Indian Interests

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 29 Feb 2008 07:42

Tarun Vijay is reading BRF

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 29 Feb 2008 13:26

Nice to know that Tarun Vijay has left Panchjanya to become the director of the newly created BJP think tank, the Dr Shyama Prasad Mookerjee Research Foundation.

He has been asked by the RSS top brass to form the think-tank on the ideological lines of nationalism â€“ "uncompromising and unapologetic" - as Vijay put it.

Nice to see RSS getting into the game of setting up foundations, much like the Goras. These foundations throw up new ideas and expand ideologies and are a very potent means of pushing the society in a given direction.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 29 Feb 2008 22:25

nkumar wrote: The blessed path

As much as 1.25 lakh sq km of our land is in enemy possession; this, as well as two flags for Kashmir fluttering over Srinagar Secretariat and ... give us sleepless nights and steel our resolve to undo the wrongs.

What is he talking about? What are the two flags? Can anyone comment, please?

nkumar wrote: Those who fear war get war and those who are ashamed at being what they are get nothing but shame from everyone.

Great words. Glad to hear it from someone in the Hindu dharma.

We are going to get war anyways, even if we try to avoid it. Irony is, preparing and being willing to go to war actually prevents war.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Feb 2008 23:01

I guess you dont know. There is the tiranga the Indian national flag and the J&K State flag. JK is the only state with a flag.

You can thank the great ones.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 29 Feb 2008 23:04

ramana wrote:I guess you dont know. There is the tiranga the Indian national flag and the J&K State flag. JK is the only state with a flag.

You can thank the great ones.

It is Nehru's doing. When Patel heard the antic of Nehru in giving special status to Kashmir by inserting a special provision in the constitution, he cried out in anguish: "Jawahar royega." ("Nehru will cry one day for this.")

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 29 Feb 2008 23:19

sanjaychoudhry wrote:
ramana wrote:I guess you dont know. There is the tiranga the Indian national flag and the J&K State flag. JK is the only state with a flag.

You can thank the great ones.
It is Nehru's doing. When Patel heard the antic of Nehru in giving special status to Kashmir by inserting a special provision in the constitution, he cried out in anguish: "Jawahar royega." ("Nehru will cry one day for this.")

Patel was wrong.

No Jawahar roya, no usska khandaan roya. Hindustan roya. Kashmir key Hindu roye.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 29 Feb 2008 23:43

To know the deviousness and foolishness of Nehru in inserting article 370 and how Patel confronted him about this, Arun Shourie has devoted a couple of chapters about this in his book "A Secular Agenda." The first chapter is "Voh Ghiste Ghiste Ghis Jaayegi."

These words ("It will gradually erode away with time") were uttered by Nehru in Parliament when questioned about his intention behind thrusting Article 370 on the nation that kept Kashmir seperate from the rest of the country. The other chapter that carries the "Jawaharlal royega" comment of Patel is called "Article 370: Behind the Curtain."

Basically, you will tremble with rage at the conduct of Nehru who comes out to be a man of straw frequently given to lying in parliament and giving wrong twists to events to wriggle out of a bad situation of his own making. In contrast, one is humbled by Patel's wisdom and insight and how he could clearly read the future based on present events.

This charlatan Nehru had the temerity to blame Patel in parliament after his death for the article 370 fiasco. It was a blatant lie. Gopalaswami Ayyangar was Nehru's key agent in implementing article 370, working on his direct orders.

I quote from Shourie's chapter:

By now Gopalaswami Ayyangar had succeeded to the Sardar's chair. And V. Shankar was a Joint Secretary in his Ministry. Shankar alludes to this speech of Panditji [the parliament speech where he blamed Patel for Article 370) and wirtes: "When I was working as his (Ayyangar's) Joint Secretary in 1952, the self-same Article [Article 370] came for criticism in the Lok Sabha. in defence Pandit Nehru took the stand that the Article was dealt with by Sardar in his [Nehru's] absense and therefore he was not responsible for it. I met Gopalaswami the same evening as he was walking on the lawns of his residence. I questioned the bonafides of Nehru's stand. Gopalaswami's reaction was one of anger and he said: "It is an ill-return to Sardar for the magnamity he had shown in accepting Nehru's point of view [about article 370] against his better judgement." He added: "I have told Nehru this already."

How history stings! That was in July 1952. A year had barely passed -- in August 1953 to be precise -- and Panditji had to have Sheikh Abdullah dismissed and arrested. "Jawaharlal royega, the Sardar had said!

So the lying turd was not above throwing mud on the deceased Sardar to hide his own deeds. And this is the man whose intellectual loftiness we are supposed to be impressed with.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 01 Mar 2008 00:16

Ramana garu said

Shiv and S Sridhar, there were two British centers of policy- Whitehall and the colonial office in Delhi.

There is references to this aspect in the book
The Great Game by Peter Hopkirk

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Mar 2008 00:24

Thanks Umrao jaan.

X-posted....
Instead of history of India which is a geographic term what we need is a history of the Indian people. By concentrating on the geographic area we end up wih the history of the numerous invasions etc. By looking at the history of the Indian people we can weave together the story of our civilization and its impact on the world.
------------------------

Meanwhile can any one unrar this and make it pdf so all can read

Saha Soneri Panne Chapter 1 by Savarkar

Chapter I of Saha Soneri Panne: rar format

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 01 Mar 2008 00:48

Maybe this is relevant...reposting.

Ramana, Myanmar had a lot of South Indians living and working there before World War I --- they were forced to return (though some stayed back) after the world war.

Ananth · Post by **Ananth** » 01 Mar 2008 00:52

ramana wrote: Chapter I of Saha Soneri Panne: rar format

PDF is here: http://files.filefront.com/6+Glororious ... einfo.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Mar 2008 00:56

Yes. Sugata Bose, the grandson of SC Bose wrote a book on the Indian Ocean community. The chapter on Burma has a big section on Tamil Indians and their investments. One of the the Governor-Generals acknowldeges that. Also a lot of Telugu people went to Burma.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 01 Mar 2008 01:20

ramana wrote:Yes. Sugata Bose, the grandson of SC Bose wrote a book on the Indian Ocean community. The chapter on Burma has a big section on Tamil Indians and their investments. One of the the Governor-Generals acknowldeges that. Also a lot of Telugu people went to Burma.

