AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 12 Mar 2013 16:17

Therefore it was now raising a dispute over jurisdiction with India on the interpretation of a clause in the United Nations Convention of the Law of the Sea (Unclos).

Sachin Ji this was and is consistently Italy's original stance. I had on this very forum quoted extensively from INternational maritime law and the Indian constitutions claims in 70s for jurisdictions over the contiguous zone and also the fact that as the crime was committed on an Indian flag vessel the jurisdiction rightfully should have been India's. Something changed in the last few hours. While not denying the need for a trial of the marines, the Italian Govt has hardened it's stance against them undergoing a trial in India for some reason in the last 24 hours. I say 'hardened' because on Xmas the Marines did go back to Italy and return for trial in India.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 12 Mar 2013 16:20

@ Manish_Sharma
It's not a Italian marines v/s Kerala fishermen issue.

The kerala cardinal will and already has taken up the issue. Their purpose is to maintain a cordial relation between the catholic chruch of india and the vatican. They've already taken sides. What can YOU do now?

If india punishes the marines then italy(and the vatican by extension) are not going to like it and they'll express it strongly with their indian catholic counterparts. The vatican will marginalize the indian churches and the later does not want that. In india interferes, it'll quickly turn into a majority v/s minority discrimination issue.

That's why, don't interfere. Let the catholics settle it among themselves.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Mar 2013 16:25

perhaps there was some back channel diplomacy underway to settle the matter with a few suitcases of cash, and someone didn't come through and the trial looked more certain. fearing the outcome of which, the italian government changed the rules

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Mar 2013 16:27

nvishal wrote: In india interferes, it'll quickly turn into a majority v/s minority discrimination issue.

Anyone who turns the issue of upholding of Indian laws into other matters needs a kick up their ass, irrespective of minority or majority.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 12 Mar 2013 16:30

@ Sanku
Respect the complexities.

Ask yourself this question: What are the good and the bad things that will come out of this?

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 12 Mar 2013 16:39

Sanku wrote: India has been spat on. If the chirstist did this to each other somewhere else, we would not care. In India, India should be bigger than what christists feel about the issue.

Yes,I agree.It was a flippant statement to start with.I am deleting my original post.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 12 Mar 2013 16:39

Dossier time!

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 12 Mar 2013 16:41

nvishal wrote:@ Manish_Sharma
It's not a Italian marines v/s Kerala fishermen issue.

The kerala cardinal will and already has taken up the issue. Their purpose is to maintain a cordial relation between the catholic chruch of india and the vatican. They've already taken sides. What can YOU do now?

What can YOU do about the environment? What can YOU do about corruption? What can YOU do about crime? What can YOU do about garbage on the streets?

If you want to look at it that way, the answer to every fundamental question is always- NOTHING.

If india punishes the marines then italy(and the vatican by extension) are not going to like it and they'll express it strongly with their indian catholic counterparts.

So what?

The vatican will marginalize the indian churches and the later does not want that.

So what?

In india interferes, it'll quickly turn into a majority v/s minority discrimination issue.

No it won't.

That's why, don't interfere. Let the catholics settle it among themselves.

Ok, then why don't we let the Italian police protect the Catholics in India, the Saudi Arabian police the Sunnis, Iran the Shi'a. While we're at it, they may have a separate judiciary and an army as well.

I cannot believe the reasons being given for GOI to do nothing. What are people thinking?

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 12 Mar 2013 16:43

nvishal wrote:@ Sanku
Respect the complexities.

Ask yourself this question: What are the good and the bad things that will come out of this?

So I shoot your mother and SC in collusion with GoI lets me leave to Pakistan. Settle it yourself? Analyze the good and bad? Minority vs Majority? Please do some meditation.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 12 Mar 2013 16:45

From Twitter-land :

@rameshsrivats: #ItalianMarines Italy showed the world how to make a pizza. And now India has shown the world how to do a home delivery.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 12 Mar 2013 16:51

harbans wrote:Atri wrote:

Indians: That is none of your phucking business. Marines should have thought this over before shooting the Indian citizens. Marines return OR we raise the stake.
Atri Ji, the problem here is raising the Stakes. When they respond, yes we want them tried but in a place where they are safe and not like in India where undertrials in high profile emotional cases are murdered/ suicided. Who will disagree. Where will you get the backers required for raising the stakes diplomatically, economically? Getting backers requires some high ground to say your justice systems do indeed provide the security needed for a fair trial.

