Should HH The Dalai Lama be elected India's next President?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 15 Sep 2010 20:46

Sanku wrote:Shouldn't this thread post be merged with Chinese threat thread? Its the pretty same discussion now?

Sanku ji,
This is a very specific 'attack' vector in managing the Chinese threat. Perhaps something similar to how Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion Thread is turning out to be, which is also a very specific 'attack' vector on both PRC and TSP.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 15 Sep 2010 20:50

SwamyG wrote:After all, we need to know if he will accept this offer, no? Or am I late, did some of you already do this?

He will do what is right for his people.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 15 Sep 2010 22:19

TonyMontana wrote:
VikramS wrote: I do not know what you mean by one people, but Tibet has ALWAYS been and continues to remain under the Indic cultural sphere. It is just a matter of time before that identity reasserts itself....
Do you know how Chinese you sound? It boggles the mind that you are so indignant about China projecting her power, and here you are, fantasising about a Indic empire.

I guess it's like that Simpson's episode, cows will eat you if given the chance...

Touched a nerve?

How does cultural sphere translate into an Indic empire?

China projects power by destroying other cultures. Hence the outrage. India does nothing to protect her cultural sphere of influence, hence the outrage.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 15 Sep 2010 22:21

RajeshA wrote:
Venkarl wrote:what we can do in our capacity to make dragon cough some smoke is to invite HH DL as an honorary guest to our upcoming Republic Republic Day. This is achievable AFAIK.
What will this achieve in real terms?

Venkarl wrote:jingoistic thoughts apart....
What is the meaning of Jingo?
- Somebody who thinks that a Colgate smile is not enough to keep back Chinese aggression.

Rajesh garu..RamaY garu has communicated in a way better than I could possibly attempt about explaining the achievements in real terms.

Expressing my opinion which follows a different course doesn't mean that it confronts your idea of making HHDL as Indian President. I am just presenting a possibility which seems practically achievable to me. Making HHDL as our president is good but is it doable by GoI? starting from HHDL's citizenship...there are a range of issues that needs to be addressed before he is considered as a presidential candidate. Keeping these views in mind, what GoI can immediately do is , apart from having him as a honorary guest to IRD, it can award him with say Gandhi Peace Award or Jawaharlal Nehru Award or any other GoI award..these options are practically doable for which we don't have to answer anyone's(china) questions/protests. Humble thoughts onlee sir.

btw..I am still in the process of understanding the meaning of jingo.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 15 Sep 2010 22:47

RajeshA wrote:
SwamyG wrote:After all, we need to know if he will accept this offer, no? Or am I late, did some of you already do this?
He will do what is right for his people.

I have lost trust in him. I am little sad to see such nice folks in BRF go for this crazy ride. He does not even desire "independence". So what is his plan "full autonomy" in 50 years and "full independence" in 250 years?

BTW, what has he done so far that you place such immense faith on him?

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 16 Sep 2010 00:11

^^^^
RajeshA,

For all the above HHDL need not be the president of India.
This is a not a bright idea. We should not involve him in politics of India for now. Let him be the spiritual guide of Tibetans. It can divide Tibetans and Indians when we want unity.

WRT to the instrument of accession who will sign the treaty-
1) HHDL- he wants autonomy or independence. Not merger. Even if he agrees what then--- because of 2)
2) Tibetans should agree to this proposal-- ie both from in India ,Tibet(under chinese control) and Tibetans all over the world. They will likely not agree. We don't want a war among Tibetans in India. India will have one more problem along with others. China will gladly meddle in Indian affairs instigating some tibetans against this. Some tibetans want full independence and some agree with HHDL. No one wants Indian interference other than helping them in freedom. They will be friendly to us no doubt but asking for merger-

we want to cause takleef to chinese and not to India.

Overall this is not another bright idea. The time has not come now. This is another self goal.
OTOH Tibet can ask for Indian help for help to liberate Tibet which is more doable in future than the joining with India. This is possible because India is running around with its rear on fire. It is fully awake and seeing the extent of damage around its backyard. when china is weaker then Indian help will be given.
Remember India has a civilian govt and china has military to take decisions on defense.
Again it requires a skilled diplomacy with military preparedness. It has to box china in its geographical area and later put a lid on it firmly. otherwise it is curtains to India the way things will look.
Nothing short of it.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 16 Sep 2010 01:22

Marten wrote:He has let the world know the dragon is untrustworthy and will cause more suffering to everyone else just to keep its H&D intact.

