LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 17 Oct 2017 09:21

Tejas + meteor?

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 17 Oct 2017 09:27

Karan M wrote: ...
Considering an average fighter radar costs anywhere between $2-3 Million, the IAF's 700 strong fleet is a market value of $1.4-$2.1 Billion, this without the strategic aspect or even lifecycle costs.

Do they really cost "only" $2-3 Million, especially French ones? I doubt the french (or for that matter the Israelis) will integrate Indian munitions with out obscene charges and instead push for MICA missile (each missile costing ~$2.5M) as ready made solution like the Israelis have been able to sell the derby missile.

At this point when we have our own air to air missiles, anti radiation missiles, and a plethora PGM it doesnt make sense to go for any imported radars in LCA or for that matter even MKI, Jaguar etc.

gunnvant · Post by **gunnvant** » 17 Oct 2017 09:47

shiv wrote:
Karan M wrote: Another key capability advertised (which means its intended, as versus developed already) is LPI capability.
Wat ij LPI

@ Doc LPI is Low Probability of Intercept, AESA beams are comparatively difficult to detect. More here http://www.radartutorial.eu/02.basics/L ... ar.en.html

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Oct 2017 10:02

Let the Thales ,if selected as there are still other competitors,be fitted to the MK-1A,but what the DRDO should continue to do is to develop the Uttam and when ready fit it onto an LCA MK-1A prototype and evaluate the same.If it then meets the specs., and even if a little more expensive than the firang chosen radar,fit it onto the LCAs in the pipeline and in the future. It has always happened in the past that when a desi system was on the verge of being perfected (engine for the Arjun),suddenly firang product earlier denied became available. You can't blame the foreign entities,they're merely doing business.Unfortunately,we lost decades due to the "Gandhian" philosophy of not wanting to export arms. Pak is way ahead of us with their modest products. The sad and shameful fact is that even for the infantry assault weapon,the desi one has failed twice! Time to open this most fundamental product system to pvt. industry,either a fully desi product or in a JV.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Oct 2017 11:05

Cain Marko wrote:Tejas + meteor?

That means bye bye Astra.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Oct 2017 11:59

I think USD 2-3 Million per fighter radar was ages ago, AESA radars will be much costlier than that

chola · Post by **chola** » 17 Oct 2017 13:18

Pratyush wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Tejas + meteor?

That means bye bye Astra.

Not necessarily. The LCA can fire the R-73 and Python. And in fact, if the Sq. No. 45 is forced into war today, the LCA can only fire the R-73 because of the Python’s wing flutter issues. But having one does not preclude the other.

Same case would hold for Meteor, Astra and Derby.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Oct 2017 14:12

Aditya_V wrote:I think USD 2-3 Million per fighter radar was ages ago, AESA radars will be much costlier than that

Based it on a volume production run for a US fighter radar. Since most of the radar imports will be leveraging other systems modules it would allow for a conservative estimate.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 17 Oct 2017 14:18

ramana wrote:I think we should go with the 2032 and let the Uttam come along as second string in the bow.
The AESA will further delay the LCA as it has to be integrated.

In Telugu there is saying "beware of one who shows heaven in his palm!"

+1. In fact I would say they can simply decide to go with Uttam no matter what and make it work. Its doable. As of today the question is freezing of MK1A standard by 2018 so that the metal cutting could start for production. Its a problem of configuration and program management. They can always prioritize and freeze the HW related features so the changes are frozen ASAP, while keeping SW related features on lower priority, which are relatively easier to retrofit. Release Uttam 1.0 with less than intended capability SW wise, but complete HW wise (3-4yr window available for freezing Radar SoP. Productionisation can run in parallel). A delay of an year or so in updating radar in v2.0 is acceptable. So is money spent on EL2032 for initial few LCA to be replaced by Uttam, in case they choose to go with 2032 for intial MK1As. It will be more than compensated for by elimination of duplication of efforts on integrating mission computer and weapons systems to two AESA raders and strategic freedom we get from having desi radar.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Oct 2017 17:42

