Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 14 Feb 2010 02:52

Harbans/Rudra,

Please guys for India's sake, you are not enemeies, TSP is the enemy of both of you. We have a situation at hand that needs to be dealt with. No point raising BP against each other.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 14 Feb 2010 02:54

harbans wrote:Enough of your nonsense. I challenge you to substantiate this statement, or retract your words.

Mods, I realize this is off topic but the equal-equal here is utterly nauseating.

What 'nonsense' are you talking about? If you want to point some fallacy, there is something called a civil manner.

Indeed, ABV was the one who got Pariah Gola out of the woods. Even the US was shunning him till he invited him to Agra. MMS at least started talking hard about getting Pakistan getting to trial perpetrators of 26-11. What ABV did was worse, there were no condition even put regarding apprehending the Kandahar hijackers before talks. THey were and still do roam around freely.

Of course, there is the response to the IC-814 hijacking that everyone loves to blame on ABV and Jaswant Singh. There we saw a government buckle under intense domestic pressure from public opinion. Goaded by the leftist TV channels, the relatives of the hostages were making a media spectacle of themselves. Finally the government caved in. I don't know if it was a good solution or not, but it is certainly no yardstick to measure the "dhimmitude" of the ABV regime as opposed to the present regime.

And that's what you say, talking subjectively about yardsticks. I know many who were disgusted with ABV and JS. And they have a right to be disgusted. Moreover what pressure was put on Pakistan for apprehending the culprits of IC 814? Do you remember any as you see for the 26-11 episode? No. Instead they invited the dictator who made them look like fools at Agra. Short memory?

And by what authority do you say one cannot criticize ABV or JS? Or MMS? Calling someone Dhimmi is not an abuse. It's a connotation of a state of mind. Do you want this forum to restrict valid and existing criticism of Politicians and Political parties?

I think the Mods should clarify on this. Take back your unnecessary personal attack on me. It's uncalled for and contrarily you've proved nothing that i said was nonsense.

Even if you were in MMS's shoes you'd behave like this. ABV behaved even worse and more dhimmi. LKA and JS too

You have accused ABV's government of behaving *worse*. That is nonsense and I have said so (where is the "personal attack" in calling your statement "nonsense"?).

ABV did not get Gola out of the woods; have you forgotten that Clinton visited Gola as a head of state after his trip to Delhi in 1999?

And whatever happened at Agra, it pales utterly in comparison to Besharam-al-Sheikh. Nobody at Agra agreed to de-link dialogue from terrorism as a matter of policy; nobody made statements that could be interpreted as equal-equal implications of India's involvement in Baluchistan. If anybody "looked like fools" at Agra it was the Indian media for fawning on the dictator; not the GOI who had invited him in good faith, allowed him to say his piece and sent him home empty handed.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Feb 2010 03:00

CRams ji, i totally agree. But there are folks here, who think that it's just easy to strike XYZ targets in Pakistan and that would reduce terror or bring about a change in Pakistan. Or that if we amass troops like in Parakram and carry out brinkmanship, somehow the West will pressure Pakistan. I mentioned earlier these policies along with MMS's Aman Ki Asha are two sides of the same coin that will never have success as far as Pakistan's motives regarding India are. And one must see them as such. We have to look beyond both these knee jerk reactionary measures being used and propagated to curb terror against us. I'm just putting a perspective up. It's open to debate. To correction. To criticism. All can be done easily in a civil manner. It's not too difficult really.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 14 Feb 2010 03:09

How to shift blame and insulate ruling establishment

Barkha Dutt

@mehv_ i just know that america cannnot justify not letting us interrorgate headley. dont care if he was their agent or double agent

clear by now that mumbai was not headley's only target. he had a trail. indian sleuths need to meet him to nail the trail

frankly, america hiding behind techinical mumbo jumbo and not giving indians access to headly makes me mad

Reply Retweet vibhushan @BDUTT Completely agree with your last tweet. Shivraj Patil was such a waste and embarrassment for whole of the country
Retweeted by BDUTT and 1 other

how long is america going to continue deny Indian investigators access to Headley. This blast gives more basis for our guys to meet him

Reply Retweet subhadeep_c @BDUTT couldn't agree more, patil would have had 5 change of clothes by now http://myloc.me/3NaNA
Retweeted by BDUTT and 1 other

@upednekar Think chidambaram has always been open and honest about indias vulnerabilities despite his best efforts

@girdhar123 because how many places can you cordon off?

though one thing is for sure. thank god chidambaram is home minister and not shivraj patil

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Feb 2010 03:11

You have accused ABV's government of behaving *worse*. That is nonsense and I have said so (where is the "personal attack" in calling your statement "nonsense"?).