Looking at the international relations and policies, it is unlikely that countries trust each other anyway.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 16 Sep 2010 01:27

RamaY wrote:I voted NO.

Instead India should invite HH Dalai Lama as the chief guest on Jan 26 from Tibet.

RamaY wrote:
Venkarl wrote:jingoistic thoughts apart....what we can do in our capacity to make dragon cough some smoke is to invite HH DL as an honorary guest to our upcoming Republic Republic Day. This is achievable AFAIK.
This is my preference too (read my post in previous page).

RajeshA ji, this will do multiple things -

1. It shows that India recognizes Tibet as a separate (will enrage PRC) and independent soverign state (Beijing will have a b*chfit).
2. It shows that HH DL as the leader of that soverign Tibet
3. It shows that India, united with all its might, stands by HH DL and Tibet

Shiv-ji is right on this point (I still disagree with him on POK - which was claimed by Parliament of India as undeniable part of India). We never claimed Tibet as part of our nation. It is a different thing if/when Tibet and its people decide to join Indian Union.

RamaY ji,
thanks for the feedback.

There are some aspects, I would like to touch on.
1) The proposal to make HH DL is a process with several phases. One of the earlier phases would involve bringing him into the limelight by the GoI, and then asking him to be the Chief Guest at the Republic Day parade would be a very good idea.

2) Recognition of Independence in the beginning by the GoI is a must. At the moment India considers Tibet to be part of China. How can a part of some country simply decide to join another country?! So recognition of Independence of Tibet is a precondition to any further plans. At that point HH DL would be recognized by as the sovereign of an independent nation.

3) If we let go at Recognition of Independence, we have to see what we have achieved. Our achievement has been that we have made some news, PRC is furious, there is some unpleasant Chinese reaction to us, and our relations nose-dive. More than that it doesn't change much.

The other countries would continue to do normal business with China, and wouldn't really hop on this anti-Chinese vendetta by India. They will just watch it from the sidelines. If India tries to go on a diplomatic offensive, we will be making a big fool of ourselves. We remember how Taiwan went around the world asking for recognition until almost every country recognized PRC as the true China. So going around the world beating Tibet's drum would not bring anything. Every country would tell us, that the Chinese are sitting on Tibet, and it is not really bothering anybody, at least not enough to pick a fight with PRC. It would become a human-rights tamasha, nothing more than it is now.

On the ground in Tibet nothing would have changed, and China would feel emboldened, and then the pressure would increase on India on the boundary. In fact before GoI exchanged letters of recognizing Tibet as part of China and Sikkim as part of India, India did not consider Tibet as part of China. So we have been there before.

So any Recognition of Independence of Tibet should not be followed by any diplomatic offensive in pushing for the same by the other countries. It should be closely followed by the Tibet Parliament in Exile passing the Accession to India Bill, and signed by HH DL.

What we need is a game changer. If Tibetan Parliament in Exile accedes Tibet to India, it becomes a dispute between India and China. We become a party to the dispute. That is serious.

How would the other countries react to it? They would continue to get their visas for Tibet from PRC embassies. Sure. But on their atlas maps, they will start showing Tibet in a slightly different color as the rest of China. That is when the fun begins. Every time some far off country, say Latvia or Montenegro brings out an atlas with a disputed Tibet, we win and PRC goes angry.

If we name Tawang as Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) as well, then we will be having a real territorial dispute. Everywhere including Wikipedia, people would try to explain that a part of Tibet is in China and the other part is in India. That dilutes even more the Chinese assertion, that it controls Tibet and as such it is a part of China.

And then every once in a while we start talking about the human rights violations in Tibet, and bring the world's spotlight on Tibet.

That is how we build up psychological pressure on China little by little, without even firing a shot.

China gives us a disputed boundary. India gives them a disputed region.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 16 Sep 2010 02:14

Interesting idea.

I think the most useful suggestion to come out of this thread is the one by Bade that an Arunachali be made President of India, or at any rate, definitely someone from the Northeast. It's high time these folks got their turn anyway, and that appreciation is shown to the steadfast leaders of these states who have dedicated their careers to working within the Indian political mainstream. Karen Rijiju of ArP would be ideal, but he is BhaJaPa so that may not happen. P.A. Sangma, possibly?

