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RKumar wrote:Common on Austin, you can do better then these DDM news walas. No air force is going to decommission 10 squadrons in one year. How many times it is repeated that IAF is getting 1 squadron of Su-30 MKI per year (Till 2017-2018) and then 1 squadron of LCA. So 10 squadrons are replaced with 12 squadrons (3 Su-30, 7 LCA Mk1-2, 2 Rafale). Of course it will not be suddenly 42 squadron.
With current behavior IAF might be down to around 30 squadrons, assuming they want 7-7 (IAF's cut) = 0 LCA and 7-5 (MoD and FiM's cut)=2 Rafale squadrons.
The depleting squadron strength is for this decade though I would say IAF would still run Bison Upg till 2025 , The MKI are just 272 thats already accounted for so filling MKI wont fill the gap from the 10 Squadron depletion , one can always argue that 1 MKI is equal to 4x Mig-21 or 1 Rafale = 3x Mig-27 etc but that apart.
The mass replacement of certain types be it 21's or 27's would be far higher then what IAF is inducting thats including Tejas whose build capacity at HAL is an unknown factor.....I would look for the 8 Tejas that HAL can produce and sustain each year before I jump to other number.
So the only choice for IAF is to stay with low squadron number ~ 28-30 squadron but qualatitively better aircraft be it MKI/Rafale/Tejas or opt for light fighter of another type be it Gripen or F-16 or what ever fits their bill.
LCA mk-1 should be forced into the IAF regardless of how much they bicker. I think the DM should mandate a large expansion of the LCA line with at least 30 aircraft per year and an immediate order of an additional 100 MK-1 should be made, all to be delivered in FOC config. by 2020.
Singha wrote:deft scaremongering as if 10 sqdns will suddenly retire one night instead of about 1 sqdn every year until 2025.
the solution is very clear and there is only one solution.
people do not want to accept the reality that india is a poor country and we need the increased spending on infra FAR FAR more than a bunch of shiny new platinum grade fighters relatively speaking. tens of millions of people will spend another generation in poverty unless we act decisively and break the back of the Congi deficit economy/slumlord system in the next 10 years.
even if Massa were to offer us for free some 100 JSF from its own stock, the opex of massaging and feeding these babies in AC hangers would bankrupt us...plus the complex avionics and sensors all needing expensive OEM support.
India a "poor" country? : ROTFL :
In the 70s the estimate was that for every Rs that was above, there was one below.
I did a very unscientific survey of real well to do business people in India (the few that I know). Their estimates: for every one Rs above, there are three below.
Indians need to figure out how to "level" that playing field.
X-posting from the Mil Aviation thread. What do gurus think?
arshyam wrote:
Former IAF Vice-Chief Air Marshall (retd) PK Barbora said, “One of the options to meet the shortfall is through a tie-up with another country to produce next lot of light-combat aircraft, Tejas, and not wait for Hindustan Aeronautics Limited or the Defence Research and Development Organisation to manufacture these.”
There is one silver lining: no comments like Tejas is x-legged cheetah/cheetal, etc., instead there is a comment on Tejas's delivery rate. That's a good thing. I take this to mean the IAF wants the Tejas to play a role in meeting their shortfall, and their major complaint is the production rate now. No comments on the foreign partner part.
To address the above, I think HAL a) needs more orders, but at the same time, needs b) a fire in the seat to get things going.
To address a), place a firm order of 100 Tejas Mk-1/1.5 with HAL, with options for more, and b) announce a private production vendor competition to get the Tatas, Mahindras, Taneja, etc. involved in making another 100 plus options. This plan b) can start ramping up by the time Mk-2 is ready. The options clause will be a carrot for further orders that could go to either HAL or the pvt vendor depending on who meets the timelines and satisfactory reports from IAF. Another carrot is the upgrade orders for Mk1 planes to 1.5 standard a few years later (I understand Mk-1 cannot be upgraded to Mk2). Yet another is the NLCA, that may be around 50(?) fighters.
The above will ensure we have 2 full-fledged homegrown manufacturers by the 2022-25 timeframe, ready for making the AMCA when it arrives.
