Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest
Posted: 31 Jul 2009 23:45
X-posting from Future strategic scenarios thread:
nachiket wrote:Sir,brihaspati wrote:India should reclaim Pakistan not only because Pakistan has failed in all its justifications for its existence. But because the entire idea of Pakistan was an imagination based on an alien and imported ideology that was imposed on the land at the point of military coercion, and that still holds its primary ideological identification and affiliation to a source and cultural centre outside of the subcontinent. Because the idea of Pakistan was a bluff pulled by dominant theologians and affiliated Islamic political leadership and implemented with the active encouragement and support of colonial regimes and powers external to the subcontinent.
Because the idea of Pakistan was accepted by the then prevailing regime and political leadership among the non-Muslims, and no leader or leadership at any point of time in a nation's history is greater than the nation itself. Therefore what the non-Muslim leadership accepted is not binding on the nation, and it can and should overturn any decisions taken in the past that is perceived to have been disastrous, unilaterally painful and costly on the common members of the nation (and not on the leadership who suffered little or nothing even in personal terms of the fallout of the creation of the artificial entity of Pakistan).
The Indian subcontinent must come under one single political authority and economic system that also gives primacy to the long standing indigenous Bharatyia culture of the majority of the populations as modified to suit current advances in knowledge and humanitarian concepts. For those countries in the "west" which have brought down on the peoples of the subcontinent untold hardship, trauma and pain, in their racist, colonial and theological paranoia by supporting and maintaining the terrorist rashtra of Pakistan - it is time for their leadership and their people to understand that an unified subcontinent, not under Islam, is in their long term interest. Such an unified entity will stop Jihadi terror exports to the west, help in erasing Jihad globally over the long term, provide a much larger, integrated market to "exploit", and stable strategic infrastructure to utilize to get access to IO and the central Asian energy sources.
Any Indian leader or leadership that fails to carry out this agenda will go down in history not only as blind, clueless, and poor caricatures as statespersons but also as traitors who helped prolong the alien and artificially constructed entity of Pakistan, thereby extending the suffering of subcontinental populations on both sides of the existing borders - Muslim and non-Muslim alike.
I understand where you are coming from and your argument why India should reclaim Pakistan is sound from a historical perspective. But should'nt we be thinking practically?
Reclaiming Pakistan does not merely imply reclaiming territory wrongfully taken from us. It also involves accepting 200 million people with an high percentage of Islamist radicals known for exporting terrorism throughout the world. The population in general after decades of brainwashing and indoctrination hates India and everything Indian.
As an Indian citizen, I do not want my country overrun by such scum.
Further, how do you suggest an Indian leader actually go about trying to reclaim Pakistan?
ramana wrote:nachiket, What brihaspatiji is saying is a goal. What you are saying are the practical impediments to achieving the goal. What is needed is to take a wholistic view and work around the impediments. The key change that has come over TSP is from the Islamization drive launched in 1970s. And the support from West and PRC. As all social engineering projects it can be reversed.
If all we say is neti, neti, how can we bring about vasudeva kutumbam? Through out the ages there were visionaries who tried to square the circle and at crucial times there were interventions which subverted the process.
nachiket wrote:I understand sir, but whatever goal, we might set for our country has to be feasible within a particular timeframe and more importantly the benefits obtained from realizing that goal must be quantitatively and qualitatively greater than the sacrifices we would have to make to achieve it.ramana wrote:nachiket, What brihaspatiji is saying is a goal. What you are saying are the practical impediments to achieving the goal. What is needed is to take a wholistic view and work around the impediments.
...If all we say is neti, neti, how can we bring about vasudeva kutumbam? Through out the ages there were visionaries who tried to square the circle and at crucial times there were interventions which subverted the process.
Maybe, but how can we assume that they would want to be a part of a united India? Majority of Muslims who left India for Pakistan in 1947 wanted a separate country. Those who did'nt stayed back. What can cause this to change?ramana wrote:The key change that has come over TSP is from the Islamization drive launched in 1970s. And the support from West and PRC. As all social engineering projects it can be reversed.
Do we even know for sure that our own people want to recliam Pakistan?
I am sure there is a sizable number like me who don't want to touch that sorry excuse for a country with a barge pole.
brihaspati wrote:nachiketji,
I appreciate your reservations. Ramanaji has already answered for me to a great extent. But in many pages of this thread in the earlier part we had thrashed out reasons and arguments for what I have stated above. May I request you to go over these earlier posts and give me your opinion to the specifics?
Prem wrote:Pathans, Sindhsi, Balochs etc are all secured in their identity . Onlee Pakjabis need "Sudhaar" and there are many way to do such "reforms; if you understand their history. the one way to straighten the dog's tail is to cut it it into small pieces.
brihaspati wrote:nachiketji,
I will try to briefly summarize the main points in favour of incorporation of the territories currently occupied by GOTSP.
