Pan-Subcontinentalism - A New Nationalism!

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 04 Jan 2011 02:53

Of all the threads, I think this is the best one for this article. Read and learn from history, folks. Read, learn and remember. For those who Forget Are Doomed to Repeat It.

A khaki dissident on 1971

"Kill as many b@stards as you can and make sure there is no Hindu left alive"

Over nine million went as refugees to India. An order was given to kill the Hindus. I received the same order many times and was reminded of it .

Of the ninety-three lakh (9.3 million) refugees in India, ninety lakh were Hindus

Still want the pakis and the bangladeshis to join with India for pan-subcontinentalism?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 Jan 2011 03:12

anupmisra wrote:Still want the pakis and the bangladeshis to join with India for pan-subcontinentalism?

anupmisra ji,
don't take the propaganda too seriously!

Any unification would proceed only after opportune conditions have been created.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 04 Jan 2011 06:06

RajeshA wrote:anupmisra ji, don't take the propaganda too seriously! Any unification would proceed only after opportune conditions have been created.

Rajesh,

I sure hope you were kidding in your post. What propaganda? Are you saying that the murder of Hindus in erstwhile E. Pakistan was propaganda and not to be taken seriously? A joke, then? And, that too, spread by an ex-paki commando?

So that I understand your beliefs better, lets take your argument to the next level. You said "Any unification would proceed only after opportune conditions have been created".

Are you serious, man! Are you hoping for a political union a la East and West Germanies? Or, a EU type fiscal, boundary-less union where hordes of Germans descend into France, Belgium and Holland by just driving across the border every summer? Can you please clarify what "opportune conditions" are you referring to? A sudden change of mind and realization among the pious pakis? Who is going to create those conditions? The UN? The pakis? How long do you estimate that would take? How long are you (or your future generations) willing to wait for it? Remember we are talkiing about 350 million muslims in pakistan and bangladesh today who are obligated by their scriptures to kill or subjugate Hindus. This is a population which is growing by 1.4% to 2.1% annually. Most of them are potential terrorists. It took ten to paralyse Bombay. There is a reason why there is a mountain range called "The Hindukush" and there is a good reason why thinking Hindus let that name be. Its serves as a reminder, a memorial. The same reason why the world's Jews did not ask for the destruction of Dachau and Auschwitz after WWII.

The name Hindukush serves to many clear sighted Hindus (including me) as a reminder what our ancestors went through many centuries ago. An abhorring and despicable, but necessary reminder.

Now lets talk about "reunification". Do you still wish for it?

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 04 Jan 2011 06:11

anupmisra ji,

+1 only.

I'm supposed to believe there's some grand chankian bent behind sri rajeshA's clever maneuvers on here. So there were also behind aman ki assa, IMHO. Same outcome - no point preaching to yindooze simply because they won;t lynch you for daring to preach only.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 04 Jan 2011 06:16

Indian Ham-let;s dilemma , Do Reconquita or do Reunification !! Both pangs of separation yet different .

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 Jan 2011 08:54

anupmisra ji,
I was talking about my propaganda!

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 04 Jan 2011 17:06

RajeshA wrote:anupmisra ji,
I was talking about my propaganda!

So, I shouldn't take you seriously? That's a first time admission on BRF.

Samudragupta · Post by **Samudragupta** » 04 Jan 2011 17:43

Deception,Deception and only deception is the rule of the game.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 Jan 2011 18:12

anupmisra wrote:
RajeshA wrote:anupmisra ji,
I was talking about my propaganda!
So, I shouldn't take you seriously? That's a first time admission on BRF.

I am saying, you can take the intention behind the propaganda seriously, but not necessarily the content of the propaganda on this thread.

The thread is only a Kool-Aid factory!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Jan 2011 19:04

The only matter on which the nations of the subcontinent may agree upon at this moment in time is making money to benefit all entities.This requires an EU style agreement such as the Treaty of Rome.Decades later,the ECM has evolved into the EU and a shared central decision making babudom has captured a lot of power in Brussels.I strongly doubt whether the subcontinental mindset will ever agree to "losing" power and handing it over to a regional version of Brussels,say "Colombo",which would probably be the most acceptable location for any central admin HQ.

