Bharat Rakshak

RamaY wrote: I loved the irony in you, a man who doesn't believe in the need of TN weapons, presenting a memento to Sri BK, who proclaims that india's 20KT arsenal is not sufficient and needs TN weapons. Such is the strategic community in Bharat I think

A frightening foreign military intelligence directorate (GRU) report circulating in the Kremlin states that over the past nearly 48 hours the vast intercontinental military tunnel complex constructed by the United States Air force over the past nearly 45 years was hit with two powerful nuclear explosions at its main terminuses in Colorado and Virginia used nearly exclusively by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).
According to this report, this unprecedented nuclear attack began on the evening of 22 August when one of the main air pressure relief tunnels for this CIA tunnel, located at MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa Florida, was forced open allowing millions of cubic feet of air to rush suddenly into the atmosphere. The unique sound of this event was captured by video during a baseball game being played at Tropicana Field near MacDill, though US officials blamed the “mystery noise” on a faulty sound system.
This GRU report, however, points out that Russian engineers are well acquainted with this unique sound as they work feverishly to prepare an additional 5,000 bomb shelters ordered by Prime Minister Putin this past spring to be completed by the end of 2012.
Russian engineers were, also, able to duplicate this unique sound this past March when they were called into the Ukraine to vent a number of deep underground tunnels from poison gas that had killed three people near Kiev and which was, likewise, captured by video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGgJlYhMPls&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgGFThlEeGE&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJaGOLL_41g&NR=1

Within a few hours of the venting of this vast tunnel complex, this report continues, a nuclear device was detonated at its western terminus located near Trinidad Colorado with the second blast occurring nearly 12 hours later at the eastern terminus near Culpeper Virginia, and both causing powerful earthquakes felt by tens of millions of Americans.
Unbeknownst to the vast majority of the American people is that the vast military tunnel network constructed since the early 1960’s under their country has cost an estimated $40 trillion and with the exception of this attack shows no sign of abating.
The only known photo of one of the massive US Air Force boring machines used to construct this vast tunnel complex was taken by Little Skull Mountain in Nevada in December 1982 and is similar in design to those used to construct the Chunnel between England and France.
Maps of these tunnels, and the underground bases associated with them, have been compiled over the years by many independent researchers along with lists of their probable locations.
The specific tunnel attacked by these nuclear devices, this GRU report says, was being used by the CIA during their moving of their headquarters and all of their assets out of their Langley Virginia location to their new base located in Denver Colorado that was begun in 2005 for reasons still not fully explained.
The GRU speculates that the timing of this attack in hitting the western terminus first, then the eastern one, was more than likely meant to “trap and destroy” whatever the CIA was currently moving through this tunnel from Langley to Denver.
Most interesting to note is that this attack comes nearly a decade to the day after the 11 September 2011 internal war between the CIA and the US military establishment that rained destruction upon America, and then the world, but whose final battle has yet to be fought, or won, by either side.
To what the final outcome of this titanic struggle will be it is not in our knowing, other than to note that when two powerful forces like these collide, and as they have done so many times in the past, the ultimate losers end up being the American people whose delight in total ignorance as to what is happening around them continues to astound the whole world. (The EU Times)

http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/International/25-Aug-2011/Russia-reports-Nuclear-explosions-hit-vast-US-military-tunnel-network

csharma wrote:shiv, essentially what BK is saying is what Arun_S was saying a while ago, isn't it? But I still don't understand why he caps the capability at 20Kt.

shiv wrote:

csharma wrote:shiv, essentially what BK is saying is what Arun_S was saying a while ago, isn't it? But I still don't understand why he caps the capability at 20Kt.

er it is the other way around. People quote Bharat Karnad - who has been in the loop before 1998, sits in on high levels meetings and is in touch with the highest ranking people in the land.

habal wrote:

A frightening foreign military intelligence directorate (GRU) report circulating in the Kremlin states that over the past nearly 48 hours the vast intercontinental military tunnel complex constructed by the United States Air force over the past nearly 45 years was hit with two powerful nuclear explosions at its main terminuses in Colorado and Virginia used nearly exclusively by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).
According to this report, this unprecedented nuclear attack began on the evening of 22 August when one of the main air pressure relief tunnels for this CIA tunnel, located at MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa Florida, was forced open allowing millions of cubic feet of air to rush suddenly into the atmosphere. The unique sound of this event was captured by video during a baseball game being played at Tropicana Field near MacDill, though US officials blamed the “mystery noise” on a faulty sound system.
This GRU report, however, points out that Russian engineers are well acquainted with this unique sound as they work feverishly to prepare an additional 5,000 bomb shelters ordered by Prime Minister Putin this past spring to be completed by the end of 2012.
Russian engineers were, also, able to duplicate this unique sound this past March when they were called into the Ukraine to vent a number of deep underground tunnels from poison gas that had killed three people near Kiev and which was, likewise, captured by video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGgJlYhMPls&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgGFThlEeGE&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJaGOLL_41g&NR=1

Within a few hours of the venting of this vast tunnel complex, this report continues, a nuclear device was detonated at its western terminus located near Trinidad Colorado with the second blast occurring nearly 12 hours later at the eastern terminus near Culpeper Virginia, and both causing powerful earthquakes felt by tens of millions of Americans.
Unbeknownst to the vast majority of the American people is that the vast military tunnel network constructed since the early 1960’s under their country has cost an estimated $40 trillion and with the exception of this attack shows no sign of abating.
The only known photo of one of the massive US Air Force boring machines used to construct this vast tunnel complex was taken by Little Skull Mountain in Nevada in December 1982 and is similar in design to those used to construct the Chunnel between England and France.
Maps of these tunnels, and the underground bases associated with them, have been compiled over the years by many independent researchers along with lists of their probable locations.
The specific tunnel attacked by these nuclear devices, this GRU report says, was being used by the CIA during their moving of their headquarters and all of their assets out of their Langley Virginia location to their new base located in Denver Colorado that was begun in 2005 for reasons still not fully explained.
The GRU speculates that the timing of this attack in hitting the western terminus first, then the eastern one, was more than likely meant to “trap and destroy” whatever the CIA was currently moving through this tunnel from Langley to Denver.
Most interesting to note is that this attack comes nearly a decade to the day after the 11 September 2011 internal war between the CIA and the US military establishment that rained destruction upon America, and then the world, but whose final battle has yet to be fought, or won, by either side.
To what the final outcome of this titanic struggle will be it is not in our knowing, other than to note that when two powerful forces like these collide, and as they have done so many times in the past, the ultimate losers end up being the American people whose delight in total ignorance as to what is happening around them continues to astound the whole world. (The EU Times)

Code: Select all

http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/International/25-Aug-2011/Russia-reports-Nuclear-explosions-hit-vast-US-military-tunnel-network

shiv wrote:
I did not want to present the memento until I heard him demand that India's missiles should have been pulled away from their current readiness against Pakistan. That changed my view about him. Bharat Karnad knows what he is talking about.

vera_k wrote:
There is a distinction between an energy program and a weapons program. The USA has shut down nuclear energy research due to NIMBY concerns after the three mile island accident, so it is extremely plausible that the Indian program that has been actively building power plants in the interim has pulled ahead.

At the same time, he does say that the Indian weapons program is more of a "cottage industry". By definition, anything produced by a cottage industry is expected to have trouble competing with more organised means of production.

Jarita wrote: Errr.. This sounds too much like a Pravda conspiracy theory and we know what they are like - remember the martians walking among us, the man who had a fir tree in his stomach and other such stories.

habal wrote:

Jarita wrote: Errr.. This sounds too much like a Pravda conspiracy theory and we know what they are like - remember the martians walking among us, the man who had a fir tree in his stomach and other such stories.

fwiw the attached youtube videos validate the timeline. First the videos in that baseball game and home video and then the same videos relating to russian trials.

sanjaykumar wrote:There is so much disinformation out of India that Karnad may be a canard.

No point in getting too excited

ramana wrote:3. What role do Mahabums play in this strategy?

A large yield weapon is needed to assure PRC of MAD. Current demonstrated yields could lead to mis-perception on their part as more delivery vehicles are needed and all this leads to expense.

4. What role can a Mahabum in the basement, and a chotubum in hand play in this strategy?

I am still thinking this one. If the one in basement needs to be demonstrated then deterrent is under pressure.

RamaY wrote:Kanson ji,

Thank you for the Air Marshal T. M. Asthana interview.

His interview confirms that there are weaponized tactical nukes of minimum yields, but doesn't talk about maximum yields.

RamaY wrote:The most interesting thing is his separation of TSPA and Jihadis and India's planned action against nuclear terror.


