Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UNSC?

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Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto-carrying permanent seat in UNSC soon?

Yes
62
49%
No
65
51%
 
Total votes: 127

RajeshA
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by RajeshA »

Klaus wrote:IMHO, to change the system, first you need to be in the system. Or to win a match, you need to be in the match.

The problem that desh has in the UN is the complex about playing by the rules, we can only alter the status-quo if we start sabotaging all attempts made against our national interest, it is very much a tactical move-by-move game with respect to the UNSC. In every such move, India will find some allies and some opposition (latter always > former) but we have to remember that these allies are only tactical, not strategic.
There are two paths.

Let's say UN is a hierarchy. In this hierarchy where the upper tier doesn't want to either let go of power nor wants to share it if not forced to, the chances of promotion for India or anybody else are little. If the people up there want to let somebody in, they will not take so many years to do it. If they do not want it, then it is stupid to expect they will do it later on. Where is the pressure for them to do it. Other than that they have got their minions in the lower tiers, the Coffee Club, who would grab your legs and not let you move up, all in the name of "no consensus on reform"!

So even if there is progress here
  1. India would get only some very watered down power - only permanent membership, but no veto
  2. India would have to wait for many many years before she can exercise a veto.
  3. India would get only half a veto.
In any case, India would not be accepted as an equal to P5 any time soon. And all that is provided there is reform.

The other path is that of the outsider.

When India was not part of N-5, it took some time, and some realignment in power equations in the world, but the international community felt that it was important for India to be part of the system and not be outside so the rules were changed. New rules were made to accommodate India. Similar rules were not made for Pakistan or North Korea. Why not? Because India is special - due it its strength, it billion plus population, its democracy and the legitimacy that its gives, and its moral standing. It was considered best to have India in the tent pissing out than have India outside pissing in.

We have to know what India gives to the UN. Beside all the UN peacekeeping forces and our contributions to building of rules for the world structures, and looking after the rights of the developing countries, what we give is legitimacy of 1/6 of the world's population through a democratically elected government. That is more legitimacy than a single country can give to the world body.

What is keeping all those countries - from Papua New Guinea to Guinea to Suriname in UN. It is the feeling that it represents the world. If India leaves and starts condemning the abuse of power of the P5, all that charade, the whole facade would come crumbling down. When the P5 pass resolutions and exercise their vetoes, they are using India's legitimization of their actions.

If a couple more countries like Brazil, Iran leave UN, UN is dead, meaning UNSC is buried, meaning P5 are stripped naked of their powers.

We must ask ourselves, would the P5 really want that?

Countries like UK and France would be forgotten as powers within a couple of years should this happen. No wonder they are very much in favor of this reform. Considering how much influence the West and China has divided up amongst themselves in the world, in view of a shrunk economy, organizational collapse and its oligarchical rebirth, a seat in the UNSC gives Russia much needed bargaining power. Much of the post WW-II world structures were built by the West, USA in particular. Would the USA want to lose much of its power, when it is a superpower that derives much of its superpower status from the fact, that these world structures are rigged in its favor, and that too in times of a relative loss of power to China which has no moral inhibitions in its dealings with other countries? Would PRC like to lose its standing as a country in the top tier of the hierarchy ruling the world? Would not PRC lose the bargaining power of its veto, which it sells at a high price to USA gaining many concessions?

So should there be a choice between having India as part of the PX or having the UNO break up, the P5 would choose the former.

But India does not put this choice in front of the P5. India gives the P5 legitimacy free of cost.

If the UN is forced to accommodate an 'outsider' like India, chances are India would be accommodated in the PX. As an insider India would be forced to eat the crumbs.
Klaus wrote:Another thing which I noticed is that India leaving UN would be a tactical move, it is upto us to decide whether and how it would enable us to achieve a strategic goal. This needs to be gamed, I believe it might have been done already but a second attempt could never hurt.

Another issue is, how do we decide the timing of such a tactical move. How do we decide that the line has been crossed and we need to follow the exit route? As you very well know, timing is crucial in tactical decision making.

