The Mughal Era in India

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jul 2012 11:13

compared to further up north, india had a climate much better suited to intensive farming and hence had a very large population and arable land in a smallish area vs the vast wide open grasslands and deserts that yielded nothing but control of a few trading oasis.
this manpower (farmers, infantry, artisans), crops and tax base certainly served the sultanate well in building powerful forces and attracting more "soldiers" and "courtiers" from up north. those that found favour were sent on with grants to the UP, bihar, WB, BD belt or further south to the deccan area.

todays chattisgarh, bundelkhand, chambal, jharkhand were forested or dry, hilly, unproductive in farming and formed a vast 'dark area' where Bhils, Bundelas and maratha clans roamed around among others. central control and monitoring was quite fitful...

a class of white skinned elite mussalman exists all over india and BD today. these are the remnants of the old muslim ruling admins and military commanders.

another branch could be whiteskins who migrated directly to the south court of the Hyd nizams and other sultanates via the sea route from west coast.

habal · Post by **habal** » 10 Jul 2012 11:22

'turks' are simply mongrel breed. Any mongrel breed originating in Central Asia or North Caucasus is given the generic name 'turk'. The ones primarily doing this social engineering are the anglo-american historians since everybody else including the 'turks' have zero interest in this topic. Now why are the anglos so interested in building up a 'turk' identity. It seems they have a personal interest in the propagation of this brand. What have they gained from promoting this brand ?

Similarly the mughals were also a mongrel race who were given the title of 'turks' by the anglo historians. Personally they may have some redeeming qualities but what insight we have into that era shows us that they were exceedingly cunning, shrewd and small-hearted so much so that they felt insecure even of their blood relatives and were jealous of them coming into any challenging positions of power. Their main battlefield successes came through sheer opportunism and ability to scale-up their assets at a short notice in order to surprise/deceive their adversary. They would also be assisted by hybrid-vigor typical of their mixed origins and certain skills adapted from the ancient mongol school of warfare in the central asian theatre, resultant ability to persist despite small setbacks. The main works of creativity and architecture comes when the mughal king surrounds his court with sycophants and it gave rise to a few flights of fancy like parks with decorated flowerbeds, fountains, tombs for wives, mothers and a few palaces here and there for the harem, . The symbols of peace were important to balance the internal torment in their psyche as a result of deep mistrust of family & courtiers. The whole reason why they surrounded their courts with clansmen or tribesmen was because they didn't begin to trust the natives of the newly occupied lands enough. But once Akbar changed that, it negated a significant character flaw and allowed them to drag their empire for a few more centuries.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 11:26

If Jahangir and Shahjana born to Rajput mothers, can still be called Mongrel or Mugal?

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 11:34

a class of white skinned elite mussalman exists all over india and BD today. these are the remnants of the old muslim ruling admins and military commanders.

They are hindu converts. Mostly lohana types. Lohana hindus are also white skinned, tall with elite looks and manners

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 11:42

The Kutchi lohanas and Bangladeshi elites looks like brothers

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 10 Jul 2012 11:44

habal - the turks themselves and many in central asia from my observations seem quite interested in and attached to, their turkish identity
btw, words like mongrel are quite insulting, i assume you mean to use it in that context

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 11:50

Gujarati Lohana and a Bangladeshi Elite

A Bangladeshi Elite, Gramin Bank wala

Gujarati Lohana Convert

habal · Post by **habal** » 10 Jul 2012 11:59

they are interested now, yes. Ofcourse now there's internet chatter too regarding turkic identity. This is due to global identity crises due to numerous wars with everybody searching their roots and kin. Mixed origins is what was being referred to.

mughal insecurities made them very vulnerable to british intrigues. So this combination was very pliable perhaps as compared to strict tribal based identities of other societies of those times. Or else it could be a cover up initiated to embellish the khazar identity or hide their true identity as per case. But it seems that there is a rubicon which once crossed, groups do not like to further associate themselves with turkic identity.

