The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 08 Apr 2011 06:18

^^^ What is the Takleef with Hazare's methods. There are plenty of precedents of Civil Society activists participating in the drafting of laws. All Anna is asking for is representation on the committee.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 08 Apr 2011 06:21

^^^
I am watching Hazare for several years. I honestly believe that he is not a person with agendas and vested interests. He belongs to old school Gandhian ways and he sticks to his principles and porbably he will die in that mould. A great person and I respect him. However, being Gandhian means being a socialist of that era. The "Left" of India and agenda/vested interest based leftists all consider themselves as socialists and they easily package themselves into Anna Hazare mould. This is where the sabotage starts.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 08 Apr 2011 06:39

Taking a step back and looking at this philosophically:

[1] It is clear that the political class (including the Legislature and the Executive which is drawn from the Legislature) does not want to act against the Neta-Babu-Judiciary nexus.

[2] The use of EVMs is under a cloud and as of now there is a committee looking into the possibility of a paper trail. So let us not take it for granted that our democracy is functional.

[3] Given the situation in [1], there is need for an independent body which can investigate and prosecute on the basis of complaints from the public, and also suo-moto.

[4] This body will need to have the power of summoning witnesses, taking testimony under oath, requiring the production of documents, search, seizure, and prosecution. All these powers already exist with the political class, in the form of the police and parliamentary committees. In fact the Jan Lok Pal bill does not contemplate the power of custodial interrogation, which the Executive enjoys through the police.

[5] I would say that the term "mal-administration" needs to be properly defined. For example, the Lok Pal should be able to act against individuals like Prithviraj Chauhan, who were responsible for bungling in the case of the appointment of the tainted CVC Thomas. But the Lok Pal should not be able to take over normal governance.

[6] Also, the Lok Pal should not have the power to modify contracts or blacklist firms. However, if the Lok Pal feels that such steps should be taken, then it should be free to argue for the same in a fast-track Court.

[7] The appointment of the Lok Pal members is an important issue. Direct election should be considered (however EVMs should not be used).

-----------------------------------------------

Be that as it may, I think the need of the hour is to support the reasonable demand that Hazare & his supporters should have a voice on the drafting committee. Other details can be worked out later.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 08 Apr 2011 07:26

Can someone define "civil society" please? I have seen this term thrown about left & right with the assumption that everyone knows what it means. I dont - the definition in the internet is too broad and vague to be meaningful. The term "seems" to convey the impression that it refers to something "civil" and something that represents "society". I believe it is neither.

When people fail to define terms, there are several reasons for it - one of which is to intentionally leave something undefined, so that it can mean different things to different people. Plus it is impossible to attack an idea (or ideology) that is left undefined.

I suspect "civil society" is a euphemism for a conglomeration of left-based organizations, anti-establishment types and NGOs.

partha · Post by **partha** » 08 Apr 2011 07:30

B Raman has a good blog post about the issue. Read points 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

AN ANTI-CORRUPTION AYATOLLAH

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 08 Apr 2011 07:42

It seems that babus of PMO has success in breaking the ice with Anna Hazare team. If they succeed the entire briagade will say corruption is gone as PM is accepting their stance. PM can say we solved the riddle of corruption. The only thing remaining is to solve communalism will be the next slogal. All iz well!!

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 08 Apr 2011 07:48

ShyamSP wrote:
Chandragupta wrote:Arnab Goswami on TimesNow making an emotionally charged appeal to 'trust' Anna Hazare and not to fall for the propaganda that Delhi's 'cocktail circuit' is dishing out against the Anna. "How can they say those things about a 73 year old?!"

All the formerly Con-Chamcha media suddenly going all pro-Anna & anti-Government. Daal me kuch kaala hai bhaiyya.

It is duality of being in ruling and opposition that Congress is playing since it got power.

