia.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 04343.html

[Philip]

Most interesting.Some time ago Russia evaluated both Pip and L&T's facilities for sub building.Theys aid that both possessed good infrastructure but that L&T had a better skilled workforce.Since L&T are already heavily involved in the ATV programme,it is more likely that L&T will be given more work for both the SSBN and SSN programmes.Pipavav could thus be earmarked for building/support for conventional subs like the Kilos,with considerable foreign work for navies operating Russian subs in the Indo-Asia-Pacific region,while MDL will perhaps concentrate on building Scorpenes,support for them plus any other Western subs that we may acquire. There was some talk about G-to-G discussions with the Germans about U-boats.

Russia wants to make India a global hub for submarine upgrade, maintenance and repair

By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | 9 Jul, 2015,
READ MORE ON » Zvyozdochka shipyard | Vietnam | Subma ..
ST PETERSBURG: Russia says that it wants to make India a global hub for the upgrade, maintenance and repair of conventional submarines and its leading shipyard is in final talks to select an Indian joint venture partner for a mega project to set up facilities here.

With contracts worth several thousand crores in the offing for the upgrade of Russian origin diesel electric submarines — several from the Indian Navy itself — the joint venture has the potential of making the selected Indian shipyard a serious player in the international market.

Officials from the state-run Zvyozdochka shipyard told ET that a memorandum of understanding could be signed within a month as it is in final talks with an Indian partner for the project. Russian engineers have already visited the Indian yard and advised it on changes to be made as well as investments needed to execute the project.

"We are in the process of negotiating with an Indian shipyard and if these negotiations are successful, it could become our partner for future tasks of modernising Kilo class submarines. Not just for India but for third nations as well," Evgeny V Shustikov, Deputy Director General of Zvyozdochka told ET.

While the Russian side is reluctant to share details, it is learnt that several rounds of talks have taken place between Zvyozdochka and the Gujarat-based Pipavav Shipyard that has recently been bought over by Anil Ambani's Reliance. A final round of talks are expected to take place in August.

Explaining the project, Shustikov says that the Russian side is looking at a joint venture model with partners in India who can execute work orders from the region. India alone is looking at the imminent second life extension of at least four Kilo class submarines. This would give the fleet almost 15 more years of service life. "Our estimate is that we will be loaded with work for at least 15-20 years," Shustikov says.

Other nations that operate Kilos in the region include Iran with three submarines of the same class and Nigeria with six. In addition, Russia has recently sold six upgraded Kilo class submarines to Vietnam that will require overhauling and repairs in the coming years and is pursuing several other orders in the region.

"India could become a second center in the world for Kilo class upgrade. For certain nations it is easier to send the submarine for repair to India than to any other place. It is also a good chance for India to master the repair and upgrade of this class of vessel," Andrey Baranov, deputy CEO Rubin design bureau that has designed the Kilo class, told ET.
(This reporter was in St Petersburg on the invitation of United Shipbuilding Corporation)

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

Related sub news.
Maldivian Parliament Summons Defence Minister Over Incursion Of Chinese Submarine
Ahmed Ahmed/Minivan News | Male (Maldives) | Updated: July 8, 2015
http://focusnews.com/world/maldivian-pa ... ine/76516/

Defence minister Moosa Ali Jaleel has been summoned to parliament to answer whether a Chinese Yuan class 335 submarine entered Maldivian territorial waters between March 31 and May 22.

Eva Abdulla, an MP with the main opposition Maldivan Democratic Party (MDP), submitted the questions to parliament on Wednesday. Under parliamentary rules, a 14-day notice must be given for minister’s to appear for questioning.

An Indian newspaper India Today reported on June 27 that “China’s deadliest attack submarine” crossed the Arabian Sea and entered Karachi port on May 22.

ALSO READ: Maldives Political Reconciliation Talks: Third Meeting Cancelled

The submarine is reportedly equipped with torpedoes, anti-ship missiles and air-independent propulsion.

“Beijing’s first-ever deployment of a submarine to Pakistan signals a new cat-and-mouse game in the region,” India Today observed.

According to the magazine, Indian navy chief Admiral RK Dhowan told reporters in New Delhi on May 28 that India was “minutely” monitoring Chinese naval activity in the Indian Ocean and “signalled the start of a new great game over the world’s most important water body.”

China’s rising presence in the Indian Ocean region has stoked concerns in New Delhi that the rival Asian power is creating a ‘string of pearls’ to encircle India, including Chinese investments in ports and other key projects in Sri Lanka and Pakistan.

The questions submitted by Eva ask the minister if the Chinese submarine was granted leave to enter Maldives’ territorial waters and if the security forces are aware if the submarine had entered the Maldives’ territorial waters without prior permission.

The docking of two Chinese submarines in a Sri Lankan port in November last year sparked concerns in New Delhi. The new Sri Lankan government in February pledged to ensure such incidents will not be repeated.

During an official visit to China last month – his second since assuming office in November 2013 – President Abdulla Yameen declared that Sino-Maldives relations are at an “all-time high” with the establishment of a cooperative partnership between the countries last year.

ALSO READ: Maldives Threatens To Leave The Commonwealth, Again

President Xi Jinping in his historic state visit in September invited the Maldives to “journey with China on the high-speed bullet train to progress and prosperity,” President Yameen said in a keynote address delivered at the opening ceremony of the 10th China-South Asia Business Forum on June 12.