At the same time, we need to get GE to tie up with a local vendor and make the engines here. We are looking at a minimum order book of 250, maybe 300 LCAs in one version or another. GE won't transfer the engine tech, but let's at least get the manufacturing process going without wasting further time on a mythical ToT.
Singha wrote:deft scaremongering as if 10 sqdns will suddenly retire one night instead of about 1 sqdn every year until 2025.
the solution is very clear and there is only one solution.
people do not want to accept the reality that india is a poor country and we need the increased spending on infra FAR FAR more than a bunch of shiny new platinum grade fighters relatively speaking. tens of millions of people will spend another generation in poverty unless we act decisively and break the back of the Congi deficit economy/slumlord system in the next 10 years.
even if Massa were to offer us for free some 100 JSF from its own stock, the opex of massaging and feeding these babies in AC hangers would bankrupt us...plus the complex avionics and sensors all needing expensive OEM support.
India a "poor" country? : ROTFL :
In the 70s the estimate was that for every Rs that was above, there was one below.
I did a very unscientific survey of real well to do business people in India (the few that I know). Their estimates: for every one Rs above, there are three below.
Indians need to figure out how to "level" that playing field.
Importing expensive war machines in large numbers is not a sustainable strategy even for a rich country.
I think Parrikar is doing a good job of cleaning up the mess.
I don't understand the IAF's point here. So, what they are saying is either Rafale, or Gripen because we have to replace the Mig-21s and Mig-27s.
Let me for a moment believe that LCA Mk-1 is a lemon in A2A. Can it not do ground attacks of the Mig-27s? So, why not replace the Mig-27s with the LCA Mk1/1.5s. We have 165 Mig-27s to replace.
By that time, the Mk2s will arrive. If all airplanes in the IAFs stable have to multirole (for reasons best known to them), then replace the Mk1s/Mk1.5s with Mk2s. They are cheap! If we get the Rafales for 150million a piece, we would laugh our way to the bank (they are currently negotiating them for 200 million a piece). We can get 5-7 LCA Mk1s at that price! Donate the retired Mk1s to firendly countries and become great!
This is the true test of Parrikar. Can he stand up to the lobbies?
Kanson wrote:How could an opinion from an Ex- Marshall could be taken royally as IAF stated policy?
And the news looks more like quoting few lines/few words of officers out of context, here and there to project a particular opinion - in this case more Rafale.
Time of to note these news org who are all involved in such activities.
Look at the message and not just the messenger. They want you to focus on messenger for plausible deniability.
IF Raha had no Plan B, he should have said nothing for it spiked the negotiations.
Now this other former officer wants LCA made out side India.
So he wants an import of some sort.
IAF has over the years made many bad decisions.
If there is a shortfall of 10 squadrons its their fault for not liking anything available but unobtanium planes.
And the steady crashes of planes every year.
IN chief resigned when there were repeated accidents of fighting vessels.
So far no IAF chief ever had that level of integrity to take the sword.
And they scuttled the CDS for too long.
If you reflect on it the crown jewels are not with them anymore.
Think about it.......
After ACM PK Mehra saab not one IAF chief is worth wearing those wings.
So far we had flyboys for flypasts.
Not air warriors.
johneeG wrote:
Importing expensive war machines in large numbers is not a sustainable strategy even for a rich country.
I think Parrikar is doing a good job of cleaning up the mess.
Bring it all above first. Then you can use it for imports or exports - as you please. This is not a MoD issue, nor a political one.
But, taht discussion is for another thread.
Agree with you. But, corruption in defence deals(which generally involve imports) also is a source of creating this black economy. So, curbing imports(which would curtail corruption chances) can be seen as one of the steps to control black economy. Of course, many more steps need to be taken. But, as you say, they are a topic for a different thread.
ramana wrote:
If you reflect on it the crown jewels are not with them anymore.
Think about it.......
Ramana gaaru,
I didn't understand this part of your post.
But you notice that nobody is asking - doing a 50% offset for 36 aircraft is not economical. I suspect that UNI report is more correct than we realise.
ramana wrote:Also the unnamed IAF brass leak their presentation details before meeting the RM to the press. Sort of pressure tactic.
Need to fire the leakers for disobeying chain of command.
This will also fix the presstitutes.