I am talking about timing as the current status-quo in UN has been around for a long time, what more must additionally happen for India to actually resign?
All India needs to do is after some inconclusive meeting of the UN to decide the question of reform, stand on a podium with Brazil and together announce, that India and Brazil are leaving the UN, because we think it is broken and does not adequately represent the current situation in the world.

Of course, USA would be told much before that, what would happen if it fails to get the world body to reform.

We should let them know, "No more feet dragging. No more Coffee Club proxies".
RajeshA
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by RajeshA »

Published Sep 28, 2010
By Aprille Muscara
U.N. Security Council, the Land Where Time Stands Still: IPS News
UNITED NATIONS, Sep 28, 2010 (IPS) - At the U.N.'s annual weeklong cacophony of back-to-back speeches held to open its new General Assembly session, certain things can be counted on: the flouting of time limits, offensive rants (and subsequent walkouts by insulted parties) and, for longer than the last third of the world body's existence, the mention of Security Council reform.

"The process of [Security Council] reform could almost be called a 'never ending story'," said Ivan Gasparovic, Slovakia's president.
"It is no longer acceptable… that permanent membership of the Security Council – the main organ charged with the maintenance of international peace and security – remains subject to obsolete rules of an era that is long gone," said Ahmed Abdoul Gheit, the foreign minister of Egypt. "It is similarly unacceptable that the work of this council or its mechanisms remain characterised by the lack of transparency or balance."
Fidel Guevara
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by Fidel Guevara »

If India were to push for a UNSC seat, what the Atlanticists would do is to expand the P5 to something like P20 - basically take all the G20 or G-whatever nations and make everybody a "P". Voila, India wanted sambar but ends up with rasam.

And then they would expand NATO to include Japan, Brazil and Russia as "global security partners". Maybe even China as a MUNNA. And move all P5-type key decision making to the new "Greater NATO".

Never doubt the Chankianess of the Foggy Bottom/Whitehall cold warriors, and their ongoing desire to pull down India.
RajeshA
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by RajeshA »

Fidel Guevara wrote:If India were to push for a UNSC seat, what the Atlanticists would do is to expand the P5 to something like P20 - basically take all the G20 or G-whatever nations and make everybody a "P".

And then they would expand NATO to include Japan, Brazil and Russia as "global security partners". Maybe even China as a MUNNA.

Never doubt the Chankianess of the Foggy Bottom/Whitehall cold warriors, and their ongoing desire to pull down India.
So as I understand it, you are saying Japan, Brazil, Russia and China would be made 'global security partners' and MuNNAs, all for the purpose of keeping India down, which even without all this already defers to USA on important aspects of our foreign policy!

They must be hating us a lot!
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by chaanakya »

RajeshA wrote:Published Sep 28, 2010
By Aprille Muscara
U.N. Security Council, the Land Where Time Stands Still: IPS News
UNITED NATIONS, Sep 28, 2010 (IPS) - At the U.N.'s annual weeklong cacophony of back-to-back speeches held to open its new General Assembly session, certain things can be counted on: the flouting of time limits, offensive rants (and subsequent walkouts by insulted parties) and, for longer than the last third of the world body's existence, the mention of Security Council reform.

"The process of [Security Council] reform could almost be called a 'never ending story'," said Ivan Gasparovic, Slovakia's president.
"It is no longer acceptable… that permanent membership of the Security Council – the main organ charged with the maintenance of international peace and security – remains subject to obsolete rules of an era that is long gone," said Ahmed Abdoul Gheit, the foreign minister of Egypt. "It is similarly unacceptable that the work of this council or its mechanisms remain characterised by the lack of transparency or balance."
These are quite uncomfortable voices for P-5 of UNSC. If India joins this , idea would get tremendous boost. With Brazil , it would be powerful idea.

I agree with you we should not settle for anything less than permanent membership with veto. Then perhaps we may need to accept the idea that some members are more equal than others and conduct ourselves accordingly.

What other actions could further the objective. Increasing our share in world trade . Improve broadbased prosperity and share of tertiary and secondary sector should increase . Reforms in agricultural sectors. Improve infrastructure.