The Maldives has also become one of the first partners in the Chinese ‘Maritime Silk Route’ initiative and a founding member of the Chinese-led new Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB).

In September last year, former President Mohamed Nasheed criticised the decision to join the Silk Route initiative, contending that it would threaten Indian Ocean security.

In January, the Chinese embassy in the Maldives denied Nasheed’s suggestions that the Maldivian government is planning to hand over large parts of Laamu Atoll to China for a military base.

“It is a common knowledge that China pursues a national defense policy that is defensive in nature,” the Chinese embassy said.

“China does not maintain any military in any foreign country”.(What about Gwadar?)

The opposition leader had alleged that the Maldives was to hand over large parts of the southern atoll to China for a military base on a 99-year lease, in exchange for US$2 billion.

ALSO READ: Maldives Vice President Mohamed Jameel Urges India To Take Note Of Political Crisis

India Today meanwhile noted that China is planning to sell eight Yuan class submarines to Pakistan within the next few years.

“According to a New York-based Council on Foreign Relations report, Pakistan has the fastest growing nuclear programme in the world. Its arsenal, built with the help of Chinese technology, stands at between 100 and 120 warheads, compared with China’s 250 and India with between 90 and 100,” the magazine reported.

[Philip]

Viv while whining at the Gorky deal ad nauseum (reasons well known) ,seems to have conveniently forgotten about the ultra-expensive extra costs for the Scorpene deal,signed.sealed and not delivered! One can understand a reasonable increase in price for Sikorsky's helos,,but three times the price Viv? Why such special favours for the Yanquis? The MOD official quoted said himself that this was "unacceptable". Was he whining just for fun?

I don't think that the Kilo is being touted for the 75I programme.The facts are that with Vietnam alone operating 6 new upgraded Kilos,getting training from India as well,these subs would be better maintained and supported by Indian yards ,closer to Vietnam,also because Russian sub-building yards are choc-a-bloc with orders from Russia itself.Its N-sub and conventional sub orders,plus upgrades of legacy Soviet era N-subs whose double-hulls have 40+ years of life left in them, are huge.Two new classes of N-subs apart from the Yasen-2 and Borei classes to be built.Details posted in the Intl. naval td.

The IN will have at least 6-8 Kilos operational for another decade+,6 with Vietnam,4 with Iran and more with Nigeria,at least 20 Kilos to maintain,repair and support for around 2 decades.Quite a large number!

The German U-boats that Greece has could easily be bought/leased by the IN,the Greeeks would be happy to have the moolah and as said,with its increasingly close relationship with Russia,could get a few Russian subs on lease or on the cheap in return. I proposed this around 2-3 years ago when the Greeks couldn't pay for their new U-214s. We should've stepped in then,since the Scorpene prog. was in crisis and is only now turning around. Not too late.

[wig]

Arihant will file n capable missile and conduct deep diving tests

Nuclear-powered submarine, INS Arihant, will undergo its first-ever underwater missile firing test and also conduct deep diving tests this year. The missile, code named ‘B-05’, is of medium-range variety capable of carrying a nuclear-tipped warhead, making it New Delhi’s first Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile (SLBM).
INS Arihant is classified as a ship submersible ballistic, nuclear (SSBN) submarine. In comparison, China has five such operational SSBNs and the range of Beijing’s missile is much more than ‘B-05’.
Director-General of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Secretary (Research and Development), Dr S Chirstopher, told The Tribune today: “INS Arihant will go for deep sea diving this year and along with a series of tests, we would like to test B-05”.
On being asked if it will be a strategic weapon carrying nuke tipped warhead, the scientist said: “Yes, it is capable”. But he did not mention that ‘B-05’ can carry one-tonne warhead and will be launched by the submarine while being underwater, hence classified as (SLBM).
On future plans, he said the DRDO has proposed a new missile ‘AGNI-VI’ with a range of 10,000 km, albeit with a smaller warhead than ‘AGNI-V’. “It’s at the thinking stage. We still do not have the sanction to make it but have the capability. We have to now present our case to the government explaining the need for such a missile,” he said.
China’s inter-continental ballistic missiles (ICBMs) like the Dongfeng-21 have a range of about 11,000 km. A missile that can travel more than 5,500 km is classified as an ICBM. Dr Christopher, on being asked if the forthcoming test of the AGNI-V is the final one, said: “It will depend on the outcome. We normally look at three consecutive tests”.
On the progress of the advanced air defence (AAD) interceptor missile and the ballistic missile defence (BMD) shield, Dr Christopher said: “We are nearing the completion stage. We are looking at a small variation and working on that. Once AAD is perfected, it will complete the BMD”.
An AAD interceptor missile is integral to the BMD capable of tracking and destroying hostile missiles in both endo-atmospheric (below an altitude of 30 km) and exo-atmospheric (above an altitude of 80 km) region.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 04772.html

[Kersi D]

[quote"Philip"]Most interesting.Some time ago Russia evaluated both Pip and L&T's facilities for sub building.Theys aid that both possessed good infrastructure but that L&T had a better skilled workforce.Since L&T are already heavily involved in the ATV programme,it is more likely that L&T will be given more work for both the SSBN and SSN programmes.Pipavav could thus be earmarked for building/support for conventional subs like the Kilos,with considerable foreign work for navies operating Russian subs in the Indo-Asia-Pacific region,while MDL will perhaps concentrate on building Scorpenes,support for them plus any other Western subs that we may acquire. There was some talk about G-to-G discussions with the Germans about U-boats.
[quote]

Philip. L&T and Russians have been talking to work together since a very long time.
K

[uddu]

As long as we are depending on foreign suppliers in any capacity, there will be delays. Example
http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... e-ministry

Until and unless we have the full capability in building something on our own with or without collaboration and all the players are from within India, there is no way, we can overcome price escalations and delays. This applies all over.