In addition to honouring the political career of a deserving candidate from this region, China would also be nicely affronted... they want to claim all of NE Indian culture as a "Han" subculture (just as they are rapidly making bogus claims and fraudulently misrepresenting history to subsume the Manchu, Mongol, Thai, Hmong, Tibetan, Uighur, and Ko-Guryo (traditional Korean) cultures within the spurious "Han" construct.) To such an extent, in fact, that they demanded that a cultural delegation from India not include any participants from the NE. I would like to see them deny the President of India a visa, or protest when other countries invite him for a visit.

But the important thing would be recognizing a people who may sometimes feel alienated from the Indian mainstream, by elevating one of their leaders to the nation's highest office.

I abstain from voting in the poll. I am not against HH Dalai Lama becoming President of India in principle, but it is 100% certain that he would not accept if offered the post, which would be embarrassing. As an aside, if the Dalai Lama were ever going to serve the GOI as a thorn in China's side, it would have happened a long time ago. He isn't... he is too dedicated to the principles of his spirituality to do anything like that. No chance that this benevolent ho-ho-ho uncle will have anything other than soft-power/propaganda value to offer against China strategically.

What amazes me is that GOI has not already begun grooming the Dalai Lama's political successors, Tibetans of the post-occupation generation who will readily take a much, much harder line against PRC's illegal occupation of their homeland, and do whatever is necessary to achieve independence. That is the sort of leader the Tibetans need, in order to counter whatever monkey-see-monkey-do fraud will be put up by Beijing as an alleged successor to the Dalai Lama's legacy in Lhasa.

Finally... some people here (and in other China-related threads) have been warning that India "should not become to China what Pakistan is to India." This is a nonsensical position. India is not Pakistan in any other way, and it will not be a condom for anyone else... it will be very much its own organ. What India should become to China is what China was to the USSR during the Cold War... no question who came out ahead there.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 16 Sep 2010 02:52

vina wrote: Also, when the Tibetan monks were beaten and brutalized by the PRC thugs recently before the olympics, many Chinese had warned of divine retribution. Well lets just put it this way, when there were quakes in PRC and Taiwan in quick succession right after that, the Chinese at large were rattled.

C'mon now. Don't think like that. What did India do to deserve the tsunami?

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 16 Sep 2010 02:53

krisna wrote:^^^^
RajeshA,

For all the above HHDL need not be the president of India.
This is a not a bright idea. We should not involve him in politics of India for now. Let him be the spiritual guide of Tibetans. It can divide Tibetans and Indians when we want unity.

WRT to the instrument of accession who will sign the treaty-
1) HHDL- he wants autonomy or independence. Not merger. Even if he agrees what then--- because of 2)
2) Tibetans should agree to this proposal-- ie both from in India ,Tibet(under chinese control) and Tibetans all over the world. They will likely not agree. We don't want a war among Tibetans in India. India will have one more problem along with others. China will gladly meddle in Indian affairs instigating some tibetans against this. Some tibetans want full independence and some agree with HHDL. No one wants Indian interference other than helping them in freedom. They will be friendly to us no doubt but asking for merger-
we want to cause takleef to chinese and not to India.

Overall this is not another bright idea. The time has not come now. This is another self goal.

Question to all BRFites who agree on making HHDL as president of India and sign the instrument of accession to Indian union
1) Is HHDL a citizen of India?
2) what is the status of Tibetan refugees wrt to Indian citizenship?
3) How many have got the citizenship?
4) what is the reason behind this?

The reasons might be helpful in delineating our dealings with Tibet and china.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 16 Sep 2010 02:59

I agree with making someone from NE as president, like from Arunachal would be super.
1) He is a bonafide citizen of India. Far far better idea than HHDL as prez of India.
2) The whole world will have to recognise it when the president from NE India visits any other country. So Arunachal pradesh gets de facto recognition. Interesting if china tries to ask countries not to do allow the president to their country.

3) With HHDL it will be highly contentious and opens a pandora's box. It may go to the supreme courts.