Wouldn't be really surprised if mughal identity gained prominence after Akbar.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jul 2012 12:25

jinnah and christpoher lee look more like blood(pun intended) brothers than the BD elite.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 10 Jul 2012 13:13

Murugan wrote:If Jahangir and Shahjana born to Rajput mothers, can still be called Mongrel or Mugal?

Well they behaved like Mongrel or Mughal. One of them killed a Sikh Guru I believe. The mother being Hindu(if that is true) had probably no influence on the child. We should not get into the trap that since the mother was hindu, they become half hindu emperors.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 10 Jul 2012 13:37

From the Baburnama (Babur-nama, Volume II, p. 574-75):

For Islam's sake, I wandered the wilds,
Prepared for war with pagans and Hindus,
Resolved myself to meet the martyr's death,
Thanks be to God ! A ghazi I became.

On a visit to Urwa (Near Gwalior):

Three sides of Urwa are solid rock, not the red rock of Blana but one paler in colour. On these sides people have cut out idol-statues, large and small, one large statue on the south side being perhaps 20 qari (yds.) high. These idols are shewn quite naked without covering for the privities. Along the sides of the two Urwa lakes 20 or 30 wells have been dug, with water from which useful vegetables {sabsl karliklar), flowers and trees are grown. Urwa is not a bad place ; it is shut in ; the idols are its defect; I, for my part, ordered them destroyed.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 13:46

rkirankr wrote:
Murugan wrote:If Jahangir and Shahjana born to Rajput mothers, can still be called Mongrel or Mugal?
Well they behaved like Mongrel or Mughal. One of them killed a Sikh Guru I believe. The mother being Hindu(if that is true) had probably no influence on the child. We should not get into the trap that since the mother was hindu, they become half hindu emperors.

rkirankr-ji my point was how one maintain purity of blood once borne to other distance distinct race without any connection.

And yes falling into such trap is not good. I thought Mullayam singh yadav will not kill Hind kar sevaks. Though he was a full hindu.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 10 Jul 2012 14:18

are we just opening up another muslim-bashing thread here or are we going to do some proper analysis on the mughal period?

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 10 Jul 2012 14:24

Any idea on the socio economic conditions of the people under Mughals as compared to other eras.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 14:30

Lalmohan wrote:are we just opening up another muslim-bashing thread here or are we going to do some proper analysis on the mughal period?

LM-ji pl consider the first question for proper analysis

-how one maintain purity of blood once borne to other distance distinct race without any connection.

How far a chagtai turk's progeny born to rajput females can be called mugal.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jul 2012 14:35

the statues must have been of jain tirthankars.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 10 Jul 2012 14:42

Yes, that's right. It was a Jain temple.
By the way, here's a link to a translation of the Babur-nama - http://www.farlang.com/diamonds/beverid ... a/page_001

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 10 Jul 2012 14:54

i dont see why the racial purity element is a factor here?
tracing ancestry to the great khan of the mongols ruling from karakorum and beijing was normal for almost all central asian kings and chiefs. the mongols happily produced progeny with the women of any of the lands they conquered, their genes are very widely spread and diluted

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 15:09

The question is about calling this a Rajput Mugal rule rather than Mugal Rule

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 10 Jul 2012 16:03

Murugan wrote: rkirankr-ji my point was how one maintain purity of blood once borne to other distance distinct race without any connection.
And yes falling into such trap is not good. I thought Mullayam singh yadav will not kill Hind kar sevaks. Though he was a full hindu.

Ok we cannot call the later Mughal Royals as purely muslim blooded. But it has been said already that their behavior proves they were not even 5 % Hindus by thought or action (except may be Dara Shikoh).
Not sure where we are getting to with this line of argument.