Most of all "Ensure Energy Security of the Nation and improve energy eficiency of the GDP"

This by itself would make nations ask us to take UNSC seat as veto powered member.
Fidel Guevara
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by Fidel Guevara »

RajeshA wrote:
They must be hating us a lot!
No, nobody other than the Pakis really "hate" India, but a whole lot of people out there don't want a new guy on the global scene sharing their elite status and influence.

Agreed, perhaps the new "Greater NATO" idea is too much, but they can certainly water down the "elite status" of a P5 seat, and move the key decision-making to another club, and the new club will be an "invitation-only" club.
chaanakya
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by chaanakya »

I think IMF story may have some parallel to what is envisaged here.

Once upon a time, India had to pledge Gold to BOE. Chandrasekhar went with Gold to get pound. IMF gave a lot of sanctimonious advices and conditionalities and we had no option but to accept those. WB also used to give lot of such uncalled for advices.

Now situation has changed and we said " No Thank you" we don't need your money or conditions. Voices for reform has grown to such an extent that now it is being seriously contemplated. If reform is not carried out then IMF and WB would remain instrument of USA and Europe, with Chairmanship going to either by rotation. Now UN is also reflective of this WW-II and cold war era anachronism.
Fidel Guevara
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by Fidel Guevara »

I would suggest that we try for a veto seat when the following happens :

1) Indian manned mission to the moon and/or several manned missions to Earth orbit
2) Top 6 country in Olympics medals tally
3) 6th largest GDP in the world

Top 6 in space + top 6 in sports + top 6 economic power == top 6 country in international perception == easy P6 seat
RajeshA
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by RajeshA »

Fidel Guevara wrote:I would suggest that we try for a veto seat when the following happens :

1) Indian manned mission to the moon and/or several manned missions to Earth orbit
2) Top 6 country in Olympics medals tally
3) 6th largest GDP in the world

Top 6 in space + top 6 in sports + top 6 economic power == top 6 country in international perception == easy P6 seat
From 0 AD to 1700 AD India remained the biggest economy of the world. We may again reach such a status some day.

When other countries became P5, nobody had been to the moon. Except for USA, no other country has sent a man on the moon.

All this self-criticism that we are not good enough is bunkum. We are good enough if we believe we are good enough. We have been taught however to automatically feel otherwise.
Virupaksha
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by Virupaksha »

Fidel Guevara wrote:I would suggest that we try for a veto seat when the following happens :

1) Indian manned mission to the moon and/or several manned missions to Earth orbit
2) Top 6 country in Olympics medals tally
3) 6th largest GDP in the world

Top 6 in space + top 6 in sports + top 6 economic power == top 6 country in international perception == easy P6 seat
and what exactly those 3 conditions have to do with permanent membership of UN?
Pulikeshi
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by Pulikeshi »

Anyone heard of punching above one's weight? :shock: :eek:
Where any of today's powers waiting around for GDP growth to punch above their weight.
A quick refresher course of history books is in order...
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by Klaus »

RajeshA ji, your reply to my post is much appreciated. It has all the arguments that I wanted out in the open.

One more point of contention, would it be wise for India to chart along with Brazil in this venture. IMO they may be ok in the diplomatic channels/ official paperwork and exec level meetings etc but culturally/civilizationally have a dhimmi's perception about India. They really do not understand the idea of India, on the contrary the first thing that comes to mind for many of them is "Hindu rate of growth". Common perception of India goes on the lines of "How these effing cow worshippers have managed to make so much progress?".

I somehow do not think that casting our lot with these colonized minds will be the right thing.
RajeshA
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by RajeshA »

Klaus wrote:RajeshA ji, your reply to my post is much appreciated. It has all the arguments that I wanted out in the open.

One more point of contention, would it be wise for India to chart along with Brazil in this venture. IMO they may be ok in the diplomatic channels/ official paperwork and exec level meetings etc but culturally/civilizationally have a dhimmi's perception about India. They really do not understand the idea of India, on the contrary the first thing that comes to mind for many of them is "Hindu rate of growth". Common perception of India goes on the lines of "How these effing cow worshippers have managed to make so much progress?".