ShyamSP garu, you may have got it right based on the way PMO is negotiating.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 08 Apr 2011 08:05

The NGO types are now expressing discomfort with Anna Hazare:

Anna Hazare's fast: Uneasiness within civil society growing
TNN | Apr 8, 2011, 01.55am IST

NEW DELHI: After the reservations expressed by Aruna Roy and Harsh Mander, it was the turn of Medha Patkar and Sandeep Pandey on Thursday to give further evidence of uneasiness within civil society over the motley coalition of activists backing Anna Hazare's campaign for Jan Lokpal.

In a statement issued on behalf of the National Alliance of People's Movements (NAPM), Patkar and Pandey, both Magsaysay award winners, struck a note of caution: "In this fight against corruption, we have to choose our allies with care and take those along who have the moral authority to stand with the masses and have struggled for peace, justice and democracy rather than pushing for a communal, casteist, patriarchal and divisive agenda and facilitated ecological corruption."

NAPM did not however name the groups that should not in its opinion, have been allowed to share the anti-corruption platform with Hazare at Jantar Mantar.

While extending solidarity to Hazare in his fast unto death, NAPM said that the lesson from the widespread rejection of the official anti-corruption Bill was that the legislative process in general had to be much more democratic and that nation-wide consultations should be held for important Bills such as those related to land acquisition and unique identity numbers.

"A check on the elected government is what we need but the inclusion of private companies acting in the name of larger public purpose within the fold of accountability and transparency has to be ensured too," NAPM said.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... ?prtpage=1

I would say that it is a good sign if the shady NGO types are distancing themselves.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 08 Apr 2011 08:07

Prem Kumar wrote:Can someone define "civil society" please? I have seen this term thrown about left & right with the assumption that everyone knows what it means. I dont - the definition in the internet is too broad and vague to be meaningful. The term "seems" to convey the impression that it refers to something "civil" and something that represents "society". I believe it is neither.

When people fail to define terms, there are several reasons for it - one of which is to intentionally leave something undefined, so that it can mean different things to different people. Plus it is impossible to attack an idea (or ideology) that is left undefined.

I suspect "civil society" is a euphemism for a conglomeration of left-based organizations, anti-establishment types and NGOs.

Typically the holier than thou, leftist, uber-secularists have taken pride in calling themselves "civil society". They are acutely uncomfortable with yielding that space to Anna Hazare.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Apr 2011 08:50

http://www.hindu.com/2011/04/08/stories ... 491600.htm India is now a laughing stock in the comity of nations. Right-thinking people, drawing inspiration from Anna Hazare, can definitely bring about a turnaround. We owe this to this country's future generations.

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 08 Apr 2011 09:20

Those in Hyd do join us at Indira Park today.

Youth for Better India (YBI) is organizing a continuation event in the form of a relay fast from Friday onwards in support of Anna Hazare’s fight for Jan Lokpal Bill. The movement has reached a tipping point now and as responsible Indians, every one of us must play our due role at this crucial juncture.

Venue: Dharna Chowk, Indira Park

Date: 8 th April, 2011 onwards

Time: 9 AM onwards

Regards,

Youth For Better India.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 08 Apr 2011 09:32

SaiK:

You often make sweeping statements, like "India is now a laughing stock in the comity of nations", with little rational or justification.

Regardless of how they get into power, all ruling systems tend to converge towards an Oligarchy. In the new economically competitive India, the new oligarchy is led by the powerful industrialist-politician combo. There is very little in terms of checks and balances in the system to restrain these oligarchs, since a majority of our politicians are equal opportunity looters. Some fear of accountability is good to have. At least in the short term I do not fear the Lok-Pal overstepping their authority.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 08 Apr 2011 09:50

Another sign:

The National Advisory Council (NAC) Working Group on Transparency and Accountability, headed by Aruna Roy, has strong reservations about several provisions of the Jan Lokpal Bill that is being pushed by another group of activists outside the NAC.

The NAC Working Group is already seized of the Lokpal Bill, and the Council and what appears to be its shadow council — the joint committee — are now set to come out with two different drafts of the legislation.

