Bharat Rakshak

An interesting comment heard about this poll:

>> .. poll is interesting ..

shows you what a tiny but vocal minority can stir up

Two useful links for radiation ..
MIT's Introduction to Radiation Health Effects

From xcd, a nice chart:http://xkcd.com/radiation/

Actually Amber G. my first response was because I was misled, I was then shown the error of my ways and am attempting to repent.

(Shiva had three eyes even before Kundikulam ... spare this thread from that third eye)

That's off colour in itself.

Yogi_G wrote:

(Shiva had three eyes even before Kundikulam ... spare this thread from that third eye)

That's off colour in itself.

Only because you colored it.

I voted No, We need all the power we can possibly get. I rather see the world turn into a pile of nuclear ash than my countrymen live in poverty another day.

We are going to have a power shortfall of just over 25,000 Mw this summer according to a report in TOI recently, we cannot afford to shun nuclear energy and besides it's not the nature of the fuel which is unsafe but its handling or rather mishandling. Fukushima disaster should could our perspective as we are in a very different situation from Japan.

Yogi_G, Thanks for pointing out, but the typo has been corrected, you can remove your post. Thanks.

Meanwhile, in US where, for the first time, new NPP build is also being challenged by us version of PMANE types..Court challenge by Southern Alliance for Clean Energy is rejected for this $14 billion dollar project.
VOGTLE CHALLENGE REJECTED; NRC DENIES ENVIRONMENTAL COALITION'S BID TO HALT EXPANSION

A coalition of nine environmental groups said Monday afternoon that a defeat at the Nuclear Regulatory Commission earlier in the day would be only a temporary setback in its legal fight to halt construction of the nation's first commercial reactors in three decades.
The coalition, led by the Southern Alliance for Clean Energy, is challenging the NRC licenses to build and operate two reactors at Plant Vogtle near Waynesboro, Ga. It has asked the NRC to stop work at the $14 billion project....

Coalition members say the March 2011 earthquake and tsunami that crippled four commercial reactors in Fukushima, Japan, shows that Vogtle is more dangerous to people and the environment than was originally understood.
"We think that the commission really should have acted more prudently in light of Fukushima," said Arjun Makhijani, the president of the Institute for Energy and Environmental Research.

Interesting to hear Arjun Makhijani's involvement here as well as in Kudankulam .

BTW, (No I am not making it up), Just like 1,400,000 radiation deaths propaganda (by few folks even in Brf).. there have been stories published (and debunked) of 14,000 deaths in US due to radiation unleashed by Fukushima in PA's water .... and just like 3.5 people in Brf, there were some people in US to believe in it.

Arun Menon wrote:I voted No, We need all the power we can possibly get. I rather see the world turn into a pile of nuclear ash than my countrymen live in poverty another day.

Thanks, I understand what you said, but to add I don't think there is any such choice. Choice is more like between trusting in स्वयं प्रज्ञा (common sense) or letting our countrymen be fooled by the likes of Busbys, Udaykumars and Zaid Hamids. Seriously, from Bhabha to Bethe (I am fortunate enough to have met both), I have not met a single sane expert , who thinks that NPP will turn the world in a pile of nuclear ash.

Think for a moment...

India has about a THOUSAND "reactor" YEARs experience with nuclear reactor technology with ZERO deaths or any significant implications. (If you add US, France etc.. world has over 10 thousand years of safe reactor years operation. Despite all the noise made by usual suspects would you trust your own common sense or scare tactics of trouble makers... of all the endless hullagulla about 1,400,000 deaths due to radiation in Fukushima, the count is stil zero.

Would you trust calculations of a Bhabha or people who spend their life for such a cause, or trust silly 'back of the envelop calculations , (calculations that can't even use proper units ) from those who do nothing more than throw insults on people like Bhabha, and spend their time mocking "farticle fyzicysts" (Copy rightChaanakya - see link ) or accuse me of being a "sidekick " who is on foreign paycheck .