Saar, I respect your opinions but seriously what boatload of nonsense is this?

They should have thought about the state of Indian prisons before they shot two Indians in cold blood. If they still went ahead & did it, they must be really looking forward to enjoying the Indian hospitality.

Those two mofos should be tied by their necks & dragged all the way to India like rabid dogs to be put to death.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 12 Mar 2013 16:55

Manish wrote:

So the cunningly covered hatred is not just for Hindu but for Bharatvarsh itself, here Harbans Singh my apologies for increasing your workload since now you'll have additional work of defending italian judicial system plus accusing Bhartiya Nyaya System:

Manish, that was a hit below the belt. Now where did i demean the Hindu or Bharatvarsh ever in my years on BRF? I have consistently put Dharma over 'Hinduism' for example and there are many now after pages of debate that believe exactly that. What Dharma means is another debate and that is raging in a thread that i have openly participated and put in my views including a preamble of what our nation should be like. So your accusation is a falsehood, a lie and a result of the slithering personal flame baits that some on this forum have time and again been carrying out on anyone who has a different take to them. They have been warned, banned a number of times but the personal insult and name calling just cannot cease. This only lowers the level of dialect on this forum, not enhances it. The people who are responsible for this are few. Yet they are quite evident. I don't respond to these here, because they don't indulge in dialect. They slither to name calling and insults faster than an invertebrate slinks into a hole. Yes and anyone calling me more Italian than an Italian to my face would have his teeth knocked in for sure.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 12 Mar 2013 16:55

nvishal wrote:That's why, don't interfere. Let the catholics settle it among themselves.

Today there were both Catholics. Tomorrow the dead could be Hindus. So what happens then? Can we go back and say "we let go the previous case (and the rule of law in India) because both of you were catholics, now we would act all uppity and prosecute you, because this time you killed Hindus"? The whole world now considers us laughing stock now, this would be adding insult to injury.

When we are not able to prosecute a criminal, we essentially say that:-
1. We ourselves do not know what laws we have written down
2. We dont care to implement the rule of law in our country (so others can come and have a free go here)
3. in case of "catholic v/s catholic" logic, our laws are also selectively implemented.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 12 Mar 2013 17:01

If the Christists in Kerala even as much as whimper in support of the Italians, they all should be stripped naked & bitchslapped till their backside is red as a buffoon's. Subverting Indian laws just because they can have a cozy master slave relationship with the Vatican should not & cannot be tolerated. They are no longer Indians, if that is the case, but Vatican's slaves residing in India & should be dealt as such.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Mar 2013 17:04

nvishal wrote:@ Sanku
Respect the complexities.

Ask yourself this question: What are the good and the bad things that will come out of this?

I am absolutely in the dark as to what you are saying here.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 12 Mar 2013 17:22

Manish/ Chandragupt ji here i will try and answer your points.

Manish: The figures for the Italian prisons is bad, and i am glad that you got that out. So despite your bait i do feel it's something the Indians can pressure the Italians on. On this forum, last year i remember only a very few participated in the nitty gritty law aspects dealing with the UNCLOS and international maritime law regarding the Italian and the Indian Govts. I pointed many articles within the Indian constitution and International law that made India's case strong. But many here obviously don't understand the nuances as is evident. Where exactly it happened has not been cleared yet. It was i who pointed out how that aspect could be cleared on this forum. Others here who are name calling had no comment on that issue at that time. They were absent. It was i here who pointed to the relevant clauses in International law that made our case strong. None here pointed those out.

So to say i batted for the Italians is unfairness at the extremity. Yet understanding all that above also entails understanding the sensitivities involved in this case. You and most here have never dealt with the IMB. I have for years. In professional capacity i used to receive and analyze individual IMB reports. So i know a lot more about this matter than you can imagine. You and most here probably would not know the reasons why the Marines should or should not be tried within Indian jurisdiction.

When on another forum you talk Purva Paksha it simply means understanding the others POV. Understanding the underlying issues, i only did a PP and looked at it from their POV, as to what their responses might be in this instance.