Several civil rights champions told The Indian Express that they had stayed away from Hazare’s fast because it had been “hijacked” by activists like Arvind Kejriwal, who had met yoga guru Baba Ramdev at least twice in the past few weeks to discuss the proposed law.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/upa-p ... ot/773284/

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 08 Apr 2011 10:14

Let me put a chanikian spin to all this...My own CT so pls stay with me on this...

MMS realised late in the day that he is just a Kathputli despite the fact that he won National election for INC in 2009. During UPA-1, he too believed that he was PM thanks to Madam ji only and he had no support across political spectrum or among Mango-Indians. but then came Nuclear bill and he rammed it down the throat of all who disagreed even to the extent of getting Left kicked out of the Govt. Sooner 2009 came and most of us were expecting congress to perform badly especially due to 26/11 but surprise, MMS wins the election and performs exceeds all expectations and thats where the story gets murkier.
MMS realized that he just cound not work with Raja's and Pawar's and Gills's and Mamta's of the day but he was helpless to stop the looting of the country and any resistance from his side would have resulted in his being eased out bruskly and replaced by more pliant person. He was totally helpless.
So MMS lets all these scams come to the surface maybe passing on the info from PMO secretly. He even plans for someone with moral authority like Hazare to forces Govts hand and pass the Lokpal bill.
Once Lokpal bill is passed with more ppowers, MMS will make sure that all these fixers and looters are hanged high thru constructional means without letting the cases hang in courts till thy Kingdom come.
Not for nothing Anna Hazare suddenly becomes hero with so much of footage and following. Doesn't make any sense unless someone is pulling the strings.

Result: Govt is totally exposed, DMK and NCP leaders probably are the corruptest leaders in the world, Mamta probably will be gone to Bengal in few weeks for good and Left loses its power, Artist and his family will be handled by "Revolutionary Leader" and SG/RG will never be able to claim high moral ground. Yes MMS sacrificed his noble name and prestige to fix these fixers for good.

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 08 Apr 2011 10:36

We are now in the classic third stage of a color revolution. As was mentioned in the HAF a few weeks ago the stages of the color revolution are as follows
1. Demand by the opposition and classic government underresponse.
2. Compromise of some sort from the govt agreeing to some demands from the opposition
3. Sooner or later the opposition wants to force the issue and then up the ante, either through force or otherwise. We are at this stage now. Anna Hazare has give a call for Jail bharo
4. There is now a fight to retain legitimacy. Either of the govt or opposition wins this round. Question now is what will happen at this stage. Will the govt capitulate, like it did in Egypt or Tunisia or will it fight back like in Burma and China (Tiananmen square). There is one fundamental difference though between all the above countries and India. In India the govt is a legitimate representative of the people and has the moral right and obligation to do whatever is necessary to maintain the Indian union

On a side note, the people around me (mango abduls) who seem to be the most vociferous in the anti corruption protests are those who
a. filled in bogus house rent receipts to their company bahadurs
b. filled in bogus LTC claims
c. filled in padded medical expense claims.
In short those who scammed to the best of their available opportunities.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 08 Apr 2011 11:10

Good point Sugriva..
Most of the regular followers are DCH brigade with no idea about pros and cons of what is happening and are inspired by news coming out of Tunisia/Egypyt/ME etc.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 08 Apr 2011 12:08

what is the guarantee that the Lokpal bill to be introduced is not weakened in its core by introducing clauses that opens an escape channel and what is the guarantee that the lokpal will be an honest person like the CAG chief ?

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 08 Apr 2011 12:22

Unfortunately everything has a escape clause. End of the day unless the population generally doesn't become honest with law to implement the honesty, There will always be risk of laws or people failing. There are anyways no guarantees in life.
TN Seshan wielded the danda of CEC and brought lot of ruffians and leaders in line. So more power to the Lokpal plus hoping that most of the people occupying the chair are decently honest should do the trick.
Anyways we are not going to see Scandinavian or Singaporean level of honesty atelast in our lifetime but current levels of corruption are mind boggling and we need some hard rain to make this dust settle.

