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KL Dubey wrote: ↑14 Jul 2024 22:46
It also seems like the kid's own political leaning (gadha) was opposite to that of his family (haathi), which may explain his getting registered as a haathi while a minor (I assume that requires parental cover, but I may be wrong).
No. This has to do with flaws in the US election system, and a good reminder of why such a system should not be adopted in India.
In this case, Pennsylvania state has primary elections to choose which candidates appear on the final ballot. With the twist that you can vote for a candidate from a party only if you are registered as a party member.
Now, if you belong to party A, and want to pick an un-winnable candidate (i.e. candidate who cannot win in the general election, but can win the primary) for party B, you will register as a party B member to vote for the un-winnable candidate.
More info for the shooter's motives will come out, but this is my speculation as to what caused the shooter to be registered as a Republican while donating to Democrats.
In Pennsylvania, only registered party members can participate in a political party's primary election.
^^That's great, but my question/comment was regarding how a minor can register as a political party member - does it require parental cover. From what I read, he was registered as a haathi in 2021 (i.e. either 16 or 17 y/o) but obviously could participate in voting only for the Nov 2022 state elections when he turned 18.
Might want to double check the source of this information. His voter registration record does not show when he registered, just the affiliation and address.
^^@"vera_k": Thanks. It appears he donated to a gadha political group in 2021 when still a minor, but it is not clear when he registered as a haathi.
Your speculation regarding party registration may be correct. I think Allegheny County as a whole is solidly "blue", but more affluent suburbs like Bethel Park seem rather mixed (see below). "Strategic registration" could be a useful tactic in state or local elections.
He had his team bring up an unscheduled and unscripted graph of the immigration reports showing 20-million illegals entering our country since Biden took office.
He even said “you don’t mind if I go off Teleprompter, do you?”
It’s being reported that shrapnel from the Teleprompter hit Trump.
Had he not gone off script and moved to the left pointing to the side screen then this could’ve ended much differently"
I don't understand why public speaking people are not protected with a bullet proof transparent screen. These assasination attempts are becoming more common place, and more precautions are needed.
vera_k wrote: ↑14 Jul 2024 22:58
In this case, Pennsylvania state has primary elections to choose which candidates appear on the final ballot. With the twist that you can vote for a candidate from a party only if you are registered as a party member.
Now, if you belong to party A, and want to pick an un-winnable candidate (i.e. candidate who cannot win in the general election, but can win the primary) for party B, you will register as a party B member to vote for the un-winnable candidate.
FWIW: To add - For clarity, primary election rules vary by state. About 20 states, like Ohio, have open primaries, allowing voters to choose any party's ballot at the polls without prior registration. You're asked which party's ballot you prefer (Republican, Democratic, or Issues-only) when you vote.
In contrast, states like Pennsylvania and New York have closed primaries, requiring voters to be registered with the party they wish to vote for. However, party affiliation can be changed relatively easily, typically 2-4 weeks before an election (15 days in Pennsylvania).
This young man's father owned an SAR, not just a self-defense hand gun. The kid went to school wearing hunting camo gear, and was bullied daily. Was that the parents' influence, or had he fallen in with some kind of extremist group ? The kid doesn't seem mentally impaired, instead he was a very good student.
Fits the profile of a typical white disillusioned shooter. Track all the political and mass shootings in the US and all of them will fit this profile. Nothing surprising here.
Who trained him to use that gun to sharp-shoot, and to conceal himself to "hunt" animals (or people)? Was it the unwitting father and his hunting buddies, or someone else?
This is a typical family thing. It's very common for rural Americans to teach their kids shoot at a very young age. Nothing out of the ordinary here.
It also seems like the kid's own political leaning (gadha) was opposite to that of his family (haathi), which may explain his getting registered as a haathi while a minor (I assume that requires parental cover, but I may be wrong).
It's hard to say what's what because there are so many possibilities here.
Was he somehow "identified/groomed" by an extremist group, or was it anger against his family and social environment ?
I'll be very surprised if it's an extremists group.