Italians have been looking at how to take the case away from Indian jurisdiction ever since the arrest of the marines. Any hint of an opportunity will be a god send for them. Already the rights issues on Indian prisons and the slow justice system perpetuating for years on end to deliver justice has been in prominent spotlight. An open fly torn shirt argument is likely not to hold with the Italians at this point as the Marines are with them now. While the Italian prison stats are good to quote and you got them out only because i raised this issue, from the critical aspect it is only an Open fly torn shirt argument. It's hardly going to hold once the Italians are outside our jurisdiction.

They should have thought about the state of Indian prisons before they shot two Indians in cold blood. If they still went ahead & did it, they must be really looking forward to enjoying the Indian hospitality.

No they did not think so. Hours before they were in a zone that was not under the jurisdiction of any country. They were not versed under Indian law that Indian and international law that our jurisdiction by a 1979 statute has been extended to 24 Nm from the 12 Nm already. Coming from a piracy zone and finding a fishing boat in the vicinity they fired. The last thing on their minds would be under whose jurisdiction they were. The only thing very clear to them was that being on an Italian Flag vessel ship they were on Italian soil. They may even have not checked the ships actual position on the charts. All events that i know nothing about, but within the sphere of investigations to determine.

So the controversy as you can see is not some open and shut case. It at all it is, it is only on the basis of the posts and legalities that I had posted on this very forum last year. With that kind of sensitivity to this case it was a rank bad decision to send the marines to Italy particularly the 2nd time around. With that sensitivity it is obvious after the Tihar incident they will be even more reluctant to spend time in an Indian prison. Every foreigner anywhere in the world dreads the other nations' prisons. Hype or not irrespective. The incident at Tihar gives them even more reason to hype safety of undertrials and prisoners also in addition to the other underlying sensitivities involved in the case.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 12 Mar 2013 17:29

I don't know if people know of the case, but in Summer 2007, a German boy 17 years old was detained by Turkish authorities because the mother of a British girl (13 years old) had reported that the German boy had Sex with her on some holiday location. It was consensual, but ...

Turkey threw this boy into jail which had 30 other detainees and despite all the pleading and uproar by German chancellor and the rest of the government refused to intervene.

Published on 26.06.2007
Turkey Turns Down German Request to Help Detained Boy: Deutsche Welle

Published on 06.07.2007
Turkey Keeps German Boy in Jail in Sex Abuse Trial: Deutsche Welle

And remember Turkey jails are famous for their "human-rights standards"! (Sarc!)

Also remember that for Turkey relations with Germany are important because of the many millions of Turks in Germany.

Yes and then we have Sonia Gandhi's Government in India ...

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 12 Mar 2013 17:45

harbans wrote:Manish wrote:

So the cunningly covered hatred is not just for Hindu but for Bharatvarsh itself, here Harbans Singh my apologies for increasing your workload since now you'll have additional work of defending italian judicial system plus accusing Bhartiya Nyaya System:
Manish, that was a hit below the belt. Now where did i demean the Hindu or Bharatvarsh ever in my years on BRF? I have consistently put Dharma over 'Hinduism' for example and there are many now after pages of debate that believe exactly that.
Hinduism and Dharma are synonymous, Hinduism is the Dharma because it lets the different; in fact opposing moksh margas to flourish under its umbrella like Tantra and Yoga and Sankhya to opposing paths, now sikhism can at the most be called just a moksh marga but not dharma itself as their is only and only one path but no tolerance of others, see how sikhs go in murderous rage against others like Dera Sachha Sauda.

What Dharma means is another debate and that is raging in a thread that i have openly participated and put in my views including a preamble of what our nation should be like. So your accusation is a falsehood, a lie and a result of the slithering personal flame baits that some on this forum have time and again been carrying out on anyone who has a different take to them. They have been warned, banned a number of times but the personal insult and name calling just cannot cease. This only lowers the level of dialect on this forum, not enhances it. The people who are responsible for this are few. Yet they are quite evident.
You are again being dishonest, one of your points was that word 'Hindu' was given by outsiders, I had posted a pdf link to you by poster Gandharva of 7 pages proving that word 'Hindu' is indigenous and used in Sanskrit before outsiders came. You avoided by taking a single line from the whole 7 pages and totally avoided answering those Sanskrit texts quoted which proved word Hindu is our own Bhartiya word. IF YOU WERE AN HONEST PERSON YOU WOULD HAVE ACCEPTED THAT YOU WERE WRONG IN STATING 'HINDU' IS AN OUTSIDER GIVEN WORD

I don't respond to these here, because they don't indulge in dialect.