(Note to admins, yes, I have reported these to you, Amit has objected about them in public, yet those posts are still there):

TheoF wrote:I'm not sure said sidekick is Indian citizen. Maybe Indian origin person advocating for foreign paycheck.

While in today's news, there are some upbeat articles (for example in WP about new solar plant - see solar thread).. NY times (who generally mocked India's nuclear ambitions, and sided with antinuclear crowd) has this interesting article which is related:
India Struggles to Deliver Enough Electricity for Growth

India has long struggled to provide enough electricity to light its homes and power its industry around the clock. In recent years, the government and private sector sought to change that by building scores of new power plants.

But that campaign is now running into difficulties because the country cannot get enough fuel — principally coal — to run the plants. Clumsy policies, poor management and environmental concerns have hampered the country’s efforts to dig up fuel fast enough to keep up with its growing need for power.

<snip> ..
The slowdown is palpable at Sowmya Industries, ...

The company, located outside this city on the southeast coast of India, is struggling with several issues, including a 20 percent increase in the price of raw materials and falling orders. But Sowmya’s manager, R. Narasimha Murthy, said the lack of reliable power was an even bigger problem. His company loses three hours of power every evening. And all day on Wednesdays and Saturdays — euphemistically called “power holidays” — it receives only enough electricity to turn on the lights but not enough to use its large metal-cutting machines.

“It’s very frustrating,” said Mr. Murthy. “Power is a basic need. Everything is dependent on power.”

It was not supposed to be this way....
<snip> (Please read the whole article)

But still the question remains - Why this over the top fascination for nuclear power and it becoming an issue of H&D. If people who are going to live in the vicinity of NPP, they will have concerns, you can't just brush them aside. I am sure I will have concerns and knowing the track record of GoI, you can bet your last penny that they will leave you in lurch when $hit hots the fan (for reference check Bhopal disaster).
So why should I sacrifice my future and family for some vague concept like "save the earth and not burn coal" or "world turn into a pile of nuclear ash than my countrymen live in poverty".
Nope, When it comes to an idea being sold by Government, they can't be trusted so easily. I don't think we are that short on power or else why would we be offering to sell 5000MW of power to Pakistan.
Why is there no investment in R&D for alternate sources of Power like solar power, wind power, tidal waves etc.
So my vote still remains YES.

That argument is lame. What if the folks living adjacent to coal fired plants put up the same argument and seek to shut down those plants. Are we all going to have candle light dinners every night?

From what I learnt from gurus here, you don't bring renewables (I limit that to solar and wind in this case) into nuke discussion because they serve diff purposes. I may also have done this earlier but realize it.
For base load the right compare is coal vs nuke. That is it. Alternate power sources can address the variable load and nuke folks don't necessarily object to it.

Coal suffers from much of the same radiation risks (in fact more)
Coal suffers just as availability crunch
Coal suffers from more price risk than nuclear fuel because of the quantities needed
Coal is old tech and there are hardly any adjacencies- nuke is cutting edge and fortunately we are a major player. We can be global leader to supply this tech.

Planners might have weighed in more on coal for the current plans but who is to say those plans will not change if disruptive tech evolves that warrants major strategy shift or even the concerns around nuclear fuel are eliminated altogether. BTW, by the same planner HAVE accounted for nuke power too and KNPP was part of that plan. So, essentially the argument of THIS vs THAT arises only due to FUK-D and the agitation by the fifth column under the disguise of safety concerns.

FUK-D is the only event for us to cause a pause, assess/evaluate risks, take corrective actions if needed etc. Having done all that and knowing that there are NOOOOOO casualties yet, time to get back on track and with FULL SPEEEED.