The first task is to change the name of SAARC.This has been an unmitigated disaster of a name,rhymes with "shark"and all the awful things associated with that animal,terribly unauspicious.I suggest SAFE (South Asian Federation Economic).SAFE sounds safe and will be "safe",as contentious political issues will be taboo,safer dealt with bilaterally.Once the states of SAFE begin to enjoy economic prosperity,through an open trading system where all benefit,tensions should slowly reduce.Decades/years later when the opportune moments arrive,a common security arrangement can also be worked out just as the ASEAN nations have done.There is no need for a SAFE military entity or "SATO".I cannot see either a Paki or Indian general willing to obey orders from his opposite number as in NATO at all! However,in the fullness of time,common security sharing can certainly be worked out.

Networking within the subcontinent is absolutely required and this should be given a massive thrust rather than search for "solutions" to Kashmir,etc.Let money-making begin enriching all the member states and then water will find its own level.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 Jan 2011 19:22

Hari Seldon wrote:I'm supposed to believe there's some grand chankian bent behind sri rajeshA's clever maneuvers on here.

There is nothing behind. All is up front. I've been talking about this since 24th Oct, 2010. I talked about it in my ebook. I am discussing it in the Google Group. And now I am talking about it on this thread. All my considerations and ideas are accessible. They may or may not find somebody's approval, but I wouldn't characterize them as some hidden "grand chankian bent".

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 04 Jan 2011 20:55

Kool-aid or not; such topics need to be prodded and discussed. The problems listed by many BRFites are valid and necessarily have to be tackled. Maybe some of these can never be addressed, and one would have to just side-step some of these territories and look elsewhere. One thing is certain with a huge population the country will start to face land and resource crunch. Agricultural, supply-chain ityadi productivity can be raised no doubt, but the demand is and will be higher than the supply. We need to have mix and match of arable lands for agriculture, lands for factories, lands for forests, lands for people to live and lands for animals. There are 2 choices:
1) Find new lands
2) Redistribute population

And both of them are not easy. But it is not foolish to look for land in one's neighborhood first - a.k.a the Sub-continent. China is reacting to its problems, we should too.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 Jan 2011 22:31

SwamyG wrote:Kool-aid or not; such topics need to be prodded and discussed. The problems listed by many BRFites are valid and necessarily have to be tackled. Maybe some of these can never be addressed, and one would have to just side-step some of these territories and look elsewhere.

SwamyG ji,
Everything is of course open for discussion. I have never implied otherwise.

The Pan-Subcontinentalism Nationalism is first and foremost directed at the people of our neighborhood or to those within India, who look elsewhere for their world-view anchor. It is conceived to address the need for a centripetal philosophy in the Indian Subcontinent.

One needs to make a distinction between a state where a substantial number of motivated Subcontinentals from neighboring countries adhere to Pan-Subcontinentalism form of nationalism and act accordingly, becoming a political constituency there putting pressure at the political orientation of their respective countries, and a second state where actually serious efforts at unification are undertaken.

There is a difference between a state in which there are 161 million Muslims believing in Islam living in India and a second-state in which India is part of some Ummah-Khilafat, which indeed may be a dream of some Indian Muslims.

SwamyG wrote:One thing is certain with a huge population the country will start to face land and resource crunch. Agricultural, supply-chain ityadi productivity can be raised no doubt, but the demand is and will be higher than the supply. We need to have mix and match of arable lands for agriculture, lands for factories, lands for forests, lands for people to live and lands for animals. There are 2 choices:
1) Find new lands
2) Redistribute population

And both of them are not easy. But it is not foolish to look for land in one's neighborhood first - a.k.a the Sub-continent. China is reacting to its problems, we should too.