They slither to name calling and insults faster than an invertebrate slinks into a hole. Yes and anyone calling me more Italian than an Italian to my face would have his teeth knocked in for sure.

Sure why not , all the high moral dharmic codes are for Bharatvarsh to follow not for italians or those more italians than italians like you. So your dharma code gives you right to knock out the teeth of anybody calling you something you don't like. But Bhartiyas have to be following 'super dharmic high moral code' Like safety of rapist/murderer from taking their own life.

I didn't call you more italian than italians but now I'm saying that and also unpatriotic, so now in one of the BRF meets we'll meet and after that meet we can settle who knocks whose teeth.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 12 Mar 2013 17:47

Just shows what happens when one becomes a "moral values" extremist!

Rajesh Ji you can address this to me directly. I have answered most queries in the above. But it is ironically you only that speak so much about Rajiv Malhotra's Purva Paksha. Understanding the opponent etc.

Answer me a simple question: Should we improve upon our criminal justice systems because it should be improved or should we improve it because others say it should be improved. I am assuming you will say the former as most obviously will.

Europeans have always played the high moral crusade with us for centuries now. Living in Germany for so many years/ decades you should be knowing better than a person like me who's stuck in India. Do Europeans leave a chance to undermine our Human rights challenges etc?

Now the question that you should answer me is this: With their penchant for moral lecturing what are the chances that the Italians will not raise at the minimum unofficially the backwardness of the Indian Criminal justice systems where the highest profile case in decades ends up in a key accused hanging himself in some 10x7 cell with 3 others, amidst major accusations of sodomy/ rape etc.

And if they do irrespective if it is hype that the Indian justice system is too flawed for the trial and an International tribunal in Europe will do a better job of the issue, then what chances do you realistically think that an international arbitration court is going to deliver a statement that no the trial should be in India and not some international court.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 12 Mar 2013 17:51

why are words like sankhya, yoga, tantra, dharma, purva paksha etc even appearing on this thread?

have forgotten our sense of perspective?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 12 Mar 2013 17:52

1) No country allows people who have killed their citizens to go and live in the Embassy! The possession of the criminal is something agencies fight over, and here we have Indian Government allowing the Marines to go live in their Embassy! Whoever came up with this has to answer this! This is NOT Normal! They are not to be treated as guests, but are detainees awaiting trial.

2) There is no question of giving bail to anybody whose guilt in killing Indians has already been settled, the only question remaining about the circumstances. Even the questions about circumstances are immaterial because Indian blood has been spilled and the Indian state would have to make them pay! If the Italians had snatched away an Indian kid's ice-cream even for that he would have to pay!

3) There is no question of letting culprits leave the country and go beyond the country's jurisdiction. Who came up with the corny idea that they needed to go home for Christmas? How the hell does it matter if it is Christmas, Diwali or Eid? These Marines are guilty of killing Indians! There is no question of showing even 0.0001 % deference to such wishes! This is not even a question of human rights?

4) There is no question of letting culprits leave the country for voting! I mean this is so funny one feels like crying! Is this a question of human rights? Who gives a damn about the rights they enjoy in Italy as Italian citizens. Here they were to be dealt with according to Indian Law! Where does it say that detainees have such rights?

5) Even if one thought that they ought to be allowed to vote, they could have done that in the Italian Embassy. In fact voting is allowed through Diplomatic missions. Thousands of Italians living abroad would have availed of that facility. Why could these Italian Marines not have done that in their Embassy?

The only right these Italian Marines had was that of diplomatic counsel, where somebody from the Italian Embassy could visit them in an Indian jail! Absolutely no more privileges are foreseen in international law!

All Indians who are responsible for providing these Italian Marines, butchers of Indians, any more rights than those foreseen in international treaties, e.g. anything over and above diplomatic counsel before and during trial, should be arrested, declared traitors and shot in the head, and it should not matter if they are leaders of ruling parties, India's foreign minister, Supreme Court judges, or anybody else!

Traitors need to be shot!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 12 Mar 2013 17:53

Atri wrote:why are words like sankhya, yoga, tantra, dharma, purva paksha etc even appearing on this thread?

have forgotten our sense of perspective?