My vote is certainly “NO” for this survey but I have not voted yet just to reinforce impressions of some

One of my relative while riding with me when we were going around giving marriage invitation told me sun is going to die because of the solar energy thing ....he said people were draining power of it in the name of solar energy ....had to educate him what solar energy was

krishnan wrote:One of my relative while riding with me when we were going around giving marriage invitation told me sun is going to die because of the solar energy thing ....he said people were draining power of it in the name of solar energy ....had to educate him what solar energy was

Reminds me of a scene from the movie Shool: Setting is Bihar assembly where a MLA opposing a Hydro electric power plant planned near a waterfalls, roars by thumping his fist over the desk - "if you take out electricity from water in the falls, what will people drink?"

partha wrote:

krishnan wrote:One of my relative while riding with me when we were going around giving marriage invitation told me sun is going to die because of the solar energy thing ....he said people were draining power of it in the name of solar energy ....had to educate him what solar energy was

Reminds me of a scene from the movie Shool: Setting is Bihar assembly where a MLA opposing a Hydro electric power plant planned near a waterfalls, roars by thumping his fist over the desk - "if you take out electricity from water in the falls, what will people drink?"

Sad, does any one know that the Sun has since suffered from a meltdown due to all the adverse publicity on renewables.

Must consider its feelings I say.

partha wrote:

krishnan wrote:One of my relative while riding with me when we were going around giving marriage invitation told me sun is going to die because of the solar energy thing ....he said people were draining power of it in the name of solar energy ....had to educate him what solar energy was

Reminds me of a scene from the movie Shool: Setting is Bihar assembly where a MLA opposing a Hydro electric power plant planned near a waterfalls, roars by thumping his fist over the desk - "if you take out electricity from water in the falls, what will people drink?"

Unfortunately, this is not that unusual and has serious consequences. Ignorance (and false rumors) about polio vaccine is one example. (My father used to tell me similar silly (but with tragic consequences) stories about small pox vaccines and hiding children from evil "teeka waalas" (in 1940's many people in villages were scared of vaccines).

There are/have_been stories about Fukushima Iodine in US (Pennsylvania) water , or in milk on US west cost causing thousands (or more) deaths. Even BRF had tons of stories (see Chaankaya's posts quoting Busby types again and again) about
radiation leaking into ocean, milk, food which has caused million+ deaths... never mind that, as I have pointed out many times, typical foods like bananas already have radioactivity....and typical radiation due to a NPP is something like eating one banana per year..

Think for a minute ... Radiation due to a single dental x-ray is equivalent to about 50 years living near that Kudankulam NPP.. (To be clear, I meant, additional radiation given by that plant in 50 years above normal back-ground radiation - Typically one receives about 30,000 times the radiation emitted by a NPP just due to background radiation - Again think about this for a minute before getting fooled by all the noise about "meltdown" and what not..)...

For reference: (Typical Values): bed = eating one banana ..

Equivalent full body radiation due to living near a NPP for a year = 1 banana
(Living near a coal plant is worse - but it is still is insignificant)

Background radiation (near KNPP) for a year = about 30,000 beds .
Living in Rastrapati Bhavan ( Due to red stones etc or a granite house) for a year = about 50,000 beds
Flying from New Delhi to Mumbai (One flight) = 400 bed
Just one Mammogram = 3000 bed
(Arm xray = about 10 bed)

Some typical values, just for perspective..

Satya_anveshi wrote:....
FUK-D is the only event for us to cause a pause, assess/evaluate risks, take corrective actions if needed etc. Having done all that and knowing that there are NOOOOOO casualties yet, time to get back on track and with FULL SPEEEED.

Yes, we have to pause, assess and learn from FUK-D (or other important events).
Technological Review India, published by MIT has a nice article .. worth reading

What We Learned About Nuclear Safety from Fukushima

Meanwhile, a picture from last year - India’s 25th nuclear power plant work started in Rajasthan .. (this was also post-Fukushima)

(SK Jain, Bhavini and S Banerjee and other senior officers on the occasion of first pour of concrete on July 18 at Rawatbhata in Rajasthan)

(Small tidbit - The concrete poured by pressing of a button from Shri Banerji is foundation of the site which would become the emergency core cooling system of the new reactor..)