[Austin]

Apologies - My mistake. It is INS SindhuRaj (and not SindhuRakshak which suffered an accident). Today was repeat telecast. I will rewatch to get the clarity on 55 vs 90 .

Here is the video - http://www.newsnation.in/special-progra ... w-25/12851

Thanks for the link.

Quite interesting internal footage of Kilo , this is an upgrade Kilo as many new C&C seen there.

Only the Captain has a dedicated room in kilo the rest share bunks. Captain/CO have their own dedicated console where they can control all operations in Kilo. Simulated combat was show. Can dive in a minute or 2 down to 50 m in emergency mode.

The 90 crew part came when the chef mentioned he can cook for 90 people from this kitchen ....so its more of capability to serve that number and not the actual crew Kilo carries.

Lot of unrelated footage of Chakra , LA , Typhoon etc on surface that are not related to Kilo.

[Singha]

the 90 people thing maybe emergency mode to rescue survivors of sunken vessels followed by 2-3 days back to base or until it meets a ship. people would have to lie down in the corridors and store rooms to fit in that many.

[Philip]

Fantastic news if this is accurate! A slightly smaller Yasen variant would be a great boost to the IN's offensive UW capability.The same design could also perhaps be the one used to build the "6 SSNs" at home. This would give us an unrivalled N-sub capability in the Indo-Asia-Pacific region,barring the RuN and USN.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... rine-13297

Zachary Keck
July 10, 2015
India and Russia are in the final stages of talks for Delhi to lease another nuclear attack submarine from Moscow.

According to India’s Economic Times, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Vladimir Putin will discuss the deal on the sidelines of the BRICS Leadership Summit currently being held in Ufa, Russia.

“Several sources related to the project that ET spoke with confirmed that talks on leasing a new submarine under the 'Chakra 3' project are in advanced stages and that the issue will be discussed during Prime Minister Modi's visit to Russia this week,” the report said.

There has been previous signs that India intends to lease a second Russian-built nuclear attack submarine (SSK). And, during a trip to India last year, Vladimir Putin indicated that Russia would be interested in such a deal.

However, the new Economic Times report said that in contrast to previous Indo-Russian submarine deals, under the “Chakra 3” project, Russia will build India a customized submarine. The report speculates that the boat may be one of Russia’s new Yasen-class submarines, or else a derivative with a similar design.

"The final shape is yet to be decided, but it is now almost certain that a 'greenfield' submarine will be built," ET quotes an unnamed source close to the program as saying.

A Yasen-like submarine would be a significant boost to India’s depleted undersea fleet. As Kyle Mizokami has observed on The National Interest: “The Yasen class is one of the most advanced submarines in the world. The class reportedly has a crew of only ninety, implying a high level of automation. A 200MW nuclear reactor is thought to power the submarine to a maximum speed of 35 to 40 knots, with a ‘quiet operating speed’ of 20 knots.”

Regarding weaponry, Mizokami pointed out that: “The Yasen class has eight vertical launch tubes, four 650mm torpedo tubes and four standard-diameter 533mm torpedo tubes. Besides standard guided torpedoes, Yasen will almost certainly be armed with the Shkval supercavitating torpedo, capable of traveling at 200 knots to ranges from 7 to 13 kilometers.”

India is currently in the process of trying to revamp its submarine fleet, which has been battered by a number of mishaps in recent years. For starters, India is trying to build nuclear-powered ballistic missile (SSBNs) to serve as the sea-based leg of its strategic deterrence.

[arun]

Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Hua Chunying's Regular Press Conference on July 10, 2015 …………

Q: In recent years, the Chinese navy has been conducting exercises and visiting ports in the Indian Ocean more frequently, a move that has raised concerns from India. The Indian government is deploying more aircrafts and ships to the Andaman Islands as a response. What is China's comment? Should India worry about China's strategic intentions in the Indian Ocean? What role does the Indian Ocean play in China's own national security?

A:Your question is logically flawed. With ever-deepening ties and expanded cooperation in various fields between China and South Asian countries, there are also increased friendly exchanges in the military field. It is an international practice for some Chinese naval missions to visit ports of other countries and have stops and supplies there, which is also conducive to regional peace and stability.

In fact, China maintains a sound and rapid momentum of development with South Asian countries in recent years, including India. President Xi Jinping and Prime Minister Modi just had a friendly and constructive meeting in Ufa. Our bilateral political trust is deepening and cooperation in various fields is advancing. We also maintain good communication and coordination on regional and international issues. In the context of globalization, the security and stability of the Indian Ocean region bears on the common interests of all countries. China is ready to conduct maritime cooperation and dialogue with relevant countries including India to jointly play a constructive role in upholding peace, stability and development of the Indian Ocean. We will continue to live in harmony and pursue common development and prosperity with all South Asian countries on the basis of the five principles of peaceful coexistence.