Yes I am on a firing spree.
They did the same with the hurriedly written and heavily biased CAG report on LCA and presented it to the parliament just when Modi was visiting Paris. They didn't wait for feedback/counterpoints from the R&D and production side. Part of the same pressure "no plan B" tactics.
they are repeatedly challenging the authority of the DM by ambushing him with selective leaks and hit pieces off other people's shoulders. this time also it is when he is abroad on a trip I think.
this kind of thing is not tolerated in other countries. a lot of top generals in massa have got sacked for much less stuff when they crossed the path of the secy defence or potus.
ramana wrote:
Look at the message and not just the messenger. They want you to focus on messenger for plausible deniability.
Yes, that is def. a possibility. But this sharing of blueprint or the process of what needs to be done is already agreed upon. That's why I believe the news is a mischief.
OTOH, if this is a pressure tactics as they did during UPA, then they deserve 'firing squad'.
I don't get IAFs reluctance with a les than perfect lca. Use them, flog them then when you have a better variant sell them to someone else and use the new ones.
Singha wrote:given our launch on impact policy, there is no reason to develop dharmic arjunish thoughts after half the country is flattened by a enemy first strike.
deterrence is not about having a fickle mind...and in any case SFC cannot loft the kind of heavy anti city weapons that proper deterrence needs only A3 and A5 does that.
Imho the case for air launched nukes very much exists since it presents a capability which we have developed over decades. Its not just about the hardware but also processes and training. The capability may never be exercised, but I would rather have our govt have it as an option.
Plus the sfc squadrons may train and perform for strategic missions which do not require nukes. Such as destroying enemy nuclear facilities, weapons etc
USAF and NATO air forces are still equipped with b61(?) Free fall nukes. France continues with asmp.
Singha wrote:they are repeatedly challenging the authority of the DM by ambushing him with selective leaks and hit pieces off other people's shoulders. this time also it is when he is abroad on a trip I think.
this kind of thing is not tolerated in other countries. a lot of top generals in massa have got sacked for much less stuff when they crossed the path of the secy defence or potus.
Past RM's have issued gag orders. This is another institutionalized issue. There is no "proper" mechanism for the services and other senior bureaucrats to report to parliament and indirectly to the nation on their personal / departmental views. If we have such a mechanism then these issues become moot and less need for such leaks. Representation of the executive in front of standing committees should become institutionalized.
haryanvi wrote:IAF expresses discomfiture over the decision to limit Rafale purchase
36 Rafale not enough, IAF uneasy
Day after Parrikar said 126 jets ‘too many’, Air Force raises concern over depleting fleet
Ajay Banerjee
Tribune News Service
New Delhi, June 1
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar’s decision to buy only 36 Rafale fighter jets from France—instead of the initially proposed 126—has not found favour with the Indian Air Force, which feels the pared number would not be enough to meet its operational requirement.
The IAF brass has prepared a blueprint of its needs and plans to present it before the Defence Minister, who is expected to return to Delhi tomorrow.
Parrikar had, in an interview to a news agency yesterday, said buying 126 jets, as proposed by the previous UPA government, was “economically unviable”.
The IAF, said sources, would project its requirement before the minister and state that a “mere” 36 jets would not meet the shortfall occurring due to the phasing out of MiG-21 and MiG-27 jets by 2022.
The force had projected an immediate requirement of 126 Rafale-type medium multi-role combat aircraft, though it would need 400 jets over the next 10 years.
As of now, the IAF has 34 fighter jet squadrons (having 16-18 planes each) against its projected requirement of 42 squadrons to tackle any simultaneous war with China and Pakistan.
A mixed ancestry and level of technology marks the 640-odd fighter jet fleet, largely imported from Russia over the past 30 years. British and French companies have supplied about 150 planes.
The IAF is likely to raise two demands before Parrikar: Replacing the around 260 obsolete MiG-21s and MiG-27s (Soviet Union-era single-engine fighter jets) and adding 145-150 jets to have a fleet that is 42-squadron strong.
In October last year, IAF Chief Air Marshall Arup Raha had said, “We are left with quite a few with a majority of our fleet being in a phase-out mode. The drawdown has to be tackled by quick induction of medium multi-role and light combat aircraft.”