Murugan wrote:The question is about calling this a Rajput Mugal rule rather than Mugal Rule

By virtue of the mixing of blood? I refuted above from my end.
By other means ? Lets visit :
The Mughals did give prominent (immediately next to royal family) positions to Rajput Rajas.
They appointed them as Governors of large provinces on many occasions and Rajputs lead the combined armies on regular basis.
Yet at no instance we see any official power sharing pact between the two sides for any large land mass of north India.
Yet the Rajputs were often kept out of policy matters and didn't have a say in the ruling of every inch of land under Mughals.
Although I don't agree but if we have to still call it Mughal-Rajput rule, I'd say Rajputs were only the second/middle line of leaders in this setup and hence cannot be hyphenated as such with Mughals.

Regards,
Virendra

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 16:36

Virendra-ji

Though there may be or may not be any obvious agreement between Rajputs and Mugals, Independent actions of Rajput governors are telling different stories. i have posted in previous page - how rajput governor of bengal moved captial or planned war and admin strategy, or mansingh strategised and led war against Maha Rana Pratap, Ramsingh led battles against Lachit, the way Jaswant singh carried out his admin etc proves that Rajputs were just more than vassals

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 16:40

Todar Mal as a finance minister of AkbarTodar Mal succeeded Khwaja Malik I'timad Khan in 1560. Raja Todar Mal introduced standard weights and measures, a land survey and settlement system, revenue districts and officers. He can be thought of as one of first statisticians in India, and perhaps in the world. Many of the fundamental data collection schemes as practiced over the centuries in the Indian subcontinent and neighboring countries can be attributed to him.

Raja Todar Mal finance minister of Akbar introduced a new system of revenue known as zabt. He took a careful survey of crop yields and prices cultivated for a 10 year period 1570-1580. On this basis tax was fixed on each crop in cash. Each province was divided into revenue circles with its own rates of revenue and schedule on individual crops. This system was prevalent where the Mughal administration could survey the land and keep careful accounts. This system was not applicable in the provinces like Gujarat and Bengal. Todar Mal died in Lahore on 8 November 1589.[4]

The Kashi Vishwanath Temple was rebuilt in 1585 by Todar Mal.[5]

Initially known as Kunwar (prince), Man Singh received the title of Mirza Raja and the mansab (rank) of 5000 after the death of his father on December 10, 1589 from Akbar.[3] On August 26, 1605, Man Singh became a mansabdar of 7,000, i.e., a commander of 7,000 cavalry in the Mughal forces, which was the maximum command for anyone other than a son of the Mughal emperor and the guardian of Khusrau, the eldest son of Jahangir.[4] Akbar called him Farzand (son). He fought many important campaigns for Akbar. Kunwar Man Singh led the Mughal Army in the well-known battle of Haldighati fought in 1576 between the Mughal Empire and Maha Rana Pratap.[5]

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 16:47

How one will be allowed to keep flag

Again in 1585 CE, some Afghan tribes rose against the Mughal empire. The Yusufzai and "Mandar" tribes were the main ones among them. Akbar sent an army under Zain Khan, Hakim Abul Fateh and Raja Birbal to control these revolting tribes. However, they failed to control the revolting Afghans and Raja Birbal, friend of Akbar and one of his Navratnas was also killed in the battle with Afghans. Akbar then sent Raja Todar Mal to crush the revolt and called Raja Man Singh to help Todar Mal. Todarmal had some success in controlling the rebellious Afghan tribes, but the real source of the revolt was behind the Khyber Pass. It was hard to cross this pass which was dominated by Afghan "Kabailies". Man Singh was accompanied by "Rao Gopaldas" of Nindar in this expedition, who bravely made way for Mughal army in the pass. After crossing the pass Man Singh decisively defeated five major tribes of Afghans including Yusufzai and "Mandar" tribes. The flag of Amber was changed from "Katchanar" (green climber in white base) to "Pachranga" (five colored) to commemorate this victory. This flag continued in use until accession of Jaipur state in India. This permanently crushed the revolt and the area remained peaceful thereafter.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 16:59

Ram Singh

Ram Singh in Assam and the decree of 1669Since Shivaji had escaped from the midst of Ram Singh's camp, Aurangzeb's suspicion naturally fell on Ram Singh for the feat. Some Maratha Brahmins confessed under torture that Ram Singh had connived at Shivaji's escape to honor the oath taken by his father. Ram Singh's rank was reduced by 1000, his estates were taken away, and he was banished from the Mughal court. Nearly a year later the Kachwaha prince was permitted to enter the court and his estates were restored (March 1667).