Clicky

[Austin]

Indian Navy officials accuse MoD of dragging feet in S-70B purchase

[Bade]

Does the Chakra-3 means the request to Japan went but got no response from them ?

[Viv S]

Viv while whining at the Gorky deal ad nauseum (reasons well known) ,seems to have conveniently forgotten about the ultra-expensive extra costs for the Scorpene deal,signed.sealed and not delivered! One can understand a reasonable increase in price for Sikorsky's helos, but three times the price Viv? Why such special favours for the Yanquis?

That's a pile of BS. What is the price paid by the Indian exchequer for the 'increase' in the S70's cost? That would be zero rupees and zero paise.

What part of - we haven't signed a contract with Sikorsky, are you finding hard to grasp?

The MOD official quoted said himself that this was "unacceptable". Was he whining just for fun?

What stops the MoD from ordering NH-90 from Airbus instead if its a cheaper alternative? The answer is 'nothing'.

That's how the free market works, and it works well. But the cornerstone of the free market, is all parties respecting the sanctity of a contract. The Gorshkov & T-90 (and to lesser extent even the MiG-29 & Su-30MKI) involved a flagrant breach of contract by one side. And your suggestion if I recall, was to send a delegation of MPs to Putin, to beg him to intercede.

DCNS exploited a poorly drafted contract (by the MoD), to get a much bigger payout. What it did not do, at any point, is decide to tear up a signed contract and present a new set of take-it-or-leave terms.

[Prem]

France and Russia reached a deal over the cancelled $1.3 billion Mistral warship agreement

http://www.ibtimes.com/france-russia-mi ... z3fWCGrQQd

Russia and France have reached a tentative agreement on compensation payable to Moscow as a result of Paris' decision to cancel the delivery of two Mistral helicopter carriers.The cancellation of the Mistral deal reportedly will cost France about $1.3 billion. The agreement still must be signed by both Russian President Vladimir Putin and French President Francois Hollande, according to media reports.France canceled the delivery of the two Mistral ships in November 2014. France may be able to sell the ships to the U.S. or another NATO ally, although no buyer yet has been identified. Maintenance of the ships could be costing French taxpayers millions of euros a month, leading some to suggest that the cheapest option would be to sink them.

Will India take the bait or wait to get it for scrap price.

[JTull]

France and Russia reached a deal over the cancelled $1.3 billion Mistral warship agreement

http://www.ibtimes.com/france-russia-mi ... z3fWCGrQQd

Russia and France have reached a tentative agreement on compensation payable to Moscow as a result of Paris' decision to cancel the delivery of two Mistral helicopter carriers.The cancellation of the Mistral deal reportedly will cost France about $1.3 billion. The agreement still must be signed by both Russian President Vladimir Putin and French President Francois Hollande, according to media reports.France canceled the delivery of the two Mistral ships in November 2014. France may be able to sell the ships to the U.S. or another NATO ally, although no buyer yet has been identified. Maintenance of the ships could be costing French taxpayers millions of euros a month, leading some to suggest that the cheapest option would be to sink them.

Will India take the bait or wait to get it for scrap price.

India always gets these for free!

And then, pay multiples of a new ship to modify and for the service contracts.

[Philip]

The controversies about the Gorky deal were amicable resolved by both countries.Russia also offered to return the money we'd paid and induct the carrier into their own navy if we didn't want to proceed further. Both sides admitted mistakes on their part by both underestimating the huge amt. of work involved in a full conversion of a cruiser-carrier into a regular flat top,something never done thus far in any navy.So why are you still flogging a dead horse? The simple fact is that you cannot stomach anything of Russian origin ,your bias shows itself,whereas I am happy with acquisitions from any country,"horses for courses" the mantra, as long as it has been put through a decent acquisition process involving the services,MOD,GOI.Who negotiated the Scorpene deal and goofed up? The French or us? .

Delays cost-overruns by other western entities do not seem to concern you with other orders/deals in the pipeline.You now want us to pay Sikorsky three times the price of the helos. They're taking advantage because of the earlier ban on AW,when they were the only ones left in the ring.The ban on AW has now been lifted,the GOI have thus other options,but it will mean further delays. Sikorsky can choose to seal a deal or snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.Even kamov have been read the riot act reg. their increased costs for KA-28 upgrades.The GOI/MOD is playing fair on all counts.

We all have our own individual opinions,whether they are palatable to some or not,but that is guaranteed by the Indian Constitution,like it or lump it!.If one disagrees do so politely

Mahindra join forces with Ultra Electronics UK to support Indian Navy
http://www.naval-technology.com/news/ne ... vy-4619108

Good to see the increasing importance being given to the IN's UW needs.

9 July 2015
Mahindra Defence Naval Systems has partnered with Ultra Electronics UK for the development of underwater warfare equipment for the Indian Navy.

The new collaboration will build and deliver new-generation advanced systems, including the new torpedo defence system (NTDS), integrated anti-submarine warfare defence suite (IADS), and mine counter-measure (MCM) equipment.

The companies will focus on other programmes, including systems for anti-submarine warfare (ASW) vessels, submarine safety equipment, sonobuoys, and underwater ranges.

Mahindra Defence Naval Systems chairman SP Shukla said: "The Indian Navy has been importing a major part of underwater war fighting equipment from abroad to service its needs.

"We expect to provide cutting edge technology to the Indian Navy in this field in partnership with Ultra Electronics."