I come from a place called Vontimamidi (one mango tree) which is exactly six miles from sea shore and 12 miles from Annavaram (satyanarayana temple as seen in Sankarabharam movie) which is in Madras Howrah Grand trunk rail road and Road ways.

Many fishermen used and even today go into bay of bengal and stray/stay several days into Burma Rangoon locally called Rangam.

There are and were lot of telugu and tamil speaking people in that part of Burma.

Notice here telugu and Tamil people in Burma and American Baptist missionary zeal in conversion.

Lutheran Bethlehem Church
Myanmar Council of Churches

The Lutheran Bethlehem Church, in the heart of the capital of Rangoon, is the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Myanmar (formerly Burma). It is led by Rev. Rajan Andrews, who is assisted by a large and competent staff. Lutheran Bethlehem Church is a member of the Myanmar Council of Churches and has 1,500 members.

The Lutheran Bethlehem Church has a double heritage among Tamil and Telugu-speaking people from India. One predecessor was originally a member congregation of the Tamil Evangelical Lutheran Church. It was established to serve Christians from Tamil Nadu in India who had been brought from India by the British for special tasks in Burma, including accountants and administrative officers. Another predecessor was a congregation of Telugu-speaking Indians from lower economic levels who had been brought from Andhra Pradesh in India to work on the docks in Rangoon (now renamed Yangon). The Rangoon congregation was served by the Andhra Evangelical Lutheran Church in India.

In 1978, the Lutheran Bethlehem Church became independent from Indian church bodies and became the only Lutheran church in what was then Burma. It has continued to serve Tamil and Telugu speaking persons who origins are in India, as well as Burmese speakers from the local population. The church's engagement in social issues has long included concern for Indians who reside in Myanmar but who have not become citizens.

The ELCA provides assistance to the Lutheran Bethlehem congregation aimed at supporting youth work and developing lay leadership. The congregation continues to grow in its outreach program to the Indian communities beyond former Rangoon, now known as Yangon. Notable among recent ministries carried on by the congregation is outreach to persons forcibly resettled from Yangon to squalid camps outside the city.

The ELCA is able to work together with a number of partner communions in the USA to monitor human rights issues and support the church in Myanmar through the Myanmar Council of Churches (MCC). The MCC has several different departments through which Christians can work together and make a difference in a country where Christians are a tiny minority. The MCC works to educate churches on their common beliefs and strengthen visible unity. It holds seminars and consultations on evangelism. In the area of service and development, there is work on water projects such as digging wells, building pipelines, and building storage tanks.

The Myanmar Council of Churches Women's Department provides training in fruit processing, primary health care, management training, promotion of literature and art, and vocational skills for cottage industries. Youth programs work to promote the ecumenical spirit and break through barriers between denominations, between faiths, and between different cultures. Other areas of MCC service are education and communication, work with university students, and leadership promotion. Lutheran Bethlehem Church is an active member of the ecumenical community in Myanmar and participates in the activities of the MCC.

http://www.joshuaproject.net/peopctry.p ... op3=109930

Telugu of Burma ( from the dress and ornament on the nose, They belong to Fishermen class called "Gavara", these people have a uniquie trait including women, they smoke cigars but with difference the flame part is inside the mouth and they vaccum suck the fumes from the non lighted side of cigar, just an FYI)

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 01 Mar 2008 01:22

The ELCA is able to work together with a number of partner communions in the USA to monitor human rights issues and support the church in Myanmar through the Myanmar Council of Churches (MCC)

The americans/westerners have turned these Indian groups to their side and made them part of their " world human rights" scam that they perpetrate to further their geo-political goals.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 01 Mar 2008 03:25

Rye wrote:Maybe this is relevant...reposting.

Ramana, Myanmar had a lot of South Indians living and working there before World War I --- they were forced to return (though some stayed back) after the world war.

Movies like "Rangoon Radha" and even Sivaji Ganesan's debut "Parasakthi" touch upon the plight of returnees from Burma.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 01 Mar 2008 06:01

The British Raj continues to have focus on building and retaining the skill necessary to rule the world.

News black-out
* Jon Williams * 29 Feb 08, 08:27 AM

At its simplest, journalism is about telling people things they don't know. So when the Ministry of Defence approached the BBC - along with other parts of the UK media - to ask us not to tell our audiences about a possible deployment of Prince Harry to Afghanistan, it was something we thought long and hard about.

Prince HarryA news black-out is unusual, but not unique. An agreement exists between the police and the media over the reporting of kidnaps - the police have the right to request that media organisations don't report an abduction while negotiations are under way, in case it makes the release of the hostage more difficult; in return, they accept the responsibility to update the media regularly and reveal the full story, on camera, once the situation has been resolved. When lives are at risk, it's not always helpful to have things played out in the glare of publicity.
Prince Harry inAfghanistan

Last summer - on the day my colleague Alan Johnston was released in Gaza - the Chief of the General Staff, Sir Richard Dannatt, met editors to make the case for a voluntary agreement. He was very candid; Harry wanted a career in the Army and he needed to be able to be deployed to do what he'd been trained to do, even if it was just for a day.

After five months of discussions, using the kidnap agreement as our model, the MoD and the UK media reached an understanding; we wouldn't speculate or report on the prince's deployments to minimise the danger to him and to others. In return, we'd get access to him before, during and after his time in Afghanistan. It was a voluntary agreement - any of the organisations could have decided to leave at any time. We - and the other UK broadcasters and newspapers - were clear that we would not report his deployment.

So, for the past ten weeks, the BBC, ITV and Sky News have been filming with Prince Harry - the first time we've been up close and personal with him. We interviewed him at Clarence House in mid-December, just before he was sent to Afghanistan, we spent some time with him at the start of January when he was settling in at a remote base in Southern Helmand Province, and most recently, we filmed with him last week at a new location in Helmand Province.