It is a joke that he thinks that IA and GoI will "inform" Pakistan and USA about India's action in the event of a JDAM. If it took ~5yrs to determine the saffron-roots of Sam-jhoota express bombs, one can only guess how long will it take for Sri PC's academy of jokers to determine the perpetrators of a JDAM and then Sri TMA's academy of doctors would prescribe the right medicine (chemotherapy Vs conventional medicine Vs Ayurveda) so GoI can communicate the patients, TSPA and USA, that it is the most suitable therapy and take their letters of consent before starting the treatment. Wah wah! Vande Mataram!

So India's nuke policy is not only NFU, it is also NU (Never to be used) given Sri TMA's understanding/preference that Indian response in the event of a nuclear strike need not be a nuke based.

Sri TMA's interview looks like a low-level engineer's understanding of corporate strategy. It talks about the details but not the intentions, capabilities and posture.

Then he talks about his preference. Why can't he just implement the nuke policy blindly, after all we are a democratic nation and IA is subordinate to GoI?

But my preference would be to use conventional force in retaliation. I think in nine out of ten cases, this should suffice. We should continue hitting them till they raise the white flag.

He wants to give the terrorists a chance to raise the white flag even after a JDAM strike on Indian soil. Does Bharat deserves nukes with this type of noble rishi-like generals at helm?

Another reality check on India's dhimmification is

When we go in, we should seek to convince Pakistan and the USA etc —unless you are sure you don’t care what they think. But that’s unlikely in India.

Mera Bharat Mahan!!!

When we go in, we should seek to convince Pakistan and the USA etc —unless you are sure you don’t care what they think. But that’s unlikely in India.

gakakkad wrote:Nice well informed post from Kanson . There is one thing I intend to clear here. There is a common misconception that countries the size of Pakistan can be wiped out completely. It would take close to 1200 1 MT warheads to do such a thing . The consequences of doing such a thing would be immense for the whole world . God knows what geological changes can occur after that. That for practical purpose is impossible .

The second thing is that it is highly unlikely that the entire arsenal of India can be wiped out in a first strike . There are several ways of decoying / hiding missiles .

RamaY wrote:

gakakkad wrote:Nice well informed post from Kanson . There is one thing I intend to clear here. There is a common misconception that countries the size of Pakistan can be wiped out completely. It would take close to 1200 1 MT warheads to do such a thing . The consequences of doing such a thing would be immense for the whole world . God knows what geological changes can occur after that. That for practical purpose is impossible .

The second thing is that it is highly unlikely that the entire arsenal of India can be wiped out in a first strike . There are several ways of decoying / hiding missiles .

We have seen this logic before. By this logic, nukes are no deterrent to begin with. The ignorant Japanese did not know that in 1945.

What is the purpose of Indian second strike -
1. If it survived the first strike (as it would take 3x1200 1MT bums and no one has such arsenal)
2. If it is known that the Indian second strike cannot destroy Pakistan.

Muppalla wrote:From my understanding:

There are two section in this maha dhaga discussion.
(2) There is a section who never wants to close any chance and who alway wants an incremental structure of improvement of the designs feels there should never be a stoppage of testing. BK, Chellaney and many jinoges of BRF belong to this group. Perceptionally if the 1998 H-Bomb is proven as Fizzle it is in their interest so that a new testing by a future jingo PM (NaMo ) will put their incremental design testing approch on the priority. From a threat perspective, they very well know that Chins are not going to take a chance using perceptions and they very well know that India's tests are not really fizzles.It is neither India's H-test a fizzle nor BK is wrong. Period. Jai ho BK and Jai Ho Arun_S

RamaY wrote:Fair point Kansonji.

I agree that audience analysis is required. While you focus on 'international community' as the intended audience, I think the real audience should be the terror outfits and their organizational/ideological supporters like TSPA, PRC, USA and KSA. Even then, my main concern is about the politicization of Indian response. But I am willing to accept what the Air Marshal says for now.

RamaY wrote:

When we go in, we should seek to convince Pakistan and the USA etc —unless you are sure you don’t care what they think. But that’s unlikely in India.

My read of that interview -

1. Gov/SFC already rehearsed such JDAM situation keeping everyone in loop.
2. The most probable response to a JDAM situation is conventional response.

3. That India cares more about what TSP/USA thinks than what its response should be. And the general thinks that is due to the political situation in India, based on above quote.