To become a superpower it must have unquestioned hegemony in its own backyard. Deny that then china is not a superpower.
India can easily deny that by helping Tibet become autonomous followed by independent nation. Tibet encompasses nearly a quarter of china. It is a buffer zone for India. China will be always looking backwards as India is the only large power capable of mounting a challenge to it.
As long as Tibet issue is unresolved and Tibetans are in India, China can kiss superpowerdom good bye. India should support Tibetans in their quest for independence. No nation will support it as china is growing powerful.
But we have to do it for our preservation.
We have to make hard choices.

Rudradev
Finally... some people here (and in other China-related threads) have been warning that India "should not become to China what Pakistan is to India." This is a nonsensical position. India is not Pakistan in any other way, and it will not be a condom for anyone else... it will be very much its own organ. What India should become to China is what China was to the USSR during the Cold War... no question who came out ahead there.

This is advocated by KS in his articles on china.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 16 Sep 2010 02:59

TonyMontana wrote:
vina wrote: Also, when the Tibetan monks were beaten and brutalized by the PRC thugs recently before the olympics, many Chinese had warned of divine retribution. Well lets just put it this way, when there were quakes in PRC and Taiwan in quick succession right after that, the Chinese at large were rattled.
C'mon now. Don't think like that. What did India do to deserve the tsunami?

India abandoned the Tibetian people and let the Han Chinese walk in to Tibet and plunder

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 16 Sep 2010 04:30

SwamyG wrote:Here is DL's website and contact info: http://www.dalailama.com/office/contact

Interested folks can invite him for a private audience, or email his office or schedule media interview and discuss this ___________ offer. After all, we need to know if he will accept this offer, no? Or am I late, did some of you already do this?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25665272/

The Dalai Lama, who turned 73 on July 6, said Sunday that he's looking forward to "complete retirement." He joked that he's now considered a "senior most respected adviser" to Tibet's government in exile.

He is probably more suited as the leader of the all the religions al-taqqiya practitioners', president for inter-faith cockamamie.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/25/opinion/25gyatso.html
by
Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama, is the author, most recently, of “Toward a True Kinship of Faiths: How the World’s Religions Can Come Together.”

WHEN I was a boy in Tibet, I felt that my own Buddhist religion must be the best — and that other faiths were somehow inferior.I see how naïve I was, and how dangerous the extremes of religious intolerance can be today.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 16 Sep 2010 04:36

krisna wrote: RajeshA,

For all the above HHDL need not be the president of India.
This is a not a bright idea. We should not involve him in politics of India for now. Let him be the spiritual guide of Tibetans.It can divide Tibetans and Indians when we want unity.

I concede electing HH DL as Indian President is not fundamental to the plan, but it is the crowning of it, and for amplifying the success. It would also be a means of gaining the acceptance of all Tibetans for the Tibetan merger with India.

krisna wrote:WRT to the instrument of accession who will sign the treaty-
1) HHDL- he wants autonomy or independence. Not merger.

HH DL did comment once, that India had a bigger right to Tibet than China.

krisna wrote:Even if he agrees what then--- because of 2)
2) Tibetans should agree to this proposal-- ie both from in India ,Tibet(under chinese control) and Tibetans all over the world. They will likely not agree. We don't want a war among Tibetans in India. India will have one more problem along with others. China will gladly meddle in Indian affairs instigating some tibetans against this. Some tibetans want full independence and some agree with HHDL. No one wants Indian interference other than helping them in freedom. They will be friendly to us no doubt but asking for merger-
we want to cause takleef to chinese and not to India.

Why should there be a war between the Tibetans on this issue?! They can decide democratically what they want. Every decision has many sides, and one would be chosen. We are simply giving them an option.

There are many Tibetans who want to take up arms against China, but Dalai Lama is actually staying their hand. So there are already multiple opinions within the Tibetans. If it has not led to wars between them till now, why should this new option be any different?! I don't see a need to go and meet trouble halfway.