Meanwhile, in the south, his father Jai Singh was also harshly punished for the failure of his Bijapur invasion——unlike the Muslim generals who had also failed but were always in Aurangzeb's favor. Weighed down by these losses and the removal of his son from an influential post, Raja Jai Singh breathed his last on August 18, 1667. Ram Singh became the next Raja of Amber (10 September) with Aurangzeb putting the tika (paint mark) on his forehead. (This was the last occasion that this ceremony, started by Akbar as a means of honoring the leading Hindu Rajas, was performed. Aurangzeb eventually stopped this ceremony as a Hindu practice in his Islamic state.)

Within a few months (on December 27, 1767), Raja Ram Singh was sent to Assam. In the Battle of Saraighat, at the head of a massive force, that was vastly superior to the Assam forces, Ram Singh pursued the Assam forces from the western boundary at Manas river to Guwahati where he laid siege. The Assam forces, under Lachit Borphukan, unable to match the Mughals on land, were able to win a decisive battle on the Brahmaputra river which led to a mughal loss. In fact, with the removal of the influential Jai Singh, Aurangzeb had decided not to appoint Rajputs to any administrative post——and the reason soon became clear.

With the leading Rajput chiefs away on military campaigns, Aurangzeb in 1669 ordered the provincial Muslim governors to enforce his decree to destroy newly-built temples and places of religious instruction of the "infidel" Hindus.

[edit] Ram Singh and the Rajput WarWhen in 1676 Ram Singh returned to Agra as commander of 5000, Aurangzeb was engrossed in the frontier wars with the Pashtun tribes. But on the petering out of that conflict a bigger storm arose, which was destined to overthrow the Mughal Empire. In 1679, taking advantage of Maharaja Jaswant Singh's death in Afghanistan, Aurangzeb occupied his Kingdom of Marwar and simultaneously imposed the jaziya tax on the non-Muslims on April 2, 1679. The earlier decree of 1669 on temple destruction was now openly enforced and extended into the Rajput territories like Marwar, Mewar, Shekhawati, Bundelkhand, and Malwa.

However an alliance of the Rajput clans, and the desertion of Aurangzeb's son Sultan Muhammad Akbar to the Rajputs and Marathas, completely altered the situation. The insurrection spread among the Bhatis, Hadas, Gaurs, and there was a danger that the Amber Kachwahas could join their subordinate clansmen the Shekhawats. So before leaving for the Deccan in 1681 Aurangzeb appointed Ram Singh and his clansmen to a military outpost in Afghanistan so that they couldn't influence events in Rajputana.

In any case Ram Singh did not have the influence among the Mughal nobility that the accomplished Jai Singh had always commanded. Any progress in his career had been marred by the machinations of the bigoted Aurangzeb, a Muslim fanatic, who had first punished him unjustly and then denied him the full resources to fight in Assam.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 17:03

Jai Singh

Accession and early careerAt the age of 10 Jai Singh I became the Raja of Amber and the head of the Kachwaha Rajputs. His military career spans the full reign of Shah Jahan and the first half of Aurangzeb's reign. Jai Singh's first step in his rise to greatness took place on the accession of Shah Jahan (1627)—taking advantage of this change of sovereigns, Jai Singh's commander in the Deccan, Khan Jahan Lodi rebelled along with his Afghan followers. But the Rajput prince brought away his own army to the north and then joined in the campaign that finally defeated the rebels.