As for Trump, glad he is alive and well. He - and those killed or injured at the rally- have had the misfortune of personally experiencing practical aspects of the "guns don't harm, people do" philosophy espoused by the NRA.
Nobody - not even former Presidents protected by "the best" (although that is now a matter of debate) security - seems safe from bullets in this gun-infested country.[/quote]
Is this a verified photograph? One can calculate the bullet speed if one knows the exposure time (CCD capturing the image) and can see if it checks out.
No need Vayutuvan ji,
The hard work has already been done
What Is AR-15 Rifle Used By Trump Rally Shooter And Why Is It Dangerous
The US Secret Service is investigating how a person with an AR-15 rifle entered the scene and was able to fire multiple shots while Donald Trump was addressing the rally.
Donald Trump rally suspect has been identified as Thomas Matthew Crooks.
FBI has identified the person who fired shots at former US President Donald Trump during his rally in Pennsylvania on Saturday. The suspect has been identified as Thomas Matthew Crooks.
The US Secret Service is investigating how a person with an AR-15 rifle entered the scene and was able to fire multiple shots.
Now, let us understand what is AR-15 rifle
– AR-15 rifle falls under the category of “modern sporting rifle” aka MSR. Such rifles are mostly used in competitions and hunting purposes.
– As per the Firearm Industry Trade Association, the initials AR stands for ArmaLite, the company that made it in the 1950s.
- The Association added people often mistake AR-15 rifles for “assault weapons” or “assault rifles.”
– “These rifles' accuracy, reliability, ruggedness and versatility serve target shooters and hunters well. They are true all-weather firearms,” the association added.
– The semi-automatic version of this rifle was created for the military. Now, the AR-15 models are modular and owners are able to customise them as per their requirements, keeping the legal criteria in check.
Why is it dangerous?
— The speed of the bullet is deadly. As per The Washington Post, the quantity of propellant in the cartridge has the power to send the bullet at a “speed that would cross six football fields in a second.”
– The bullet can kill a person instantly after it hits a vital organ. “As that bullet slows down…that energy is so massive it has to go someplace, and your body will literally tear apart,” a trauma surgeon was quoted as saying.
The AR-15 is nominally chambered in .223 Remington or 5.56×45mm NATO, with the .223 Wylde chamber allowing for the safe chambering of both, but many variants have been produced in different calibers such as .22 LR, 7.62×39mm, 9×19mm Parabellum,[57] 6.5mm Grendel, and shotgun calibers.[58] Some of these firearms chambered in smaller calibers such as 9mm or .22 utilize simple blowback[59] or delayed blowback[60] operating principles instead of the default direct impingement/internal-piston based operating system, as insufficient gas pressure or volume is produced by the round to cycle the action, or the simpler blowback system is sufficient and may allow removal of the rear buffer tube and spring.
The AR-15 is closely related to the military M16 and M4 Carbine rifles, which all share the same core design. Invented by infantry rifle designer Eugene Stoner in 1956 for use in the 7.62 NATO caliber ArmaLite AR-10 battle rifle, the design features a gas-operated, rotating bolt combined with an integral piston (instead of a conventional direct impingement, operating system), and was patented under U.S. patent 2,951,424
Muzzle velocity 3,300 ft/s (1,006 m/s)
Effective firing range 500 yd (457 m)
BTW, Unlike many other rifles, even if the bullet from the AR-15 hits a major body part like an arm or leg, it will kill by shock alone
Very good analysis of the security procedures at Trump event
Note that Trump's security would have automatically been boosted after becoming the Republican nominee at the upcoming convention.
That would have made it much harder to kill him. So attacking Trump before the nomination would be better (for someone in the know about that)
So it naturally makes me wonder if this kid was put up to this by somebody else who knew all these things. Otherwise this kid had a huge amount of dumb luck to just accidentally make it through the security weak spots. Very suspiciously strange.
Last edited by sanman on 15 Jul 2024 02:55, edited 1 time in total.