We should have RTR for Lokpal though.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 08 Apr 2011 12:25

sugriva wrote:There is one fundamental difference though between all the above countries and India. In India the govt is a legitimate representative of the people and has the moral right and obligation to do whatever is necessary to maintain the Indian union

As per Dr Subramaniam Swamy, the outcome of 60-70 Lok Sabha seats was determined by EVM rigging. One cannot make such a sweeping claim that the Govt is legitimate. That the EVMs are riggable there is no doubt.

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 08 Apr 2011 12:31

Pranav wrote:As per Dr Subramaniam Swamy, the outcome of 60-70 Lok Sabha seats was determined by EVM rigging. One cannot make such a sweeping claim that the Govt is legitimate. That the EVMs are riggable there is no doubt.

If you take this to the realm of conspiracy theorizing then I have no counter to your argument. There is a difference between saying that an EVM can be rigged and saying that results in a particular constituency were altered with the help of rigged EVMs. If you have any non-conspiracy theory links that prove that political parties rigged elections using faulty EVM's then I am willing to listen.

Also the effect of this whole hoo-haa over Lokpal Bill seems to be to delegitimize electoral politics and parliamentary democracy. A selection of the few by the few cuts into the heart of the Indian republic. Moreover it gives power to question every govt decision and suo-moto start investigations into alleged corruption. In effect this creates a "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" and has the power to term anybody and everybody who stands in its path as blasphemous. Ultimately who benefits. Going by those who stand behind the Jan Lokpal bill today, I have my doubts. So is this a process really to cleanse this country of corruption or turn over the keys of this country those who are amenable to outside pressure.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 08 Apr 2011 12:39

Pranav wrote:
As per Dr Subramaniam Swamy, the outcome of 60-70 Lok Sabha seats was determined by EVM rigging. One cannot make such a sweeping claim that the Govt is legitimate. That the EVMs are riggable there is no doubt.

Please go through the EVM thread in the Tech forum. The general consensus among posters in BRF is that even though the EV Machines can be rigged in a trial, there is no evidence (empirical or otherwise) to prove that the machines were in a rigged state during the 2009 elections.

That the machines can be tampered with is common knowledge, every technology has flaws and loopholes.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 08 Apr 2011 12:42

sugriva wrote: If you take this to the realm of conspiracy theorizing then I have no counter to your argument. There is a difference between saying that an EVM can be rigged and saying that results in a particular constituency were altered with the help of rigged EVMs. If you have any non-conspiracy theory links that prove that political parties rigged elections using faulty EVM's then I am willing to listen.

I am claiming that EVMs are riggable. I am also claiming that our political class would have no moral qualms in rigging. As regards riggability of EVMs, there is a big thread in Tech and Economy forum with plenty of links and information.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 08 Apr 2011 12:44

Klaus wrote: That the machines can be tampered with is common knowledge, every technology has flaws and loopholes.

One cannot prove that the EVMs were not rigged, and one cannot prove that the EVMs were rigged.

I agree with your statement that EVMs are riggable.

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 08 Apr 2011 14:26

Anupam Kher urges Tendulkar, Bachchan, SRK to support Hazare

This movement should tell us what really these big names can do for India. I hope they join this movement soon like Aamir did. Anything NRI's can do here to support?

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 08 Apr 2011 14:55

Why media and the whole of bollywood is supporting this movement, ? Something is cooking definitely. UPA wants to show anna hazare circus as true revolution ,while they will implement a weak rather flawed law system ... its not clear whether the contents of this lokpal bill will be of that standard as practiced in scandinavian countries, they will definitely include a big loop hole in the garb of revolution ...