In truth, the surprise is that the agreement lasted so long. We - and the other UK broadcasters - were clear that we would not report his deployment. But nor would we deceive our audiences.

On Christmas Day, when neither Prince William nor Prince Harry attended the regular service with other members of the Royal Family at Sandringham, we agreed with the Ministry of Defence that they would say that both princes were spending Christmas with their regiments - William volunteered for Christmas duty to help out his brother! It prompted some inquiries from one US TV network who had to be briefed on the story.

More recently, on Tuesday, the German newspaper Bild ran a diary story asking "where's Prince Harry?" and speculating that the gossip was that "he'd gone to war". We agreed that while the story was speculative and confined to diary pages, that we would not break the agreement we'd reached with the MoD.

Then yesterday, the Drudge Report - the online US website famous for breaking the story of Bill Clinton's relationship with Monica Lewinsky - put the story on its front page. The game was up. We, and the other broadcasters, agreed with the Ministry of Defence that the story was out and it would be wrong not to tell our audiences what had been going on.

We don't do this stuff lightly - there are no other "voluntary agreements" in place at the moment, there's nothing else we're not telling you. Until yesterday, only a handful of people in the BBC knew about the story - trust me, keeping secrets from other journalists is hard work! Our job normally is to make these things public, not keep them from you. But this was never just about Prince Harry's safety, it was also about the security of the soldiers serving with him. No editor wants to be responsible for increasing the risk they already face from the Taleban. Nor do I think our audiences would have thanked us for doing so.

Jon Williams is the BBC's world news editor

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 01 Mar 2008 06:20

Harry withdrawn from Afghanistan

Prince Harry
British media agreed not to report the prince's deployment
Prince Harry has been withdrawn from Afghanistan after news of his secret deployment leaked out.

The 23-year-old royal, who has spent the last 10 weeks serving in Helmand Province, is flying back to the UK amid concerns for his safety.

The move follows the collapse of a news blackout deal over his tour of duty, which was broken by foreign media.

There had been fears the prince, who is third in line to the throne, could become a target for the Taleban.

In a statement, the Ministry of Defence described the reporting of Harry's deployment by foreign media as "regrettable" but said that contingency plans for such a leak were in place.

Prince Harry, in an interview recorded in Afghanistan prior to his withdrawal, said he had enjoyed being away from the press and England.

"I don't want to sit around Windsor, because I generally don't like England that much and it's nice to be away from all the press and the papers.....," he said.

More recently he took part in a major operation to disrupt Taleban lines of communication
Brigadier Andrew Mackay

It added that while the prince should have returned "in a matter of weeks" with his Household Cavalry regiment battlegroup, the situation had now "clearly changed".

Brigadier Andrew Mackay, Commander of Task Force Helmand, said Harry had been "deployed in the field, conducting operations against the Taleban" at the time of the decision.

He continued: "He has seen service both in the south of Helmand and in the north. More recently he took part in a major operation to disrupt Taleban lines of communication."

'Risks'

Chief of the Defence Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, in consultation with head of the Army, General Sir Richard Dannatt, had taken the final decision to withdraw Harry immediately, the statement said.

"This decision has been taken primarily on the basis that the worldwide media coverage of Prince Harry in Afghanistan could impact on the security of those who are deployed there, as well as the risks to him as an individual soldier," it added.

Prime Minister Gordon Brown paid tribute to the prince and said Britain owed him a "debt of gratitude" for his service in Afghanistan, but he added that it was correct to bring Harry back to the UK.

"Security considerations come first. That has been the deciding factor which was made by our defence staff and I think that everybody will respect that is the right decision."

He thanked Harry, a second lieutenant, for the "professionalism and dedication he has shown", and said the decision to bring him home was a reminder of the "difficulties and challenges" the armed forces faced on active duty.

Conservative leader David Cameron agreed that it was "right" to withdraw the prince from Afghanistan, but said everyone in Britain should be "proud of what he has done".

"It's incredibly tough out there. He's obviously shown great courage and bravery as all our soldiers do out there.

"And what they do is really important, not just for the future of Afghanistan but for the safety of our country too."

'Dangerous tasks'

A member of the Household Cavalry, Prince Harry was based in a former madrassa along with a Gurkha regiment.

Work involved calling up allied air cover in support of ground forces and going out on foot patrols.

Defence Secretary Des Browne also commended Harry, saying the prince was "an example of a generation of young people" who were "prepared to take on these very serious and dangerous tasks for our security".

The Queen, opening the Queen's Court Care Home in Windsor, said she believed he had done "a good job in a very difficult climate".

The prince's deployment was subject to a news blackout deal struck between the MoD and newspapers and broadcasters in the UK and abroad.

It is understood that the news was first leaked in an Australian publication in January but only after it appeared on the influential US website, The Drudge Report, did the deal break down.

In exchange for not reporting the prince's deployment, some media organisations were granted access to the prince in Afghanistan for interviews and filming.

The prince's withdrawal is the second major blow to his army career.

Last year, a planned tour to Iraq had to be cancelled at the last minute because of a security risk.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 02 Mar 2008 22:26

Rye wrote:
Maybe this is relevant...reposting.

Ramana, Myanmar had a lot of South Indians living and working there before World War I --- they were forced to return (though some stayed back) after the world war.

Movies like "Rangoon Radha" and even Sivaji Ganesan's debut "Parasakthi" touch upon the plight of returnees from Burma.

I have heard loads of stories about people returning from Burma during those difficult times. In fact, my great grandmother and her family had to abandon almost all their possesions and return to Madras, by walk from Rangoon! Unfortunately, I was not too bright enough when I listened to her stories to ask her more pointed questions. One thing she did keep saying was that people with extended family were the lucky ones. And some others did end up like the Sivaji character in Parasakthi due to extreme poverty.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 04 Mar 2008 02:58

http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/60369/wai ... singh.html

Adrija · Post by **Adrija** » 04 Mar 2008 18:28

I have preserved this article from Indian Express .... quite old, but worth a read. Am posting in full for everyone to read.

