Indian Military Aviation

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 24 Jun 2009 05:14

Mihir wrote:
sunilUpa wrote:What is this in IAF colors? From Paris Air show 2009.
source - militaryphotos.net posted by Xav
Its the An-74MP

http://www.antonov.com/news/index.xml?n ... 090209.xml

Ok here is some interesting bit of news..

Tymoshenko hopes Ukraine will sign contract with India for supply of An-74 aircraft

Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko has said she hopes that Ukraine will deepen its cooperation with India in the military and transport sector and sign a contract to supply An-74 aircraft to India.

"We're currently cooperating in the implementation of a large order for An-74 aircraft," she said after a meeting with Indian Ambassador to Ukraine Debabrata Saha in Kyiv on Tuesday.

During their meeting, the premier and the ambassador exchanged copies of contracts for the modernization and reconstruction of An-32 aircraft for the Indian Air Force.

The contract estimates that it will cost around UAH 3.5 billion to modernize the 118 An-32 planes operated by the Indian Air Force.

Tymoshenko said that Antonov Design Bureau would be the general contractor for the implementation of the contract, and added that nine plants would work on its implementation.

Err implementing the large order for An-74?

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 24 Jun 2009 06:26

From,

Round 8 of Fight to Keep C-17 Long Beach Production Line Open

Also happening last week was a report that the Indian Air Force, IAF, has "short listed" an order for 10 C-17s. IAF chief of air staff, air chief marshal PV Naik, has been quoted as saying "the aircraft's selection has been made". We asked Boeing about this and here's the official response: "We are aware of recent press reports and Boeing would be pleased to offer the C-17 to the Indian Air Force, but the IAF or MoD can best answer this question about their procurement plans. The C-17 was a superb performer at both the 2007 and 2009 Aero India shows in Bangalore where members of the MoD and the Indian Air Force had the opportunity to see the aircraft in action. We believe the C-17 can fulfill India’s needs for military and humanitarian strategic lift to help it meet its growing domestic and regional responsibilities."
If this order comes through for Boeing, the line would be well into 2012 and that's beyond your Editor's planning horizon!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jun 2009 07:27

Sontu/Lalmohan,

IIRC during Cope Thunder, when the IAF Jags visited Alaska, there was an interesting story that hit the net. It seems during one of the sessions the Jags were tasked to "attack" a certain area - with the help of Japanese AWACS. Well - as the story goes - the AWACS for some reason did not turn up (to provide cover that is) - so the Jags had no help what so ever. But the Jags not knowing what was going on pressed ahead, dropped their load and came back to base - evading all defenses without any help -- both ways.

When asked how they did that the reply was 'that is the way we train in India'.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 24 Jun 2009 07:40

JaiS wrote:From,

Round 8 of Fight to Keep C-17 Long Beach Production Line Open
Also happening last week was a report that the Indian Air Force, IAF, has "short listed" an order for 10 C-17s. IAF chief of air staff, air chief marshal PV Naik, has been quoted as saying "the aircraft's selection has been made".

From the latest Vayu interview, Air Chief PV Naik had only said this

IAF plans to induct Heavy Lift Transport Aircraft and Heavy Lift helicopters from 2013 onwards as per Long Term Prospective Plan. A case to procure these aircraft has already been initiated and it is envisaged that selection and procurement processes would be completed as per our plan

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Jun 2009 11:56

Adding to the Jag low level flight dicussion, have had the opportunity to see Jags in action (training sorties and bombing run) somewhere in North Punjab. Believe me, these guys use every nook and cranny of elevation to hide behind or fly very low and suddenly pop up to bomb their targets. So much so that, in one case yours truly was on top of hillock and a pair of Jags flew by at a level 'lower' than the place I was standing; the idea was to take cover behind the said feature while approaching the target (which btw was a concentration of tanks from one of Armoured Bdes in region)

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jun 2009 21:07

Image of cockpit:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... /35421.jpg

http://livefist.blogspot.com/

"IAF An-32 Avionics Upgrade Detailed"

LiveFist has learnt that the avionics of the An-32 will be replaced with an IAI-LAHAV-ELTA developed package, including a full glass cockpit with standard multi-function displays (MFDs) and a control display unit (CDU).