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 08 Apr 2011 15:21

Samay wrote:Why media and the whole of bollywood is supporting this movement, ? Something is cooking definitely. UPA wants to show anna hazare circus as true revolution ,while they will implement a weak rather flawed law system ... its not clear whether the contents of this lokpal bill will be of that standard as practiced in scandinavian countries, they will definitely include a big loop hole in the garb of revolution ...

That is what is intriguing. The media barons, hand in glove with the corrupt, are putting the fuel into this fire. Something is cooking for sure. A true anti-corruption people's movement would never have the support of the DDM, me thinks. Read what today's ToI headline says "Govt bows to janata mantra as Sonia too backs Anna’s crusade". Wait, Sonia = Govt and Govt =Sonia, then what game is she playing? Is the ground being prepared for MMS's resignation and clown prince accession?

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 08 Apr 2011 16:42

"Hazare, who is on a raised platform, has acquired many of the mannerisms of Mohandas Gandhi, including a thoughtful tilt of his head. Behind him are images of Gandhi and a very shapely Mother India.

People take turns to say things into a mike. One man says that the fact that Indian news channels were not allowed to carry footage of the cricket World Cup is further proof that foreign corporations are trying to control India. Poets have descended to read their poems, many of them impoverished. One of them sings, “You have planes and ships/We have no roads to walk on.” An announcer says, “In our fight against corruption, we specially thank the media for their support.” Everybody claps. Later, he requests the cameramen present not to fight among themselves.

One man comes up and screams, “We are not begging, we are asking for our right. Now raise your hands if you are not beggars.” Very few do. He looks unhappily at the crowd and says, “Lots of beggars here.”

The Anna Hazare Show

http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/ ... azare-show

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 08 Apr 2011 17:26

Using corruption platform the rights that they are asking might include:
(1) Stopping laying of freeways
(2) Stopping Free economic zones
(3) Stopping dam on Narmada that helps farmers
...
...

This is what exactly US, china and west wants. India has to slowdown. All these agents have handle on this bill.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Apr 2011 18:10

VikramS, one tiny correction.. though few of the aspects are arguable, and the fact quoting former CBI Director means I support indirectly his views, it would not make it my "sweeping statement" directly.

You are right in reading the fact that powerful rich always control the world anywhere on the planet, more so in desh. One has to relax and think at the powers who make these b@stards more powerful. It is the voters. All democracy has people power, and it is there wishes that leads to holes in the system.

Now, I do like the argument that checks and balances are out of sync, but it would be a mockery if WE only do fire fighting and don't think about the future at all.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 08 Apr 2011 18:14

Marten wrote:I do not believe Hazare one bit. He's been around on this circus for a while now, and has never managed to last out a protest against Shri Pawar. He has focused on exactly one "village", and people around will know there are several thousand villages where shram daan was done 20 years earlier... and many more are far more affluent that those living in Utopia.

Let's not fool ourselves - the man has been a Congress face-saving device, and I would not rule out an inside job where the sacrifice of a few Chief Ministers or state governments will keep the Central Govt. in place. After all, just the volume of defence contracts to be delivered in the next year are in excess of $120Bn!

Nana Patekar has done more for anti-corruption than Anna.

Did this 'people's movement' even have a build up? Or it just burst out of the scene just like that?

I am having a hard time understanding what the ****** is going on. I believe there are some very powerful forces behind this movement which may not necessarily be working for Indian interests. I think you may be right, but for the sake of this country though, I hope you are wrong.

Edit : Anna talking about Election reforms right now in his press conference, he spoke of having a NOTA option on the ballot. I wish he includes Right To Recall in his agenda too, Rahul Mehta ji should be in Delhi right now.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 08 Apr 2011 18:35

IPL is going to be a big distraction for Gandhian cause.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 08 Apr 2011 18:53

Prem Kumar wrote:Can someone define "civil society" please? I have seen this term thrown about left & right with the assumption that everyone knows what it means. I dont - the definition in the internet is too broad and vague to be meaningful. The term "seems" to convey the impression that it refers to something "civil" and something that represents "society". I believe it is neither.