The only option on the Subcontinent is to make huge sustainable energy-efficient and ecology-friendly skyscraper cities.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 05 Jan 2011 00:36

Rajesh: That post was not addressed to you. It was actually meant for others who think such ideas cannot be implemented now or in the future. So me supporting this thread and you onlee, of course we will have differences. For example, I do not think skyscraper cities is the answer to all the issues. Drainage, water and roads will still be issues in such cities. But that will become totally OT. Also, adding 320 billion people from Pakistan and Bangaladesh does not give a comfortable feeling. But a country still has to think on similar lines - that is where I agree with you.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 05 Jan 2011 00:45

Expansion will be possible Onxef Indians get the capability to invest Trillions in Canada and Australia. Both of these countries can absorb huge amount of population.Their future also lies in becoming pluralistic like Canindia and AusIndia rerspectivly. And since China has shown its teeth, may be make a deal with Holy Dalai Lama for merger of Tibbet in future . 20millon India per Trillion in investment is fair bargain.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Jan 2011 01:11

SwamyG wrote:Also, adding 320 billion people from Pakistan and Bangaladesh does not give a comfortable feeling.

Just a clarification, I think India should only accept about 30% of the Pakistan population that is either in areas that have geo-strategic importance to us, and at the same time, have less anti-Hindu or anti-India sentiments and where one can make the oppression argument at the hands of the establishment. Under no circumstances can India take in Pakjab, Seraikistan, Pushtun areas or Karachi.

Pan-Subcontinentalist Nationalism is however for all Subcontinentals!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Jan 2011 01:15

Prem wrote:Expansion will be possible Onxef Indians get the capability to invest Trillions in Canada and Australia. Both of these countries can absorb huge amount of population.Their future also lies in becoming pluralistic like Canindia and AusIndia rerspectivly. And since China has shown its teeth, may be make a deal with Holy Dalai Lama for merger of Tibbet in future . 20millon India per Trillion in investment is fair bargain.

After the first trillion dollars itself, Indians in Canindia and Ausindia would have sufficient numbers to change migration laws to allow more Indians without further payments.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 05 Jan 2011 02:57

"

RajeshAAfter the first trillion dollars itself, Indians in Canindia and Ausindia would have sufficient numbers to change migration laws to allow more Indians without further payments. :

wink: My estimate is 2 T to seal the deal for both English speaking nations of Common wealth . If all remain same , By 2020 India's annual saving will reach 1.5 T and still on upward swing. And another 5 years of similar development opens up so many attractive options to spread Arya Sanskriti in the lands of Anglo Saxonism.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jan 2011 03:30

A point being lost in all these arguments about religion etc is that India needs to expand its geography. Only Mrs G understood that and added land to India while earlier land was lost.

Its control of geography that controls the destiny with which we promised a tryst.

We have a narrow window of ~100 year to achieve this as the demographic bulge gives us that resource.

In order to harness it constructively we need to educate and make prosperous the added population and increase our total wealth to achieve the increase in geography. Once we control the geogprahy we control the destiny.

We lost control of geography in the post-Harsha period and need to take it back.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 05 Jan 2011 04:21

Couple of years ago when i mentioned that getting rich is the first requirement, many accused me of being greedy Baniya.

Having one of the top 3 economies of the world with the advantage of population bulge , the sky is the limit for India integrating many empty lands besides near abroad. The world will not see This scale combination of both for very long time. One thing which might undermine or slow the process is our inexperience in smashing idiiot heads at large scale . As bad , distasteful as it can be but this is the lesson of last millenium. Anglo Saxons, Islamist, Chinese all have been ahead of us in this field. We have a ripe target to set this kind of example to feed the right co-ordinant for exploring the nearest target star.
Now we know why DIEs are forced on us to fail In realizing such potential. The rather serve than own it .

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 05 Jan 2011 04:29

Prem wrote: wink: My estimate is 2 T to seal the deal for both English speaking nations of Common wealth . If all remain same , By 2020 India's annual saving will reach 1.5 T and still on upward swing. And another 5 years of similar development opens up so many attractive options to spread Arya Sanskriti in the lands of Anglo Saxonism.