For these valuable services Jai Singh was made a commander of 4000. In 1636 Shah Jahan organized a grand campaign against the southern sultanates in which Jai Singh played a leading part—later this same army was sent to campaign against the Gond kingdoms. For his part in these successful ventures Jai Singh was promoted to the rank of commander of 5000 and the district of Chatsu (in Ajmer) was added to his kingdom. By defeating the Meo robber tribes in the north of Amber, Jai Singh further increased the size of his ancestral kingdom. in 1641 he subdued the rebellion of Raja Jagat Singh Pathania of the hill-state of Mau-Paithan (Himachal Pradesh).

[edit] Central Asian campaignsIn 1638 the fort of Kandahar was surrendered by its Persian commander, Ali Mardan Khan, to Shah Jahan. The emperor's son Shuja, accompanied by Jai Singh, was sent to take delivery of this important fort. To overawe the Persian Shah from interfering in this task, Shah Jahan assembled a 50,000 strong army in Kabul. On this occasion Jai Singh received the unique title of Mirza Raja from Shah Jahan, which had earlier been given to his great-grandfather Raja Man Singh I of Amber by Emperor Akbar.

In 1647 Mirza Raja Jai Singh joined in Shah Jahan's invasion of Balkh and Badakshan in Central Asia. The conquest was easily achieved by the Mughals but the occupation of these poor regions could not be sustained—not one Mughal officer would agree to be posted permanently in that desolate land and away from the wealth and luxury of India, which was ironic since many of them had originated from these parts! This insane project thus ended in financial failure.

In 1649 another blow knocked down Mughal prestige—Kandahar was recovered by Shah Abbas II. In the ensuing Mughal-Safavid War the Mughals twice attempted to eject the Persians from Kandahar under the command of Prince Aurangzeb (in 1649 and 1652) —on both occasions Raja Jai Singh was present as an army commander, but the attempts failed due to the lack of adequate artillery and poor marksmanship of the Mughal gunners.

A third grand attempt was made in 1653 under the command of Shah Jahan's oldest and favorite son Dara Shikoh, a deadly rival of Aurangzeb, and again Jai Singh was sent with this army. Prince Dara was knowledgeable in spiritual matters and was refreshingly secular in his outlook, but these noble qualities were marred by his military incompetence and his flattering and foolish advisers. Dara was particularly harsh on officers that had taken part in the earlier campaigns under Aurangzeb and repeatedly taunted Jai Singh for those failures. But when his own campaign ended with the same result, the Mughals finally gave up all attempts to recover Kandahar.

Dara continued his hostility towards Jai Singh on return to Agra—no promotions or awards were given to the veteran general for skillfully covering the army's retreat. Instead Jaswant Singh of the rival Rathor clan was made commander of 6000 and received the superlative title of Maharaja.

Why this generational continuous Mugal Rajput Association. this cannot happen without some kind of understanding

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 18:00

Shahjahan and aurangzeb both were cruel.

Aurangzeb who kiled his own brothers and blinded and imprisonec his father did not do anything serious to ramsingh or jaswantsingh. what was the compulsion to keep the association going? Since rajput generals failed in all the three counts - not a little damage to arch enemies of mughal, aurangzeb must be furious but no action against rajput generals and governers.

What was quid pro quo? Or was there any

Or Rajputs of amber played smart to keep amber untochued by enemical invading forces from west and kept at bay sultanates from doing any mischief?

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 10 Jul 2012 18:51

Murugan wrote:Shahjahan and aurangzeb both were cruel.

Aurangzeb who kiled his own brothers and blinded and imprisonec his father did not do anything serious to ramsingh or jaswantsingh. what was the compulsion to keep the association going? Since rajput generals failed in all the three counts - not a little damage to arch enemies of mughal, aurangzeb must be furious but no action against rajput generals and governers.