Speaking at the Aero-India Show in February, the Air Marshall had reiterated his demand saying: “We urgently need planes... may not necessarily be Rafales.”
Former IAF Vice-Chief Air Marshall (retd) PK Barbora said, “One of the options to meet the shortfall is through a tie-up with another country to produce next lot of light-combat aircraft, Tejas, and not wait for Hindustan Aeronautics Limited or the Defence Research and Development Organisation to manufacture these.”
Ha Ha , IAF is being led up the garden path where DM will decide on Light Combat Aircraft to be inducted in large numbers based on IAF's request. They may not get more Rafale as they project phase out of MIG 21 and MIG 27 and Rafale is far superior to both of them. MIG 21 certainly comes under light category and hence LCA would be forced. I hope he decides to set up more lines for MK-1 to ramp up production to 30 or 40 per year which would replace MIG 21 and build up total to 300-400 by 2022/25 as demanded by IAF. No other logical path to such a decision exists.
If you reflect on it the crown jewels are not with them anymore.
Think about it.......
.
SFC....
ShauryaT wrote:No, the jewels are now distributed, the IAF is no longer the only custodian, is what he means, IMO.
Exactly, I meant just that. I also have a suspicion that 36 rafale could be for SFC as they had raised requirement of 40 Nuke capable fighters in presentation to NaMo in 2014 July. Or additional could be ordered for them. They need not wait for new crafts to be developed. IAF can . Nuke triad needs to be fully functional.
The IAF's demand of "we want Rafale & nothing else", combined with the moral high horse of "we will fight with what we have" is like a wife demanding her 15th Kanjeepuram Silk Saree, while claiming that "I can even live on rice porridge if push comes to shove"
Septimus P. wrote:Silly you call it meaningless yet the same transports will be used to deploy SF deep into the heart of the enemy, they are not war fighting equipment per say but they enable a respectable war.
Your lack of logical thinking clearly has no limits. A handful of SF transports, 10-12 dont constitute anywhere near the fighting punch 126 MMRCA do and nor are the former anywhere near as hard to replace or represent the financial outlay 126MMRCA do.
uture for the IA, these aren't being ordered just to swing our proverbial dicks but also fire off shells in anger when needed. S-70B will be ordered and as many as 120+ could be made in India if they win the multiple tenders. What about the P-8I, which plugs plenty of gaping holes in our sub defenses?
See above and think.
As for Pakistan, no one comparing India to Pak, they use submissive begging bowl strategies to get around the SD, we can and should tackle the US from the prospective of strength and not to worry about the silly effing SD which is but a small part of a large cog. We can use the large corps. themselves like GE at the moment for the proposed co-dev of the engines for AMCA. Thanks to lobbying, all favors can be bought. To me a large buy of sub hunting helos/aircraft is just as important as fighters.
You were the one quoting Pakistan as an example.
Why the heck should India do anything to keep on the good side of your SD?
You can be more loyal to the king than the king himself, but India looks after its own interests.
Sub hunting aircraft are not day one of the war, door kickers in case of an Indo-Pak shooting war.
The MMRCA buy is for something like Mumbai 26/11 redux. Go figure.
he proposed co-development of F414 derivative for AMCA with GE is a good litmus test. Hope they come to their senses and clear it. All am saying is India needn't worry about the SD. This clear differentiation of war fighting and dual use equipment is not needed. You either choose to do business with a nation or you don't, all this middle ground shit doesn't help anyone.
India has managed its interests and sovereignty without being like your lovely Pakistan, thanks much. Given you don't run the US either, your claims of what India should or should not worry about, are equally meaningless.
indranilroy wrote:I don't understand the IAF's point here. So, what they are saying is either Rafale, or Gripen because we have to replace the Mig-21s and Mig-27s.
Let me for a moment believe that LCA Mk-1 is a lemon in A2A. Can it not do ground attacks of the Mig-27s? So, why not replace the Mig-27s with the LCA Mk1/1.5s. We have 165 Mig-27s to replace.