Apologies if posted before

Najid Hussain
The race of fanaticism
I have great admiration and respect for Hinduism, because I regard the principles of Hinduism as some of the best the human race could have put into practice. The theory of dharma and karma and their importance in seeking nirvana are unique and represent understanding at a very high level of the human intellect.

But just as Islam has been hijacked by a few radicals who did not understand the humanity and more compassionate elements of their religion, Hinduism is being hijacked by a few Hindus who have been working hard at the grassroots for decades in what they believe are efforts at reviving Hinduism. They see Hinduism as a decaying ideology under threat. But a closer analysis of these awakened Hindus, their fascist ideology, extreme agenda and radical mindset reveals only a suppressed psyche which promotes a message of hate, painting an apocalyptic picture of Hinduism, everything that this great philosophy, or religion if you will, is not.

They [the radical Hindus] say that historically Hindus have been suppressed. No one can deny that. Hindus have been suppressed and ruled by several foreigners, including Dutch, French, Portuguese, Mughal and British invaders. Although a part of the legacy of those foreign rulers in terms of architecture and administration was good and desirable, one of its unfortunate effects was that in one way or the other, elements of that rule still continue in some of our hearts and minds. Unless we understand how it became possible for those invaders to defeat and rule us, we will never be able to strengthen ourselves enough to come out of that slavish mindset. Simply blaming others or acquiring a vengeful attitude towards other faiths and beliefs will not solve our problem.

The biggest mistake our ancestors made [the ancestors of today's Hindus and Muslims of the Indian subcontinent are the same -- Hindus] was the creation of the caste system. With that they created several apparently conflicting and mutually hateful groups amongst the followers of the same faith [Hinduism], injecting a mostly suppressive and hated mechanism. Even before the invaders came from outside, we were actively suppressing our own people, thus weakening ourselves. In fact, with that infighting, it was easier for the outsiders to conquer us, dominate us, collectively suppress us, even force us into foreign faiths and beliefs. It was our own indigenous policy of the past that weakened us and allowed us to be ruled by external forces.

The very fact that the 'awakened' Hindus of today continue to not only dodge that basic issue, but even condone it by trying to put a positive spin on its utility even in present times -- and do nothing about the urgent need to integrate all Hindus regardless of caste -- shows that their objective is not to reform the religion and help Hinduism out of the clutches of divisive forces. Rather, their motivation is something else. Their true agenda only appears to spread hate against certain communities; to punish the followers of those foreign faiths for the excesses of their ancestors; to cleanse society of those people. An agenda that has all the elements of fascist ideology, a failed ideology that continues to impress only those sick minds which have otherwise failed to make a difference in the world through progress or through the strength of their principles.

As a Muslim, I have no doubt in my mind that Muslim invaders, even if some of those integrated well with our Indian culture and contributed immensely to our history and pride, have committed despicable crimes and excesses against Indians in general and Hindus in particular. But today what we need to understand and appreciate is that present-day Muslims have nothing to do with that and that they cannot and should not be held responsible for the crimes of their ancestors.

It reminds me of the time when as a six-year-old I was on a train journey. As the train began to move, someone from the compartment ahead spat out and the spittle landed on my hand. Angrily, I spat right back, but it fell on someone behind me, who then came looking for me. The Hindu reformists must rise above that six-year-old intellect. While I do not discount the past excesses of Muslims on Hindus, those excesses had nothing to do with me and asking me to pay for them is ludicrous, just as ludicrous as asking today's upper-caste Hindus to pay for the atrocities of their ancestors on Harijans, or present-day whites for the slavery of blacks in the past.

I do, however, agree that in present times there are several factors that remind Hindus of past Muslim excesses, some of which include Ayodhya, Kashmir, Muslim Personal Law and the anti-national activities of some Muslims. An oft-repeated example is that many Muslims celebrate Pakistan's victory in cricket matches. Many of these complaints or concerns are overly exaggerated and politically motivated, but let us try and analyse these complaints a little more rationally.

Ayodhya:
This was the biggest blunder of the Muslim leadership. They had a chance to build a bridge of understanding and co-operation with Hindus by yielding on this issue. Besides, it was a small price to pay to compensate for some of the atrocities of their ancestors, even if the claim of the VHP and other radical organisations about the existence of a Ram temple at the site in the pre-Babur era was wrong. Plain and true, they missed the opportunity. The good news is that they still have time to act. Syed Shahabuddin, are you listening?

Kashmir:
This issue is a little more complex. I don't think Kashmir is a problem created by Kashmiri Muslims. Much of the crime is committed by those coming from across the border for which the locals get blamed. There is also some resentment among the Kashmiris because our Union has failed to integrate them in the mainstream. That is why it was easier for the ISI to foment trouble in the region. But it would be wrong for us to call it a religious issue. A similar resentment and effort at breaking up was witnessed in Punjab. But we did not bring in religion there, and rightly so. Keeping religious sentiments away, despite the strong temptation to do so, alone will help evolve a solution to the problem in Kashmir. Of course, my heart goes out to those Kashmiri Hindus who have been killed and driven out of their homeland. My heart also goes out to the Kashmiri Muslims who have been killed and displaced over the same period and are no less in number. We need to find a political solution to this problem. The sooner, the better.

The BJP came to power on the promise of scrapping Article 370 in Kashmir. I supported that. It is more than four years since the party came to power and they have done nothing about it. One wonders why. Do they lack the political will, or was it just a convenient issue to whip up religious sentiments and derive mileage?

Muslim Personal Law:
The Muslim leadership has failed its followers here as well. Muslims in general do not oppose a uniform civil code, but they have got the rap for the apathy of their leaders, who exaggerate the importance of the MPL. Muslims in every developed nation, the UK, USA, Germany, France, follow that country's civil code without insisting on a Muslim Personal Law. Then why the opposition to a uniform civil code in India? If they had a little foresight, they would have challenged the proponents of the UCC to do just that. There are other complications in bringing a unified code in India -- like properly integrating various existing Hindu laws and benefits provided to different castes and tribes under existing laws. But again, the Muslim leadership just provided radical Hindus an excuse to put the blame squarely on the MPL and get away with it.