What was quid pro quo? Or was there any

Or Rajputs of amber played smart to keep amber untochued by enemical invading forces from west and kept at bay sultanates from doing any mischief?

Probably these Rajputs never threatened his gaddi like his brothers. They were necessary tools for him to expand / defend his rule. JMT

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 10 Jul 2012 19:27

the habit of fratricide comes about as a direct decree of genghiz khan - that only the most able of the sons shall follow the father to the throne, and that this shall be an election of 'first amongst equals'.

this practice only survived two generations after genghiz khan in the mongol heartland - upto Kubiliai, and in the distant colonies it soon fell apart. each son thought it is birthright to suceed the father, and plenty of plotters helped each son to fight another. the natural conclusion was that the sons had to kill each other to ensure they got to the throne. every single central asian khanate followed this practice and the mughals imported it into their kingdom

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 19:59

Rkirankrji

Letting shivaji escape is no less than threatening gaddi.

These rajputs were succeding against western enemies but that was not true for internal campaigns against mughal's enemies.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 20:08

probably these Rajputs never threatened his gaddi like his brothers. They were necessary tools for him to expand / defend his rule. JMT

It is not him or his, it is about them and theirs. what necessary tools were maintained by these rajputs from akbar to auranzeb?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Jul 2012 20:15

Habal, Words like mongrel are demeaning and insulting. Please edit your post and do not use them in future. Thanks, ramana

Murugan, In patrilenial societies, its the father that gives the lineage of the sons. So Mughal fathers and Rajput mothers still are called Mughals.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 10 Jul 2012 20:18

ramana wrote: Murugan, In patrilenial societies, its the father that gives the lineage of the sons. So Mughal fathers and Rajput mothers still are called Mughals.

Concur with that. Infact, the Rajputs do not consider any such progenies of Mughal kings and Rajput queens as one of their own.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Jul 2012 20:25

They say 20K workers worked for building Taj Mahal.. and who were the architect is not clear. Also, there is a storyline all important workers got their hands chopped off! 500 years of story telling should not be that distant past when we compare to tell horror stories of rakshas days. So, why did we fear so much to tell against the mughals.

The only fear I can answer to ramana's original questions (bollywood projections), is that there is a feeling of fear of communal unrest even a small tip is enough.. so, we are allowing even negatives and constructed positiveness for the bollywood stampings. jmt.

the fear can't be erased unless we as a nation, include all religious people consider religion is just a way to peace, and not to fight like in the past, and every one has the right to practice whatever one wishes to do, without hurting or occupying other's real and virtual spaces.

again, it is hard for the memory, when people visits temple, even now sees remains of the past horrific invasions and stories. this is going to need a bigger strategy to avoid future communal problems. instead of solving problems, we are creating new ones like bollywood, ToIlet, etc. when people are willing to pay for the crap.. they will find ways to go in that direction.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Jul 2012 20:32

Murugan wrote:Shahjahan and aurangzeb both were cruel.

Aurangzeb who kiled his own brothers and blinded and imprisonec his father did not do anything serious to ramsingh or jaswantsingh. what was the compulsion to keep the association going? Since rajput generals failed in all the three counts - not a little damage to arch enemies of mughal, aurangzeb must be furious but no action against rajput generals and governers.

What was quid pro quo? Or was there any

Or Rajputs of amber played smart to keep amber untochued by enemical invading forces from west and kept at bay sultanates from doing any mischief?

- Firstly its a Turkish custom to execute all eligigble male siblings to prevent any rallying point for dethroning the ruler. (Suleiman the Magnifcient got all his brothers killed except one who was shipped of to Baghdad and sold into slavery. He later ended up in India and founded the Bijapur Sultanate.) Lame or blinded siblings were in-eligible to rule and thus spared. So we often hear of blinding as a way to keep a rival alive. Eg. Humayun sentences his brother to be blinded. Sending of on Haj was another way. its another matter that those on Haj get to meet Allah before they get to Mecca either by force (Bairam Khan) or by chance(Humayun's brothers).