Low Prabaility of Intercept. Can't detect the origin transmitters that easily. I guess Karan ji can explain tech details but I think it like burst mode transmission and only your receiver knows how to decrypt it. There should be some dynamic aspects to control the interleaved pulses where one could change it so no enemy system can decipher to jam. I think the raptor radar is miiltifuncional in that they fine tune few T/Rs for comms, some others for HF jamming and others tailored for various frequencies. AESA maskes it programmable and genuine multi-mode in a single mission.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 17 Oct 2017 21:21

IAF should stick to Uttam and DRDO should make it work!! Why the waste of money? Is it because Uttam is about to be successful? If the Frogs are selling anything cheap then they MUST be selling you out (like in the Scorpene). The Frogs wouldn't sell their dog named AESA for less than a billion.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 18 Oct 2017 10:19

Vivek K wrote:IAF should stick to Uttam and DRDO should make it work!! Why the waste of money? Is it because Uttam is about to be successful? If the Frogs are selling anything cheap then they MUST be selling you out (like in the Scorpene). The Frogs wouldn't sell their dog named AESA for less than a billion.

Can you guarantee that the Uttam will be ready in the next year and a half? You may know more about LRDE and its expertise in designing fighter AESA radars..

Have you read KaranM's post before unloading unleashing the light sabre?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Oct 2017 11:14

Successful Flight Tests For the Active Array Radar Offered by Thales to HAL’s Tejas

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 18 Oct 2017 11:58

ks_sachin wrote: Can you guarantee that the Uttam will be ready in the next year and a half? You may know more about LRDE and its expertise in designing fighter AESA radars..

Have you read KaranM's post before unloading unleashing the light sabre?

Can you guarantee that IAF will be able to stick to one radar (spec) and select AND procure it in 1.5 years. Have you seen IAF's/MOD/GOIs track record for the last 4 decades before mouthing off?

And please read the full post before attacking others - the time period will be iffy like you state if the IAF wants additional capabilities at the outset instead of adding them incrementally. Have you been exposed to signal processing? It is time that India got up to speed and developed its own. If India can put a satellite in Mars orbit precisely in the first attempt, it has some capabilities.

And then again - development of the Uttam can lead to incremental capabilities and a niche for the Indian MIC which would pay IAF rich in the long term.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 18 Oct 2017 12:12

Question for the Gurus - Is the inordinate delay to get the latest radar etc for the LCA worth the wait or should the existing radar be used? Do we have a network of sensors covering Indian airspace which would have nodes like the limited number of Phalcons (3 only) and the DRDO AEWs. With info from the aerostats, and other radars/sensors, can the point defence fighters like the LCA hold their own and use network info to fire BVR at the enemy?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 18 Oct 2017 23:50

As per recent ADA report, HAL assembly line for even 8 LCA per annum is still not ready. Hence HAL will not complete 40 LCA till 2023-25. Hence we have adequate time to plan more delay.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 Oct 2017 03:34

That recent report is from November of last year. By the way, was HAL supposed to have reached a production rate of 8 per year by now?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 20 Oct 2017 02:19

The radar set deal doesn't look a small deal. It is slated to be a 1.8 billion dollar deal. I am sure there will be some funny math around it to count it toward the 4 billion dollar offset. Can someone explain how these offsets work?

https://sputniknews.com/asia/2017101810 ... aele-jets/

Thales is also hoping to make a major push for its proposal to supply the $1.8 billion AESA radar systems for India’s Tejas light combat aircraft.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 20 Oct 2017 03:50

That's a ridiculous number being floated around. No way that 80 odd AESA radar units will cost $ 1.8 billion.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Oct 2017 03:53

^^ Exactly. Just some random number

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Oct 2017 04:31

80 radar sets should be $160M to $240M

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 20 Oct 2017 06:49

Indranil wrote:That recent report is from November of last year. By the way, was HAL supposed to have reached a production rate of 8 per year by now?

Indranil ji

You had reported that the SP-5 will fly by end of September. What is the status now?

It is so frustrating becuse, in the current situation, every day's delay in production is strengthening the hands of those lobbying for the SEF deal.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 20 Oct 2017 06:59

FOC kab aayega!?!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 20 Oct 2017 09:50

SP-5 is from the new line. It had a couple of problems in the ground runs. It has been fixed. It has reached the flight line. SP-7 has almost crossed equipment stage.