The LAHAV-ELTA avionics package that will go into each IAF An-32 includes a digital moving map, full NVG capability, in-flight mission rehearsal options, head-up display for both pilots (the IAF is still to communicate the the consortium if it wants HUDs for both pilots, one pilot, or none at all) and a significantly new advanced electronic warfare system (EWS), which will feature radar warning receiver, the fourth generation EL/M-2160 missile approach warning system, laser warning receiver and conventional countermeasures. Flight safety features being incorporated into the upgrade will include an advanced Terrain Avoidance Warning System (TAWS) and an Enhanced Traffic Collision Avoidance System (ETCAS), with options for a specialised weather radar.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 24 Jun 2009 22:10

^^^

All that for $400 million? i.e less than 4 million/plane. There must be separate contract with IAI worth atleast $400 million more. Ukranians will do the integration/flighr testing job.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jun 2009 23:15

As part of the $402-million deal to upgrade 105 Aviant/Antonov An-32 of the Indian Air Force will involve a comprehensive engine and integrated avionics updation ..................

The upgrade will be undertaken by Antonov/Aviant and IAI jointly. ......................................

$3.83 Mil/An-32.

What is impressive is Israeli involvement in all USSR origin equipment.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 25 Jun 2009 00:45

large numbers of Russian jewish scientists and engineers migrated to Israel following glasnost, so not entirely a random consequence

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Jun 2009 00:59

sunilUpa wrote:^^^ All that for $400 million? i.e less than 4 million/plane. There must be separate contract with IAI worth atleast $400 million more. Ukranians will do the integration/flighr testing job.

and IIRC the total cost of the entire package was less than that when we bought it in the 80's !

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 25 Jun 2009 02:19

UAE is almost ready to acquire the Rafale, its fleet of 63 Mirage 2000-9's are for sale, per this.
Will India be interested?

submittal last week to the French government of final technical requirements for a 6-10 billion euro ($8.3-13.8 billion) 60-aircraft purchase by the United Arab Emirates late last week.Dassault Aviation officials say the document signifies basic agreement on the specifications, permitting the two sides to proceed to negotiation of pricing and financing terms. The French also will have to help find a buyer for the UAE's fleet of 63 Mirage 2000-9 fighters, which the Rafale will replace.

Isn't the price $138 - 230 Million per Rafale - I assume this includes armaments, ground support, training etc. too expensive?

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 25 Jun 2009 05:33

The IAF's new Very Heavy Transport Aircraft?

NRao wrote: $3.83 Mil/An-32.

Different numbers of An-32 for the upgrade depending upon the sources.

Livefist = 105

BR = 80 in service, with total numbers procured = 110

Ukrainian government web-portal = 118

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 25 Jun 2009 06:18

I think Livefist is more on the dot . approx 118-122 were procured , 12-15 may be out of service by now. So I think 105 is quite accurate.

The An-32s cost approx Rs 3.1 Cr each in 1981 money.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jun 2009 06:24

UAE is almost ready to acquire the Rafale, its fleet of 63 Mirage 2000-9's are for sale, per this.
Will India be interested?

The article also states that the UAE will replace the Mirages in 2013. So, "Indian interest" should take that into account.

Different numbers of An-32 for the upgrade depending upon the sources.

In which case the livefist number is the worst case scenario. The other numbers will only bring the cost-per-plane figure down.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 25 Jun 2009 10:06

p_saggu wrote:UAE is almost ready to acquire the Rafale, its fleet of 63 Mirage 2000-9's are for sale, per this.
Will India be interested?

submittal last week to the French government of final technical requirements for a 6-10 billion euro ($8.3-13.8 billion) 60-aircraft purchase by the United Arab Emirates late last week.Dassault Aviation officials say the document signifies basic agreement on the specifications, permitting the two sides to proceed to negotiation of pricing and financing terms. The French also will have to help find a buyer for the UAE's fleet of 63 Mirage 2000-9 fighters, which the Rafale will replace.
Isn't the price $138 - 230 Million per Rafale - I assume this includes armaments, ground support, training etc. too expensive?

No, we should skip the mirage completely. Order more LCA with GE F404 engine if there is an urgent need. There is no need to pay 40-50 million for used mirages with upgrades. Just not worth the cost.

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 25 Jun 2009 10:33

Cybaru wrote:
No, we should skip the mirage completely. Order more LCA with GE F404 engine if there is an urgent need. There is no need to pay 40-50 million for used mirages with upgrades. Just not worth the cost.

Hear, hear!

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 25 Jun 2009 12:00

I agree, by 2013 LCA-BLK2 should be about done and will be better than M2k-9. Not to mention much cheaper.

nash · Post by **nash** » 25 Jun 2009 13:22

me too LCA-BLK2 with AESA,IRST\FLIR,DIRCM,DRFM,MAWS,RWJ,etc,etc...
and not to forget,with phalcon support,will be more handy than M2K-9..