Despite all the noise made by these Hindu activists, the fact is that India's demography has not changed over the last 50 years in spite of the ballooning population. I don't know of any Muslim who has, or wants to have, four wives and dozens of children. The percentage of population with large families [more than six members] also does not show any significant religious bias. So why has the Muslim leadership allowed the blame to be pinned on us for nothing? Ignorance! Wake up, Shahabuddins!

Support for Pakistan:
In justifying the Gujarat carnage, many of my intellectual Hindu friends reminded me that Muslims are anti-national -- they celebrate Pakistani victories during India-Pakistan cricket matches. I don't agree. If this is the yardstick for being anti-national, I have known many Indians living abroad, Hindu and Muslim, who at the very first opportunity renounce their Indian passports and nationality to become American, or British, or Canadian, even Ugandan or Kenyan. Are they anti-national?

It is said that America lost the Vietnam War first in the United States. People were against that war. And they had the freedom to express their views. They were not anti-national. There are many Americans who burn their own flag. Who dares call them anti-national? That is what freedom is all about.

But realistically, not all Muslims hoot for Pakistan. In fact, I have not known anyone who does. So why do we succumb to such stereotyping? Because politically it helps. Because power politics cannot survive without identifying and outlining differences. You need villains to project yourself as a hero. That is what this rhetoric is all about.

Every society has some bad elements -- Muslim, Hindu or Christian. But those bad elements don't define a society. Good elements do. Just because some of those bad elements do what we perceive as anti-national activities, we cannot ask them to leave India. They are also Indian nationals who have every right to live in India. All of their ancestors were Indian, even if at some stage they chose to accept Islam. No one has a right to ask them, or force them, to leave India. There are thousands of Indian Americans who regard themselves Americans. Imagine if tomorrow there is unrest in the US over unemployment and Americans ask them to leave because they are taking up their jobs. How would they feel? Especially those who were born and brought up there? Who have not known any other country as homeland except the US?

That is the state of most Indian Muslims who are often asked to leave India just because somebody paints the entire community anti-national based on a few such bad elements.

During the Gujarat riots, the VHP targeted and killed my father-in-law, the former MP Ahsan Jafri, just because he was a Muslim. Ahsan Jafri was neither a terrorist nor a fundamentalist, nor even an anti-national. He served his country and its citizens, regardless of their ethnic background, race, or religion, for 50 years with pride and distinction. His poems full of strong nationalism and his teachings constant with human values and communal tolerance are a testimony to his deep roots in Indian culture and respect for all faiths, which those who targeted and killed him did not understand or appreciate. Of course, the Jafri family did not blame the entire Hindu society for killing their loved one. Because they know that a few bad elements of a society do not represent the entire society.

Muslim pampering and pandering by political bodies, however, has been a reality in India. That has been one prime factor, which has been largely responsible for the state of Indian Muslims today. The vote-bank politics following Independence has kept Indian Muslims mostly unchanged in terms of education, development or progress. A strong Muslim leadership is mostly absent. I fully agree that without this pampering, Indian Muslims could have done much better if a level field without faith-based discrimination, or intimidation, had been ensured.

Sadly, although the BJP blamed the Congress for such vote-bank politics, it is doing exactly the same. Of course, it does not appease Muslims. Instead, it appeases the VHP, Bajrang Dal and RSS who show the same mindset as Muslim fundamentalists.

The Katopanishad says: 'Those who dwell on yesterday's mistakes are condemned to repeat them tomorrow.' Let the intellectuals not fall for the divisive agenda of activists disguised as patriots or Indian nationalists. Let us not become pseudo-intellectual and pseudo-secular just because we are repeatedly challenged by such rhetoric. Let us recognise that an Indian is an Indian regardless of his colour, race, or religion; that he/she has a right to freedom of expression and faith. Despite all expressed apocalyptic fears, Hinduism cannot be destroyed or weakened. And nor can Indian Muslims.

Najid Hussain teaches at the College of Marine Studies, University of Delaware, Newark, New Jersey.

Kalantak · Post by **Kalantak** » 04 Mar 2008 22:12

Adrija wrote:
I have great admiration and respect for Hinduism, because I regard the principles of Hinduism as some of the best the human race could have put into practice. The theory of dharma and karma and their importance in seeking nirvana are unique and represent understanding at a very high level of the human intellect.
First some praise for Hinduism to present himself as an liberal and then he reveals his real agenda.

But just as Islam has been hijacked by a few radicals who did not understand the humanity and more compassionate elements of their religion, Hinduism is being hijacked by a few Hindus who have been working hard at the grassroots for decades in what they believe are efforts at reviving Hinduism. They see Hinduism as a decaying ideology under threat. But a closer analysis of these awakened Hindus, their fascist ideology, extreme agenda and radical mindset reveals only a suppressed psyche which promotes a message of hate, painting an apocalyptic picture of Hinduism, everything that this great philosophy, or religion if you will, is not.
Suddenly he jumps from calling Hindus working to assert their identity as revivalists and then to fascists. He does not provide any proof for his assertion but concludes that all people asserting their hindu identity are fascists. Shows the mentality of the Najid Hussain of first showering some praise on Hinduism and then if the people start praticsing Hinduism immediately call them fascists.

The very fact that the 'awakened' Hindus of today continue to not only dodge that basic issue, but even condone it by trying to put a positive spin on its utility even in present times -- and do nothing about the urgent need to integrate all Hindus regardless of caste -- shows that their objective is not to reform the religion and help Hinduism out of the clutches of divisive forces.
Look how conviniently he ignores the fact the organisations like VHP have rejected caste system. Truth does not seem to be impediment in his mad rage to verbally attack the Hindus.

VHP rejects `varnashrama', seeks end to untouchability

"It has no sanction in the Vedas and dharma sasthras"

# Alien aggressions could have led to practice of untouchability
# Heads of mutts asked to give `manthra deeksha' to all

Erode: The fifth State Hindu Resurgence Conference organised by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and the Grama Koil Poojarigal Peravai has rejected `varnashrama' and sought an end to the practice of untouchability.