They have made 70 test flights on the last month. So, they are going great guns towards FOC.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 20 Oct 2017 14:42

Thanks Indranil ji

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 20 Oct 2017 15:24

Indranil wrote:SP-5 is from the new line. It had a couple of problems in the ground runs. It has been fixed. It has reached the flight line. SP-7 has almost crossed equipment stage.

They have made 70 test flights on the last month. So, they are going great guns towards FOC.

@Indranil - Do we have both the lines which can do Equipping in parallel ? OR all fighters needs to go to Main line 1 for some work.

From your earlier updates, i understand its taking 90 days in equipment stage which HAL wanted to optimize to ~45 days.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 20 Oct 2017 22:49

Indranil wrote:SP-5 is from the new line. It had a couple of problems in the ground runs. It has been fixed. It has reached the flight line. SP-7 has almost crossed equipment stage.

They have made 70 test flights on the last month. So, they are going great guns towards FOC.

Thank you for the updates Indranil!

Was the 'great guns towards FOC' pun intended?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Oct 2017 01:35

ashishvikas wrote:
Indranil wrote:SP-5 is from the new line. It had a couple of problems in the ground runs. It has been fixed. It has reached the flight line. SP-7 has almost crossed equipment stage.

They have made 70 test flights on the last month. So, they are going great guns towards FOC.
@Indranil - Do we have both the lines which can do Equipping in parallel ? OR all fighters needs to go to Main line 1 for some work.

From your earlier updates, i understand its taking 90 days in equipment stage which HAL wanted to optimize to ~45 days.

The first line is streamlined. It is currently running at around 5 aircraft per year. It should come up to 8 by middle of next year. The second line is not stable yet. It should stabilize by middle of next year and should come up to speed of 8 aircraft per year in 2019.

Kartik wrote: Was the 'great guns towards FOC' pun intended?

No pun intended Kartik. It would have been a great one though.

I shouldn't reveal the nature of the tests. I will just say that they were trying a world-class target and easily achieved it. So, they are going to go up one and make the target even tougher. They have to do some sims before that is tested. So in the meantime, they are going for some detachments for armament delivery. After that, you will hear a great news (something that was always seen in windtunnel models), but was believed to have been dropped in final product). I think that is a good enough hint for you. Keep it to yourself. When they come back, they will continue the test for the enhanced objective and then gun trials.

Everything is currently going very well with testing. The avionics is getting better everyday. I have just two things on my wishlist that I have not heard anything about. A dual rack for 500 lb LGB and another dual/triple rack for BVRs

IAF and HAL has not shown any interest in Mk2. HAL now has two excellent AESA radar options to chose from. I think 2052 still has the edge thanks to commonality. If Mk1A gets all the refinements like canopy reshaping, weight optimizations, other aerodynamic optimizations like airbrakes, active Levcons, slimmer pylons, pinched tanks etc., that in itself will be quite good. It will beat Gripen C/D in almost everything but transonic drag I think. And many of these upgrades will be back portable to the Mk1.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 21 Oct 2017 04:18

If the thales rbe2 derivative goes through, what short range aam will they use? I'm assuming it is designed for mica or asraam in which case will integration of these missiles on outer pylons if Tejas be an issue?

El 2052 would definitely have an edge in terms of integration, commonality and quite likely, price.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 21 Oct 2017 05:09

if CT are right, the only thing 2052 may not be going for it is that it will be denied to us (maybe under uncle pressure)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Oct 2017 06:34

I have been following military aviation for more years than the age of 50% of the Indian population, and I must remark that I have never seen any aircraft program dissected and fibres teased open in as much detail as the LCA program.

The point I want to make is that criticism by comparison is a valid tool only if you have equivalent details of any other program one is comparing with - and the Tejas has always taken a beating in this regard.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 Oct 2017 08:08

The Canard is making a comeback ?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Oct 2017 08:40

Gagan wrote:The Canard is making a comeback ?