Indians have to create dharma based society to expand arya system. Creating dharma based social system is the key in the new lands and also absorbing the new population into the dharma system thru copulation.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Jan 2011 05:15

The thing is, we cannot compromise on the geographical expansion because of a religion, and we cannot compromise on the philosophy because of the geographical expansion. Both needs to be satisfied. "Unity through struggle", i.e., struggle-unite-struggle again-unite again-struggle....until both are achieved.

We tend to get carried away to choosing only one direction of the dialectical approach. The general mass of followers of a certain faith(s) are not the enemies, their faith leadership are, their faith institutions are, and we need to struggle against those latter two. We need to de-integrate the followers from their affiliation and there are time tested methods to do so. This is the struggle. It has two parts : (a) struggle against the ideology and institutions and leadership (b) struggle against lingering affiliation in the followers. It is not however targeted at the decimation of the follower but rather a reversion and which may lead to decimation of part as a tactical necessity but that should not be a strategy. The reversion and then reabsoption is the unity part. So struggle against the Ulema and Dawa and Jihad but unite with the follower.

The process has to be continued however because without our own philosophy remaining intact and the guide for future development - this struggle cannot be continued, and there will be no ultimate aim to drive the struggle. So in "uniting" however we cannot compromise on our own philosophy - which means we cannot abandon SD. We can reinterpret SD, but we cannot redefine it and throw it away to make others happy.

Both struggle and unification need ideological confidence and all negotiations have to proceed from ideological strength and commitment. Otherwise it will fail.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 05 Jan 2011 05:23

RajeshA wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote:I'm supposed to believe there's some grand chankian bent behind sri rajeshA's clever maneuvers on here.
There is nothing behind. All is up front. I've been talking about this since 24th Oct, 2010. I talked about it in my ebook. I am discussing it in the Google Group. And now I am talking about it on this thread. All my considerations and ideas are accessible. They may or may not find somebody's approval, but I wouldn't characterize them as some hidden "grand chankian bent".

Relax, rajeshA ji. I know your heart's in the right place and you're as pro-India as anyone else here.

Besides, why the defensiveness at the suggestion that the proposed plan may unfold in ways not immediately obvious at first glance only? The 'behind' as used above doesn't refer to backside, besides.

In any case, it's clear that big pieces of the puzzle are left unexplained, conveniently, perhaps. The need, as B-ji says, to use the harshest measures to weed out the incorrigibly violent among the Paquis and our own demonstrated lack of requisite ruthlessness to effect such are not exactly top secret material.

Anyway, all the best in your endeavors. I do continue to hope that India not allow masses of Packee abduls within its borders anytime soon. PoK/NA and Baluchistan are exceptions. Keep everyone else out.

Added later:
An unqualified 'sorry' if my words ended up hurting your sensibilities in any way.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 05 Jan 2011 05:37

Sindhi should also be allowed to come under the umbrela as they bring in coast line to seal the whole deal. This take care of the water between Iran and Indonesia and Port of Dahir again regain its glory after 999 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahir_(Raja)
We are told that in those days, also, the inhabitants of the island of Selandeep (Ceylon) were accustomed to send vessels to the coast of Africa, to the Red Sea, and to the Persian Gulf, a practice prevailing from the earliest ages; and that Hindoo pilgrims resorted to Mecca and Egypt for the purpose of paying adoration to the idols, to which they looked with the utmost veneration.

( Oak was right about Mecca being Shivalya)

astal · Post by **astal** » 05 Jan 2011 06:06

RajeshA, and BRFites,

Thank you for creating and developing this thread. We really need to think about this question, not only for resources, but for another entirely different reason.

What would be India's response to a JDAM (Jehadi delivered atomic munition)? First people will be driven instinctively to riot. Poor IMs would be held accountable for far more than their own faults. This will be counter productive.

What would be a reasonable response from GOI, the Indian Army and India as a whole? In my opinion, India would have to occupy and disinfect all of Pakistan of its Jehadi Tendencies. Kind of like Germany was cleaned of its Nazi tendencies.

To disinfect Pakistan we need to encourage and develop a Pluralistic version of Islam. If we are able to develop and enforce a Pluralistic version of Islam, unification is irrelevent.