What was the Lahore trip and the Minar e Pakistan trip all about? I remember that time very well. And no, the Agra summit was more heavily criticized than SeS. Also there are reports that ABV possibly knew that some infiltration was on when he was in Lahore. At the minimum we know that Paki's were occupying Indian bunkers readying for Kargil then.

ABV did not get Gola out of the woods; have you forgotten that Clinton visited Gola as a head of state after his trip to Delhi in 1999?

Have you forgotten how insulting that trip was to Gola? 5 days in India vs 5 hours, decoy aircrafts. Makeshift tent speech and some hard questions put to Gola. US SD officials said that trip was made because Paki's put a gun to their heads. Seems you're out of touch with happenings then. Your focus on these matters is obviously quite recent.

And whatever happened at Agra, it pales utterly in comparison to Besharam-al-Sheikh. Nobody at Agra agreed to de-link dialogue from terrorism as a matter of policy;

Oh totally wrong. It legitimized Musharaff. It forgot the terror perpetrated in Kandahar. It never even once demanded arrest of the Hijackers of IC 814, or the Killers of Rupin Katyal. It never once asked Musharaff to seek redress for the killers of Lt Saurabh Kalia and 5 others of 4 Jat. Big smiles and straight discussion on Kashmir.

You clearly have forgotten the last deadly spells of terror and war on India. And India's reaction. I'm not politically affiliated in any sense, however i reserve my right to criticize any and all politicians. You're trying your utter best that we forget that spell, which should not be for an instance. This dhimmitude extends across the political spectrum. And you clearly fail to see it.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 14 Feb 2010 03:14

I would advise patience even though we are gut-feeling certain that this was Pakistan.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Feb 2010 03:30

Xposting a relevent point made by Vera ji. Would like to hear Rudradev's views.

Question is if USA continues to want the preservation of Pakistan just as it did in 1971. All indications on this front are that nothing much has changed in the intervening decades.

Vera ji, this is exactly the point., This will go on irrespective of who's in power. India does not have military options, India does not have Aman ki Asha options with this entity called Pakistan. People think that this government is bad another with spine will make a difference. Sorry, it won't happen. Becauset he fundamentals of the problem are beyond what anyone can tackle. Make Rudra the PM, what are his options? Another Parakrama? That should have ended terror if it was successful. It did not. Why? Because the institutions behind it were never satisfactorily dismantled. Why were they not dismantled or why if they were dismantled, they were put under some charity etc. But they were not really dismantled, why? Because this Paki state wants to do with India what India should now do with them. Dismantling. We have been lulled into thinking that these people want to exist in equilibrium with us. In peace with us. Whether it's ABV or MMS or IKG or IG, ultimately all of them exuded faith in the fact that Pakistan can be a stable entity one day.

Problem here is people still think there are solutions that work. Like military ones like Parakrama or on the opposite side Aman ki Asha. Well, lets hear more solutions on how to tame this terrorist state. Speak Rudra, i'm just spouting nonsense?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 14 Feb 2010 03:44

Cross-posting from the TSP thread.

This does not preclude taking actions within our control. The foremost is complete abstention from any kinds of "talks" with Pakistan, because talks simply lead to more terrorist attacks in India. Talks with Pakistan are happening only to find a way to relieve pressure on the NATO forces in Afghanistan, not because they are in our interests. I don't quite understand the hangup here - has Delhi refused to relieve NATO in AFG such that they are left with no other options?

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 14 Feb 2010 03:57

A_Gupta wrote:I would advise patience even though we are gut-feeling certain that this was Pakistan.

One starts with gut feeling, and then investigates, provides evidence, and brings the perpetrators to justics. All this woud require power projection and self confidemnce and honesty all of which India and lacks in this so called war on terror. This was operation carried out by IM/SIMI footsoldiers with the nerve center in Pindi.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 14 Feb 2010 04:03

harbans wrote:You have accused ABV's government of behaving *worse*. That is nonsense and I have said so (where is the "personal attack" in calling your statement "nonsense"?).

What was the Lahore trip and the Minar e Pakistan trip all about? I remember that time very well. And no, the Agra summit was more heavily criticized than SeS. Also there are reports that ABV possibly knew that some infiltration was on when he was in Lahore. At the minimum we know that Paki's were occupying Indian bunkers readying for Kargil then.

Nice attempt at spin there, but knowing in hindsight that Pakis were occupying Indian bunkers during ABV's Lahore trip is not the same as ABV's government knowing it was going on *at that time*.

Regardless, there isn't the slightest basis for claiming that dhimmitude on ABV's part was worse than MMS' dhimmitude today.

ABV did not get Gola out of the woods; have you forgotten that Clinton visited Gola as a head of state after his trip to Delhi in 1999?

Have you forgotten how insulting that trip was to Gola? 5 days in India vs 5 hours, decoy aircrafts. Makeshift tent speech and some hard questions put to Gola. US SD officials said that trip was made because Paki's put a gun to their heads. Seems you're out of touch with happenings then. Your focus on these matters is obviously quite recent.