By that time, the Mk2s will arrive. If all airplanes in the IAFs stable have to multirole (for reasons best known to them), then replace the Mk1s/Mk1.5s with Mk2s. They are cheap! If we get the Rafales for 150million a piece, we would laugh our way to the bank (they are currently negotiating them for 200 million a piece). We can get 5-7 LCA Mk1s at that price! Donate the retired Mk1s to firendly countries and become great!
This is the true test of Parrikar. Can he stand up to the lobbies?
Bingo. I have been pointing this out for ages now. The LCA MK-1 is anyday better than the strikers like MiG-27s, and the Jaguars in A2A for sure. Better than the Bison as well. So why the faux reluctance to take it and keep claiming "we are protecting taxpayer onlee" and at the same time, turning around and asking for 100Mn plus birds?
Its amazing how the IAF can point to PLAAF as a threat and as an example of strength etc and the PAF as a problem, whilst at the same time doing the exact opposite of what the PLAAF and PAF, do, which is buy local.
Last edited by Karan M on 02 Jun 2015 22:49, edited 1 time in total.
Prem Kumar wrote:The IAF's demand of "we want Rafale & nothing else", combined with the moral high horse of "we will fight with what we have" is like a wife demanding her 15th Kanjeepuram Silk Saree, while claiming that "I can even live on rice porridge if push comes to shove"
as long as even one iota of hope exists to get more gripen or rafale, people will keep raising issues with the Tejas.
premature retirement of a few drum beaters followed by a joint press conf with the survivors with MSM in full and mandatory attendance is needed to cut the knot.
The IAF, said sources, would project its requirement before the minister and state that a “mere” 36 jets would not meet the shortfall occurring due to the phasing out of MiG-21 and MiG-27 jets by 2022. [/b]
Sources? Yesterday I passed wind and the sound came out like "Buy RRRaptorrr". That's a source.
But where a political decision has to be made by the DM. All these dalals & farticles will have no effect. The dicision will be made on the basis of cold reality and the needs of the IAF. This govt has enough political muscle to make it happen.
If the Brass has problems with that, they will be made to fall on their own swords.
I am amazed at the brazenness of the IAF.They are simply pfrofligate.As many have pointed out,no disrespect to their combat skills,but to expect to get the most expensive toys ,drink champagne,vintage wines,aged malt whisky,XO cognac,eat caviar,foie gras ,escargot,etc.,wear Dior,YSL,whatever;
when what we can afford is rustic fare,dal and chappatis,balti chicken,rogan josh and rice with some sabjis,khadi and cottons,quaff good old Hercules XXX and IMFL....want ails them?
It is past time that the GOI,PM,DM et al smacked some sense into the IAF's head. In a war with China,territory in the high Himalayas matter most. The nation cannot yet again lose territory and face to the war-mongering PRC. The MSC has to be established in full strength. The IN's sub fleet and SSBN strat sub fleet along with the MSC has to take priority ,as well as giving the IAF the requisite numbers to counter a Sino-Pak JV.But we simply cannot afford as the DM said Mercs and Beemers and Audis for the services. If the IAF is unhappy with only 36 ultra-expensive Rafales then let them lump it.
They will have to swallow the LCAs in as many number as HAL can churn out in the national interest. Frankly I too don't see dramatic production results from HAL,but it should be capable of producing at least 100+within 6 years at a rate of about 16/yr if the top bosses are lashed and chained to to the treadmill! The rest of the numbers should come from a cost-effective decision,buy a few more sqds. of aircraft already in service,MIG-29UGs and MKIs. at around $35M a MIG-29,it is the cheapest option and easiest to induct. MKIs are also half the price of one Rafale as the DM said and the Super-Sukhoi capability should be superior to that of the Rafale with the BMos and LR-AAM anti-AWACS capability.
Karan M wrote:Your lack of logical thinking clearly has no limits. A handful of SF transports, 10-12 don't constitute anywhere near the fighting punch 126 MMRCA do and nor are the former anywhere near as hard to replace or represent the financial outlay 126MMRCA do.
See above and think.
You were the one quoting Pakistan as an example.
Why the heck should India do anything to keep on the good side of your SD?
You can be more loyal to the king than the king himself, but India looks after its own interests.
Sub hunting aircraft are not day one of the war, door kickers in case of an Indo-Pak shooting war.