The partnership will also address the requirement of specialised radios for the Indian Army's tactical communication systems.

"We expect to provide cutting edge technology to the Indian Navy in this field in partnership with Ultra Electronics."

In a separate development, Ultra Electronics' Staffordshire-based PMES business secured £18m a contract from Rolls-Royce for the design and development of reactor control and cooling systems for the UK Royal Navy submarines.

The new contract will support Rolls-Royce in its delivery of the next-generation propulsion power system for the future submarine fleet.

Recently, Mahindra Defence agreed to collaborate with Airbus Helicopters to manufacture helicopters domestically to meet India's military requirements.

As part of this development, both firms will establish a new joint venture company, which would become the first private Indian helicopter builder under the country's 'Make in India' initiative.

The JV is expected to act as the prime contractor for the country's military helicopter tenders, including the reconnaissance and surveillance helicopter, the naval utility helicopter and the naval multirole helicopter procurement programmes.

[Kersi D]

The controversies about the Gorky deal were amicable resolved by both countries.

Did we have a choice but to "amicably" agree with Russia regarding price and delivery ?

Russia also offered to return the money we'd paid and induct the carrier into their own navy if we didn't want to proceed further.

How generous !! Was it including the interest on LIBOR rates ?

In simple language, "Russia's offer to return the money" is called BLACKMAIL

K

[Kersi D]

DCNS exploited a poorly drafted contract (by the MoD), to get a much bigger payout. What it did not do, at any point, is decide to tear up a signed contract and present a new set of take-it-or-leave terms.

Are these contracts drafted poorly through ignorance or intentionally ?

Considering that we are the world's largerd importer of arms, we should be experts in such ( poor ??? ) contracts.

My wicked mind tells me that they must be drafted intentionally with loop holes to be used later. I believe some municipal corp have such contracts to benefit the chosen contractors, hand-in-glove will all concerned.

K

[Philip]

The Gorky deal was a classic case of how not to negotiate a deal.Pl. study the facts carefully before jumping to conclusions. The IN was desperate for a new carrier to keep its aviation skills alive,there were no other options at that time in history other than the Varyag and Gorky.Ex RN Harrier carriers were too small and the SH development was a dead end,with the UK abandoning all further STOVL development.

The carrier was built in the UKR,which after the collapse of the SU saw its own shipbuilding capability deteriorate. The Varyag was too large,unable for our ports/bases to support it,had large hull problems and would've been far more expensive to rehabilitate then the Gorky. The GOI also took some years to finally make up its mind,while the carrier gradually deteriorated further.When the carrier was being modernised,the UKR was reportedly also unable to provide plans,etc. resulting in underestimating the work required,esp. the cost of new cabling,ets. for the whole ship. From reports at the commissioning of the carrier,it has been officially said that the carrier is virtually a brand new one,with almost all of its eqpt. replaced. Both countries acknowledged mistakes made by them in estimation of the work,etc. We could've walked away if we felt that it was too much to complete the ship with our money returned.There is no blackmail in that.Look at the actions of the French and the Mistrals they built for Russia. They've refused to hand over the ships.That is blackmail! We were given the option of scuttling the deal,but the Russians were not.

We finally found an amicable solution acceptable to both sides. If you look at the cost and time taken for constructing our very own IAC by comparison, you will find that the Gorky deal /costs were not excessive and we now have a superb carrier that will last us at least 3 decades,giving us an advantage in the IOR for at least a decade before the PLAN get their new carriers and try and challenge us. We can only learn lessons from the Gorky deal which is now over and done with.

In comparison,the Scorpene deal was for brand new subs,no issue about rehabilitation.modernisation,etc. We had already built German U-boats under licence in a deal similar to the Scorpene,other than the fact that the first two were built in Germany,so why couldn't we have followed the same formula? DCNS was able to blackmail us because the first subs were being built IN India,not in France which would've had to complete the subs or scrap them had we walked out of the deal.Here we had no alternative but to go through with the excessive fees demanded by the French.

As for the Mistrals,if the French have no use for them,NATO cannot afford them,here is a chance that we may be able to get them on the cheap,with the EU having to bail out Greece needing hard cash. We too require 4 amphibs planned for,and could acquire at least one of the two vessels. We could buy them or even lease them first until we have the hard cash to do so,as the IN's sub needs are the priority at the moment.

PS:More on the Scorpene saga here,ck the link for fuller details.
India’s Project 75 SSKs: Too Late to Save the Submarine Force?
Jul 09, 2015
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/in ... ted-01194/

July 9/15: India is reportedly engaged in talks external link with Russia over a possible nuclear submarine leasing agreement. The topic is scheduled to be included on a list of topics to be discussed between India’s Modi and Vladimir Putin when the Indian PM visits Moscow next week. It is likely that instead of leasing a third Akula-class attack sub from the Russians to complement the existing leased subs, the Modi government will look to lease a more modern Yasen-class sub external link, or a customized variant of a different class. Russia recently announced that it will upgrade its own Akula-class external link fleet, also recently laying-down a fifth Yasen-class boat.

The above update is a recent abstract from our full article, itself part of our subscription offering. Keep reading to know more.DII

India’s submarine fleet currently consists of 16 boats: 10 Russian SSK Kilo (Sindhugosh) Class, 4 locally built SSK U209 (Shishumar) Class, a leased nuclear-powered Improved Akula Class SSN from Russia (INS Chakra), and its own INS Arihant SSBN. Most of the Kilos have been modernized, but readiness rates for India’s existing submarine fleet sits below 40%, and the U209s will have trouble lasting much beyond 2015. With Pakistan acquiring modern submarines, and Chinese submarine building exploding, expanding India’s submarine fleet became an obvious national priority.