US SD officials says that everything about US policy towards Pakistan is because Pakis put a gun to their heads. A little thinking on one's part reveals that this is a mere excuse. Clinton visited Pakistan and dealt with a Pakistan army chief executive who had usurped the state, as many an American leader had done before.

The point is that Musharraf had as much "legitimacy" as he could want, internationally, as a result of that visit. Nothing that ABV did by inviting Musharraf to Agra, in any way augmented that legitimacy.

And whatever happened at Agra, it pales utterly in comparison to Besharam-al-Sheikh. Nobody at Agra agreed to de-link dialogue from terrorism as a matter of policy;

Oh totally wrong. It legitimized Musharaff. It forgot the terror perpetrated in Kandahar. It never even once demanded arrest of the Hijackers of IC 814, or the Killers of Rupin Katyal. It never once asked Musharaff to seek redress for the killers of Lt Saurabh Kalia and 5 others of 4 Jat. Big smiles and straight discussion on Kashmir.

You clearly have forgotten the last deadly spells of terror and war on India. And India's reaction. I'm not politically affiliated in any sense, however i reserve my right to criticize any and all politicians. You're trying your utter best that we forget that spell, which should not be for an instance. This dhimmitude extends across the political spectrum. And you clearly fail to see it.

All of GOI's displeasure about the Kargil and IC814 atrocities had already been communicated to Islamabad in no uncertain terms. Agra may not have rehashed those incidents explicitly but neither did it promise Pakistan that India would keep dialogue going even if such incidents, and worse, continued to be perpetrated by TSPA/ISI. Sharm-el-Shaikh did exactly that.

Agra also never provided any leverage for Pakistan to make the equal-equal claim that India was also involved in sponsoring insurrections against Pakistan. Sharm-el-Shaikh did exactly that.

Agra was far from desirable but to compare it to Sharm-el-Shaikh... let alone describe it as "worse", is entirely baseless.

Your political affiliations are quite evident to those who read your views, regardless of any disclaimers you might present.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Feb 2010 04:07

This does not preclude taking actions within our control. The foremost is complete abstention from any kinds of "talks" with Pakistan, because talks simply lead to more terrorist attacks in India.

Agreed. There are 'actions' we can and must take. And these do not involve initiatives like Aman or military ones. These do involve things like not talking, cutting off MFN status, pressuring countries like Nepal to reduce ties, making other countries note FICN from Paki printing presses etc etc. These must never be stopped. So too the demand for getting the hijackers of IC 814, 26-11 in the dock along with Dawood. These should have been absolute benchmarks given to any Western nation demanding or pressuring India to talk. We did'nt do that in Agra. We're not doing all of these today.

This country did'nt abandon the Taliban and AQ to the US and NATO despite having the worlds best Army next door and despite being threatened to be bombed to stone age. They just manipulated and kept things goings somehow. Why? Because they have an objective much greater than putting up a poodle in Afghanistan. That's why they try strategic depth. That is Ghazwa E Hind. If they can bluff, deceive, stave off US pressure and still maintain the core aim to destabilize India and one day rule the subcontinent..can India think they can change that mentality? Can the to be Killer ever be a good friend of the intended victim?

Talks with Pakistan are happening only to find a way to relieve pressure on the NATO forces in Afghanistan, not because they are in our interests.

True. But why did India oblige. What is this administration in the US giving us in return for talking and going against a significant section of public opinion?

I don't quite understand the hangup here - has Delhi refused to relieve NATO in AFG such that they are left with no other options?

US too like India has been lulled into believing that TSP can be a normal state at peace with others. It's a mistake they are going to perpetuate for some time. If Indians themselves believe yes we can talk to them in Agra, Lahore, Havana, Egypt..and that Indians too believe that talks can solve the problem..who are they? They don't have majore problems with Pakistan. We do. So when we in retaliation to Paki terror mobilize, everyone except Paki's are worried. So they say please talk, Paki's will change. Point is talk or military mobilization won't budge this country from it's aim at destabilizing India. We have to internalize that at some point of time.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 14 Feb 2010 04:09

CRamS wrote:Harbans/Rudra,

Please guys for India's sake, you are not enemeies, TSP is the enemy of both of you. We have a situation at hand that needs to be dealt with. No point raising BP against each other.

CRamS,

Indeed Pakistan is the enemy. To counter such an enemy, we need a leadership that imbues the nation with a vertebral column. No amount of "unity" will save us if we don't have a spine... in the absence of a spine, unity only agglomerates us into a helpless quivering mass that presents a big fat target for the next terrorist strike.

ABV's government may have left much to be desired in dealing with Pakistan, and committed many mistakes; but for all its faults it had a vertebral column. I have listed three incidences where this became evident (Pokhran, Kargil and Parakram).