Let's see what we have on the table for the Tibetans:

Tibet would move from Part of China into the Disputed Column
India, the only country bordering Tibet, that can do anything substantial for them, would be promising her full diplomatic, moral, etc. support instead of just acting with apathy. The probability for freedom from Chinese occupation climbs a few notches.
There will be a lot more international spotlight on Tibet and on occupation by China
Those Tibetans living in India would get full Indian citizenship as citizens of the Union of India and Tibet (short form Union of India) and the associated rights and privileges.
India would become a supporter of Tibetan culture, enabling it to bloom, in all forms possible
As Tibet becomes a disputed territory, each country would try to show that they are the better guardians of Tibetans. It becomes a PR competition between India and China. That means the Chinese would be giving the Tibetans living in Tibetan Autonomous Region of PRC far more freedoms and leeway. Considering how many funds Kashmiris get from the Center, Tibetans could hope for some better living conditions in China as well.
If there is a way for armed rebellion against Chinese Occupation, India is the only way. So when the time comes, India would be willing to give far more military support to Tibetans and be willing to commit own forces as well for the freedom of the Tibetans.
And last but not least, Paranthas every morning!

They can take it or leave it. It is their decision. If they leave it, then everything remains the same, more or less. If not, things change.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 16 Sep 2010 04:39

Mahendra wrote:
TonyMontana wrote:C'mon now. Don't think like that. What did India do to deserve the tsunami?
India abandoned the Tibetian people and let the Han Chinese walk in to Tibet and plunder

Very very bad taste but

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 16 Sep 2010 04:45

Mahendra wrote: India abandoned the Tibetian people and let the Han Chinese walk in to Tibet and plunder

So it's the Chinese's fault that a random natural event killed Indians.

krisna wrote:
India can easily deny that by helping Tibet become autonomous followed by independent nation.

Right after the economic and social collapse of China in the next 5-8 years, right?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 16 Sep 2010 04:48

krisna wrote:I agree with making someone from NE as president, like from Arunachal would be super.
1) He is a bonafide citizen of India. Far far better idea than HHDL as prez of India.
2) The whole world will have to recognise it when the president from NE India visits any other country. So Arunachal pradesh gets de facto recognition. Interesting if china tries to ask countries not to do allow the president to their country.
3) With HHDL it will be highly contentious and opens a pandora's box. It may go to the supreme courts.

By all means, make somebody from North East India's President.

But this is exactly the kind of thinking I would like the Indians to shed. We are again being defensive. We are ourselves declaring that North East, Arunachal Pradesh is some disputed territory and somehow its place in the Indian Union needs to be protected. We are already on our back foot, even before the Chinese have taken a step forward. There is nothing to dwell on in the case of Arunachal Pradesh. It is an Indian State and being a border state it should get sufficient funds for its development. No need to be defensive about something that is self-evident.

If there is a De-Jure Merger between India and Tibet, even the need to be defensive about our border would not arise.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 16 Sep 2010 04:50

TonyMontana wrote:
Mahendra wrote: India abandoned the Tibetian people and let the Han Chinese walk in to Tibet and plunder
So it's the Chinese's fault that a random natural event killed Indians. ===Yes

krisna wrote:
India can easily deny that by helping Tibet become autonomous followed by independent nation.
Right after the economic and social collapse of China in the next 5-8 years, right?===Yeah Right

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 16 Sep 2010 04:51

TonyMontana wrote:
krisna wrote:
India can easily deny that by helping Tibet become autonomous followed by independent nation.
Right after the economic and social collapse of China in the next 5-8 years, right?

TonyMontana ji,

If it really happens, they will arrest you!

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 16 Sep 2010 04:55

While Soniaji and Congress High Command debates accepting the Dalai Lama into the party, I have secured an authentic replica of the most important tool for the new President.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 16 Sep 2010 05:05

RajeshA wrote:
RamaY wrote: I voted NO.
Instead India should invite HH Dalai Lama as the chief guest on Jan 26 from Tibet.

RamaY wrote: this will do multiple things -

1. It shows that India recognizes Tibet as a separate (will enrage PRC) and independent soverign state (Beijing will have a b*chfit).
2. It shows that HH DL as the leader of that soverign Tibet
3. It shows that India, united with all its might, stands by HH DL and Tibet
So any Recognition of Independence of Tibet should not be followed by any diplomatic offensive in pushing for the same by the other countries. It should be closely followed by the Tibet Parliament in Exile passing the Accession to India Bill, and signed by HH DL.

What we need is a game changer. If Tibetan Parliament in Exile accedes Tibet to India, it becomes a dispute between India and China. We become a party to the dispute. That is serious.