Surely not as the are images from 1996. As mentioned in the caption to the image.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 Oct 2017 08:43

Indranil ji has raised a canard, with a cryptic post.
I wonder if the canard is a canard

That's all

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Oct 2017 09:10

Pratyush wrote: Surely not as the are images from 1996. As mentioned in the caption to the image.

1990. I used a lens in addition to my specs..just saying

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 21 Oct 2017 10:39

Re Indranil

The two production lines of HAL has capacity of 8+8 = 16 or rather 4+3=7? As per my understanding the project to enhance capacity from total 8 to total 16 has not take off, though Hal does like to talk about its "potential" Rs. 1200 crore investment for enhancing production from total 8 to total 16?

My guess for HAL production capacity

2017-18 is 4
2018-19 is 6
2019-20 is 7
2020-21 is 8
2021-22 is 8
2022-23 is 8
2023-24 by which time HAL would have produced 38 LCA, 3 more NLCA and 2 MK1A and would be ramping up MK1A in its true Babu style ie very slowly to 16.

My projection of MK1A is that major contracts to be awarded by 2018, delivery of long lead items by 2021, roll out of first MK1A by 2022. Substantial production 8? by 2025-2026. The production run will last upto 2032-35 of MK1A.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 21 Oct 2017 17:37

abhik wrote: Do they really cost "only" $2-3 Million, especially French ones? I doubt the french (or for that matter the Israelis) will integrate Indian munitions with out obscene charges and instead push for MICA missile (each missile costing ~$2.5M) as ready made solution like the Israelis have been able to sell the derby missile.

At this point when we have our own air to air missiles, anti radiation missiles, and a plethora PGM it doesnt make sense to go for any imported radars in LCA or for that matter even MKI, Jaguar etc.

Depends on what radar, what capability and what size. For example, an AN/APG-83 (SABR) will run you b/w $2.5 Million and $3.3 Million as installed (with installation kits), while the significantly larger aperture and more capable AN/APG-82 runs around $7 Million per instal (Around $5.5 million for radar with rest integration cost). These may be slightly deceiving since they are coming from vendors and partners that have huge investments in industrial capacity for their semiconductors to support thousands of radar deliveries so there will be some economies of scale that may not apply to some of the smaller vendors. When you go into the most sophisticated radars in terms of processing, fusion and electronic attack (you need a lot of surplus power and more importantly thermal removal to get EA modes) the cost/price becomes less clear as no such radars have been sold as stand-alone but are rolled into the cost of the aircraft. Needless to say, electronics (of which a radar and associated equipment is among the most expensive component) are a fairly significant cost of the overall aircraft these days.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Oct 2017 18:23

Gyan,your prod. figs indicate why the IAF/MOD are in such a hurry to seal the SE req.I have always been v.sceptical of the grand prod. figs that have been touted by HAL,etc.at this rate it will only be by around 2030 that we will get the 120+ MK-1s and MK-1As delivered with another 20-40 max.While LCA prod. is taking place, remember that by 2023 or so even the SE prod. will kick start in and if the MK-1A/MK-2 don't foot the bill,the SE bird will fly off the prod. lines compared with the LCA and knowing The IAF's lust for firang birds, claimed to be superior! The LCA will then be unceremoniously dumped in favour of India's "new stealth fighter the AMCA" (!) which the poor taxpayer,the ignored stakeholder, will be told is the "next best thing",futuristic,blah,blah.

I said a decade ago,let's see if we build as many or more LCAs than the HF-24.It looks ominously true as the firang sharks have started circling in number from both east and west.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Oct 2017 19:00

Just for the record SoKo has chosen the 2052 radar for its KA-FX fighter where BAe are supposed to have got their foot in.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 21 Oct 2017 19:05

Philip wrote:Just for the record SoKo has chosen the 2052 radar for its KA-FX fighter where BAe are supposed to have got their foot in.

Lockheed is supporting the program as an outside partner as was part of their offset agreement (they transfered documents and tunnel test data). ELTA has been chosen as the partner but not with the 2052. It will be a brand new radar which looks like something that will blend domestic components with those developed with ELTA's help.

http://airrecognition.com/index.php/arc ... oject.html