Amber G. wrote: Think for a minute ... Radiation due to a single dental x-ray is equivalent to about 50 years living near that Kudankulam NPP.. (To be clear, I meant, additional radiation given by that plant in 50 years above normal back-ground radiation - Typically one receives about 30,000 times the radiation emitted by a NPP just due to background radiation - Again think about this for a minute before getting fooled by all the noise about "meltdown" and what not..)...

Eh? What do _YOU_ know Amber. I have seen people in Kerala coast with 3 eyes , 4 legs and 16 hands. In one extreme case ( yes, I call this extreme - the rest are "normal") I saw a fellow with a pant that had a zip in the front and back

^^
Your first comment drew quite a lot of attention even outside brf. What was really interesting that some people did not realize that you were being sarcastic...

Since Brf has a wide audience, and many followers in blogosphere it is important to know what others think of us..

Let me quote, just one remark, by a very respected observer (when a few others pointed out that the comment was sarcastic..):

...Regarding Neela's comment being sarcastic - boss I swear upon my late Grandmother, I didn't think he was being sarcastic. The standards at BRF are so low now I just don't know what to expect.

Meanwhile, I think even your creativity and sense of humor can not top this gem.. (kid you not, it is there in the other dhaga, penned by Sanku)..

Sanku wrote:It is now a full year since the multiple meltdowns happened at Fukushima, and a series of stories in Japan are covering the continuing horror of its impact. (Not funnily, the pain and struggle that Japanese are being freely mocked "did any one die?" by the high and mighty, however those who have to live with the disaster have a very different take (have people died? yes actually suicides have increased post the devastation, the only course available to those who lost everything including any hope of a life by the sad events.)

Have to be honest, have not seen anything that twisted even in madam Jalabi's logic...

Japan's earthquake, and Tsunami caused 15,000+ deaths and millions of people lost their home due to earthquake and Tsunami ...Death dud to radiation: ZERO ..

But shamefully and disgracefully peddling numbers like 1,400,000 deaths, these Busbys, and Zaids have no shame.

Suicides? .. How about those criminals (does not matter if they were alleged shiv sainiks or allegedly belonging foreign churches) while "screaming fukushima this and Fukushima that" caused real loss of life in India by there criminal violent acts. Busbys and their worshipers deserve al the contempt.

I, and most people, have respect if people have their own opinion, and one can accept the fact that people may have different opinion on what will best server India.. or how to make NPP safe.. or which kind of power is good for India ,,. But guys like those who will lie shamelessly, call for violence, and do nothing except throw gaalis on Indian GOI leaders, scientist, and its citizens are lowest of the low.

Every patriotic citizen should shun them.

Jai Hind.

At present I see the poll running 9% (Yes) - 91% (No) (118 total votes)

I do understand the choice given in the poll is binary. Satyaji did have a point in that sense that there may be people who may like to scrap or keep Kudanlulam but have may have different perspective on other NPP's. Also there is certainly a valid debate on the magnitude of nuclear in the mix vs a simple yes/no on nuclear in general.

But polls, by the very nature, are generally simplified. People could still pen their thoughts here.

The poll here is, after all said and done, which way you would cast your ballot,
Yes - means scrap Kudankulam (as PMANE is demanding) -
NO - Keep and finish so Kudankulam comes online.. (and trust our investment in NPP)

Amber G. wrote:Japan's earthquake, and Tsunami caused 15,000+ deaths and millions of people lost their home due to earthquake and Tsunami ...Death dud to radiation: ZERO ..

Regarding Japanese suicides post earthquake and tsunami, I haven't seen any numbers but I could well imagine the rate went up just after this traumatic event.

How can one separate alleged Japanese suicides from those caused by the nuclear power plant accident and those caused by the actual devastation caused by the earthquake/tsunami?

To claim that the suicides went up due to the incident at the Fukushima Dai'chi complex and not due to the overall devastation wrought by a black swan event shows, IMO, utter callousness in as much as it's just case of using one tragic statistics to further one's own pet peeve.