It’s luck that this guy choose an AR, seemingly taking a head shot. Anything else (like the common bolt action .308 and a body shot) would have been catastrophic. In PA, 0.50 cal bmg are legal to purchase.
pravula wrote: ↑15 Jul 2024 02:28
It’s luck that this guy choose an AR, seemingly taking a head shot. Anything else (like the common bolt action .308 and a body shot) would have been catastrophic. In PA, 0.50 cal bmg are legal to purchase.
Watch the video to notice how many things had to work in the kid's favour for him to get that far.
It seems like a highly unlikely coincidence.
To me, it then gives all the more credence to the idea that this kid had some kind of help, to inform him or arrange for him to get so far.
pravula wrote: ↑15 Jul 2024 02:28It’s luck that this guy choose an AR, seemingly taking a head shot. Anything else (like the common bolt action .308 and a body shot) would have been catastrophic. In PA, 0.50 cal bmg are legal to purchase.
pravula ji,
The rifle amriki soldiers carried into battle is the M16A2 5.56mm rifle is a lightweight, air-cooled, gas-operated, magazine-fed, shoulder- or hip-fired weapon designed for either automatic fire (3-round bursts) or semiautomatic fire (single shot) through the use of a selector lever. The weapon has a fully adjustable rear sight
BTW, 5.56mm is .223 caliber. It is by far the deadliest weapon that the assassin could have used. This bullet can kill by shock alone, it has that much of KE.
Since 1975, the M16 has been used by many different countries. First designed by Eugene Stoner in the United States of America, it is currently the standard infantry rifle used by the United States Military Forces. The rifle is being used by over 80 nations.
The M16 uses the 5.56mm NATO (.223) caliber cartridge, with a muzzle velocity (the speed of bullet leaving the rifle) of over 900 meters per second (over 3,000 feet per second), and has a maximum effective range of 600 yards, with a rate of fire (how fast the gun shoots) of approximately 800 rounds per minute. The M16A1 can shoot semi automatic and fully automatic fire. The M16A2 can shoot semi automatic and three-round-burst fire. The M4A1 Carbine retains full automatic and semi automatic fire. The M16 normally holds 30 cartridges in its magazine, but there are variants of the magazine that hold only 20 or 10 cartridges.
Chetak Ji, I have zero real life experience with any kind of firearm, but have a few years in Call of Duty . I have rarely seen any COD snipers use a 5.56, while a 7.62/.308 is common. 0.50 BMG is prefered, but is heavy and has mucho recoil. If I recall, M16 is hardly considered a decent rifle, unless one builds it out specifically and hand loads the rounds for his setup.
To be clear, a .308 has an effective range of 900+ yards and a .50 BMG has a range of 2+ miles
Penning some random thoughts/questions here about the attempt of Trump:
This guy had some explosives with him, so it was preplanned.
AR 15 is a strange choice if it was preplanned. A .308 or a .300 Winchester are more common big game rounds, with cheaper ammo, longer effective range and has a good selection of small MOAs
This is a guess, but looked like a head shot, which is very hard with a proper sniper, and would have needed extreme luck with a AR-15
This guy had under 3 min to setup his position, which is a big security failure, esp as people were screaming and pointing him out. He should have been engaged much before. The SS snipers seem to have the range and did the job once the shots were fired.
Why did he not use a decent set of fatigues?
Modern rifles have 2+ mile range. Why was any elevated nest/site not covered in a decent distance?
The site was within RPG range. Imagine how bad this protection was?
Not an expert but sharing common knowledge where people go hunting in 'hunting season' in these rural areas..
The "AR-style 5.56" refers to a type of semi-automatic rifle that is popular among shooters and hunters in the United States.
In Pennsylvania , this type of rifle is legal for hunting and recreational shooting - as long as it is used in accordance with state laws and regulations ityadi and widely used for target shooting, and hunting (primarily for varmints and smaller game). While traditional bolt-action rifles may be still popular, AR-style rifles have become more popular - IMO - in recent years.
pravula wrote: ↑15 Jul 2024 04:57
Penning some random thoughts/questions here about the attempt of Trump:
This guy had some explosives with him, so it was preplanned.