...

I suspect "civil society" is a euphemism for a conglomeration of left-based organizations, anti-establishment types and NGOs.

I think "civil society" is meant to denote people who are willing to discuss solutions to social problems in a civil manner. Unfortunately, in India it consists today of mostly left-leaning individuals (I'd blame the exclusion on the leftists and to some extent the media). Unlike probably in US, where Ann Coulter is as much part of "civil society" as Al Gore.

My personal belief is that "Jan Lokpal" bill is "good thing" whether one is left-leaning, right-leaning or centrist. The Jan Lokpal bill may give extra-parliamentary powers to the institute, but there's hardly any political will being shown by the parliamentary system to self-cleanse.

I don't think they're anti-establishment, they're just fed up with the status quo. As news reports are citing, only a fifth of the people who are protesting actually know what's the "Jan Lokpal Bill", they are just using this as an avenue to air their feelings.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Apr 2011 18:54

wrong thread

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 08 Apr 2011 19:05

Marten wrote:I do not believe Hazare one bit. He's been around on this circus for a while now, and has never managed to last out a protest against Shri Pawar. He has focused on exactly one "village", and people around will know there are several thousand villages where shram daan was done 20 years earlier... and many more are far more affluent that those living in Utopia.

Let's not fool ourselves - the man has been a Congress face-saving device, and I would not rule out an inside job where the sacrifice of a few Chief Ministers or state governments will keep the Central Govt. in place. After all, just the volume of defence contracts to be delivered in the next year are in excess of $120Bn!

Nana Patekar has done more for anti-corruption than Anna.

Fully agree with you. The amount of publicity this "movement" has generated , can only be whipped up by the PR dept of a particular party. When you join the dots what emerges is well oiled machinery at work.
Frankly the only way you can make a difference in governance is either getting yourself elected democratically or the way the Long march did.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 08 Apr 2011 19:26

I wanted to bring this article into the picture here, for at the root of it this is not about the Lok Pal Bill, it is about an entire system. This article was done before the start of the Anna Hazare campaign, but will help us to understand, why there is mass support for this approach.

When constitutionalism fails

“I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.”

These words were spoken by Barry Goldwater when he was chosen as the Republican Party’s candidate for the 1964 United States presidential election. His view advocating “extremism in the defense of liberty” can be dismissed as too radical a dictum to be taken seriously in the realm of politics in constitutional, democratic republics. Indeed, self-described constitutionalists and concerned citizens alike decry extremism and agitational politics of any sort. Advocating this is a sure way to be branded a political untouchable by a section of the intelligentsia.

However, history tells us that there are times when constitutionalism and rule of law can fail in democratic republics too. Indeed, it is immoral not to use extremism to defend liberty when push comes to shove.

Economist and philosopher Milton Friedman wrote in his classic Capitalism and Freedom that economic freedom is a necessary but not sufficient condition for political freedom, which is defined as the absence of coercion of an individual by other individuals. In economic systems where the government is the only entity that can raise financial capital via taxes, and capital formation is concentrated in the hands of those wielding political power, it is easy for political freedom to be hijacked even in democratic republics.

India witnessed such a suppression of economic freedom in the decades following independence, and this made a mockery of our republic’s constitutionally-guaranteed political freedom. Bank nationalisation in 1969 cemented political control over the entire financial system. Opposition parties routinely had to compete with an incumbent government that not only had a sprawling, well-oiled and well-funded electioneering machinery in every nook and cranny of our vast geography to complement its stranglehold on capital formation, but also routinely used public institutions unconstitutionally and illegally, with impunity, to beat back political opposition. The use of All-India Radio, which had monopoly over the air waves, for political campaigning is but a small example.