In 2005, India confirmed that it would buy 6 Franco-Spanish Scorpene diesel submarines, with an option for 6 more and extensive technology transfer agreements. Unfortunately, 7 years after that deal was signed, “Project 75″ has yet to field a single submarine. A poor Indian procurement approach, and state-run inefficiency, are pushing the country’s entire submarine force toward an aging crisis. This DID FOCUS article covers the Scorpene deal and its structure, adds key contracts and new developments, and offers insights into the larger naval picture within and beyond India.

[Philip]

Just a few months old,report.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2015/04 ... andal.html

Submarines: Indian Scorpene Scandal Sizzles
Wednesday, April 08, 2015 by Indiandefense News

India's First Scorpene Submarine INS Kalvari Launched For Sea Trials,Commissioning In 2016

India's effort to build six French Scorpene submarines under license has been delayed once again. That previous delay was in late 2014 when India said the first Scorpene would enter service in late 2016. Before that (2012) it was announced that the first Scorpene sub would not be ready until 2015. The most recent delays (caused by problems procuring components) will delay the first Scorpene until 2017, or later. The problem is mainly poor management by the Indian firms building the Scorpenes. One of the worst examples of this occurred in 2013 with the departure of ten Spanish technical advisors for the Scorpenes. Their contract expired at the end of March 2013 and, despite the expiration date being well known, Indian bureaucrats were unable to get a new contract in place on time. Similar avoidable delays have occurred several times already and the price has gone up with each delay.

Building the subs in India is very important because it will leave India with thousands of workers and specialists experienced in building modern submarines. But it appears that all this will be wasted because the defense procurement bureaucrats seem to have learned nothing. These officials already caused numerous delays and cost overruns during negotiations to build these diesel-electric submarines. The bureaucrats mismanaged this deal to the extent that it is now more than five years behind schedule. But it is even more behind schedule if you count the several years the Indian bureaucrats delayed it even getting started. The purchase contract was finally signed in 2005. The delays and mismanagement have so far increased the cost of the $4 billion project by 25 percent (to $834 million per sub).

In contrast Malaysia ordered two Scorpenes in 2002. These were built in Spain and France and delivered seven years later. The original plan was to have the first Indian built Scorpene delivered at the end of 2012. But now, because of problems getting the construction facilities and skilled workmen ready, the first Scorpene won't be delivered until 2017 (at the earliest), with one each year after that until all six are delivered. That schedule is subject to change and probably will, for the worse.

After the bureaucrats and politicians dithered for nearly a decade India finally signed a deal to buy the Scorpene in 2005, The delays led to the French increasing prices on some key components and India has problems in getting production going on their end. The first Scorpene was to be built in France, with the other five built in India. While some problems were expected (India has been doing license manufacturing of complex weapons for decades), the defense ministry procurement bureaucrats never ceased to amaze when it came to delaying work or just getting in the way.

The Scorpenes are similar to the Agosta 90B subs (also French) that Pakistan recently bought. The first of the Agostas was built in France, but the other two were built in Pakistan. The Scorpenes purchase was seen as a response to the Pakistani Agostas. The Scorpene are a more recent design, the result of cooperation between French and Spanish sub builders. The Agosta is a 1,500 ton (surface displacement) diesel-electric sub with a 36 man crew and four 533mm (21 inch) torpedo tubes (with 20 torpedoes and/or anti-ship missiles carried). The Scorpene is a little heavier (1,700 tons), has a smaller crew (32), and is a little faster. It has six 533mm torpedo tubes and carries 18 torpedoes and/or missiles. Both models can be equipped with an AIP (air independent propulsion) system. This enables the sub to stay under longer, thus making the sub harder to find. AIP allows the sub to travel under water for more than a week, at low speed (5-10 kilometers an hour). Two of the Indian Scorpenes are to have Indian made AIP installed.

All this ineffective urgency is in play because India's submarine fleet is dying of old age and new boats are not going to arrive in time. It's not like this was a surprise, but the Indian defense procurement bureaucracy has long been noted as slow, sloppy, and stubborn, especially in the face of demands that it speed up. The twisted tale of the tardy submarines is particularly painful.

The plan was to have a dozen new subs in service by the end of the decade. At present, there will be (with a bit of luck) three or four of them in service by then. The procurement bureaucracy is still seeking a supplier for the second batch of six diesel-electric subs. This second six probably won’t even begin arriving by the end of the decade. It's hard to say, although the defense procurement nabobs speak of "fast tracking" this project, but long-time observers are not expecting speed.

Because of the Scorpene delays, some of the elderly Type 209s are being kept in service (but not allowed out to sea much) for several more years. Meanwhile several of the older Kilos have reached retirement age. Thus, by the time the first Scorpene arrives in 2017, India will only have five or six working subs. India believes it needs at least 18 non-nuclear subs in service to deal with Pakistan and China.

The hulls of all six Scorpenes have been completed, but filling those subs up with all the necessary equipment is an even more difficult task. Moreover, India insists that some of that equipment be manufactured in India, and that introduces even more complications and delays. Indian firms have a spotty track record in this area.