AR 15 is a strange choice if it was preplanned. A .308 or a .300 Winchester are more common big game rounds, with cheaper ammo, longer effective range and has a good selection of small MOAs
Apparently, kid's dad bought him the AR-15, so kid may have just used what he had.
This is a guess, but looked like a head shot, which is very hard with a proper sniper, and would have needed extreme luck with a AR-15
He was shooting from 150 yards away.
This guy had under 3 min to setup his position, which is a big security failure, esp as people were screaming and pointing him out. He should have been engaged much before. The SS snipers seem to have the range and did the job once the shots were fired.
Why did he not use a decent set of fatigues?
How would fatigues have disguised him on a white rooftop?
Modern rifles have 2+ mile range. Why was any elevated nest/site not covered in a decent distance?
The site was within RPG range. Imagine how bad this protection was?
Amber Ji, here's the rub. AR-10 is .308 and AR-15 is .223. Both are "AR" rifles, with AR-10 prefered for big game (Bear, Elk etc) People hunting usually know these details and also know what caliber to use for what game. Its important because it may be illegal to use certain calibers for certain game and will land one in jail or heavy fines (yes, one can go to jail for using a wrong caliber to hunt, even with a permit)
My question may be more relevant in the small arms thread...Will post there.
An AR-15 is more expensive than a rifle. He could have easily swapped it out, since he had the time to make a couple of devices. This kinda means its not properly gamed and hence no other players? A lone puppy attack?
at 150 yards, a MOA of 5 will mean a CEP (Circular error probable) of 7.5". Again, this seems really fishy
People realized that this guy was a threat and started screaming because of what he was wearing. My guess is, there would not have been a lot of commotion if he had some black tactical clothing. Guess a guess...
Apparently, the SS snipers were not covering the close-in buildings, but further out. It seems reasonable, as 150 yards would have been really inside the security perimeter normally. Looks like a SS frack-up.
pravula wrote: ↑15 Jul 2024 04:20
Chetak Ji, I have zero real life experience with any kind of firearm, but have a few years in Call of Duty . I have rarely seen any COD snipers use a 5.56, while a 7.62/.308 is common. 0.50 BMG is prefered, but is heavy and has mucho recoil. If I recall, M16 is hardly considered a decent rifle, unless one builds it out specifically and hand loads the rounds for his setup.
To be clear, a .308 has an effective range of 900+ yards and a .50 BMG has a range of 2+ miles
One is surprised that a 20 year old guy was able to hit a moving target at approx 150 yards plus, give or take The only thing this idiot would have hand loaded was in his trousers. One suspects that trump would have been wearing an expensive, lightweight and effective custom made BPJ under his suit, and maybe that why the idiot went for the head shot. But then again, someone would have to tell the idiot shooter that little tidbit or nugget of information and that pretty much opens up the conspiracy angle
He had to take the rifle inside the kill zone and that requires some planning and maybe some dismantling, or he had stashed the AR 15 earlier, or he had help
Someone had to tutor him, he had to practice and develop some basic proficiency. and then again the FBI and the SS messed up big time. Too much of a coincidence, with everything lining up for that idiot on that day.
for the range he was working from, the AR-15 is the deadliest. Even if the bullet from the AR 15 hit someone in the body, it would have left a gaping exit wound, because at that speed and KE, the bullet creates a very strong vacuum behind it, and that vacuum would have ripped out several soft body organs from the body cavity in its wake by simple but explosively violent suction, as it passed through
For a target at that range, carrying/using a big bulky sniper rifle would have been not only very risky but also quite unnecessary
Whichever way you slice it, the weapon used was of the AR-15 family type.