The MMRCA buy is for something like Mumbai 26/11 redux. Go figure.
India has managed its interests and sovereignty without being like your lovely Pakistan, thanks much. Given you don't run the US either, your claims of what India should or should not worry about, are equally meaningless.
I never said 126 fighters equals the punch of 10-12 SF transports but in this day and age of unconventional warfare SF deployments are equally important if not more. Sub hunting aircraft may or may not be day one assets but the biggest threat India faces today is the sub fleet of China. PLAAF/PAF will have a hard time even with IAF's reduced strength but with its significant numbers, enemy Subs pose a bigger threat on any day, it is quite silly to underestimate them. Also the so called door kickers will be Brahmos and other rocket artillery, it would be utterly stupid to send in the limited fleet we have into enemy air space without first neutralizing the enemy's early warning assets.
And your supposed endless store of logic fails to understand that there is no way an all out war with Pak or china can even occur without American blessing it is better to have them on our side than not. You are the one who keeps worrying about the SD, not me. I am the one saying SD is insignificant in the grand scheme of things and can be managed.
Matter of fact the slow but steady increase in buying killer hardware from the US only shows that trust can be built over time. Sure, the 126 fighters from the US won't happen but heck the reason for it should be perhaps the SH being an older design and Raffy/EF being .5 gen ahead rather than the same old lame ass excuse of trust, while in the mean time we are buying more and more hardware from them.
Prem Kumar wrote:The IAF's demand of "we want Rafale & nothing else", combined with the moral high horse of "we will fight with what we have" is like a wife demanding her 15th Kanjeepuram Silk Saree, while claiming that "I can even live on rice porridge if push comes to shove"
the IAF isn't all bad. They worked from the choices and terms offered to them by the MMS govt. It's not their fault. With the LCA, the current platform may not be as effective or as safe for a pilot in a war fighting scenario. No one joins the Forces just to die uselessly,trying to exploit less than acceptable/effective weapons. The pilots are also entitled to their opinions on risk and survival criteria when they are asked to go into action. The input of the man in the hot seat is far more important that what you or I may think in the air conditioned environs of our comfortable drawing rooms. Their pay and benefits and support systems for the disabled soldier are not so great that you will find an endless stream of willing recruits just waiting to give up their lives.
We do have the money we need. India is certainly NOT a poor country, just a badly managed one where any f@cking foreigner can take over the reins of the GOI and impose her will on a billion plus people without anyone opening their pie holes. This is not a situation obtaining in any country in the whole wide world.
Diversity and democracy, thus defined, be damned, doubly damned.
If the IAF can be given what they want, do so. LCA is currently a non starter and no effing nation in the universe is going to sell you an engine + technology to produce it in India. The goras have us by the short and curlies and every gora knows it. In the analysis of the goras, even if there was the faintest of chances of India developing a single engine military fighter engine on it's own, they would have sold you the required engine by now just to get a head start on the market as also (more importantly) to stop you from actually acquiring the capability to make said engine.
The goras are very apprehensive of the rise of India once again. They well know what India was in the earlier centuries. A second unassailable asian economic and military powerhouse if actually allowed to rise will be the beginning of the end of white dominance.
Without a credible defence, all the progress is useless if we cannot protect our economic supply lines or borders. no amount of pious socialist claptrap about farmers and the "people" is going to help if your oil supply is easily blockaded or borders breached and you are helpless to defend yourself effectively. That ass hole nehru already proved what happens to a country that got badly beaten in war by some chinese because of less attention paid to the Forces. We lost our national confidence for decades and are still unsure of our diplomatic footing today because of that single defeat.
Chetak, with all due respect, there is ample evidence already to note that the LCA is anything but a non starter. There is equally substantive evidence to show that AHQ in its cussedness is operating airframes which are worse off in capabilities - MiG21s, 27s and even Jaguars in several criteria.
We saw much the same with Arjun, organizational inertia, brazen stubbornness (my way or else) and sheer import frenzy have led to the IAF making suboptimal decisions time and again.
Their latest behavior viz the Rafale vs LCA and the manner in which rtd Air Marshals lobby for these aspects is beyond credulity.