The fact remains that nobody died as a direct result of the radiation from the devastated nuclear power plant. No amount of fudging will alter this fact. I personally think Fukushima, tragic as the incident was, showed just how robust nuclear power plant designs are. Remember the reactors are cira 1970-1980s design, the so called Gen I reactors with no passive cooling facilities.

amit wrote:....
To claim that the suicides went up due to the incident at the Fukushima Dai'chi complex and not due to the overall devastation wrought by a black swan event shows, IMO, utter callousness in as much as it's just case of using one tragic statistics to further one's own pet peeve.

The fact remains that nobody died as a direct result of the radiation from the devastated nuclear power plant. No amount of fudging will alter this fact. I personally think Fukushima, tragic as the incident was, showed just how robust nuclear power plant designs are. Remember the reactors are cira 1970-1980s design, the so called Gen I reactors with no passive cooling facilities.

Agreed.
Also, I am sure you noticed, the callousness of Busby types ... some are charged with causing violence, Busby him self, (see my post here) has gotten into trouble for trying to peddle fraudulent 'radiation medicine" and make money from poor ignorant people.. ../disgust/

I will be interested in any recent poll taken in India.

Recent CBS poll in US: approve/disapprove building new NPP (43%-50%) down from (57%-34% in 2008)
(More than two in three Americans do say U.S. nuclear plants are generally safe, while just 22 percent say they are not safe)

http://www.ipsos-mori.com/ poll taken post Fukushima (In June ? 2011), IIRC was posted in brf. (US figures are different than recent CBS poll)

FWIW Here are interesting tidbits:
The most anti-nuclear nations in the poll (~ 80% against) Italy, Germany and Mexico.
Top pro-nuclear nations : India (61%), Poland (57%) and the US (52%)

(UK and Sweden around 50-50)

Fascinating part:

France ( 67% opposed), same with Australia
Japan - Surprisingly 42% remain supportive ... (Numbers vary with different polls /dates)

Kudankulam protesters to resume fast

The Kudankulam Nuclear Power Plant (KNPP) is in trouble again. Even as the authorities say that the 1000MW first unit of the reactor complex would be commissioned in 40 days, leaders of the peoples movement against nuclear energy (PMANE) allege that there were serious problems with the safety of the plant.

“We understand that there are serious problems in the reactor pressure vessel, and that there is a perennial water spring near the reactor building and that is why some 18 Russian scientists have been invited urgently,” PMANE leaders SP Udaya Kumar and Pushparayan said in a release.

The statement comes immediately after the visit of a team of specialists headed by Valery Limarenko, chief of Atomstroyexports, the Russian company constructing the reactors at Kudankulam, last Thursday.

Daniel Chellappa, official spokesman of the department of atomic energy, said there was nothing wrong with the reactor pressure vessel. But top bosses of the DAE, including Sreekumar Banerjee, are rushing to KNPP on Wednesday.

The PMANE leaders said they would resume the indefinite fast against the KNPP from May 1.

(Just wondering if anyone here is going for that fast

***

Also in the news:
Kudankulam nuclear plant to be commissioned in 40 days: Govt

Thanks every one for voting. The poll at present is 9%- 91% with 121 total votes.

Amber G. wrote:^^

Sanku wrote:It is now a full year since the multiple meltdowns happened at Fukushima, and a series of stories in Japan are covering the continuing horror of its impact. (Not funnily, the pain and struggle that Japanese are being freely mocked "did any one die?" by the high and mighty, however those who have to live with the disaster have a very different take (have people died? yes actually suicides have increased post the devastation, the only course available to those who lost everything including any hope of a life by the sad events.)

Have to be honest, have not seen anything that twisted even in madam Jalabi's logic...