I somehow do not think that casting our lot with these colonized minds will be the right thing.
We are not what other think of others. We are what we believe we are, and it should not disturb us, what others think of us, for they think what they like in order to massage their own egos.

I've known Brazilians. I can only say, that Indians and Brazilians are two people, who have it in their DNA to dance and make merry. When Europeans wanna dance, they would listen to Samba and Bhangra one after the other, without needing any change in mood or temperament to feel one with the music. What we share with the Brazilians is the joie de vivre.

Does Bhangra feel closer to Waltz or to Chinese Opera or to Rap Music? None of them exude the happiness and rhythm of Bhangra or Samba!

One could also find parallels in Brazilian TV Soap Operas and Indian TV Soap Operas.

One could say Argentinians have a bit of an upper-lip, but Brazilians are different in that way!

This is perhaps a bit OT.

Any way, the thing is we build global coalitions based on overlap of national interests and not on cultural perceptions of the other!
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by Klaus »

^^^ "And MY 6 sticks as well!" :D
RajeshA
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by RajeshA »

Marten wrote:RajeshAji, with the greatest respect, I offer you this:

"If you don't let me bat first, I am going home with MY BAT and BALL!"
Marten ji, with the greatest respect, I offer you this:

"I don't want to be a standby player after 65 years!"
RajeshA
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by RajeshA »

Originally posted by Karan Dixit
Published on Oct 02, 2010
By Naveen Kapoor
Germany makes a strong pitch for India''s UNSC candidacy: ANI
New Delhi, Oct. 2 (ANI): Reiterating Germany''s support for India''s candidature for non-permanent membership in the United Nations Security Council, elections for which will be taking place later this month, Germany''s Ambassador to India Thomas Matussek said the UNSC does not reflect current realities, and added that India''s inclusion will be in the larger interests of South Asia.

"In the Security Council, you do not have India. How can you talk about South Asia without India? It is ridiculous. This is why, I believe, India belongs into the Security Council as an elected member but also, in the long run, as a permanent member."

India expects to join the Security Council as a non-permanent member following the elections which is expected to take place on October 12.
RajeshA
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by RajeshA »

Originally posted by abhishek_sharma

Published on Oct 02, 2010
By Sandeep Dikshit
U.S. position on UNSC reform still ‘evolving': Hindu
The Indian approach during discussions with the U.S. on a permanent UNSC seat is to drop the insistence on veto rights as “we are now operating in a different context.” Discussions in the U.N. have moved from open-ended talks to the beginning of negotiations based on the text requested by more than 140 Member States in the last year's U.N. General Assembly. “We have already had a couple of rounds at the U.N….optimists put the possibility of a reformed UNSC at five years and the realistic between five and 10 plus years,” said the sources.
That is the lack of self-respect, we have been alluding to in this thread.

If India enters the UNSC as a permanent member, but not a veto-carrying member, then that position would ossify for the next 50 years - a position where India is not considered as an equal to the other P5.

Forcing reform from inside the UN would just not work, like it should. Low ambitions are forced upon you using proxy-obstructors like the Coffee Club.

This is not about permanent memberships or about vetoes. This is about Indian equality with the big powers of the world to guide the world's destiny.
RajeshA
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by RajeshA »

I have a question to all BRFites, who would wish to answer:

What has the U.N. done till date for India's national interests?
Singha
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by Singha »

word on the street from TOI-

- Obama has made an offer to MMS to 'settle' J&K on terms favouring TSP
- in return Obama will get TSP to withdraw objections to India's non-veto seat in USNC :rotfl:
- US will also overtly support India's non-veto place in USNC (like it has done for japan)
- 'promises' that in 15 yrs time, the non-veto will be converted to a veto :rotfl:

now in last 20 yrs I cannot remember when USNC was used for anything else but rubber stamping certain
US decisions

if we even get a veto seat, does that mean P5 will support trade sanctions due to paki terrorism - NO NO

will it control the pakis ? - NO

will it control chinese border incusions ? - No

so WTF is there for us - except cushy postings for more IFS officers and hangers on in NYC and chances for ministerial
delegations to fly their first class, shop, drink coffee and talk shop with similar useless folks from other nations.