There is no basis, whatsoever, for comparing the present non-leadership with the ABV regime's admittedly faulty leadership, even in terms of being "equally" bad.

When someone compares it unfavorably, as being actually worse than the abysmal morass of confusion and groveling that passes for Indian foreign policy today... I consider that a clear distortion of history and must rebut it.

Nothing to do with blood pressure.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Feb 2010 04:32

Agra may not have rehashed those incidents explicitly but neither did it promise Pakistan that India would keep dialogue going even if such incidents, and worse, continued to be perpetrated by TSPA/ISI. Sharm-el-Shaikh did exactly that.

Agra was done after Kargil and IC 814. When no one invited Musharaff and kept a distance. You certainly were not focussed that time on Indo-Pak affairs at that time, since you say that. An article that period by Manoj Joshi to reflect: (excerpts)

Agra Flawed from Start Pakistan is the Real Core Issue

MANOJ JOSHI

THE last volley on the Agra summit was fired on Saturday when 15 dirt-poor farmers in Doda district were gunned down by general Pervez Musharraf`s ``freedom fighters``. Each shot is a nail in the coffin of those who say that the summit was a success, and of those who so casually ignore the reality of Pakistan-aided terrorism.

For over a decade, India has urged the world to take notice of this. In the last three years, courtesy Osama bin Laden, the world had begun to pay attention. In a stunning turnaround at Agra, the Vajpayee team appeared willing to downgrade this issue and to detach it from the subject of Kashmir. In agreeing to lump terrorism with narcotics, India played up to a caricatured belief that narcotics funds terrorism, not the Pakistani government.

Despite this, Pakistani dictator Pervez Musharraf has scored only a tactical victory. Strategically he stands little chance of achieving his goal, especially after his attempt to outflank Vajpayee. This is not surprising, Musharraf`s mindset is that of a commando. But military men know that commandos never win battles, leave alone wars, their main utility is psychological.

That is why Musharraf`s shock tactics have appeared to be so effective. Before Agra, he was a somewhat insecure dictator, shunned by the international community. Today, he is seen as a forceful leader who has compelled India to accept the centrality of Kashmir, has editors for breakfast and dishes out encomiums to prime minister Vajpayee and external affairs minister Jaswant Singh. His chutzpah is best summed up in his praise for the Indian media for fairness, and its Pakistani counterparts for their patriotism.

There is a section of Indian liberal opinion which believes that in offering a step-by-step dialogue, the general offers a chance for peace in Kashmir. The words `reality`, `realistic`, `flexibility` and `open-mindedness` have peppered his speeches and conversation. His calling Kashmir an `issue` rather than a `dispute` is seen as a sign of his reasonableness.

Musharraf could well be paraphrasing Humpty Dumpty who told Alice, ``When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.`` This is how `terrorists` become `freedom fighters` and a dictator lectures his audiences on freedom. It is all the more stark when he also leads a country that denies equal status to women and minorities, and which pleads for the rights of Kashmiris, even while 400,000 of its citizens are languishing in camps in Bangladesh since 1971.

In retelling history, largely false, of Indo-Pakistan problems, Musharraf revealed the abyss that separates the two countries. Kargil was in response to Siachen and the Indian support to the Mukti Bahini in 1971, said the general. But, he should know that it was the military government of Yahya Khan that thwarted the electoral verdict in favour of the Awami League, not India. In March-April 1971, the Indians were not in the picture when tens of thousands of East Pakistanis were killed by the largely West Pakistan army.

As for the `hurt and indignity` of Siachen, surely the general has a copy of the agreement detailing the Line of Control which ends abruptly at NJ9842, short of the glacier? As a special services group officer, he must be aware that both armies planned to occupy the glacier in the summer of 1984 and that the Indians won the day by arriving three months earlier. Kargil, on the other hand, was about crossing an LOC, recognised as such by both armies.
At the heart of the failure of the Agra summit is the mismatch in goals. Pakistan is clear about them: Acquisition of Jammu and Kashmir through force or negotiation. Indian aims appear, at best, confused. As of now they vacillate between wanting to combat the Pakistani proxy war effectively to negotiating a solution with Pakistan.

India seems to have lost its focus on the larger issue - that Kashmir became an `issue` or `dispute` because of Pakistani aggression. In 1963, in the wake of the defeat in the war with China, Nehru agreed to discuss partition with Pakistan because of Anglo-American pressure. This line of thinking was given a fillip at the Simla talks where India gave Bhutto an easy deal in exchange for a verbal promise to convert the LOC into an international border. Today, the government has reverted to the formal position that all of J&K is an `atut ang` of India. If so, why negotiate with Pakistan ? Surely not to persuade it to stop fuelling separatism and encouraging the terrorist acts of jehadis in the state.