Amberji , over time I have learnt to get past these baits. The trick is to look for keywords like "lost all hope" , "horror" , "tragic" placed close to near-scientific/authentic words like "side-effects", "second order effects" and thereafter the focus, which quickly shifts to the catastrophe, and why it should not be allowed.
[ When you use LaTeX to write an article, you know real estate is a premium and you do not go into useless words . You are terse and to the point ...you learn to spot B$ when reading such articles ]
There is no point in trying to engage because their focus is what is not known whereas yours is what is known and what we can infer. These approaches are always destined for a collision. They cannot commit to anything, believe that it is wrong and their only arguing stance is to use what is not known. Which is why the focus never is on the scientific part but on attacking persons and institutions of hiding information - thereby raising doubts.

I have , many moons ago, asked another poster in the Nuclear dhaaga if he could point out one convincing paper, scientific journal, article, even a symposium which discussed the effects of radiation and statistical evidence to back it up. I am still waiting for it.
I do not know if you remember this, but some 8 years back, there was an article about occurrence of thyroid cancer around IGCAR. The article mentioned that there were around 7-10 cases but was omitted I think was the occurrence in normal populations. Following this DAE instituted studies and found that there were no anomalies for the 35K people living in 3Km radius of the plant and the numbers were lesser than national averages. Then accusations started to fly that DAE had released only part of the full report and they were hiding stuff - dont know what happened after that.
The point I am trying to make is that I learnt to disengage directly and start having fun instead.

Neela wrote:The point I am trying to make is that I learnt to disengage directly and start having fun instead.

Neela ji,

I must say this is a great post. I only highlight the above because these are great words of wisdom!

Neela, Nice post.

Last day of the poll, for the record, two head lines:
Kudankulam protesters to resume fast

The Kudankulam Nuclear Power Plant (KNPP) is in trouble again. Even as the authorities say that the 1000MW first unit of the reactor complex would be commissioned in 40 days, leaders of the peoples movement against nuclear energy (PMANE) allege that there were serious problems with the safety of the plant.
<snip>

Reactors at Kudankulam best in the world: Russia

Seeking to allay fears, Russia on Wednesday said the reactors at the Kudankulam nuclear plant are the "best" in the world and expressed hope that the plant would start generating power soon.
<snip>

Poll present at: 8%-92% Total votes 123.

It was fun and knowledgewise I have grown wiser.
read thru' posts by everyone here.
My priniciples/ideas(or whatever you call) were not shaken by the so called npa's outbursts and drivel.
bad luck.
I am more than ever clearer that India needs more energy for its development.
Yes more noo clear also. no second thoughts.
Every source of energy has its pros and cons which have to be taken in right perspective and not rumour mongering.

Thanks Amber G and others.

Thanks everyone for taking part in this poll.
The poll has been useful.
Added later for the record, useful reference, I just saw:
http://www.barc.ernet.in/egreport.pdf
SAFETY OF KUDANKULAM     NUCLEAR     POWER       PLANT  
AND IMPACT OF ITS OPERATION ON THE SURROUNDINGS

I am Late but my vote is a resounding no, never.

Neela wrote: The point I am trying to make is that I learnt to disengage directly and start having fun instead.

Use ignore list. Seriously. The board lost many good people because they would not stop posting in response to provocations. You don't have to win every argument, even if you are right.

abhijitm wrote:I am Late but my vote is a resounding no, never.

Ballot box stuffiiiiiinnggg

Usually if i go to cast my vote in election, I try to search for any good independent candidate, so at least he could not loose his deposit - a kind of small service, you can say. Is it anything like that here?

Of course good independent candidate..

Kanson wrote:Usually if i go to cast my vote in election, I try to search for any good independent candidate, so at least he could not loose his deposit - a kind of small service, you can say. Is it anything like that here?

Of course good independent candidate..

Good independent nuclear candidate(s) ..hmm ..There was INDEC ( Independent Nuclear Disarmament Election Campaign) branch of CND (Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament).. didn't do too good in elections.. From wiki

CND has never allied itself to any political party and has never sought to form itself into an election campaigning body. However, several CND members and supporters have stood for election at various times as Independent Nuclear Disarmament candidates. The nearest CND has come to having an electoral arm was the Independent Nuclear Disarmament Election Campaign (INDEC) which stood candidates in a few local elections during the 1960s.