Addressing the conference at the CNC College grounds on Sunday, VHP international president Ashok Singhal said untouchability had no sanction in the Vedas and dharma sasthras. Ancient history and mythology had no record on it. Alien aggressions could have led to the practice. He called upon the heads of mutts to give `manthra deeksha' to all without discrimination.

An agenda that has all the elements of fascist ideology, a failed ideology that continues to impress only those sick minds which have otherwise failed to make a difference in the world through progress or through the strength of their principles.
Which religion is Najid Hussain blaming hinduism or his own religion?

But today what we need to understand and appreciate is that present-day Muslims have nothing to do with that and that they cannot and should not be held responsible for the crimes of their ancestors.

Jehadi muslims are the one responsible for the terror attacks on Indians and Hindus in particular be it the ethinc cleansing of Hindus by their muslim neighbours in J&K or the attacks on Akshardham temple, Mecca masjid or on the Indian Parliament.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 04 Mar 2008 22:22

The very fact that the 'awakened' Hindus of today continue to not only dodge that basic issue, but even condone it by trying to put a positive spin on its utility even in present times -- and do nothing about the urgent need to integrate all Hindus regardless of caste -- shows that their objective is not to reform the religion and help Hinduism out of the clutches of divisive forces.

There are several problems with this article. This process of internal introspection is being commented by a Muslim when members of his religion have to look at their own to do more.

Kalantak · Post by **Kalantak** » 04 Mar 2008 22:30

Prem wrote:http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/60369/wai ... singh.html

A person who renounces Sikhism and accepts Islam is not even worth the support that he receiving.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 04 Mar 2008 22:38

kalantak wrote:

A person who renounces Sikhism and accepts Islam is not even worth the support that he receiving.

That just demonstrates the brutality of islam in Pakistan. Folks should not go around pretending that they can hold a candle to an Indian soldier who has had to live as a prisoner in Hell on Earth for decades, when the most any of us do for the country is post messages on the internet -- Shri Kashmir Singh did not go to Pakistan on a vacation, you know.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Mar 2008 23:13

Nato asks for India help in Afghanistan

[quote]
Brussels, March 3: The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation needs a full range of international actors, including India, in order to accomplish its military and reconstruction missions in Afghanistan, according to a Nato official. The official said that Nato and a â€œlike-mindedâ€

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 05 Mar 2008 08:01

Kalantak wrote:
Prem wrote:http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/60369/wai ... singh.html
A person who renounces Sikhism and accepts Islam is not even worth the support that he receiving.

I'm sorry, but this is such a ridiculous statement. This man, a soldier, spent 35 years in a Pakistani cell - we might as well call up the British to open the Andaman Cellular jails again.

Cut this man some slack. If he was dharmic and converted under pressure, I don't think his mentality has changed much.

Kalantak · Post by **Kalantak** » 05 Mar 2008 17:32

Rye wrote:kalantak wrote:
A person who renounces Sikhism and accepts Islam is not even worth the support that he receiving.
That just demonstrates the brutality of islam in Pakistan. Folks should not go around pretending that they can hold a candle to an Indian soldier who has had to live as a prisoner in Hell on Earth for decades, when the most any of us do for the country is post messages on the internet -- Shri Kashmir Singh did not go to Pakistan on a vacation, you know.

First of all he is not an Indian soldier rather he belonged to punjab police and why & how is entered is not fully known. BTW he was tried by a paki military court for allegedly 'spying' and given an death sentence.

This death sentence was waived off by Musharraf and he was freed at a time to create a good impression of musharraf in the minds of the whole world and not due to any sudden kindness towards kashmir singh.

May i suggest to you read about sikh faith. You will find that sikh children when held captive by muslim soldiers and forced to accept islam or face death choose death rather than abadoning their faith. Kashmir singh sadly abandoned sikhism and accepted the criminal ideology called islam.

Kalantak · Post by **Kalantak** » 05 Mar 2008 17:34

Maratha wrote:I'm sorry, but this is such a ridiculous statement. This man, a soldier, spent 35 years in a Pakistani cell - we might as well call up the British to open the Andaman Cellular jails again.

Cut this man some slack. If he was dharmic and converted under pressure, I don't think his mentality has changed much.

Could not get the point that you wanted to make.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 05 Mar 2008 18:47

kalantak, It is extremely uncool to criticize Kashmir Singh given what he had to face in Pakistan for 35 years. please stop this nonsense.

Kalantak · Post by **Kalantak** » 05 Mar 2008 19:16

Rye wrote:kalantak, It is extremely uncool to criticize Kashmir Singh given what he had to face in Pakistan for 35 years. please stop this nonsense.

If you dont want to take the discussion further then i end this here, but remember there were many occasions when sikh gurus were also forced to accept islam under duress but they refused, If they had not done so there would be no sikh panth today.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 05 Mar 2008 19:19

my family from the fathers side was from Burma. They lost all their possessions (big teak house, teak trees and all that) and had to make their way down the jungles to India. They were accompanied by a Sikh family who found a orphaned burmese baby girl and took her along. The Sikh family moved to Bombay, my fathers side moved back to Palghat where they originally were from.

What still rankles is the 25 elephants they had to leave behind

We hate elephant poachers!!!

Sorry got sidetracked

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 05 Mar 2008 19:50

talking of Sikh families in Burma moving to Bombay, there is famous Indian adman by name of Prahlad Kakkar, whose father is Sikh and mother is Burmese. Any connections ?

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 06 Mar 2008 01:28

Kalantak wrote:
Maratha wrote:I'm sorry, but this is such a ridiculous statement. This man, a soldier, spent 35 years in a Pakistani cell - we might as well call up the British to open the Andaman Cellular jails again.

Cut this man some slack. If he was dharmic and converted under pressure, I don't think his mentality has changed much.
Could not get the point that you wanted to make.

I was saying that he definitely should receive whatever support is coming to him. You may disagree, especially when looking at the atrocities that earlier Sikhs endured (such as Guru Gobind Singhs sons), but not everyone is the same.

I just didn't like your criticism of him simply because he changed his faith.