All the credible defense stuff only goes so far. One Rafale can easily procure small arms and BPJs for a huge number of troops in terms of price , but the IAF is busy in its empire building without any substantive analysis of how to develop local capabilities by being a stakeholder and not a customer who wants to own the entire empire, yet wash its hands off of the tough and grimy work of actually building a working fighter.
Engines are available (Ge 414) and if this is an issue (engine alone) please inform the IAF which is going for a Jaguar upgrade to the US.
Completely different from having the entire product imported from abroad like the Rafale.
The simple answer is that many of the IAFs voluble spokespeople - several of whom are writing on blogs wagehra/thinktanks/TV debates - are to a T exceptionally import oriented when it comes to matters regarding manufacture, R&D. They don't even bother disguising their bias and their lack of even basic awareness is jarring.
An exIAF chief has now narrowly escaped censure for everything from dodgy choppers, to track2 on siachen. He was also one of the voluble sorts who was busy trying to curtail investments in local programs while setting himself up for a JV with the yehudis. Is he the only sort to have done all this?
The hidden guys, the dedicated IAF folks who work with local industry, all the non glamorous, thankless work whom Deejay referred to, work in the shadows and don't get their due.
Can you tell me how many engineering or transport pilots have a shot at becoming the head of the IAF?
Meanwhile the rtd brass, talk from both sides of their mouth. On the one hand, they will speak of how expensive the LCA is etc and how much money has been spent on it (which is not even a mere fraction of what the IAF wants imported), on the other hand they indulge in double speak regarding the Rafale and other programs and ask for gold plated imports.
Again, even there, they want to bear no responsibility for things like logistics, lifecycle support etc. All that is MOD/HALs issue, domain. So make unreasonable choices, and put the onus of the non sexy, grimy work on an already dysfunctional system which is designed to perpetuate imports.
This sort of constant import, import, import fetish needs to be broken.
As regards India not being a poor country, perhaps. But the issue is simple. India is as rich as GOI has money to pay for things.
Fact is though, that tax money, financial inflows to the Govt are what matter as versus expenditure.
And here, our record is dubious. We spend the largest chunk of our hard earned money on defence, and a huge proportion of our forex.
We dont get enough bang for our buck and the military bears a huge chunk of the blame for that. Buying 1900 tanks and then cribbing that there isnt enough money for maintenance - well, when the planning was done, why didnt you buy 1400 tanks then?
This sort of empire building with two hoots for long term sustainment is common across all services. Get as much as you can now, move files for the rest later.
We simply don't have an infinite spigot that keeps turning for the IAF to keep getting whatever it wants whereas it does the exact opposite of what the PRC and Pak guys do. They support their local industry 100x more than the IAF ever has and cut their cloth according to their budget.
If all they think they want to be are "air warriors", then they shouldn't be meddling in things like production, strategy, and logistics et al. However, the problem is they claim they are the first, want to be accountable only for the first, yet run the entire show via leaks, pressure and an import oriented thought process. That is simply untenable since we don't have that kind of financing.
The ideal world would have the IAF acknowledge they are not just air warriors, have to be more in an era wherein a missile fired by a tenth pass jihadi can damage their multimillion$ jet, and work with local industry to break the import stranglehold.
For that they will have to get out of their fighter jock fetish and start giving due credit to talent across their spectrum, chopper, transport, engineering whosoever. Set up institutes for design interface/programs, own engineering support beyond the BRDs. Doesnt look like that will happen though.
Karan M wrote:Chetak, with all due respect, there is ample evidence already to note that the LCA is anything but a non starter. There is equally substantive evidence to show that AHQ in its cussedness is operating airframes which are worse off in capabilities - MiG21s, 27s and even Jaguars in several criteria.
Karan,
No argument there.
But all those aircraft were done deals for whatever reason. We have/had no options but to operate the said aircraft. That the IAF has lumped it in the above cases is no argument for them lumping it again. They have a choice now. All arguments with respect to the arms import lobby and greedy b@stards in the forces and MOD and politicians is very true and more but the aam jantha/aam jawan in the forces needs the best we can give them. The lives of families of martyred soldiers is mostly a very grim nightmare. A few articulate city dwelling widows do come on TV and are very aggressive but the vast, vast majority of the widows and families are doomed to a grey and hope less life, drained of all dignity and on extremely tight budgets with nary a hope of any systemic support. They are the actual folks who are lumping it, without choice, without hope and without a future.