As the AR-15 patent ran out years ago, many companies in the US started to make their versions of the same type by copying it, some made cosmetic changes, while other made addons that needed legal permission to buy
Joint Task Force 2 sniper (name withheld) -- May 2017 -- 3,450 m (3,772 yds) -- McMillan Tac-50 -- Canada -- Iraq Civil War is the longest recorded sniper kill in history (so far)
All such kills used very specialized weapons, super skilled battle experienced snipers, and this combination is very rarely found outside of the military. McMillan Tac-50, Barrett M82A1, XADOSnipex Alligator, Accuracy International L115A3, LRT-3 sniper rifle, Barrett M82A3, Denel NTW-14.5 are some of the western sniper rifles used the western and many other non western militaries too
To be clear, a .308 has an effective range of 900+ yards and a .50 BMG has a range of 2+ miles
There are perhaps only a small handful of people in the world with highly specialized sniper training who could score a kill from 2+ miles out, using a rifle, and they are a very rare species. The rifle is never as important as the sniper and his skill
By all accounts, the idiots target was not more that 150 - 175 yards away, ideal for the AR-15
Here is how to field strip the AR-15. Look at the lengths of the dismantled parts of the rifle. Small and also easy enough to carry unobtrusively in a knapsack that young people usually carry
Apparently, the SS snipers were not covering the close-in buildings, but further out. It seems reasonable, as 150 yards would have been really inside the security perimeter normally. Looks like a SS frack-up.
SS Snipers used 300 winchester.
pravula ji,
The snipers are not SS but from the local police, (their BPJs say so), perhaps with very limited experience in such work.
In theory, a SS/FBI sniper would have spotted the shooter much earlier, because many of those guys are ex military with combat experience under their belts
The security was very lax and handled rather casually. Sadly, it looks like no one was really interested in protecting trump
chetak wrote: ↑15 Jul 2024 06:29
Someone had to tutor him, he had to practice and develop some basic proficiency.
A minor can get firearms training starting around 14 with parental approval. No permission required after 18 of course. It costs less than what it the driving school charges where I am at.
Once you get the initial training, there's clubs or ranges to go practice at. Its not surprising that a 20 year old can be very familiar with an AR15.
chetak wrote: ↑15 Jul 2024 06:29
Someone had to tutor him, he had to practice and develop some basic proficiency.
A minor can get firearms training starting around 14 with parental approval. No permission required after 18 of course. It costs less than what it the driving school charges where I am at.
Once you get the initial training, there's clubs or ranges to go practice at. Its not surprising that a 20 year old can be very familiar with an AR15.
Thank you vera ji, didn't know that.
Are all/some of those school shootings somehow related to the fact that such facilities are so freely accessible .. do you think ..
But my point is that he was tutored, had the necessary practice and he did develop some basic proficiency with the weapon.
School shootings are mainly due to easy availability of firearms coupled with teenage hormone.
Taking firearms training and safety courses is one of the recommendations for learning how to handle firearms correctly for reducing shootings. However, it is not mandatory by any means.
Correct that he had to have basic proficiency with the weapon. But that's not unusual or a fact that would stick out, since it is a common recreational activity.
vera_k wrote: ↑15 Jul 2024 07:18
School shootings are mainly due to easy availability of firearms coupled with teenage hormone.
Taking firearms training and safety courses is one of the recommendations for learning how to handle firearms correctly for reducing shootings. However, it is not mandatory by any means.
Correct that he had to have basic proficiency with the weapon. But that's not unusual or a fact that would stick out, since it is a common recreational activity.
Correct. I cannot imagine a white rural american from PA not being proficient with hunting, either with a gun or bow/arrow. Otherwise he is gonning to have a hard time in school.
People in India seem to have lost this hunting gene. I remember the first time (30+ years ago) when a group of people from my village went hunting for a wild boar with a flintlock. It was weird and very hush-hush. Meanwhile,
Yes. Even at airport immigration counters. I see the same CBP/homeland security officers who have been working there for years, sometimes wearing the exact type of vests marked "Police" as in that photo above in this thread.
To answer the question from the other poster "chetak": Pervasive gun culture with very few controls is the root cause of rampant shooting violence.
. I have rarely seen any COD snipers use a 5.56, while a 7.62/.308 is common. 0.50 BMG is prefered, but is heavy and has mucho recoil. If I recall, M16 is hardly considered a decent rifle, unless one builds it out specifically and hand loads the rounds for his setup.