This conversation was already over, but I had to add one last point.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 06 Mar 2008 02:03

Even 5 hours in the company of Barbarians can be an intensely unpleasent experience. Kashmir Singh deserves all the support he gets, his conversion to Islam not withstanding. The fact that the Pakis have released him after 35 years points to the fact that they are sure that he will not be able to recollect anything that can be incriminating. The very look on his face speaks of unimaginable horrors being inflicted upon him. Please dont trivialise what he has gone through by talking about his conversion.

sorry for the OT rant

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Mar 2008 11:56

The more western science discovers the closer the western civilization gets to Hinduism. No wonder the Xian yahoos in US hate Darwin.

We are no different

We are no different

Yet another study goes a long way in exploding the myth of human uniqueness

Carl Zimer's article in The New York Times of March 4, 2008, contains an interesting account of Prof Kay E Holekamp's findings about the complex social lives of spotted Hyenas inhabiting the Savannas of southern Kenya. Prof Holekamp's study, spread over two decades, has an important bearing on the question of the treatment of animals.

While Hinduism includes the latter in its moral universe, as the Universal Consciousness, Brahman, is present in all beings as the individual consciousness or self, the Atman, the Judeo-Christian as well as the Renaissance-Humanist worldview excludes them on the ground that they lack rationality, which put them in a category entirely different from that of human beings who are endowed with reason, and which enables them to do whatever they want with animals.

Primatologists have challenged this view systematically. Jane Goodall, Frans de Waal and WC McGrew aver that chimpanzees have complex social lives marked by a distinct hierarchical order. They communicate with one another and with human beings in sign language. They make and use tools, recognise words, practice deception and form alliances to keep more powerful members of their respective troops under check. According to Charles Sibley and Jon Alquist, human and chimpanzee DNA was 98.4 per cent identical. It was 97.7 per cent in the case of human beings and gorillas and 97.4 per cent in the case of human beings and orangutans. According to Jared Diamond, chimpanzees and human beings were genetically so close that the latter could be called the "third" chimpanzee after chimpanzees and bonobos.

In an article in The New York Times of October 9, 2007, Nicholas Wade cites Dorothy Cheney and Robert Seyfarth, who have spent 14 years in studying baboons in Botswana's Moremi Game Sanctuary in West Africa, as saying that baboons minds were specialised for social interaction, for understanding the structure of their complex society and for navigating their way within it. Also, Wade quotes Seyfarth as saying that while human language is regarded as unique, "when it comes to perceiving and deconstructing sounds, as opposed to making them, baboons' ability seems much more language-like".

It is not just primates. Prof Irene Pepperberg's experiments with Alex, the grey African parrot, have led her to conclude that parrots reason, comprehend and calculate at the level of a four-year-old child. Researchers Bernd Heinrich and Thomas Bugnyar of Vermont University in Canada and St Andrews University in Scotland have found that ravens use logic to solve their problems and some of their abilities surpass those of the great apes. Karl Von Frisch won a Nobel Prize in 1973 primarily for his discovery that honeybees, whose brains are on an average one millimetre in volume, possessed by far the most sophisticated system of communication in the animal world, after human language.

Prof Holekamp's study constitutes yet another significant contribution to the growing corpus of literature exploding the myth of human uniqueness among all living beings. According to her, spotted Hyenas live in societies just as large and complex as those of baboons. Comprising between 60 and 80 individuals, who know one another individually, they have an alpha female at the top and scores of hyenas below. Each cub learns exactly where it fits in the hierarchy, and where all the others fit.

According to Zimer, Prof Holecamp, who teaches at Michigan State University in the US, has seen alliances form and collapse among hyenas, and clan wars in which dozens of them had combined to defend their hunting territory. He quotes her as stating that the lives of spotted hyenas "share some profound similarities with our own. In both species, a complex social world has driven the evolution of a big, complex brain".

Human intelligence has evolved from and through animal intelligence and is not qualitatively different from it. Nor are humans the only living beings with a sense of morality. In an article in The New York Times of March 8, 2007, Nicholas Wade cites instances of animal behaviour that, according to Frans de Waal, "are the precursors of human morality". Wade writes, "Chimpanzees, who cannot swim, have drowned in zoo moats trying to save others. Given the chance to get food by pulling a chain that would also deliver an electric shock to a companion, rhesus monkeys will starve themselves for days".

Of course birds, animals and water mammals are less intelligent than human beings. But does one exclude mentally challenged and less intelligent people from the moral universe that human beings have constructed, and deny them even the right to live and be free from pain and torture?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Mar 2008 00:19

Interesting interview on Indians and Indian History.

From Hindu

[quote]
Living in a multiverse

ZIYA US SALAM

Indians may be good at living in many worlds at the same time, but we should be a little more aware of our own rich and layered history, feels seasoned writer and novelist William Dalrymple. Excerpts from a recent interview...

PHOTO: P.V. SIVAKUMAR

WILLIAM DALRYMPLE: New narrative modes for history.

Indians are good at living in multiple worlds. Equally at ease with Nike and jootis, urban Indians speak English in their offices, and often their mother tongue at home. Just like getting into trousers for the workplace and slippin g into a dhoti/pyjama or mundu at home. We fight over the depiction of a medieval princess in a celluloid work of fiction and stay silent on the neglect of the regional languages. Little wonder, William Dalrymple finds it all simply â€œincredibleâ€

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 07 Mar 2008 03:31

Left swallows Russia bitter pill

[quote]New Delhi, March 6: Dmitry Medvedevâ€™s landslide win in the Russian presidential election has pitched the Indian Left on the horns of a dialectical dilemma â€” itâ€™s downcast at the thrashing the communists have got but it isnâ€™t prepared to damn the election as a â€œKremlin-controlled and riggedâ€

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 08 Mar 2008 00:09

http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil/

Sanskrit, Tamil and Pahlavi Dictionaries

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Mar 2008 05:02

KPS Gill in Pioneer, 8 Mar., 2008

India needs a national line

KPS Gill

The political discourse in India has grown so muddy, so partisan and so utterly adversarial, that there is not a single issue -- however critical it may be to the national interest -- on which a minimal consensus can be reached. Even on matters of defence and national security, parties refuse to sit together and accept a national 'line' that will be held, irrespective of the party in power. Indeed, in the realm of internal security, it appears that a consensus on assessments cannot even be maintained between India's Prime Minister and his Home Minister.