(1) Strategic necessity:
(a) As long as a separate and independent entity of TSP remains it will continue to try everything in its power to bleed India, take over Kashmir, and further expand its dream of a Mughalistan. This means undercover operations, terror attacks, or even formal invasions on India.
(b) As long as TSP exists, it will be seen as an instrument to pressurize and manipulate India by outside powers like USA, UK and PRC. Which means certain weaknesses for India in international bargaining situations. Such bargaining can extend not only in purely foreign interests for India, but also have impact internally on India in its economy and internal security situation.
(c) Even if TSP is not trying to infiltrate, terrorize, or invade at any given instant of historical time, India has to maintain a large portion of its defence efforts and expenditure all along the western borders, from POK to Gujarat. This is more than a normal border maintenance operation becuase of persistent vicious hostility from the Paksitani side.
(d) Independent TSP provides alternative routes to the IO for PRC as well as a means of separating India physically from the CAR, and Iran - all vital for Indias future energy and further strategic needs.
(e) Independent TSP provides locations for nuclear weapons delivery system targeting India, by proxy, by PRC. Without this PRC is restricted to submarine based and Tibet based ones only. It also provides naval facilities to hostile powers like PRC at ports like Gwadar.
(2) Social necessity :
(a) destruction of TSP means the final acknowledgement that the original touted purpose of TSP as a beacon and hope for Muslims on the subcontinent was a false one. Muslims in India have to realize that they cannot have a non Bharatyia future, and none of their fondly looked forward cultural centres outside of India have ever done anything or will do anything positive for their future. As long as TSP exists, the political and military false hope remains and an alternative to integration with the mainstream remains. Submergence within the main Bharatyia stream can only be possible when no alternatives are left for social esteem through a separate and distinct identity.
(b) destruction of TSP and its incorporation finally paves the way for healing the trauma of Partition. Access to pilgrimage centres and cultural centres of the Sikhs and Hindus and possible resettlement options after potential "collateral damages". At the least we can expect "some" of our people to be liberal enough by tradition to "socially" heal trauma after conflict where the male population of Pakjab gets severely reduced in offering marriage to surviving women.![]()
(c) the greatest destroyer of parochialism and ethnic/religious xenophobia is genetic and marital mixing. Opportunities for this can only be exploited within a single unified socio-political framework.
(3) Governance :
(a) Socio-economic reform striking at the base of Islamic retrogression can only be done under a unified state. The first reform is educational, striking at the base of the Madrassah based social control that generates terror on India.
(b) For a long time after reincorporation, there has to be strong administrative and legal mesaures that prevents or controls flow of people out of incorporated territories, and a staged and staggered intrdouction of democratic reforms. Prior to political reforms, economic and social reforms are necessary - especially land-reforms - that is the key to break the backbone of the feudal landowning class at the head of Pakistani politics right from the beginning and the chief criminals behind the trauma of formation of TSP and the Partition.
I do agree with you that a lot of Indians would have strong reservations against incorporations of the lands and peoples currently occupied by GOTSP. But the long term prosperity and peace for all peoples in the subcontinent is crucially dependent on unification under a common rashtra and world-view. I hope you understand why I am asking all to consider taking up this vision alongside the purely economic one we are pursuing now, and which is still not touching large sections of our own populations and which has every possibility of getting jeopardized in the long run if the TSP problem is not solved.
Kashmir or Balochistan is not the "problem" - there is no "Kashmir problem" or "Kashmir issue" but only a "TSP problem" or "TSP issue".
surinder wrote:B,
That was a great summary. I am afraid I was beginning to agree with Nachiketa, until I read what you wrote.
A few things to add:
This is vital. The idea of TSP has be killed and stamped out. It has to be stamped out in ways that it never EVER takes root again. 1971 wounded that idea, but did not shatter it completely.destruction of TSP means the final acknowledgement that the original touted purpose of TSP as a beacon and hope for Muslims on the subcontinent was a false one.
I would rephrase it as follows: M's in India can have a non-Bhartiya future for sure, but without Bharatiya land. E.g. they can immigrate to KSA and adopt Arabic as mother tougue and listen to tinny Arabic music, we couldn't care less.Muslims in India have to realize that they cannot have a non Bharatyia futureBut it has to be sans Bharatiya land.
But the incorporation of TSP has to be done in practical ways. Lands across the Indus can be Vassal states, nominally Independent. Baluch can be a protectorate, or independent. Most of West Punjab will have to return to India. Regarding population, large scale expulsions (voluntary or involuntary) might have to occur. We cannot take in 200 million of momins. And most importantly Sikhs have to get back Lahore & their religious places.
Unfortunately, most of this requires a level of intensity and sacrifice that the Indic have not displayed in abundance in recent past. Something will have to change. That is the impractical part.