India is also building and buying nuclear subs. India received a Russian Akula nuclear attack (SSN) sub last year. This one is on lease with the option to buy. Indian SSNs and SSBNs (missile carrying boats) are under development, as they have been for decades.

While India was largely concerned with the Pakistani navy when the Scorpene contract was negotiated and signed, China is now seen as the primary adversary. The Chinese subs are not as effective as the Pakistani boats, both because of less advanced technology and less well trained crews. Pakistan noted this and recently ordered eight late-model Chinese subs. India could use their Scorpenes to confront any Chinese attempt to expand their naval presence into the Indian Ocean. Thus the delays and cost overruns with the Scorpenes are causing quite a lot of commotion in India. But at the rate India is going, it will take some 15 years of construction before all six of the Scorpenes are in service. At that point, India would have about a dozen subs (including nuclear powered models under construction). China will have over 60 boats, about 20 percent of them nuclear. China does have a lot for its warships to deal with off its coasts and in the Western Pacific but it does retain the capability of putting more subs off the Indian coast than can the Indian Navy.

[Viv S]

The Gorky deal was a classic case of how not to negotiate a deal.Pl. study the facts carefully before jumping to conclusions. The IN was desperate for a new carrier to keep its aviation skills alive,there were no other options at that time in history other than the Varyag and Gorky.Ex RN Harrier carriers were too small and the SH development was a dead end,with the UK abandoning all further STOVL development.

If you were aware of the facts, you'd know that the Gorshkov was to be transferred to India for 'free' as a quid pro quo for a MiG-29K order for India. We could have operated the MiG-29K off any STOBAR carrier including a newly built one. The $800M Gorshkov, like the T-90 was a good deal when it was signed i.e. before the facts were revealed.

The carrier was built in the UKR,which after the collapse of the SU saw its own shipbuilding capability deteriorate. The Varyag was too large,unable for our ports/bases to support it,had large hull problems and would've been far more expensive to rehabilitate then the Gorky. The GOI also took some years to finally make up its mind,while the carrier gradually deteriorated further.When the carrier was being modernised,the UKR was reportedly also unable to provide plans,etc. resulting in underestimating the work required,esp. the cost of new cabling,ets. for the whole ship. From reports at the commissioning of the carrier,it has been officially said that the carrier is virtually a brand new one,with almost all of its eqpt. replaced. Both countries acknowledged mistakes made by them in estimation of the work,etc. We could've walked away if we felt that it was too much to complete the ship with our money returned.There is no blackmail in that. Look at the actions of the French and the Mistrals they built for Russia. They've refused to hand over the ships.That is blackmail! We were given the option of scuttling the deal,but the Russians were not.

We finally found an amicable solution acceptable to both sides. If you look at the cost and time taken for constructing our very own IAC by comparison, you will find that the Gorky deal /costs were not excessive and we now have a superb carrier that will last us at least 3 decades,giving us an advantage in the IOR for at least a decade before the PLAN get their new carriers and try and challenge us. We can only learn lessons from the Gorky deal which is now over and done with.

I see. So the Gorshkov's massive cost escalations were partly India's fault? And in your opinion, the Russians would have refunded our investment, paid for the cost-of-capital and more importantly compensated us for the time invested in the project (since any replacement AC construction would have to start from scratch)?

And all this is 'oh-so-amicable', but Sikorsky's asking-price for the S-60/S-70 (which we are under no pressure to accept) is what.. unacceptably imperious?

[Viv S]

One has to wonder, if there's a Francophone Russian typing away on the internet, telling the world that the Mistral situation has been 'amicably' resolved.

[Amit J]

Few Questions on IN

When is the Rajput Class of Destroyers scheduled for decommissioning. The lead vessel is 35 yrs old and the newest is 27 yrs ols (give or take some months).

What is the timeline of the decommissioning of the Rajput class and the corresponding timeline for commissioning of the Vishakhapatanam Class and the other two vessels of the Kolkatta class of destroyers

What should be the optimal number of Destroyers that the IN should have

and Finally

What would be a typical IN Carrier Battle Group consist of in terms of ships

[Will]

With reports of talks on the lease of a "New Design" nuclear sub from the Russians one can expect a lot of Russian help again on the 6 proposed SSN's for the IN. Don't be surprised if the lease costs a bomb . Some part of the cost for help on the SSN project will be hidden in this deal.

[Philip]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/business- ... 68341.aspx
Govt shortlists 5 shipyards for Rs 64,000-cr submarines project

Rahul Singh, Hindustantimes.com , New Delhi
| Updated: Jul 12, 2015

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 039465.cms
Indian Navy to soon invite tenders for six conventional submarines
By PTI | 12 Jul, 2015,

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indias-n ... est-780415
India's Nuclear Triad in Sights as INS Arihant Preps for First Missile Test
Sudhi Ranjan Sen | Updated: July 11, 2015

For the uninformed:
http://sputniknews.com/world/20150710/1024446687.html
Russia, France Prepare Agreement on Mistral Deal
© AFP 2015/ JEAN-SEBASTIEN EVRARD

World
10.07.2015
Russia-France Mistral Deal
Moscow and Paris are ready for an agreement on Mistral non-delivery, according to a military source.
Read more: http://sputniknews.com/world/20150710/1 ... z3fhOaPmll
Xcpt:

In November 2014, France canceled a $1.5-billion contract with Russia to deliver two Mistral helicopter carriers, citing Moscow's alleged participation in Ukraine's internal conflict.