India seems unwilling to deal with the consequences of acknowledging the real problem. Kashmir is not the central issue in Indo-Pakistan relations - it is the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Jinnah saw Pakistan as a democratic Muslim-majority state to protect the interests of India`s largest minority.

Your political affiliations are quite evident to those who read your views, regardless of any disclaimers you might present.

Not mine Rudra, yours are clear by your spirited appeal not to criticise ABV or JS. I've never had a word of support for congress on these boards. I've never voted for them. I have disregard for Nehru, IG, for their policies on China, Tibet, the Emergency and denial of war trials to Paki war criminals. So i know what i'm talking and where i stand, and don';t need a certificate from someone who's forgotten Agra. The only persons who i have regards for are LBS and PVNR. LBS because after the Paki attack on chicken neck he faced a very tough decision to strike across the IB. He did that and that saved the day. ABV could'nt make that decision in Kargil, though i don't blame him for it. Paki's had nukes. For the same reasons after lowered thresholds on the Paki side, the success of op P was doubtful. Indeed the Paki's gloat till this day Indians lost more soldiers there than in Kargil.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Feb 2010 04:38

When someone compares it unfavorably, as being actually worse than the abysmal morass of confusion and groveling that passes for Indian foreign policy today... I consider that a clear distortion of history and must rebut it.

You have no idea how history is repeating itself time and again Rudra. To deny this it, is condemning yourself to repeat follies. That's why it's evident you're just recently focussed on Paki perfidy. Maybe through these boards first time. Nothing wrong with that. But there are others who've been tuned into these sort of things for decades. Don't deride them.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 14 Feb 2010 04:50

except for some minor disagreements, excellent analysis by Vir Sanghvi. This is what needs to be conveyed to the Americans.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 14 Feb 2010 05:04

Harbans ji, BRF ites familiar with my postings on this forum since 2003 (and some Ive been involved with in related capacities before) are quite aware of my understanding of history , so let's leave it at that.

I do not demand that no one criticize ABV or his regime, and have done so myself numerous times, especially on Agra. What I object to is your assertion that what we were seeing then is *worse* than what we are seeing now. However bad Agra was it was no Sharm el Shaikh...that has unquestionably set a new paradigm in selling out Indian interests.

You continue to maintain that Parakram was "not a success". If it was a mobilization aimed at going to war it certainly was not. Yet as a coercive diplomatic instrument the figures (I have posted a link to them) speak for it's success in cutting down J and K terrorism and infiltration. If you can provide any alternative explanation for why the West was compelled to force Musharraf to curb infiltration post 2002, please present it.

Finally, yes I am honest enough to admit that I favor the NDA regime of Vajpayee over the ruinous situation that exists today, and have proffered my reasoning for this argument. You claim that you have no political affinity for Congress, while putting forward the completely baseless and factually indefensible assertion that the NDA was "worse" than what exists today. Forgive me but that sort of equal equal seems to suggest you are about as honestly unbiased as Stephen Cohen.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Feb 2010 05:29

What I object to is your assertion that what we were seeing then is *worse* than what we are seeing now. However bad Agra was it was no Sharm el Shaikh...that has unquestionably set a new paradigm in selling out Indian interests.

No, this is not the worst. The worst has already gone through. Nehru's acquiescence of Tibet's annexation. Nothing can be worse than that. IG's letting go Pakistan off the hook in 71 in Simla and their war criminals after a stunning defeat. Rajiv Gandhi despite a full majority delaying reforms till India's economy collapsed. Lahore summit, Agra as i mentioned all have been bad, if you observed them as it is despite BRF not being there those times. I've myself not been through all those, but most of those i've been through and i know the level of disgust i have felt. SeS is bad, there's no question about it. But don't delude yourself and others by claiming it's the worst thing that's happened in India's foreign policy. Does'nt speak much of you sense of history then.

You continue to maintain that Parakram was "not a success". If it was a mobilization aimed at going to war it certainly was not.

Thats precisely what it was meant to be. A mobilization meant to go to war. If you are implying that it was meant to pressurize US, then i'll say it's even worse. To pressurize US one needs to sacrifice 500 plus soldiers? ABV does'nt sound right one bit then to me. You're claiming now that the only way to pressure the US was sacrifice of 500 plus soldiers and risking nuclear war? That way we reduced terrorism in JK and the rest? And till when?

Finally, yes I am honest enough to admit that I favor the NDA regime of Vajpayee over the ruinous situation that exists today,

And thanks for acknowledging your political affiliations, i appreciate that. Next time be more honest rather than accusing someone else of political affiliations.