China gives us a disputed boundary. India gives them a disputed region.

This could be a workable solution to bring peace to South-Asia as PRC "promissed to work with India".

Year 1
- move unspecified number of Agnis and Shouryas to the border areas as part of its nuclear deterrence. Recommits itself to NFU

- deploy multiple layers of mobile Akash, Brahmos and Pinaka batteries
- develop required infra to acheive air-deployed mountain divisions (This is a must given the terrian)

Year 2
Jan 25 - Recognize Tibet as Independent nation and Invite HH DL as chief guest.
Jan 26 - HH declares that Tibet accedes to India.
Jan 26 - President accepts the letter of accession and forwards a recommendation to Indian Parliament to make a statement to that affect.
Jan 27 - Indian Parliament passes a resolution that Tibet is part of India and demands PRC to vacate Tibet.

From that moment onward, Tibet is a disputed territory. Remind PRC that it cannot become a global player thru force and should remind of its commitment to a peaceful raise...

Added Later...

Even better if India elects an Arunachali as President of India in Year 1

Rudradev wrote: I think the most useful suggestion to come out of this thread is the one by Bade that an Arunachali be made President of India

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 16 Sep 2010 05:12

TonyMontana wrote: C'mon now. Don't think like that. What did India do to deserve the tsunami?

~1965 drought was for allowing creation of Pakistan
Latur earthquake was for allowing PRC to donate nukes to Pakistan
The Tsunami was for letting PRC do the Tiananmen Square

The story of the moral is that you will get bad karma for allowing Adharma to happen to others in your presense. Read Mahabharata for starters. A person like Bhishma was killed for letting Adharma happen to Draupadi.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 16 Sep 2010 05:14

vera_k wrote:While Soniaji and Congress High Command debates accepting the Dalai Lama into the party, I have secured an authentic replica of the most important tool for the new President.

Make sure it is Made In China

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 16 Sep 2010 05:20

RamaY ji,

Those are very good suggestions for a chronology.

RamaY wrote:Remind PRC that it cannot become a global player thru force and should remind of its commitment to a peaceful raise...

See, if de-jure Tibet becomes part of India, India would be able to kill the jernails in Beijing simply by our sanctimonious talk!

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 16 Sep 2010 06:06

RamaY wrote: ~1965 drought was for allowing creation of Pakistan
Latur earthquake was for allowing PRC to donate nukes to Pakistan
The Tsunami was for letting PRC do the Tiananmen Square

The story of the moral is that you will get bad karma for allowing Adharma to happen to others in your presense. Read Mahabharata for starters. A person like Bhishma was killed for letting Adharma happen to Draupadi.

I condemn this in the strongest term possible.

Karma is not science. It's a religious concept like Jihad in Islam. To justify the suffering of your own countrymen, using religionous concepts, because your leaders made bad decision is, in my opinion, worse than Islamist justifiying the killing of non-believers in the name of their God.

To say that innocent Indian should pay the price for bad leadership decision is cruel. Maybe you should read your own epics again. Collective punishment is not how Karma works.

naren · Post by **naren** » 16 Sep 2010 07:03

First lets start with best case scenario for India: Tibet is absorbed in the Indian union and becomes an Indian state. There is tremendous cost associated with it. Tibet cannot "pay for itself". With a total population of ethnic Tibetans around 6 million, its impossible to expect that the taxes generated will be sufficient to support the troops deployed there. Neither does Tibet have any worthy natural resources. If anything, the only motivation to hold Tibet would be safeguarding the water sources.

As far as China is concerned, Tibet is the gateway to Arabian sea and Bay of Bengal. Tibet is strategically very important for China. They are not going to give it up easily without putting their best fight. So to acquire Tibet, tremendous effort is needed. Its not feasible for us. Its much more feasible to take the entire Tibetan population and resettle them in India.

I'm not saying that we have to suck up to China. We need to be realistic in our expectation. We can do all chai biskoot we want. We can start showing the whole of Tibet as part of India, may be negotiate with HHDL and in His authority, accede Tibet to Indian union etc. But the reality is we have nothing to gain by grabbing Tibet.