this is not bad deal. it is not even worthy of being called deal.
RajeshA
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by RajeshA »

US is taking the legitimacy that India accords to the UN for granted.
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by Carl_T »

With all the problems the UN has, how would India be better off if it were to leave the UN? I don't see how it would serve any Indian interests.
RajeshA
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by RajeshA »

Video: 8 JUNE 2010

Position of the Various Countries on UNSC Reform

"The Chair of the Intergovernmental Negotiations Group for the Security Council reform, Afghan Ambassador Zahir Tanin tells reporters at the United Nations that a text with proposals has been achieved and is ready to be used as "a vehicle for those negotiations"."
Last edited by RajeshA on 03 Oct 2010 11:52, edited 1 time in total.
RajeshA
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by RajeshA »

Carl_T wrote:With all the problems the UN has, how would India be better off if it were to leave the UN? I don't see how it would serve any Indian interests.
How does staying in U.N. serve Indian interests?
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by Carl_T »

Well you are talking about leaving the UN, so how would your idea be better than status quo?
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by chetak »

RajeshA wrote:US is taking the legitimacy that India accords to the UN for granted.

We should slowly dial down our activities in the UN
and generally mind our own business.

This dhimmi peacekeeping activities has us bracketed with the failed countries like the pakis and the bangladeshis.

Force some of the other countries to step up to the plate and do their bit for world peace and order.

We should also tone down our WTO involvement to strictly business deals and leave ideology out of the negotiations.

Unofficial trade sanctions against countries that run us down like making examples of canada and australia after the CWG.

Bite a few and gain the respect of the others like the chinese have done.
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by RajeshA »

Carl_T wrote:Well you are talking about leaving the UN, so how would your idea be better than status quo?
Well in this thread we have been discussing exactly that point. You may like to review the thread.

But summarizing, it is about the P5 paying India her due for not spoiling their party by walking out.

Should India walk out (along with Brazil), it would just be the first of the dominoes falling. The danger of U.N. breaking apart would suffice as motivation for the P5 to rethink their attitude to India's entry into UNSC. If India alone walks out, it means UNSC resolutions lose the legitimacy of one sixth of mankind.

Also if UN (aka P5) try to bring back India into the fold, they will be bringing back India directly into the UNSC with full powers - veto-carrying permanent seat.

From inside, India can never achieve that. India would be shown the carrots and then continuously blackmailed for the next 20 years on one issue or another.

The shopkeeper calls after you to give you a good price, only when your are willing to walk away from the deal.

India has got a stupid U.N. Resolution forced down our throats on Kashmir. That is all U.N. has given us.
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by Singha »

true. and I dont see any trade benefits or soft loans we got by virtue of being in UN.

successive generations of IFS/IAS types have got lucratively paying UN postings in NYC/geneva/zurich due to UN and purloined
scholarships for their children and friends thats all. the babucracy just loves the UN I would think.

every country has their consulate in delhi - they can well deal with us bilaterally.
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by Pratyush »

Rajesh,

The Indian position on the UN is complex one. This was originaly seen as a body that would help to resolve conflicts through dialog. The Indian constitution I feel mandates the Indian government to remain a part of the body which helps to futher the above objective.

Having made a cursury read of the Constitution of India I found Article 51 which deals with Promotion of international peace and security

The State shall endeavour to—
(a) promote international peace and security;
(b) maintain just and honourable relations between nations;
(c) foster respect for international law and treaty obligations in the dealings of organized peoples with one another; and
(d) encourage settlement of international disputes by arbitration.
The Article 51 c can be read to mean that the Indian government is obligated to remain a part of the UN system regardless of wheter the objectives of state have been met or not.

Though I whould appreciate the opinions of those who know the constitution of India better then me.