Earlier this week, French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said the country's government was encouraged to end the Mistral deal during the October 2014 visit to Washington.

Le Drian confirmed that the failure to fulfill the contract with Russia is costing the French economy $1.3 billion.

[Will]

Not the tender route again pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeee! Hold discussions with 2-3 vendors and finalise the one that gives the best deal. Price is not the only consideration here.

[Philip]

http://in.rbth.com/economics/2015/06/23 ... html[quote]
India keen on new ‘Shtil-1’ SAMs for Navy
June 23, 2015 RIA Novosti

While waiting for the final Sea tests for the new Shtil-1, frigate-launched surface to air missiles, India has expressed interest in purchasing this upgraded SAM for its Navy. It is possible that China, which also owns earlier models of the Shtil, will be interested in buying the SAM for its frigates.

The Shtil-1 may also interest China, whose forces are armed with the old version of the SAM. Source: Ildus Gilyazutdinov/RIA Novosti

India has shown interest in buying the new Shtil-1 naval surface to air missile (SAM) systems, being installed on frigates 11356 project, Maxim Kuzyuk, Tekhnodinamika General Director, told RIA Novosti.

"Now everyone is waiting for the state testing of the first ship of the ‘Admiral series’ (project 11356) to be complete. That is when the new SAM will be accepted into service with the Russian Navy, after which it will be possible to deliver it overseas. Today India has shown interest in acquiring the new Shtil. We are discussing deliveries as part of the upgrade of old vessels and the construction of new ones,” Kuzyuk said.

India has already received six ships of a similar class to 11356, but they were equipped with an old model of the Shtil, which can launch once every 12 seconds, while the new Shtil-1 can launch once every 1.5-2 seconds.

The Shtil-1 may also interest China, whose forces are armed with the old version of the SAM.

"China has six project 956 destroyers which are armed with the Shtil. Russia also has such vessels. Repairing the old SAMs is meaningless. Therefore, in the future, the current upgrade may interest not only the Russian Navy, but also our Chinese partners,” said Kuzyuk.

Launch and ground equipment for the medium range Shtil-1 SAM is produced at the scientific-manufacturing enterprise “Start” (which is part of the Tekhnodinamika holding). The system is designed to engage all the modern means of air attack at medium range and at altitudes from five meters to 15 kilometers. A distinctive feature of the system is the use of the updated surface-to-air missile with a vertical start, and the use of multi-function radar with phased array antennas.

The Project 11356 frigates (being built at the Yantar ship docks in Kaliningrad on the Baltic Sea) are designed to carry out military operations in the ocean against enemy submarines, and to resist aerial attack, both independently and as part of a convoy of ships. At present there are six Project 11356 frigates being built for the Black Sea Fleet, which are to be launched by 2016.
[/quote]

[Philip]

X-posted from the Intl. nav td. Full report in the other td.

Thais p*ssing off the US.
http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /29904545/
Quote:

Thai Chinese Sub Buy Challenges US Pivot

Thailand's Chinese subs could operate in the Andaman Sea manned by PLAN 'advisers" in a crisis with India. It is a clver move by the PLAN to establish a logistic base in the IOR adjacent to the A&N islands ,from where they can also operate their subs,just as they plan to do at Gwadar. Have the IN/MOD's watchdogs taken note of this?

[srin]

^^ there is no TT launched version of the yakhont right? the yasen is carrying the kalibr in its ample vl cells i think.

---
defenceworld.net

The Indian Navy plans to buy additional four Boeing P-8I Maritime Surveillance andanti-submarine warfare Aircraft.

“The Cost Negotiating Committee (CNC) has recently completed the negotiations. The talks between the Navy and Boeing are at an advanced stage to add four more P-8I aircraft to an existing order of eight,” The Hindu daily quoted unnamed Defense Ministry official as saying Thursday.

“The CNC file would soon be sent to the Defense Ministry’s finance wing and then to the Finance Ministry for approval before the Cabinet Committee on Security headed by the Prime Minister,” the official said.

India had signed a $ 2.2 billion contract to purchase eight P-8Is in 2009 with an optional clause for four more. The negotiations to buy four more aircraft have been going on for a year. Seven of the eight aircraft ordered earlier have already been inducted for service. The eighth aircraft is scheduled for delivery by October.

Curious question on the way contracts are negotiated.

If we had options for 4 more P-8Is, then that essentially means same price as the original price, isn't it ? So what is the CNC negotiating really ?

[Cosmo_R]

"If we had options for 4 more P-8Is, then that essentially means same price as the original price, isn't it ? So what is the CNC negotiating really ?"

Checking with Boeing to see if the price still holds and then sending it to MoD to see if there is any money and then passing it on to the CCS.

[Cosmo_R]

....

Philip, that's an interesting idea. A 10-year lease would probably be a better fit for both sides, though. The deal wouldn't be a perfect fit, but I think it's justified under the current threat environment.

Might as well make an offerr for their mirage 2000s as well could reduce Rafale numbers and be easily inducted as they are already at 2000-5 std.

Don't forget the Qatari Mirages.

We just can't resist a good deal on a (slightly) used car driven by a grandmother who used it only for grocery shopping.

[NRao]

^^^^^

I think the discussions also included offsets.