Atri garu,

I don't know. I guess anything that diverts the attention from those guilty of treachery is good! No?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 12 Mar 2013 17:53

Like safety of rapist/murderer from taking their own life.

Into the dustbin of the ignore box.

So that is the kind of 'dialect' we see from some of the characters here. Frothing ''Bharatiya' nationalists'' that don't even understand the concept of concluding a high profile trial fairly for the nation. Why blame the Italians then. Or do other 'nationalists' here believe this 'nationalist' is correct?

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 12 Mar 2013 17:54

Pranav wrote:Who were the judges who allowed them to go back?

Mark those names.

That is the chief justice of india...

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 12 Mar 2013 17:56

harbans wrote:Now the question that you should answer me is this: With their penchant for moral lecturing what are the chances that the Italians will not raise at the minimum unofficially the backwardness of the Indian Criminal justice systems where the highest profile case in decades ends up in a key accused hanging himself in some 10x7 cell with 3 others, amidst major accusations of sodomy/ rape etc.

Who gives a Frack what Italians say or raise? Their opinion should have been irrelevant.

We had the possession over the Italian Marines and they should have been hanged for killing the Indian fishermen! Period!

It is really that simple!

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 12 Mar 2013 17:58

harbans wrote:Something changed in the last few hours. While not denying the need for a trial of the marines, the Italian Govt has hardened it's stance against them undergoing a trial in India for some reason in the last 24 hours. I say 'hardened' because on Xmas the Marines did go back to Italy and return for trial in India.

Despite their having come back after xmas, it is perfectly possible that this time their decision to not return was premeditated. Government bureaucracies don't react that fast.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 12 Mar 2013 18:07

Sanku wrote:
arun wrote: It will be interesting to see what spin the Italian born Party Boss of Congress Party , namely Mrs. Sonia Gandhi will have to put on this matter.
One of the posters is currently offering that Italy is right in not trusting India because undertrials have known to commit suicide in India?

I dont think this one can be beaten for sheer brazenness.

No Sanku ji,

they did not return because of the poor ventilation in Indian jails, and the toilets are squat toilets, really not fit for Italians!

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 12 Mar 2013 18:12

harbans wrote:Manish/ Chandragupt ji here i will try and answer your points.

Manish: The figures for the Italian prisons is bad, and i am glad that you got that out. So despite your bait i do feel it's something the Indians can pressure the Italians on. On this forum, last year i remember only a very few participated in the nitty gritty law aspects dealing with the UNCLOS and international maritime law regarding the Italian and the Indian Govts. I pointed many articles within the Indian constitution and International law that made India's case strong. But many here obviously don't understand the nuances as is evident. Where exactly it happened has not been cleared yet. It was i who pointed out how that aspect could be cleared on this forum. Others here who are name calling had no comment on that issue at that time. They were absent. It was i here who pointed to the relevant clauses in International law that made our case strong. None here pointed those out.

So to say i batted for the Italians is unfairness at the extremity. Yet understanding all that above also entails understanding the sensitivities involved in this case. You and most here have never dealt with the IMB. I have for years. In professional capacity i used to receive and analyze individual IMB reports. So i know a lot more about this matter than you can imagine. You and most here probably would not know the reasons why the Marines should or should not be tried within Indian jurisdiction.

No I only responded to your statement........ "Baikul ji we've lost high moral ground........"

Italians have been looking at how to take the case away from Indian jurisdiction ever since the arrest of the marines. Any hint of an opportunity will be a god send for them. Already the rights issues on Indian prisons and the slow justice system perpetuating for years on end to deliver justice has been in prominent spotlight. An open fly torn shirt argument is likely not to hold with the Italians at this point as the Marines are with them now. While the Italian prison stats are good to quote and you got them out only because i raised this issue, from the critical aspect it is only an Open fly torn shirt argument. It's hardly going to hold once the Italians are outside our jurisdiction.
Thanks for answering Harbans, but now you have now taken a 180 degree turn from your statement you made:
Harbans wrote: Baikul Ji, we cannot develop any response now. The high ground has been lost yesterday at Tihar. The Italians have every right not to send their marines to India for trial or sentencing after what happened yesterday. I hope the teeming hordes that were joyous with glee yesterday do realize the implications of the act. There is no high ground from which one can now take any action against the marines.