But Indian politics remained “constitutional” through nearly three decades after independence until 1975, when an arrogant government led by the Congress party suspended democracy and imposed a state of Emergency, perturbed at the indictment of the prime minister by a court for election fraud and misuse of state institutions for electioneering. Ironically, constitutionalism by citizens and political opponents precipitated a high-handed, arguably unconstitutional action by the government.

Those whose solemn duty it was to protect the Constitution themselves became its principal abusers. When the great singer Kishore Kumar refused to perform at a public function at the behest of the government, his music was promptly outlawed—such was the attitude and temerity of those wielding political power.

Once the Emergency was lifted in 1977, Indian voters conclusively threw out the incumbent and installed a coalition government for the first time since independence. It was at this time that the idea that a non-Congress Union government can be formed took root. Economic liberalisation in 1991 marked the launch of competitive electoral politics, with the rise of several regional parties and a second national political force.

Today, after two bursts of economic reforms, there has been sufficient capital formation to ensure that situations that arose in earlier decades won’t arise again. Notably, the Atal Behari Vajpayee-led Bharatiya Janata Party coalition, as the first non-Congress government to complete a full term in office, can also credibly claim to be have been the most economically liberal. Though it rode into office on the back of a mass, mob-like agitation that could easily be characterised as unconstitutional and unlawful, the Bharatiya Janata Party used extremism in defense of liberty.

Their means may have been morally tenuous but served a far greater good. Taking a more cynical view, the non-Congress parties might have realised the necessity of kindling economic freedom to encourage capital formation for their own long-term sustenance, not just for the advancement of India’s citizens.

What happened in politics also happened in the business world. Starting in 1977, a petrol pump attendant named Dhirajlal Hirachand Ambani turned to India’s embryonic capital markets to fund the expansion of his business. Given that banks had been nationalised in 1969, he may have found it impossible to raise money from that avenue. Dhirubhai, as he came to be known, used ingenious accounting jugglery and financial engineering to raise cheap capital from the equity market and minimise taxes, sometimes very questionably.

As Arun Shourie, a minister in Mr Vajpayee’s cabinet, said, long after these (mis)deeds were done, by fearlessly bending and breaking the laws of the day, Dhirubhai showed how ridiculous they were in the first place and strengthened the case for economic reforms. Just as they had been abused in the political sphere, in this case the laws and institutions themselves were wrong and needed wholesale change.

There are examples even today. West Bengal has been governed by the same political party for over three decades—it is so entrenched that there is little distinction between the party and state machinery. The political opposition to such an incumbent has been bitterly and violently agitational, unlawful and unconstitutional, but history tells us there is no other way to challenge the sitting government in an environment with very limited economic freedom. Moreover, when the government itself flouts the rule of law, the Opposition can’t be expected to abide by it.

What remains to be seen is whether the current Opposition in West Bengal has recognised the importance of encouraging capital formation by standing for economic freedom, and whether it follows that philosophy to strengthen its long-term political prospects.

If laws and public institutions don’t keep pace with new ideas and are abused by those entrusted with upholding them, they risk being challenged by unconstitutional means. This should not be looked down upon even in a democratic republic.

Goldwater was quoting the great Roman statesman Cicero when he justified the use of extremism to defend liberty. Sometimes keeping the Republic means employing unconstitutional means, and extraordinary attacks on liberty can require extraordinary actions to defend it.

Rather than rejecting and turning up our noses at prior or current mass agitational politics which may also be unconstitutional and unlawful, we will be better off qualifying and tempering our view, keeping in mind the context of very limited economic freedom in India even today. Without economic freedom, political freedom enjoyed by the average Indian citizen is highly restricted. Therein lies the root cause of almost all unconstitutional agitation for political gain. In fact, when non-constitutional methods are used to enhance liberty and promote economic freedom, it strengthens the Republic.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 08 Apr 2011 19:44

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/upa-p ... ot/773284/

NAC Working Group member Harsh Mander sought to play down the differences between the ‘official’ and ‘unofficial’ activists. “Diversity of opinion in civil society is a good thing,” he said.