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 25 Jun 2009 16:00

God bless Shaheed Nayakuddin,

Got this from his spiritual e-mail.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 25 Jun 2009 16:25

vaman wrote:God bless Shaheed Nayakuddin,
Got this from his spiritual e-mail.

In the first interview with ACM Naik, the stress on long term planning is unmistakable. It appears that for the first time perhaps the IAF is finally getting a chance to take plan for future and arm itself accordingly.

Also note that he says that IAF has now evolved from a tactical AF.

Good tidings. I hope the IAF gets there quickly before it is asked to do with what it has today.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 26 Jun 2009 03:53

Jagan, I am inclined to believe the 105 number as well, Kyivpost states the same number as well.

A contract worth about $400 million for repairing and modernizing the 105 An-32 aircraft of the Indian Air Force was signed on June 15 between the air force of the Defense Ministry of India and SpetsTechnoExport, a subsidiary of state Ukrainian company UkrSpetsExport, which had won a tender announced in December 2007. The contract was signed at Le Bourget, a bi-annual air show in Paris where Ukraine traditionally takes part.

According to the source, the major contractor of the four-year contract will be the Antonov Design Bureau in Kyiv.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 28 Jun 2009 10:44

3D rendering of earlier 'tailless' MCA.

And the website: Link

arun · Post by **arun** » 28 Jun 2009 12:14

JaiS wrote:Jagan, I am inclined to believe the 105 number as well, Kyivpost states the same number as well.

A contract worth about $400 million for repairing and modernizing the 105 An-32 aircraft of the Indian Air Force was signed on June 15 between the air force of the Defense Ministry of India and SpetsTechnoExport, a subsidiary of state Ukrainian company UkrSpetsExport, which had won a tender announced in December 2007. The contract was signed at Le Bourget, a bi-annual air show in Paris where Ukraine traditionally takes part.

According to the source, the major contractor of the four-year contract will be the Antonov Design Bureau in Kyiv.

Ukranian Government press release on the AN-32 upgrade.

The comment of the Ukranian Prime Minster Yulia Tymoshenko seems to suggest 118 AN-32’s are to be upgraded:

Ukraine and India conclude contract on modernization of AN-32 planes to the tune of UAH 3.5 billion

23.06.2009 | 13:15 | Office of mass media relations of Secretariat of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine

Prime Minister of Ukraine Yulia Tymoshenko and Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary Ambassador of India to Ukraine Debabrata Saha have made an exchange with contracts concerning modernization of AN-32 planes for the military aviation of India.

During the festive ceremony of exchange with contracts Yulia Tymoshenko announced that the contract on upgrade and overhaul of the planes amounting UAH 3.5 proves a great support for aviation domain and for Ukraine in whole under conditions of the global financial crisis.

According to the Premier, this event is the evidence that Ukrainian aircrafts are reliable, that’s why other world countries are wishing to see them both in the system of economy and in their arsenal. “This contract enables to give second life to 118 AN-32 planes of Ukrainian production, having served faithfully to India for 25 years,” Yulia Tymoshenko emphasized.

Yulia Tymoshenko accentuated modernization and reconstruction of planes will be performed by nine planes, notably the Antonov Aeronautical Scientific-Technical Complex, which under the contract is determined as main contractor.

Thereupon, the Prime Minister informed that new models of An-series planes are extremely reliable and can be used in all areas of life: “I would like to encourage India to be partners in purchase of aircrafts of new series also”.

Besides, the Premier imparted Ukraine and India are engaged into the project of realization of a huge order of An-74 aircrafts which are to be applied in the system of military-technical cooperation. “Our bail-out program is acting in the direction of revival of the aviation domain of Ukraine,” Yulia Tymoshenko stressed.

In his turn, the Ambassador of India to Ukraine Debabrata Saha called fascinating the fact that Ukrainian specialists would be able to modernize and reconstruct the planes having worked for 25 years. “Ukraine is noted for being the country of sophisticated specialists,” the Ambassador emphasized.

He also expressed assurance that Ukraine and India would cooperate not only in the area of modernization of aircrafts but in many others. “There exist huge opportunities for cooperation between the two countries in economic, military-technical, space fields,” Debabrata Saha urged.

CLICKY

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Jun 2009 13:56

I had an "Aha!" moment while watching video linked below. Please bear with me - i.e don't laugh.

Everyone (or at least a lot of people) were pissed off at the fact that Indian Light Combat helicopter did no have its video/IR/Laser senor pod mounted below the nose but (seemingly stupidly) had it placed above the nose. The argument was of course that targets would be below and would be missed.