As far as dealing with China is concerned, we can do it on multiple fronts. The main emotional impact area is Taiwan. One way to effectively play that card is to convey the point that if China continues to pose a threat to India, then Taiwan will be "lost" forever. CCP survives by peddling the "one China motherland" BS to the Cheeni mango abdul often. Strike there and its a threat to the party's very legitimacy. We can gradually turn up the heat in Taiwan and see their response - giving away Tejas, Brahmos, BMD etc. and as a last resort, nooks.

In short, we dont have to be paranoid in choosing HHDL for prez. It comes with its own set of associated problems as I mentioned previously. We need to threaten the core interests of China to back them off.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 16 Sep 2010 07:17

naren wrote: As far as dealing with China is concerned, we can do it on multiple fronts. The main emotional impact area is Taiwan. One way to effectively play that card is to convey the point that if China continues to pose a threat to India, then Taiwan will be "lost" forever. CCP survives by peddling the "one China motherland" BS to the Cheeni mango abdul often. Strike there and its a threat to the party's very legitimacy. We can gradually turn up the heat in Taiwan and see their response - giving away Tejas, Brahmos, BMD etc. and as a last resort, nooks.

That's a pretty big leap in logic there. China is working hard on a peacful reunification. What if that happens? The USA is protecting Taiwan right now. How does anything change if India takes over instead of America?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 16 Sep 2010 07:23

TonyMontana wrote:
RamaY wrote: ~1965 drought was for allowing creation of Pakistan
Latur earthquake was for allowing PRC to donate nukes to Pakistan
The Tsunami was for letting PRC do the Tiananmen Square

The story of the moral is that you will get bad karma for allowing Adharma to happen to others in your presense. Read Mahabharata for starters. A person like Bhishma was killed for letting Adharma happen to Draupadi.
I condemn this in the strongest term possible.

Karma is not science. It's a religious concept like Jihad in Islam. To justify the suffering of your own countrymen, using religionous concepts, because your leaders made bad decision is, in my opinion, worse than Islamist justifiying the killing of non-believers in the name of their God.

To say that innocent Indian should pay the price for bad leadership decision is cruel. Maybe you should read your own epics again. Collective punishment is not how Karma works.

You are getting confused TM. In fist para you say karma is not real and in second para you say that karma doesn't give collective punishment. Looks like you too are a believer, perhaps due to your indic roots. Accede to India.

this is OT here so let's take our jugalbandi elsewhere.

naren · Post by **naren** » 16 Sep 2010 07:27

TonyMontana wrote:
naren wrote: As far as dealing with China is concerned, we can do it on multiple fronts. The main emotional impact area is Taiwan. One way to effectively play that card is to convey the point that if China continues to pose a threat to India, then Taiwan will be "lost" forever. CCP survives by peddling the "one China motherland" BS to the Cheeni mango abdul often. Strike there and its a threat to the party's very legitimacy. We can gradually turn up the heat in Taiwan and see their response - giving away Tejas, Brahmos, BMD etc. and as a last resort, nooks.
That's a pretty big leap in logic there. China is working hard on a peacful reunification. What if that happens? The USA is protecting Taiwan right now. How does anything change if India takes over instead of America?

What if India doesn't let that happen ? Do you think India lacks the resources to pull that off ? I find it hard to believe that Taiwanese would happily suck upto China in the name of motherland unification. (Good e.g is the disgruntlement of HKers)

As for US being the protector: US will never ever supply nooks/game changing tech to Taiwan. India can do that.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 16 Sep 2010 07:45

RamaY wrote: Accede to India.

I agree with this.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 16 Sep 2010 08:19

RamaY wrote: You are getting confused TM. In fist para you say karma is not real and in second para you say that karma doesn't give collective punishment. Looks like you too are a believer, perhaps due to your indic roots. Accede to India.

this is OT here so let's take our jugalbandi elsewhere.

Allow me to clarify. First I said Karma is not real. Then what I meant was, even if it is real, by your epics, it doesn't give collective punishment.

But I agree, we digress. Last OT post from me.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 16 Sep 2010 08:39

naren wrote: What if India doesn't let that happen ? Do you think India lacks the resources to pull that off?

No, India lacks the political will to pull that off.

naren wrote: I find it hard to believe that Taiwanese would happily suck upto China in the name of motherland unification. (Good e.g is the disgruntlement of HKers)

No, but they will, and have, for money (read trade).

naren wrote: As for US being the protector: US will never ever supply nooks/game changing tech to Taiwan. India can do that.