So unless the aforementioned article is amended I feel that India will remain a part of the UN system.

JMT
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by Hari Seldon »

Interesting discussion and all, so far. Commendable effort RajeshA garu.

I agree with much if what you say, however, I voted 'No'.

IMHO, undermining the UNSC from within is a much better way.
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by RajeshA »

Hari Seldon wrote:IMHO, undermining the UNSC from within is a much better way.
We cannot undermine UNSC from within, because we are not part of UN Security Council.

We are only part of the UN or UN General Assembly, which is a body of 192 countries, each with a single vote, and UNGA has no power to legislate on peace and security matters, which is the exclusive purview of UN Security Council.

Even if we are elected to the UNSC as a non-permanent member, it is only for two-years, and there is not much one can do within that period to undermine the UNSC except create some irritants for the P5.
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by RajeshA »

Pratyush wrote:Rajesh,

The Indian position on the UN is complex one. This was originaly seen as a body that would help to resolve conflicts through dialog. The Indian constitution I feel mandates the Indian government to remain a part of the body which helps to futher the above objective.

Having made a cursury read of the Constitution of India I found Article 51 which deals with Promotion of international peace and security

The State shall endeavour to—
(a) promote international peace and security;
(b) maintain just and honourable relations between nations;
(c) foster respect for international law and treaty obligations in the dealings of organized peoples with one another; and
(d) encourage settlement of international disputes by arbitration.
The Article 51 c can be read to mean that the Indian government is obligated to remain a part of the UN system regardless of wheter the objectives of state have been met or not.

Though I whould appreciate the opinions of those who know the constitution of India better then me.

So unless the aforementioned article is amended I feel that India will remain a part of the UN system.

JMT
Au contraire mon frere,
In my reading of it, Article 51 c forces us to take a hard line.

Because we are NOT a permanent member of UNSC with an equal power to the most powerful amongst the members, the P5, with veto powers, we are NOT BEING ABLE to do full justice to our constitutional obligations.

Secondly simply by tolerating an 'international system' which reflects the international situation as it was 65 years ago, and not the current world, we are supporting an illegitimate system which has lost its credibility. Such a system promotes disrespect for international law. We cannot support such a system with a good conscience. :mrgreen:
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by abhischekcc »

Of the roughly 24000 troops that UN has on duty around the world, about 11000 are from India and BD each.

It shows how dependant the UN system is on just two countries for peacekeeping forces.

In addition to membership reform, we should also ask for commitment reform. Permanent members should provide at least 5000 troops each to qualify for permanent membership and veto :eek:

That would automatically disqualify UQ and Frenchistan, and reflect the balance of power in the current global scenario.
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by Pratyush »

Rajesh,

You are thinking in terms of getting a UNSC seat. I am in terms of exiting the UN in the absence of UNSC seat. So we are in agreement :P

JMT
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by RajeshA »

Published on Oct 02, 2010
By K. Natwar Singh
UNSC - An unfair arrangement: Business Standard
If ever the Security Council is to be expanded, it will require the approval of the P-5. Various formulas have been suggested. One, India, Brazil, South Africa plus Japan or Germany be added as permanent members. Two, Egypt and Nigeria be added. Three, the newcomers would not have a veto. Four, the P-5 would not in future exercise their right to use the veto. Five, the additional permanent members should serve for a fixed period so that other UN members also get a chance.

As external affairs minister, I had made India’s position clear. We could {not} accept being a permanent member without a veto. We could not be second-division players. One minority view was, “Let’s accept what is being offered and ask for more later.” The reality is that, “more later” is wishful thinking.

Of the P-5, Russia, the UK and France support India’s bid for a permanent Security Council seat. That leaves the US and China. Neither has declared its support for India. The other day, an absurd theory was floated. US President Barack Obama, during his state visit to India, would suggest that if New Delhi settled the Kashmir issue, then the US would help India become a permanent member. Mercifully, the Ministry of External Affairs has rubbished this fanciful idea.