4. Given UPA2 witch-hunt maneuvers on related incidents, it is most likely that a JDAM situation will be rubbed as karmic-response for India.

On a positive note, I think what the general is saying is that India is prepared to take a JDAM attack to fight the war another day; shows our willingness to survive.

ramana wrote:Kanson, Where did I say there is a need for a mahabum. Please do take the time to read what I worte and you quoted. Addressing me as Sir doesn't take away from the fact that its your own perception and not a reply to my quote.

Further you are also mistaken on the matter of sub kt tests. Arun_S never said that. Just because he isn't here doesn't mean one can claim he said something.
Anyway we all know each other's stands and as time goes along kaal will show who is right for both cant be!

Philip wrote:Kanson,a "Credible" N-deterrent can only be achieved when we have the SSBNs with our second strike capability at sea!

Right now,if our land based missile locations and air bases where our N-warheads are stored are known to the enemy,they can be-most of them, taken out or rendered inoperational by a sudden first strike.We do not have an arrangement with China as we do woith Pak,where we have exchanged sites and locations of N-facilities which are supposed to be taboo and un-attackable.A massed missile attack from China which has hundreds of missiles ranged against us can decapitate the bulk of our land and air component of the deterrent.

As Ramanna said the key Q is what should be the size and composition of the Indian strategic deterrent.There are some clues.We plan to have between 5-6 SSBNs,which will carry at least 8 missiles (Western SSBNs have upto 16 missiles,Russians even upto 20 and PLAN subs with 12) with at least 3 MIRVs. The present Arihant (ATV-1) N-sub ,now serving as a "tech-demo" sub,in order to validate the capabilities and UW firing of missiles,could serve as an SSGN later on once the full-sized SSBNs are commissioned.In fact ATV-1 with 12 750KM range missiles using 4 silos,would perform the task of an SSGN equally well.Having just one basic design of N-sub for the IN of two different sizes (just as there are several versions of Amur and other subs) would be a cost-effective solution,as we do not have the luxury of designing and building sevral different types of N-subs as the Soviets and US did. 8X3X5 gives us 40 missiles with 120 warheads aboard 5 SSBNs.If this component makes up 1/3rd of our total number of warheads ,one could calculate that with a minimum of 120 missiles we could have 360 warheads .The questiuon is that with pak's number now according to US intel estimates to be about 100-120,and still growing rapidly,Pak alone would be able to achieve parity or even superiority,thus giving the PRC an overwhelming superiority in both numbers and size of warheads.Since the cost of an SSBN is exceptionally high,then the most cost-effective way in which we can augment our arsenal is to increase significantly the number of land-based mobile missiles and the number of aircraft .

Either way our task is cut out,also remembering that the ultimate goal is to develop a sub launched ICBM,which if there are no changes to the silo size aboard our SSBNs,will reduce the number of warheads that they can carry to just one per missile.

As for India's wider sense of insecurity about Chinese military power, I would still point to this speech, which contains one of the wisest arguments made by an Indian military thinker. It is pointless for New Delhi to engage in a direct military competition with China based on the narrow calculus of defence spending, or on sheer numbers of modern planes, ships and conventional weapons systems.

India's economy and defence budget is smaller, its other security challenges are many and of a different kind (terrorism, insurgency, separatism), and its human development needs should remain a major priority for New Delhi's stretched resources.

Instead, when it comes to defence, India needs to think asymmetrically. And, unpleasant as it sounds, the shortest cut to a stable security relationship between India and China may be a genuinely effective Indian nuclear deterrent — with submarine-launched second strike capabilities — unlike the old-fashioned and largely air-dropped arsenal India is currently said to possess.

Unless, of course, the limited range of Indian missiles means that India has to survey contested waters close to China's eastern periphery so that its nuclear-armed boats can one day patrol there. In which case, expect to see much more strife at sea between Asia's rising giants.

Rudradev wrote:BTW, one thing I'm reading a lot of in the Karnad thread, is that never mind if P-2 failed to establish it... if need be we can assemble and test a 200kT boosted fission device in under a month.

Yes. And when the riot starts and stones are breaking my windows, I can go into the kitchen, melt down a tubelight holder, attach a pipe fitting, insert one .303 slug that I found somewhere many years ago, and I will have an A-class ghoda ready to go. No worries, have curry. Hack-thoo.