As for any absorption without dejehadification. That is out of the question.

Please Pardon me for going slightly OT here, but there is a next step to PAN Subcontinental ism.

India needs to strive towards a Union of Pluralistic States, similar to the European Union. We can start out with India, Sri Lanka, Thailand, Myanmar, Cambodia, Nepal, Bhutan. Later we can add richer countries like Singapore and Japan.

I am also particularly hopeful about China. When China gets over its communist burden and reverts to their former pluralistic past, a grand Asian Union is possible. Australia would beg to join eventually. As for the Jehadis in our neighborhood, they are welcome to join if they demonstrate a verifiable permanent and sustainable commitment to pluralism. This may take many years. We have to think in terms of offering them a pluralistic option within Islam (Think of Abdul Kalam).

Samudragupta · Post by **Samudragupta** » 05 Jan 2011 09:33

The project of nationalism, its discourses, cultural policies and ideology are not the only driving force in the re-production of urban space and geography, as the forces of capitalist accumulation are more determinative most of the times. Yet, as I have sought to demonstrate in this paper, under the specific historical conditions of creating a nation-state on the ruins of an Empire, nationalism might indeed be
a very momentous, if not the decisive driving force in shaping the material reality and the history of a place.
The process of nationalist imagination and appropriation seems to develop a dynamic of its own, once it shows its first success, as it is fuelled by the interest of local beneficiaries and elites, who need to
conceal the material basis of their wealth and power.

http://www.hks.harvard.edu/kokkalis/GSW5/oktem.pdf

Samudragupta · Post by **Samudragupta** » 05 Jan 2011 10:06

Sometimes back in the strat forum i tried to initiate a scenario of replacing the elites of the East by the Indics, needless to say it was too radical and ultimately Dev Guru proved how it is incompatible with the fundamental NI of this nation, but the basic concept remains the same,

Creation of Elites in the separatists camp who can be co-opted in the scheme of the things,if the current elite is incapable of doing it, they need to be decimated for the future elites who will be indics in culture.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 06 Jan 2011 00:20

ramana wrote:A point being lost in all these arguments about religion etc is that India needs to expand its geography. Only Mrs G understood that and added land to India while earlier land was lost.

No ramana garu, that point is not being lost. Some of us have been arguing for it at BRF.

Ameet · Post by **Ameet** » 06 Jan 2011 00:34

Is Pakistan Part of South Asia? Yes!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aparna-pa ... 03654.html

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 06 Jan 2011 00:43

Ameet wrote:Is Pakistan Part of South Asia? Yes!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aparna-pa ... 03654.html

In order to create any sort of identity for the present or future, we humans have relied on our past history. In the absence of a past history or a history to not our liking, we fish around and jumble up contorted present in order to create a future identity. Pakistan is a perfect example of this. To some extent India after Independence can be cited as an example too - especially leaders who wanted to do nothing with our own past.

I post this to ponder on the importance of "having a history" or "lacking history". So often people question or comment, "why look at the past or history", "past is past...let us move on" itiaydi.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Jan 2011 02:25

Ameet wrote:Is Pakistan Part of South Asia? Yes!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aparna-pa ... 03654.html

Is India part of South Asia? No!

WTF is South Asia? I know only of Indian Subcontinent!

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 06 Jan 2011 02:43

by Prem
Couple of years ago when i mentioned that getting rich is the first requirement, many accused me of being greedy Baniya. Having one of the top 3 economies of the world with the advantage of population bulge , the sky is the limit for India integrating many empty lands besides near abroad. The world will not see This scale combination of both for very long time. One thing which might undermine or slow the process is our inexperience in smashing idiiot heads at large scale . As bad , distasteful as it can be but this is the lesson of last millenium. Anglo Saxons, Islamist, Chinese all have been ahead of us in this field. We have a ripe target to set this kind of example to feed the right co-ordinant for exploring the nearest target star.
Now we know why DIEs are forced on us to fail In realizing such potential. The rather serve than own it .