Please also learn that this 'dhimmitude' is not a new and recent phenomena. It's been around for donkey years. Just a rehash of old wine in new bottles. And that's why i was suggesting moving beyond the Amans and the Parakrama's.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 14 Feb 2010 05:38

To all posters who posted so far on this thread including me,

Things like this happened in the past and will happen in future ,unless India keeps a tab on US instead of pak.
It wont be an intellectual cause for India to deal with pakitan,since pakistan is a failed state which is getting its back door support from US to train its home grown terrorists aka freedom fighters.

May be it is the time to let the cat out of the bag and have a tough talk with US. Its obsession with CAR energy reserves and Iran shouldnt hurt Indians.

China being an enemy of India only offered weapons and monetary and political support to pakistani gov,but US went a step further and offered its unprecedented support to those terrorists. If pakistan today calling diving terrorists and good and bad does reflect the US opinion on the same.
Since jingoes here claim to be rock stars of history,they should review their own history books which dates back to 60`s when the US interference in the sub-continent buoyed.
If folks can call a Novice Nehru impotent in failing to deal with a fire breathing dragon,it does reflect the congress obsession with the west who called on shots since then.US interference changed the whole result of 62 skirmish.It is nothing new that the leadership of India bets on foreigners rather than on themself.This is was led to a bloody nose in 62 which later changed the course of the nation.{ root cause? US interference and peddling together with US}

US always dis-likes India.and an affection today due to our economic rise can not be taken as granted. Since then US dealing with porkistan flourished day by day.

Primarily we indians dont believe in ourself and always suffer with hanumanophia.Adding impetus to this we got some lame B@$tards in the name leaders who often love to fill thier coffins with currency rather than doing some good.

what did India do when it came to know that CIA was training mujahidheen and is providing maps? Nothing
what we did when US helped pakistan to become a nuclear state through back door? Nothing
If people think that China and Pak gov alone became the cause for the establishment of nuclear state, then they are all living in fantasy.

there is no point of stopping Indian investigative agencies from meeting david headly,but US did.and India apparently failed to take a stance.
If those headly and rana were thoroughly investigated,we might have been able to stop this recent attack.
People still living in fantasy to realize that some US promoted groups in India started taking on foreigners especially russians only to strain the relationship.Oooh well..... our congress leaders told me a different story......stop bushing.

Finally,I am not sure whether I made my points clear or not,but India definitely need to have a dialogue with US instead of pakistan. One can understand how deeply those US agency roots penetrated into India gov establishments and ministries by the return parcel from LM about the MOD directives and things related to crucial deals and RFPs,.......
Even if we try to behave like an Ostrich like sinking head into sand and pretend that I see nothng or I know nothing.....all this economy and development will go down the drain...... which I will bet

JAI HIND.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Feb 2010 05:44

what did India do when it came to know that CIA was training mujahidheen and is providing maps? Nothing
what we did when US helped pakistan to become a nuclear state through back door? Nothing
If people think that China and Pak gov alone became the cause for the establishment of nuclear state, then they are all living in fantasy.

there is no point of stopping Indian investigative agencies from meeting david headly,but US did.and India apparently failed to take a stance.
If those headly and rana were thoroughly investigated,we might have been able to stop this recent attack.

All excellent points. Good post.

May be it is the time to let the cat out of the bag and have a tough talk with US.

Absolutely, and we need'nt expend 500 plus soldiers to do that. We must find some other way.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Feb 2010 06:38

Harbans there is no need to bring previous PMs into current PM's watch. You might have done this without malice, but it does the thread no good and and is a great self goal.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 14 Feb 2010 07:32

^Thanks for injecting sanity, Ramana garu. The debate needs to happen but elsewhere perhaps. For the record, I too am opposed to somehow describing NDA as 'worse' than UPA and am like 80% in agreement with RD's well argued points.

Apologies for not being up to date on the Pune blasts news but could somebody kindly let on if
a) sharpnel of the nails/glass shards kind was found on the blast site (typical jihadist tactic seen in theaters as diverse as Iraq and Spain)
b) Any claims to responsibility have surfaced so far? IIRC, media started fanning rumors of Indian mujradeen a tad too quickly after the blasts.

TIA.

chandrabhan · Post by **chandrabhan** » 14 Feb 2010 08:16

Aha, the first great statement late in the night I get to hear, " Entire city was not targeted" from Shri Pawar.

chandrabhan · Post by **chandrabhan** » 14 Feb 2010 08:16

Aha, the first great statement late in the night I get to hear, " Entire city was not targeted" from Shri Pawar. What a great statement to make. Was he expecting a NoClear bum? Old kangress culture dies hard. it seems to me that rest of the country exists for serving the ambitions , Desires and pastime hobby horses.

The Big Question is , Now what? Will MMS and his 100 dwarfs have the capacity to accept the Puki hand? Then what happens to Aman ka tamasha? The farce perpetuated on the nation, from the coffers of nation , by the Dhimmis of this nation. I am sure the intensity will increase - More print ads, more TVC.