See how you've completely changed the argument from 'we lost moral ground' to 'since italians are out of our jurisdiction these arguments won't hold'

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 12 Mar 2013 18:16

harbans wrote:Getting backers requires some high ground to say your justice systems do indeed provide the security needed for a fair trial

No. No such requirement needed. All that is needed is an intent and a resolve to punch at the weight class that you are actually measured and recognized at. How do puny countries like Israel carry out their foreign policy? How does the Anglosphere continue to dictate the global geo-strategic equation today despite all the hyper-networking, globalisation and unfavorable demographics? Do they have any moral high ground after the numerous genocides which they've committed?

Once you announce your intent publicly, you will get backing. Sooner or later.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 12 Mar 2013 18:22

Now we know that even the courts have been compromised by this government. How on earth do people still expect the BJP to win in 2014? CJI has proved to be an out and out INC stooge, so there is no hope in the courts.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 12 Mar 2013 18:27

Put the Ambassador in jail. Where there is a will there is a way.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 12 Mar 2013 18:27

Raje3sh Ji you haven't answered my simple question.

Now the question that you should answer me is this: With their penchant for moral lecturing what are the chances that the Italians will not raise at the minimum unofficially the backwardness of the Indian Criminal justice systems where the highest profile case in decades ends up in a key accused hanging himself in some 10x7 cell with 3 others, amidst major accusations of sodomy/ rape etc.

And if they do irrespective if it is hype that the Indian justice system is too flawed for the trial and an International tribunal in Europe will do a better job of the issue, then what chances do you realistically think that an international arbitration court is going to deliver a statement that no the trial should be in India and not some international court.

One the sensitivity and controversy regarding whether Indian jurisdiction holds and coupled with now the disturbing penchant of 'bumping' off undertrials do we have a good case? For those who think that we have not lost ground due to these events i have said time will tell. Every conversation with them when we say we will give a fair trial will it not end with 'But you bump off undertrials'. And if one does not have Italian prison figures at hand, something that emerged here because i raised the 'moral ground' issue (since PP has not been considered important in this case), the response will be bumbling incoherence.

nawabs · Post by **nawabs** » 12 Mar 2013 18:31

Did India sign a treaty allowing Italian marines to go home?

The Times Now channel reports that it has accessed an affidavit signed by the Italian and Indian governments that would have allowed the Italian marines to go home even if they had been convicted.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Mar 2013 18:32

nawabs wrote:
Did India sign a treaty allowing Italian marines to go home?

The Times Now channel reports that it has accessed an affidavit signed by the Italian and Indian governments that would have allowed the Italian marines to go home even if they had been convicted.

Yes they did, 2 weeks back.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 12 Mar 2013 18:36

Chief Justice of India: Altamas Kabir

Wikipedia says
He was born in a Bengali family. He studied law at the University of Calcutta, Kolkata. His father, Jehangir Kabir was a leading Congress politician and trade union leader from West Bengal who served as a Minister in the B.C. Roy and P.C. Sen ministries and also went on to become a minister in the first non-Congress government in West Bengal in 1967 with Ajoy Kumar Mukherjee as the Chief Minister of West Bengal.[4] He studied in the eminent Mount Hermon School, Darjeeling and Calcutta Boys' School of Calcutta. Impressed by one of his argumentative article on social issues and their solutions, a teacher at Calcutta Boys' School advised him to pursue a career in law. After graduating with history from Presidency College, then affiliated with the University of Calcutta, he studied law.

On 19 October 2012, he granted bail to journalist Syed Mohammed Ahmed Kazmi, arrested for his alleged involvement in the Israeli embassy vehicle blast case in which an Israeli diplomat's wife was injured. Pronouncing the order, Justice Kabir said, “We are unable to appreciate the procedure adopted by the chief metropolitan magistrate, which has been endorsed by the High Court and we are of the view that the appellant (Kazmi) acquired the right for grant of statutory bail on July 17, 2012, when his custody was held to be illegal by the additional sessions judge.”

------------

This man needs to answer why the murderers of Indian fishermen were not kept in Indian detention facilities during the duration of trial. What compelling reason was there for them to live on the premises of Italian Embassy, allowed to visit Italy for Christmas, allowed to visit Italy for voting even though it is possible to do so from India itself.

If he can answer fine and well. If not then he should be booked for treachery and the needful needs to be done!