Within such a fractious polity an issue as complex as the nuclear agreement, with as polarising a power as the US, naturally excites extremes of opinion -- and these have been in evidence for over two-and-a-half-years now, without the general public being any clearer on the implications of the deal than they were at the start of the endless cycle of accusations, denials and counter-accusations that have defined the 'debate' on the issue. At its core, this debate has been more about personalities and political postures than about the actual merits of the India-US agreement, with some of the most incongruous arguments being put forward.

The most remarkable and disruptive, in this connection, have been the Left parties, whose principal objection is not that the deal does not give India the advantages that are claimed for it, or that it undermines India's interests, but rather that it constitutes a US conspiracy to 'contain' China. Interestingly, China itself has indicated that it is not opposed to the agreement -- clearly a case of the Indian Left being 'more loyal than the Chairman'. Significantly, the US itself is engaged in a complex web of relationship with China -- to the mutual benefit of both countries -- and the 'containment' perspective is only one of the (minor) streams in American strategic thinking. It is, moreover, a stream that finds few buyers in India, even as the country seeks better rapport with its neighbour, despite multiple irritants.

The Left parties have also argued that the agreement 'binds India to the US' on foreign policy issues, and diminishes India's options, particularly in the strategically crucial Central Asian region, where US policy seeks to contest Chinese and Russian influence. This simplistic reduction of the dynamics of contemporary global powershifts is truly astonishing. For one thing, the brief pre-eminence of the world's 'sole superpower' has undergone sustained and multiple challenges over the past years, and it is more than evident that we are rapidly moving into an era of multipolarity. By all accounts, India is one of the emerging poles in this future order.

To suggest that this rising India will be tied to the apron strings of declining American power is to reflect a sense of inferiority and lack of confidence that is astonishing. Even at its weakest, India has never accepted the subordination of its national interests to global bloc politics. To think that we will abruptly accede to the status of an American stooge, at a stage where our own power and prestige are augmenting dramatically, is to display no strategic understanding whatsoever.

The BJP's position is equally unfathomable, and appears to be more of a dog-in-the-manger response than a considered reaction to particular elements of the agreement. For one, negotiations for the deal commenced between the Clinton Administration and the Atal Bihari Vajpayee Government and, on a number of accounts, including, most recently, a statement by former US Deputy Secretary of State Strobe Talbott, the BJP would have settled for less than the Manmohan Singh Government has secured. Crucially, Mr Brajesh Mishra, Prime Minister Vajpayee's National Security Adviser, has now come out openly exhorting the BJP and other opponents of the agreement to accept it as the best option available.

This goes to the very core of the issues at hand. Experts have raised valid concerns regarding some elements of the agreement, but have also posed the crucial question: Is there a better option at hand? We have suffered enormously under the sanctions imposed after 1998, and even existing programmes are now being curtailed by acute fuel shortages. Worse, technology denial not only affects our capabilities in the field of nuclear science, it has restricted access to a wide range of dual use technologies with crucial impact on scientific and technological advances across the board.

The India-US agreement not only provides full access to the entire range of hitherto denied technologies but also, as critics from the non-proliferation lobby have irately pointed out, a guarantee of strategic fuel reserves for the entire life of the safeguarded reactors, even if India were to 'violate' its self-imposed moratorium on future testing of military nuclear devices. Significantly, as exasperated non-proliferation advocates never tire of arguing, foreign supplies of nuclear fuel under the agreement would free India's present fuel stockpiles for military use.

The Left has now put the Government on notice again, threatening to pull out support over the nuclear deal, while the BJP continues with its contrary posturing. The Government has displayed little will to convince opponents of the deal, or to initiate measures to push it through, fearing an election that would certainly not be to the significant disadvantage of the Congress. A raging controversy, carried forward by ill-informed debates in Parliament and ill-conceived disputations in the popular media, has persisted over nearly three years now with the world witness to a system of governance that displays little evidence of consistency, strategic foresight or capacity for rational decision-making.

India is seeking 'global power' status, but its politics remains mired in the most extraordinary pettiness. This is an unsustainable combination. Minor coalition partners have repeatedly held the Government to ransom on crucial issue -- and not the nuclear deal alone. Parties in Opposition have taken obstruction of all Government initiatives as their principal role. Nowhere has the national interest been allowed to prevail over polarised party politics.

If this orientation persists, and if the national political establishment does not acquire the capacities to comprehend and explain complex global issues to its (often ignorant and obdurate) constituent members, and to act in accordance with India's strategic interests and objectives, for all our nine per cent rate of growth, we will remain a shoddy, shambling power, unable even to exert a positive influence within our immediate (and increasingly chaotic) neighbourhood.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 09 Mar 2008 00:29

Posting this on this thread because Indian politicians have far too long treated sites of national heritage like their grandfather's property that can be trashed for their personal/party's benefit. The Shipping Minister's behaviour has been highly dubious, if we go by the Article by Shishir Gupta (link below).

Shipping Minister T.R. Baalu honesty/incorruptibility does not smell too good given his actions since he became Shipping Minister and his strangely unrelenting push to implement the Ramar Setu, where he wants to ignore due process and complete construction of the Ramar Setu before the UPA loses power. How about the business interests of other leading lights in the DMK in the Shipping/Transportation industry?

He has appointed some crony in the the shipping corporation of India and the shipping Secretary -- are any of the people in the GoI paying attention to his business interests, or are they all in this together?

If India ended up destroying the palk strait and ramar paalam to help the business interests of a crooked shipping minister, it would be sad indeed.

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/281623.html

The surface transport and shipping minister, T.R. Baalu of the DMK, changed the chairman of the National Highways Authority of India thrice last year. He tried to run roughshod over the appointment of the shipping secretary this year. The same minister took his time implementing a cabinet directive on the appointment of the chairman of the Shipping Corporation of India in 2004.

One factor cited for the current crisis is the increasing clout of regional political parties. This often creates pressure on officers to follow regionally determined agendas, instead of seeing things from a national perspective.