What happens to PC's statement that we will retaliate? Sometimes, I wonder if the Indian and Pakstani elite are hand in glove with each other. They bail out each other in times of adversities. it would go something like ," You are under pressure from Jeahadis, ok 2 blasts only allowed in a new city but I want my sons company to be spared". "Pucca Paaji, I will help you whenever you are under pressure, hain ji"

These politicos and bureaucrats are joined at the hip and while India burns they would want their Chai biscoot along with some long and punctuated sentences in the golf clubs and seminars . back channel diplomacy

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 14 Feb 2010 08:32

If someone can find the names, identities of the victims, please post here. It is important to know them so that we continue to never forgive, never forget. Thanks.

chandrabhan · Post by **chandrabhan** » 14 Feb 2010 08:33

jaladipc wrote:To all posters who posted so far on this thread including me,

Things like this happened in the past and will happen in future ,unless India keeps a tab on US instead of pak.
It wont be an intellectual cause for India to deal with pakitan,since pakistan is a failed state which is getting its back door support from US to train its home grown terrorists aka freedom fighters.

May be it is the time to let the cat out of the bag and have a tough talk with US. Its obsession with CAR energy reserves and Iran shouldnt hurt Indians..... Finally,I am not sure whether I made my points clear or not,but India definitely need to have a dialogue with US instead of pakistan.

JAI HIND.

Some moons ago, When Shri Obama had completed half a year, I put up a similar logic. US was and is responsible for terrorism perpetuated on India. We need to talk with the ' ineffectual, loudmouth J**k' I was warned as some of my fellow Brfites got angry because they had voted for him. I felt so angry at the way Shri MMS , sheepishly , Like a star struck lover asked for the book to be signed by 'The saviour'.Obama and MMS are god's gift to each other, Jaw jaw.

I whole heartedly agree with jaladipc ji. Why is MMS making one more trip to US? So many in 1 year? Is he carrying a big stick to spank the State department officials whenever they talk kashmir/ bear with terror?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 14 Feb 2010 08:43

CNN-IBN Breaking news:

Home Minister: No intelligence failure

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 14 Feb 2010 08:47

abhishek_sharma wrote:CNN-IBN Breaking news:

Home Minister: No intelligence failure

operation success, patient dead

chandrabhan · Post by **chandrabhan** » 14 Feb 2010 08:49

abhishek_sharma wrote:CNN-IBN Breaking news:

Home Minister: No intelligence failure

Ashok Khan was busy protecting his Boss's best friend's movie. That is more important than the lives of SDRE Injuns. Entire maharashtra Police force was busy. I am wondering why none of the Great Burqa dutts and Sardesais have come out and blaming the blasts on SHiv sena. They were protesting against the national icon.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 14 Feb 2010 08:52

abhishek_sharma wrote:CNN-IBN Breaking news:

Home Minister: No intelligence failure

Home Minister: It is not possible to provide 24/7 security to every shop and restaurant.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 14 Feb 2010 09:01

vera_k wrote:Not right to say entire Pune was targeted:Sharad Pawar

This Dawood ka Aulad cannot understand that entire India was targetted.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Feb 2010 09:10

Pranav wrote:
vera_k wrote:Not right to say entire Pune was targeted:Sharad Pawar
This Dawood ka Aulad cannot understand that entire India was targetted.

Well if Dawood threatens Pawar is he threatening entire India? Same difference. One bakery in one city attacked. How can the nation be under attack? Only 9 people dead. India still has (1,100,000,000-9)= 1,099,999,991 people left no? Make that 1,099,999,992 - one guy was a foreigner.

And 5000 kids were born last night anyway. More than 9 in Pune alone. India is not under attack. Only a bakery was under attack. That too more than 10% of the dead are some foreigners. Not locals.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 14 Feb 2010 09:11

Only the one who loses a finger misses his finger, for others it is just a person with one less finger. If god forbid, it is a piece of someone's heart it just leaves a hole in the heart. Just sorry for these senseless murders.

Unforunately, this is the next of the periodic offerings to bakasura by the villagers, awaiting the arrival of pandavas ...

Some GoI babu thinks that the planes for IAF are too expensive, and its Chief only shake its head, makes one wonder will be the right price for such institutionlised neglect.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 14 Feb 2010 09:22

shiv wrote:One bakery in one city attacked. How can the nation be under attack? Only 9 people dead. India still has (1,100,000,000-9)= 1,099,999,991 people left no? Make that 1,099,999,992 - one guy was a foreigner.

And 5000 kids were born last night anyway. More than 9 in Pune alone. India is not under attack. Only a bakery was under attack. That too more than 10% of the dead are some foreigners. Not locals.

This is a joke, right?