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 12 Mar 2013 18:36

4 Issues here:

1. Pending controversy on Indian Jurisdiction.
2. Italians not now in Indian custody.
3. Indian high profile case undertrial 'bumped' off.
4. Developing penchant for speedier 'Natural justice' outside the scope of the judicial system in India.

All the above make it extremely difficult for India to get the marines back. And all these issues will be at stake in this issue, despite all what we may rave and wish for. So irrespective of how much frothing nationalists want to hang, quarter the marines, to the average Italian and possibly the International tribunal each of these factors will be got into play at some time. That is exactly what i have stated in my posts. In blind rage the frothing so called 'nationalists' have name called and made blind and wild accusations. With more factors yes the high ground towards rejection of Indian jurisdiction increases. In an international tribunal India itself will be a party to the high ground. And that is what is going now to inevitably happen.

rajithn · Post by **rajithn** » 12 Mar 2013 18:38

Wild theory: The "Indian Government" "comes down hard" on the Italian Government. Reads them the "riot act", so to speak. The Italian Government gets "scared" and relents - sends the marines back.
The court finds them guilty. Not of murder but some lesser charges, with a sentence of 5-8 years.
But the Government lets them go back to Italy based on the deal they signed for 'exchange of prisoners'.
CONgis come out of the woodwork proclaiming how they stood up to the Italians. But that they sent them back to Italy to serve their prison sentences on home soil, owing to the mutual treaty.
Back in Italy, the Italian Government lets the marines go without serving their sentence. After all, who's looking.

rajithn · Post by **rajithn** » 12 Mar 2013 18:44

harbans wrote:4 Issues here:

1. <SNIP>
3. Indian high profile case undertrial 'bumped' off.
4. Developing penchant for speedier 'Natural justice' outside the scope of the judicial system in India.

<SNIP>

It is not an India only situation, this.

In many, many countries around the world, convicts who have been imprisoned for "child rape" and some other crimes are sh** scared of being put in some prisons owing to the fear that others may shank them. Similar to the fear that 'cop killers' have of being ill treated by Prison Guards. There has been a history of child rapists, cop killers, mafia dons, snitches etc being bumped off within the prison system - all over the world.

I think the quid pro quo also could be (I say 'could' because of the other wild theory I posted)

- let the marines go and we will bury the indian names in the AGW deal.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 12 Mar 2013 18:46

Interesting tweet by Minhaz Merchant

https://twitter.com/minhazmerchant/stat ... 1521662976

If Italian ambassador can submit false affidavit to SC, can Italy be trusted on AgustaWestland case?

idea incepted in public domain....

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 12 Mar 2013 18:47

harbans wrote:Raje3sh Ji you haven't answered my simple question.

Now the question that you should answer me is this: With their penchant for moral lecturing what are the chances that the Italians will not raise at the minimum unofficially the backwardness of the Indian Criminal justice systems where the highest profile case in decades ends up in a key accused hanging himself in some 10x7 cell with 3 others, amidst major accusations of sodomy/ rape etc.

And if they do irrespective if it is hype that the Indian justice system is too flawed for the trial and an International tribunal in Europe will do a better job of the issue, then what chances do you realistically think that an international arbitration court is going to deliver a statement that no the trial should be in India and not some international court.
One the sensitivity and controversy regarding whether Indian jurisdiction holds and coupled with now the disturbing penchant of 'bumping' off undertrials do we have a good case? For those who think that we have not lost ground due to these events i have said time will tell. Every conversation with them when we say we will give a fair trial will it not end with 'But you bump off undertrials'. And if one does not have Italian prison figures at hand, something that emerged here because i raised the 'moral ground' issue (since PP has not been considered important in this case), the response will be bumbling incoherence.

harbans ji,

I've answered your question.

You feel the need to justify yourself when others make accusations on you - backward judicial system, etc. etc.. There is no need to respond.

We just carry out the trial, and hang them as they should be!

Why do you want to always put ourselves on trial? And that too by others?

As far as the standards of our judicial system and prison system is concerned, we will deal with it, but we do not need to answer anybody on this.

You don't differentiate between dissatisfaction with the quality of one's own system and shame because of it in front of others! We are not answerable to any others! Just because they complain or sneer changes nothing for us.

All the time I am reading "Shame" in your posts. I hope you get over it! It is not healthy!