But what if targets are situated at eye level, or above and to either side - such as mountainsides as the helo itself snakes around peaks and flies through valleys?

PS that man looks like a BRF member I know.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 28 Jun 2009 15:00

HAL cancels tender for co-developing medium-lift choppers
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_ha ... rs_1268433

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 28 Jun 2009 15:34

Any idea what happened to the New Aerospace Museum that IAF was building?

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 28 Jun 2009 16:00

An 74 Model in IAF colors at the Paris Air Show Src: Military Photos

BajKhedawal · Post by **BajKhedawal** » 30 Jun 2009 03:44

Posting in full since its a tiny article:

IAF aircraft to film total solar eclipse

Pioneer News Service | New Delhi

The IAF will deploy two aircraft to film the rare total solar eclipse in India on July 22. While one transport aircraft AN-32 with a team of scientists from Vigyan Prasar and a crew of Doordarshan will take off from Patna or Bagdogra and track the setting sun up to Agra, the Mirage fighter jet will film the sequence around Gwalior.

Giving details here on Monday, officials said the AN-32 along with a team of four scientists of Vigyan Prasar, an autonomous body of the department of science and technology and the Institute of Astrophysics, Bangalore and the television crew will carry out a simulated run on July 21 at Patna or Bagdogra.

Explaining the reason for the practise run, they said the AN-32 will fly with its tail ramp bolted down to enable the scientists and television crew to have a clear view of the solar eclipse .

However, the strong draft of air coming in will have to be factored in and the scientists and the crew will be strapped with safety belts and provided with oxygen masks. In order to familiarise them with this operational drill and safety precautions, the IAF will conduct practise runs on July 21, they said.

Sean Wilson · Post by **Sean Wilson** » 30 Jun 2009 23:04

Sontu wrote:also I feel that in the near future the Jag IS versions should also be equipped with EL/M-2032 like IMs.

I recently visited AFS Ambala to compile a report on the Jaguar. Unfortunately I have very little information on the Jaguar IM so I am hoping some of you guys can help me.

A contract was signed with Elta in 1996 for the supply of ten EL/M-2032 multimode fire control radars to replace the original nose-mounted Agave system. Have any of the IMs received this new radar and if so how many of the approx. 10 IMs remaining have been upgraded?

Some Jaguar IS/IT have been upgraded to DARIN II standard. Does anyone know if the IMs have had any avionics upgrades yet? The IMs were also due to have electronic warfare pods integrated. Has this taken place or has precedence been given to Jaguar IS upgrades?

username changed to comply with guidelines. you can ask for
an username of your choice.welcome to BR,
Rahul.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 30 Jun 2009 23:57

Sean Wilson wrote:
Sontu wrote:also I feel that in the near future the Jag IS versions should also be equipped with EL/M-2032 like IMs.
I recently visited AFS Ambala to compile a report on the Jaguar. Unfortunately I have very little information on the Jaguar IM so I am hoping some of you guys can help me.

A contract was signed with Elta in 1996 for the supply of ten EL/M-2032 multimode fire control radars to replace the original nose-mounted Agave system. Have any of the IMs received this new radar and if so how many of the approx. 10 IMs remaining have been upgraded?

Some Jaguar IS/IT have been upgraded to DARIN II standard. Does anyone know if the IMs have had any avionics upgrades yet? The IMs were also due to have electronic warfare pods integrated. Has this taken place or has precedence been given to Jaguar IS upgrades?

username changed to comply with guidelines. you can ask for
an username of your choice.welcome to BR,
Rahul.

Brother Wilson,

Welcome on board.

A friendly word of caution.

Such pointed questions may not get you the desired replies on an open forum.

Cheers.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Jul 2009 00:02

Welcome Wilson.

Where will this report on Jaguars show up??

As for your questions - unless it shows up on open source - one will have to just wait.

Sean Wilson · Post by **Sean Wilson** » 01 Jul 2009 00:25

Thank you for the welcome gentlemen.

The Jaguar report will be published in AIR International sometime in the next few months. A similar article on the MiG-21 Bison will appear in Combat Aircraft in September.

The Jaguar pilots at Ambala were happy to talk about the Jaguar but seeing as none of them had any experience of the Jaguar IM they could not help me with any updates.

I was merely looking for clarify a few points. It is widely known that the IAF were looking to replace the Agave radar of the Jaguar IM and as such had signed a contract for the supply of new EL/M-2032 radars. I simply wanted to know if anyone knew if these has actually been fitted.