-Secondly one cannot judge earlier people with modern mindset. They were following the rules of the day (doing their yuga dharma).

- Thirdly all those murders were because the neeyam of those days was only death. How do you depose an Emperor?

-Fourthly one of the Mughal Emperors was blinded by a rival usurper and was restored to power by Marathas.

- Fifthly one Mughal descendent of Bahadur Shah(some lady) asked for forgiveness of the people of India for the atrocities that her ancetors committed and said they also paid their dues after Aurnagazeb's death.

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 10 Jul 2012 20:38

Murugan wrote:Virendra-ji

Though there may be or may not be any obvious agreement between Rajputs and Mugals, Independent actions of Rajput governors are telling different stories. i have posted in previous page - how rajput governor of bengal moved captial or planned war and admin strategy, or mansingh strategised and led war against Maha Rana Pratap, Ramsingh led battles against Lachit, the way Jaswant singh carried out his admin etc proves that Rajputs were just more than vassals

Murugan Ji, I am myself a Rajput from Marwar, Rajasthan. I've no reasons to downplay Rajputs

and I believe I wasn't downplaying.
All the actions taken by Rajput rulers like Man Singh (as you mentioned) were implementation of the Mughals emperor's plans and not a brainchild of Man Singh and his kind.
Man Singh went in Mewar on command of Akbar and merely carried out his wish. Man Singh was appointed governor of Afghanistan by Akbar. That decision wasn't taken by a cabinet of Rajput-Mughals ministers but by one Mughal - Akbar.
Man singh's father Raja Bhagwant Das was almost forced by Akbar to cross Indus and go deep into Afghanistan to fight unruly Afghan tribes.
This despite of Bhagwant Das refusing it on the grounds that he would lose his caste/character/identity that he has in India if he crossed over Aryavarta boundary and went outside India. That was one of the ancient beliefs among Indians then. I don't see how these examples help us hyphenate Rajputs with Mughals as rulers.
Yes Rajputs were rulers (and quite autonomous) in their own Kingdoms, but outside their Kingdoms they only worked on commands of Mughal emperor as his Army Chiefs and Governors.

The fact is, when we simply say "Mughal-Rajput rule" it is a very high level (generalized) statement and here despite of all the arguments we may put forth, the Rajput participation with Mughals was not as equal partners.
I am against using such statements the same way I for example also do not agree with anyone saying "India ruled by Islam for 1000/800 years".
It is 100-120 years of pan India Mughal rule. Add may be 50-70 more years of fragmented regional rule. Lastly there are those turko-afghan Sultanates that ruled over parts of north India for around 250 years with inconsistently varying effect and range of rule.
In my opinion the devil is in the details. We have to read between the lines.
The “rule on parts of India” is very subtly generalized/simplified into “rule on India” and they successfully fool the reading generations into believeing some story that is far from truth. So far from truth !!
Most of our people in India don't bother diving deep in history as these nefarious generalizations make way into numbing/distorting their overview know-how as well.
Sorry I came far off the topic.

Regards,
Virendra

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 20:41

prasantji,

Rajputs of amber are not claiming any connection with mugals because all the other rajput clans of rajasthan and elsewhere did not approve the rajput mugal alliance. many rajput clans pledged not to give marry their daugters to amber rajputs.

My question is still there but in another words, what these mugals called themselves? Mugals? Gazis? Pak muslims? Any reference in naamas or inas? Thismquestion is like what kushans called themselves? Certainly not kushans. It is historians invention. Whether calling chagtai turks mugal is invented by historians?

****
Till date i was wondering how come marwadi businessmen like jagatseth and omi chand were based at kolkata 300 years ago. But now i can connect the dots. Rajputs were governers of bengal in akbar to aurangzeb's time they must have had taken alongwith them businessmen and other marwari menpower

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 20:46

Virendraji point noted.