By that logic - unless a bum goes off in your drawing room, the whole nation is not attacked.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 14 Feb 2010 09:30

Pranav wrote:
shiv wrote:One bakery in one city attacked. How can the nation be under attack? Only 9 people dead. India still has (1,100,000,000-9)= 1,099,999,991 people left no? Make that 1,099,999,992 - one guy was a foreigner.

And 5000 kids were born last night anyway. More than 9 in Pune alone. India is not under attack. Only a bakery was under attack. That too more than 10% of the dead are some foreigners. Not locals.
This is a joke, right?

By that logic - unless a bum goes off in your drawing room, the whole nation is not attacked.

truth in its barest form - as seen by elite.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 14 Feb 2010 09:30

I am not aware if the policemen to combat the Shiv Sena threat were also requisitioned from other towns of Maharastra. If it is so, then obviously there would be less of police surveillance and bandobast in such towns including Pune.

The Police reserves were requisitioned.

I presume since the attention was focussed on Bombay, it could be that some sleeper terrorist was activated and ordered to use the opportunity.

Just a conjecture.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 14 Feb 2010 09:40

Wow.

So if it is so amply clear that targeting mango people in Yindia will elicit zero consequential response from Dilli, wonder why TSP ain't setting off bums every other hour in different soft targets all over this giant bullseye of a country?

How much planning, training or such is required to plant bums in schools, buses and railway tracks on a daily basis?

IMHO, the fact that TSP hasn't chosen to go that route indicates that it is not entirely true that GoI can afford to and does ignore aam aadmi causalities top TSP terror.

Anyway, since GoI can't make overt war anyhow, why not make covert war, eh?

Hasn't escaped notice that all that soosai bumming tamasha and attacks on paki security agencies stopped abruptly a few weeks ago when probably the PMO decided to go for 'talks at any cost', eject MKN and inject S-e-S architect SSM etc.

Dunno if this attack changes anything. Hope the covert war against TSPA interests is renewed. Jai Ho.

chandrabhan · Post by **chandrabhan** » 14 Feb 2010 10:16

Hari Seldon wrote:Wow.

So if it is so amply clear that targeting mango people in Yindia will elicit zero consequential response from Dilli, wonder why TSP ain't setting off bums every other hour in different soft targets all over this giant bullseye of a country?

How much planning, training or such is required to plant bums in schools, buses and railway tracks on a daily basis?

IMHO, the fact that TSP hasn't chosen to go that route indicates that it is not entirely true that GoI can afford to and does ignore aam aadmi causalities top TSP terror.

Anyway, since GoI can't make overt war anyhow, why not make covert war, eh?

Hasn't escaped notice that all that soosai bumming tamasha and attacks on paki security agencies stopped abruptly a few weeks ago when probably the PMO decided to go for 'talks at any cost', eject MKN and inject S-e-S architect SSM etc.

Dunno if this attack changes anything. Hope the covert war against TSPA interests is renewed. Jai Ho.

Hariji,
We live in a democracy only. The acceptable attrition model too has it's fallout.However, Elections are still far away. 'Aman ka tamasha' and all this hogwash going on is for the common SDRE injun, gullible and preparing him to take some hits in the grand bargain of peace. Peace at the cost of mango injun.

Covert war, I am all for it. Why not do targeted killings? What stops from some servant serving tea in morning to that PIG Hafiz Syed and be seen next day in Amritsar. Why not Mianji? GOI will not do that because I have feeling that lot of elite interests are shared.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 14 Feb 2010 10:17

Hari Seldon wrote: Hasn't escaped notice that all that soosai bumming tamasha and attacks on paki security agencies stopped abruptly a few weeks ago when probably the PMO decided to go for 'talks at any cost', eject MKN and inject S-e-S architect SSM etc.

To me the reason seemed to be that Pakistan told the Americans that further operations in Waziristan would wait till spring or later.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 14 Feb 2010 10:19

Hari Sar,

TSP is responsible enough to set off bombs during non election years to get the maximum mileage for their cause in India. As we do have Congress govt. ruling now., only mid non-election years are good. They worked hard to get rid of the nationalist government at the center and thus now they need to slowly put the fear into rest of the public., in other words ever couple of months.

I am very sorry to say that India and we indians have been defeated again by the islamists.

negi · Post by **negi** » 14 Feb 2010 10:27

JUD chief in recent meet in PoK had stated something on the lines of taking Jihad outside J&K for maximum effect and global visibility , Imho since embassies and other key furrin instis are protected , 'German Bakery' and similar places frequented by tourists are easy pickings , more importantly a news of foreigner getting killed is splashed across the front page in des as well as the respective country when compared to blasts in Bangalore or Dilli which are considered given by IDM.

The idea is to damage India Inc. and somehow force international opinion against India on J&K by proving India is unsafe as long as J&K remains unresolved as per TSP's satisfaction .