Exactly!!! Indians need to move out of India and settle into other resource rich areas which are all over the world.

Person : basic education (read/write english) and driving/etc skills.

Tier 1. Canada, Australia, USA. <--- 5 years to become rich (per indian standards)
Tier 2. Russia, South America <--- 10 years to become rich
Tier 3. Africa, East Asia. <--- 20 years to become rich.

and don't forget that desis living in videsh do eat Daal Roti and watch Indian television, movies, read indian books and support their temples/gurdwaras/etc in community., all of which contributes back to Des.

It is for nothing that Gandhi, Nehru, Bose, et all who explored outside of India became smarter Desis when back in Des (just compare the contribution of an average NRIs vs average Non-NRIs).

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 06 Jan 2011 03:52

^^^^
Uh no, let us not get into NRIs vs Indians discussions, please. I agree with all your points about the positive effect; I have been on the same bandwagon - 1) Find more lands 2) Redistribute people. But let us not get into NRI, RNI, Indians ityadi.

Rajesh: Chill out, tanda lassi piyo ji.....

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 07 Jan 2011 02:52

The point I am trying to make is that there is no such thing as "south asian conscience" but Indian conscience is bright among the diaspora from Guyana, Suriname to Burma, Singapore and Australia.

The India might not exist as a land mass protected by Himalayas and fed by Ganga jamuna (due to current policies) but it will always exist among the people of this land mass.

So for example A muslim in Suriname whose great grand parents from Bihar migrated to Suriname identifies itself with INDIA and not Pakistan which was created in 1947 or south asia which was created in 1980s.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 07 Jan 2011 02:56

SwamyG wrote:Rajesh: Chill out, tanda lassi piyo ji.....

In my family, they still use my ears to make kulfi!

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 07 Jan 2011 03:52

Bajwa ji: Please take a look at this New Homelands: Hindu communities in Mauritius, Guyana, Trinidad, South Africa, Fiji and East Africa. It is a link to preview in google books.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 07 Jan 2011 10:18

So for example A muslim in Suriname whose great grand parents from Bihar migrated to Suriname identifies itself with INDIA and not Pakistan which was created in 1947 or south asia which was created in 1980s.

As an experiment I told a Parsi from Pakistan that as he was born in pre-partition India he was an Indian

He certainly didn't object

Samudragupta · Post by **Samudragupta** » 08 Jan 2011 19:56

Some thoughts on "Indian Grand Strategy"
http://www.ipcs.org/pdf_file/issue/Indi ... rategy.pdf

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 08 Jan 2011 20:16

Migration while maintaining the affiliation to SD is perhaps in a way not a bad hedging device. Migrations from a strong cultural root runs the danger of being morphed or diluted beyond recognition. But then if it comes out without those apects that were not really a part of the core system but mere appendages developed out of circumstantial interactions - then all the better.

Moreover, away from homeland, there is more a necessity to explore the essentials and the core and not mere forms and rituals. This helps in getting rid of superficial accumulations over the centuries. It may actually provide a greater sense of unity and purpose.

I, for one, have always proposed that geogrpahical identities are only a part and not the determining component of national identity. A "nation" can survive and ultimately survive only in a people regardless of where they are situated. So if things go wrong in the supposed homeland, the flame is still kept alive and there is hope for revival and recapture of homeland one day again.

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 09 Jan 2011 04:10

brihaspati wrote: I, for one, have always proposed that geogrpahical identities are only a part and not the determining component of national identity. A "nation" can survive and ultimately survive only in a people regardless of where they are situated. So if things go wrong in the supposed homeland, the flame is still kept alive and there is hope for revival and recapture of homeland one day again.

I would not ascribe "wishful thinking" to what you say. However, only one example (Israel) does not prove or disprove the possibilities. Probably, Israel is the way forward and a positive conviction like Israel needs to be ingrained.

A resurgence has to start in the "homeland" itself. No amount outside nudging will help if the "homeland" morphs itself into something else or never becomes "ready" - INA experiment (not saying it was a failure in any sense!!!). The Incas and Aztecs are examples to watch out for.