But, why bhagwantdas allied with rajput. That alliance itself was loss of face for bhagwantdas and sons.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jul 2012 20:47

Can anyone post details on the structure and size of the Mughal army over time
- how much of a standing army with salary was kept?
- was it kept only in the capital or in the hands of regional guvs?
- was cavalry composed entirely of rajput and musalman units?
- since india was a bad place for horses in bulk and relations were central asia not good, did they import 1000s of horses from arabia by sea every yr to keep the stocks up (I know the Cholas paid good money to do that).
- what was the composition of the general staff, only rajput allies and muslim elites or some others also?
- did further "warlike hordes" from CAR region come down to India and join the mughal armies after humayun?
- did the rajput leaders get to lead a mix of their own and musalman units or just their own armies?
- how were the infantry trained...was there a professional training of infantry or were they just peasant levies raised by each chieftain under some quota system?
- how were their logistics for long distance campaigns like afghanistan or assam organized...for assam I guess they would have used big country boats on the brahmaputra to ship people and food up and down. esp in monsoon the place is very watery with 100s of N-S rivers and miles of swamps and lakes along the brahmaputra....land resupply would be poor at best, + malaria, diarhoea and jaundice which the natives were more used to.
- where were the main iron mines and steel foundries to fashion weapons? did places like moradabad and aligarh get into metal industry to supply delhi-agra-sikri armies?

to me it seems the 1st three babur, humayun, akbar worked very hard to establish this low key unknown band on one of the richest and fertile and culturally well developed patch of land in the whole world. and just like wayward sons of billionaires on trust funds, the rest gradually threw it all away. but the admin and mil system was strong and well organized, with enough competent field commanders and administrators in each gen to keep the ramparts secure until after aurangzeb it started to fall apart.....kind of like how a certain large democracy today is ruled from the shadows by a imbecile Prince but the country still exists and functions

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 10 Jul 2012 20:55

The core of the army was standing, under direct control of the badshah, cavalry, mainly CA origin - and roughly 45,000 at its peak - with perhaps as little as 1700 in the beginning and on an average about 20,000. Each ha dto maintain at least 4 horses, and therefore 8 attendants at the minimum. This army was also mainly recruited on the basis of the soldiers being of a minimal level of skill in mounted archery and be able to build and maintain their own reverse bows.

There were adjuncts - cavalry, regular infantry, artillery men, and elephant mounted warriors [as well as smaller elephant mounted swivel guns].

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 10 Jul 2012 20:57

Prasant wrote:
ramana wrote: Murugan, In patrilenial societies, its the father that gives the lineage of the sons. So Mughal fathers and Rajput mothers still are called Mughals.
Concur with that. Infact, the Rajputs do not consider any such progenies of Mughal kings and Rajput queens as one of their own.

It was an unequal and uneasy alliance.

rkirankr wrote:Probably these Rajputs never threatened his gaddi like his brothers. They were necessary tools for him to expand / defend his rule. JMT

Mughal emperors were always under constant troubles due to rebellions, drug addictions etc of mid level Army commanders, Administrators, Feudal lords etc. most of whom were Mughals themselves and emperors relatives. In rajputs they saw a race that was less to none in martial prowess and whose character and loyalty was unquestionable. That is why Akbar onwards the Mughal emperors always had Rajput allies. Even Aurangzeb despite of how much he hated Rajputs, followed the same tradition.

SaiK wrote:They say 20K workers worked for building Taj Mahal.. and who were the architect is not clear. Also, there is a storyline all important workers got their hands chopped off! 500 years of story telling should not be that distant past when we compare to tell horror stories of rakshas days. So, why did we fear so much to tell against the mughals.

We were debating Taj's origin sometime before at DFI.
I don't know if the BRF Admins allow DFI links here or not, but let me try:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/reli ... post496979
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/reli ... gh-41.html