What about China? At the end of the state visit of President Pratibha Patil to China, it was proclaimed by some members of the delegation that Beijing had apparently assured our president that it would support India for a permanent seat in the UN Security Council. This was a spectacular example of mixing facts with hopes. At no time has China declared its support for India. Neither will it. China practises realpolitik. It is in the power game. We have yet to learn to play the power game. China today is the sole representative at the Security Council of Asia, Africa and Latin America. This is a unique position. This is a wholly unfair arrangement. One cannot, however, ignore reality. China will continue to say that it would like to see India play a more active role at the UN. I may not have got the exact words but the sense I have undoubtedly caught.

We should also bear in mind certain sensibilities of the P-5, especially of China, the UK and France. China will, in the foreseeable future, not agree to have India or Japan as veto-wielding permanent members. Argentina will oppose Brazil. So will Mexico. the UK and France will veto if any attempt is made to adversely affect their present status. By any impartial criteria, neither of the two should be wielding the veto power. All one can say is, what cannot be cured must be endured. {or disallured}
From the horse's mouth!

India has to come up with a game-changer, otherwise this logjam would continue.
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by shiv »

abhischekcc wrote:Of the roughly 24000 troops that UN has on duty around the world, about 11000 are from India and BD each.
In WW2 Indian troops served as the chowkidars of the British empire. After WW2 the victors appointed themselves the guardians of the world and promised sucker countries like India of a fair system and that "their help" with more chowkidars, would be welcome. Indian troops under firangi command are not chowkidars of the world. They need to come back.
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by RamaY »

RajeshA ji,

IMHO, there are multiple layers to this problem.

- Firstly, India (Indians) has to shed the psychology that others will have to "recognise" us and "give" us something based on our population size, civilizational history etc. First of all Indians should start working towards (Karma-Yoga) economic, military, and cultural preeminence. Even then it should "earn" UNSC perm-seat by creating havoc in UN from within.

- Secondly, India is yet to build internal consensus on its supreme national-interests and demonstrate its willingness to use all its energies to protect them.

- Thirdly, India is yet to create a international-block of countries (based on a specific world-view) that it represents and work towards. This is most important to have 20-30 nations who would benefit from your actions and contribute towards India's endeavors.

To be contd...
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by Rajdeep »

^^well said.

However, I think that the non-confrontational, meek attitude is genetic and is not necessary a bad thing. There has to be a better way at using this to our advantage and come out on top.
We are good economically and to an extent scientifically. We have a large resource of young people which will lead to a economic golden age in the next generation. There has to be something good that comes out of this.
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by RajeshA »

Published on Oct 06, 2010
By Krishnan Srinivasan
[Former foreign secretary of India]
Open Sesame - The time is not yet ripe for India to enter the UN security council: Calcutta Telegraph

Another article espousing the virtues of patience!

What India does not seem to understand is, that the politics of United Nations Security Council are so structured that at any given time, there are countries from Israel, to India, to Iran, to Sudan, to Myanmar, to Pakistan, to North Korea, to Indonesia, to Serbia who have all been dependent on the patronage and veto of one or the other P5 Member to ward off challenges to its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Secondly amongst the P5 itself support and restraint on veto have been up for sale, its a currency of business amongst the P5.

That means the P5 have had a field day in power politics, far and above any power they would have had otherwise. This has allowed the P5 to develop economically and strategically at a much stronger pace.

EVERYDAY that India allows the P5 to retain this power monopoly is a day India allows the P5 member, say China, to widen its sphere of influence accruing on it greater levels of economic and military power, putting more distance between itself and others, like India.

So what happens when one day, the world recognizes the golden aura of Indian existence and gives India a place in the sun on the high table?! Nothing! India would have learned little about power politics even then and would not avail of its many privileges, considering all that sinful.

Power is not something bestowed upon somebody. It has to be fought over. It has to be snatched.

Had India had such a mentality, we today would have been there where China is, regarding power equations!
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by Philip »

Shiv is being far more ruthless than myself.I've used the term "constable" instead of "chowkidar",but in truth he is more accurate.Our status in the UN is pathetic given our strengths and capabilities.A close pal of mine,deceased,former FM of a neighbouring country,always used to remark to me how idiotic our MEA was in not leveraging our strengths whereas China,having realised its stength was on the offensive.