Mander, however, expressed reservations about the proposed joint committee to re-draft the Bill. “Civil society has to be consulted in drafting legislations, but they cannot themselves be making laws,” Mander told The Indian Express. “What should worry us is howsoever important and powerful this body (Lokpal) must be, it has to follow due process and cannot be without checks and balances.”

See the takleef here for the "official" activists. When they were writing bills, all these stuffs about "chivil society" not making laws wasnt on the cards.

There itch is now "non-official" activists are taking the share of what official activists think is their share.

Where is my bag of popcorn anyway

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 08 Apr 2011 19:49

Chinmayanand wrote:IPL is going to be a big distraction for Gandhian cause.

This tamashaa is no different from IPL.

I hope that this will spell the death knell for the Sonia's official activist coterie, NAC. Rest all is maya.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 08 Apr 2011 20:05

Chandragupta wrote:
Samay wrote:Why media and the whole of bollywood is supporting this movement, ? Something is cooking definitely. UPA wants to show anna hazare circus as true revolution ,while they will implement a weak rather flawed law system ... its not clear whether the contents of this lokpal bill will be of that standard as practiced in scandinavian countries, they will definitely include a big loop hole in the garb of revolution ...
That is what is intriguing. The media barons, hand in glove with the corrupt, are putting the fuel into this fire. Something is cooking for sure. A true anti-corruption people's movement would never have the support of the DDM, me thinks. Read what today's ToI headline says "Govt bows to janata mantra as Sonia too backs Anna’s crusade". Wait, Sonia = Govt and Govt =Sonia, then what game is she playing? Is the ground being prepared for MMS's resignation and clown prince accession?

In some sense they too are victims of corruption. They can't declare some sources of their incomes because they come from dubious sources. It is a vicious loop.

P.S: No sympathy for anyone. It is just a fact of life.

rsharma · Post by **rsharma** » 08 Apr 2011 21:46

Breaking Neuj from Hark Da Butt on Teetar-Bater:

BDUTT: Anna to break fast tomorrow morn say sources after a reported agreement on #lokpal bill. Shanti bhushan to co chair draft committee

So the Kaangress is suck-e-cess-fool in nipping the "EVIL" in the bud..

If Da Butt is proved right, it is indeed a shame..!!!

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 08 Apr 2011 21:55

>>"sugriva"

>>Also the effect of this whole hoo-haa over Lokpal Bill seems to be to delegitimize electoral politics and parliamentary democracy.

But, what about when the same has been done by "elected" members time and time again, making a complete mockery of what this constitution really is. Shall not go into details here, but I hope you realize that this constitution that we all swear by, was an inherited one from colonial rule and the evolution of it over time has been a mixed bag (I am being very kind). Before we rise to protect the "constitution" a question to answer is, is it worth it? Mind you, the constitutional machinery and due process is exactly what the government will hide behind to avoid real and lasting change.

>>A selection of the few by the few cuts into the heart of the Indian republic.

NAC, Sonia Gandhi - sound familiar? Our MP's and by extension parliament has been made impotent due to party whips, post 1987. Separation of powers between the executive and legislative are virtually non existent. Real power belongs to the one who controls the party. That person does not have to be even an MP!. What you allege above is exactly what we have today!

>>Moreover it gives power to question every govt decision and suo-moto start investigations into alleged corruption.

I will not defend the Anna Hazare proposals. They are a reaction to the utter contempt that society has for our dysfunctional constitution machinery. The least we can do is not blame the people who are bringing this to notice.

I can bet 90% of these supporters of Anna Hazare on the streets do not know the details of the Lok Pal Bill but that does not make them idiots or illegitimate.

If there is one issue where our so called youth power needs to show its strength then it is on the issue of corruption.

Trust me, the powers that be and the policy wonk types know what to do. But no one will move off their butts till their a** is on fire.

we need this fire! But our politicians may nip this in the bud, is my fear for they are masters at saving their own a**.