The jawans fight without effective BPJs which other armies consider as common and as essential as langots. I recently stopped and chatted with an ordinary young jawan on airport security in a small regional airport. I was so very happy to see him carrying a MP5 which he so proudly showed me. Not many are so privileged to carry such weapons. I often spend time like this and ask about their service conditions. Not pleasant to hear.
is this how we treat our guys who often without choice, wind up dead, whilst protecting some (actually expendable!!) ungrateful and privileged Indians ?? I don't think so.
^^^"And here, our record is dubious. We spend the largest chunk of our hard earned money on defence, and a huge proportion of our forex. "
I believe 85% of our defense budget goes to salaries/pensions and opex. Only 15% goes to capex or ~$5bn/year most of which in the past has gone back to MoF unspent within the fiscal year. This unspent money had become a major budget plug for the MoF to support UPA's populist buy the vote schemes.
From any objective outsider's viewpoint (Indian or non-Indian), you could say the our military is superbly equipped and organized to fight....1965.
Cosmo_R wrote:^^^"And here, our record is dubious. We spend the largest chunk of our hard earned money on defence, and a huge proportion of our forex. "
I believe 85% of our defense budget goes to salaries/pensions and opex. Only 15% goes to capex or ~$5bn/year most of which in the past has gone back to MoF unspent within the fiscal year. This unspent money had become a major budget plug for the MoF to support UPA's populist buy the vote schemes.
From any objective outsider's viewpoint (Indian or non-Indian), you could say the our military is superbly equipped and organized to fight....1965.
That "unspent" money was NEVER meant to be spent. It was just a place that some fraud trickster like chidambaram parked the money awaiting madam's pleasure so that some NAC jokers could blow it up in an attempt to buy votes for the congis and specially buy votes for pappu, for him to make it to the PMs gaddi.
This trick has happened far too often to be anything but a deliberately planned exercise. Salting away the money and later claiming it to be unspent. The units were deliberately told that there was a budgetary crunch and no further expenses were allowed. Travel, training, fuel and critical spares and capex expenses were ruthlessly pruned to give madam her "gift". what else would you expect from a foreigner?? and her Indian sepoys??
Many pliable chiefs have made it to ambassadorships and governorships using this very route. Many have contributed "a days salary" of their service without even asking anyone. Expensive way to suck up to the MOD guys who saw such trickery as ass licking. No one has ever heard of the IAS officers giving up a days salary for any cause.
Septimus P. wrote:And your supposed endless store of logic fails to understand that there is no way an all out war with Pak or china can even occur without American blessing it is better to have them on our side than not. You are the one who keeps worrying about the SD, not me. I am the one saying SD is insignificant in the grand scheme of things and can be managed.
I fail to see how that American blessing - a mirage actually - helped us in 1965 or 1971. In fact Nixon and Kissinger were clearly on Pakistan's side during the entire '71 conflict. It was an all out war and Pakistan got its ass whupped. Please wake up from your vegetative coma.
At the short of a giant octopus attacking Planet Earth, there will likely never be an all out war between the two countries. It will be more of a short, limited but effective campaign that will seriously blunt Pakistan's offensive military capability and teach her a lesson. You cannot shut the country down and tell the MNCs and Indian conglomerates that we are out of business for the next two - three weeks while we go fight an all out war. It does not work that way anymore. There are lot of factors in play.
Septimus P. wrote:Matter of fact the slow but steady increase in buying killer hardware from the US only shows that trust can be built over time. Sure, the 126 fighters from the US won't happen but heck the reason for it should be perhaps the SH being an older design and Raffy/EF being .5 gen ahead rather than the same old lame ass excuse of trust, while in the mean time we are buying more and more hardware from them.
Trust takes decades to build, but trust will evaporate in a blink of an eye. I am sure you will be parroting this same tune if India takes a unilateral decision to punish Pakistan for something like a Mumbai redux. See how quickly sanctions come.
what is this talk of people trying to add yet another type to the IAF! Not efficient way to run an air force.