The details of the Jaguar IS DARIN series upgrades are also widely known. Again I was merely looking to find out if the Jaguar IM had received a similar upgrade.

Regards

Dr Sean Wilson.

Edit: The Jaguar article will also appear in Vayu.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Jul 2009 00:28

did I see a report that all IMs were fitted with the 2032 or is my memory playing tricks ?

IIRC this was the same time when the new cone shaped nose of the IS was discussed here.
don't think info on EW pods of IMs has been ever made public.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Jul 2009 01:16

Sean Wilson wrote:Thank you for the welcome gentlemen.

The Jaguar report will be published in AIR International sometime in the next few months. A similar article on the MiG-21 Bison will appear in Combat Aircraft in September.

The Jaguar pilots at Ambala were happy to talk about the Jaguar but seeing as none of them had any experience of the Jaguar IM they could not help me with any updates.

I was merely looking for clarify a few points. It is widely known that the IAF were looking to replace the Agave radar of the Jaguar IM and as such had signed a contract for the supply of new EL/M-2032 radars. I simply wanted to know if anyone knew if these has actually been fitted.

The details of the Jaguar IS DARIN series upgrades are also widely known. Again I was merely looking to find out if the Jaguar IM had received a similar upgrade.

Regards

Dr Sean Wilson.

Brother Dr Wilson,

No offence. You are still welcome on board.

We live in a tough neighborhood.

Misgiving comes with the territory.

Some of the details you are looking for may well fall under the purview of our wondrous colonial inspired relic, the Official Secrets Act.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Jul 2009 06:30

Sean Wilson wrote: I was merely looking for clarify a few points. It is widely known that the IAF were looking to replace the Agave radar of the Jaguar IM and as such had signed a contract for the supply of new EL/M-2032 radars. I simply wanted to know if anyone knew if these has actually been fitted.

A mock-up of the front fuselage and cockpit of the Jag at Aero India 2009 featured a distinctive black conical nose cone which stated as part of the "next upgrade" which would (IIRC) include the 2032 and some other things including an IFR probe. I was too busy photographing the wimmens of aero India to listen to details. I haven't actually seen any jags with this nosecone flying around - although I do see jags around.

naird · Post by **naird** » 01 Jul 2009 09:37

Question to all guru's out there....

Is there any website which gives out details out for no of flying hours (past or present). Also how many hours does a IAF pilot log in general ? Nato pilots log in about 180 - 220 hours per annum.

Air Marshal Naik has logged about 3000 hours , is that a considerable flying experience ? I surfed through F16 websites, US pilots have logged about 6000 hours on F 16 and 4000 hours are a common thing....Couldnt find any Indian pilot doing the same thing with their aircrafts.

I tried to google this information , no relevant results.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 01 Jul 2009 10:35

Indian flight hours are similar to NATO's. Assuming an average of 200 hours per year, it is 2000 hours in 10 years, and 4000 in 20 years. As you go higher up the ranks especially wing commander and above, the amount of flying too reduces. So 3000-4000 hours by the time they occupy staff positions isn't out of the ordinary.

Plus during some periods, like when Soviet Union collapsed and we had shortage of spares etc, the flying hours were curtailed too.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 01 Jul 2009 10:47

Will An-32 upgarde include new engines also??

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 01 Jul 2009 11:43

IAF to take part in international air mobility competition

Washington (PTI): The Indian Air Force will take part in the international air mobility competition to be held in the US this month, organisers of the event announced on Wednesday.

To be staged from July 19 to July 25, 'Air Mobility RODEO 2009' is being hosted by Air Mobility Command at Washington- based McChord Air Force Base of the US Air Force.

More than 100 teams and 2,500 people from the US and friendly nations are expected to compete or observe in the week-long event which focuses on improving worldwide air mobility forces' professional core abilities.

The last RODEO readiness competition also took place at McChord Air Force Base in July 2007.

The competition started in 1956 as the "Reserve Troop Carrier Rodeo", while the first active duty airdrop competition occurred in April 1962.

An important long-term benefit, the US Air Force said, is increased cooperation between air mobility forces among participating nations.

Collectively, the ultimate goal of the competition is to develop and improve techniques and procedures that enhance air mobility operations.

"Not only does this world-class competition train mobility forces for the fight, it provides a forum for our international partners to share the best of tactics and techniques," said Maj Gen Brooks Base, AMC Directorate of Air, Space and Information Operations commander and RODEO 2009 commander.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jul 2009 11:52

The Base is just south of Seattle - home of Boeing.