Would Taiwan accept nuclearisation? Have they ever shown interests in getting nukes?

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 16 Sep 2010 08:52

TonyMontana wrote: That's a pretty big leap in logic there. China is working hard on a peacful reunification. What if that happens?

I don't know, what if it doesn't happen?

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 16 Sep 2010 09:05

naren wrote:First lets start with best case scenario for India: Tibet is absorbed in the Indian union and becomes an Indian state. There is tremendous cost associated with it. Tibet cannot "pay for itself". With a total population of ethnic Tibetans around 6 million, its impossible to expect that the taxes generated will be sufficient to support the troops deployed there. Neither does Tibet have any worthy natural resources. If anything, the only motivation to hold Tibet would be safeguarding the water sources.

What is your estimate of the cost that India (and the Indian sub-continent) will have to bear if China constructs mega-dams and diverts all the water for its own purposes? Do you realize that China could actually "engineer" famines and droughts in the sub-continent with Tibet in their grasp. What would be the cost to India then?

I hope you know that water is the greatest "worthy natural resource", necessary for all value-adding industry and prosperity, even more than oil, iron ore or coal.

BTW, even the PLA's cost estimate would show that their Tibet (and Xinjiang) occupation is not paying for itself. But still, they have crossed these barriers and entered Nepal and G-B, where the cost-benefit gets even more horrendously distorted.

As far as China is concerned, Tibet is the gateway to Arabian sea and Bay of Bengal. Tibet is strategically very important for China. But the reality is we have nothing to gain by grabbing Tibet.

Actually, Xinjiang holds infinitely more strategic value than Tibet for China. China is in Tibet for exactly the same reason/motivation that you seem to so casually disregard from your POV, WATER!

naren · Post by **naren** » 16 Sep 2010 09:24

Klaus ji,

If you read right after the bolded part, I did mention water.

I disagree that PRC's sole motivation for Tibet is water - been 6 decades and they are yet to tap into that.

And if they do engineer famines, nuke the shiite of basterds.

All I'm saying is that dont consider nuke armageddon as the first and only option.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 16 Sep 2010 09:46

naren wrote:Klaus ji,
And if they do engineer famines, nuke the shiite of basterds.

They won't. Since all lines to their prosperity (trade route) pass very close to India. They put a unilateral water embargo, we put a unilateral trade embargo.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 16 Sep 2010 10:22

Marten wrote: You wouldn't be able to sit or sleep for several years if that happened, eh? Wouldn't that be a real thorn up yer a$$.

Good attempt at flame baiting. Coming on a bit strong tho. 2/10

Marten wrote: To indulge you: There will be no reunification without a Taiwanese party coming into power on the mainland. In which case, commies and commie drones such as yourself will bear great takleef.

Eh what? Okay. Sure.

Marten wrote: I fully support proliferation of the kind China practised with NoKo, Pak -- give Vietnam and Taiwan access to "key technologies" and watch the dragon hop around.

You can do that when India get around to proliferation. Don't hold your breath tho.

Marten wrote: PS: I'd hate for the Three Gorges to be nuked by non-state actors from an unknown group that hijacked nuckes from Pacquistan. Bad karma will cause several generations of Indians a lot of pain, but the good karma from that action will be that it will wipe out a reasonable amount of commie drones and help China get back to its "righteous path" (ain't that your line, bud?).

If you think killing innocent farmers down stream is good Karma you might want to re-read your epics. Also, I'm pretty sure thinking about it and gloating about it is bad karma. So you might want to help someone today.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 16 Sep 2010 10:36

Marten wrote: Sure, for a state that thinks nothing of killing Tibetans, rolling over thousands of students with tanks, and thinks nothing of Nuke Proliferation via poodles such as Noko or Pak, bad karma is definitely not a concern. Am sure your drone salary covers it.

As we say, Mirchi lagi!

Okay, okay. China is bad, m'kay? Now India can be as evil as she wants.
Just out of Interest, what does Mirchi lagi mean?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 16 Sep 2010 10:46

TonyMontana and Marten ji,

Please look for other nooks and corners of BRF and Beyond to continue with your discussion. Thanx.

Should His Highness The Dalai Lama be elected India's next President?