However,compare India's stature outside the UN and one will see a remarkable difference.many nations across the world treat us with greater respect as an individual nation than as part of the UN tribe.The latest Economist mag has in a cover page feature said that India's grwoth will surpass that of China.Therefore,as Shiv and others have said we should form a "ginger group" of current devloping nations,some like Brazil and S.Africa deserving of a UNSC seat,and lobby for genuine changes not cosmetic in the UN's format.Neither can there be a watering down of the UNSC with a host of G-20 "fellow travellers" who will ensure with their presence that India & co. will have no veto and that the P-5's privileges will remain permanent!
India and the other nations,NAM nations can be roped in,should propose an alternative global forum with enhanced equality amongst fellow nations and this group threaten to resign en-bloc if its reforms were not met.Numerically the new outfit would vastly outnumber those wishing to remain within the UN which would inevtitably either have to change drastically or become another footnoote of history.
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Re: Should India leave UN, if we don't get a veto seat in UN

Post by RajeshA »

Philip wrote:NAM nations can be roped in,should propose an alternative global forum with enhanced equality amongst fellow nations and this group threaten to resign en-bloc if its reforms were not met.
I see people sipping Coffee everywhere!

The problem is that UNSC holds the power to lay down law for the international community. All other groups may pass declarations and make calls, but they have no legal force.

The only way to reform the UNSC is by threatening the P5 with destroying the hold on power. It can be done either
  1. Walking out of the UN with some other countries (Brazil, etc.), and bringing down the legitimacy of the U.N., or
  2. Proposing changes to UNSC which would take away the power of the P5.
Proposals for changes to UNSC:

WEAK VETO PLAN
It can be argued that major nations have very high stakes in the welfare of the international system and the necessary mind-set to ensure the stability, so their input is constantly needed. As such there is some excuse for the concept of permanent members. Such members could be - let's say, USA, PRC, India, EU, Russia, Brazil and Japan and a rotating African seat between Nigeria, South Africa and Egypt, each getting the opportunity for 2 years. Other than these 8 permanent seats, maybe another 11 non-permanent seats would be appropriate.

Any resolution would require a majority of 13 votes in favor. Currently one requires a 3/5 majority, i.e. 9/15.

One would need 3 permanent members to vote against for any resolution to be considered vetoed. This would avoid
  1. Any permanent member looking after only its own interests during voting.
  2. Any permanent member being able to exact an exorbitant compensation for withholding its veto.
  3. Any permanent members hunting in groups of two. (strategic vetoing)
Many countries in the General Assembly would sanction the weakening of the veto power of the P5, and as such there is a good possibility of such a plan being accepted.

EVERYONE HIS DUE PLAN

If one wants to push for certain ideals in this world, this is the best way to do it.

There can still be permanent members as stated above reflecting the power equations at the moment - USA, PRC, India, EU, Russia, Brazil, Japan, African Seat (Nigeria, South Africa or Egypt). There can be other non-permanent members elected to the Council.

However the weightage of their votes would be calculated according to a formula which takes following factors into consideration:
  • Population
  • Rate of Population Growth
  • GDP
  • Representativeness of the Population
  • Contributions to World Peace by Survey
Each factor can be assigned a certain weightage in the overall equation. Contributions to World Peace can be ascertained by how the other countries in the General Assembly grade you, how high have been the contributions to the U.N., to what extent a country has participated in peace-keeping activities, etc.

Representativeness of the Population can be ascertained by a U.N. group which assesses the level of democracy in the country and ascertains the level to which the representating govt. represents the will of its people.

There would be some pressure on the countries to either increase the population or to express higher figures for their populations. The rate of population growth per undisputed land area in the last 20 years should also be factored in.

The population weightage for a country should be reassigned, say, every 20 years, so as to not give any country too much of an incentive to increase the population size.

Just some thoughts.
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