Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10, 2015

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 11 Jul 2015 08:11

Guys, to all those who say I am dhoti shivering, just kindly answer a few questions. What were ModiJi's compulsion for his U-Turn.

He clearly promised a more muscular approach to TSP. Being a pragmatist, I never quite believed that brag given India's lack of overwhelming military power over TSP, and TSP's 3.5, but at least I thought the one leverage India has: TSP wanting India's attention through talks and other forms of engagement like kirket, will be used by a a nationalist like ModiJI to make TSP behave.

He did the right thing by aggressive defense along the LoC, he did the right thing by cancelling talks with TSP for making the Harried rats a party to talks.

Why the f%ck did ModiJi have to go back on this fundamental promise? What were his compulsions to make a U-turn?

I am no supporter of Cong traitors, and you don't need them to mock ModiJi. Just see what Maroof Raza is saying. Just see what Sushant Sareen is saying. Just see what retd. gen Bakshi is saying. Just see what K. C. Singh is saying (although I agree he is a bit of chameleon).

Are you telling me that Indian army is so weak that we cannot even defend ourselves from TSP provocations, let alone punish TSP? I mean, sitting a far, and I will admit, I am not privy to all of the pressures an Indian leader is in: "US pressure" or "Russian pressure" which don't sound that convincing, tell me what is wrong with the stance ModiJi had till now? He could have easily told the Americans or the Russians, look, India doesn't mind engaging the Pakis, but here is our bare minimum. You have an Al Queda problem. You have a Chechen problem? Can't you at least respect out PoV on LeT? Are you telling me that India is so weak that it cannot articulate its position in such a coherent manner with the big boys?

The thing that bugs me no end is why the need to unilaterally kiss up to TSP? What are India's weaknesses that TSP is able to so deftly exploit? Or is it case of BJP wanting to divert attention from all the domestic pressures he is in (that doesn't sound convincing I agree)?

Trying to spin this as some kind of "victory" is scraping the bottom of the barrel, it is so pathetic, shameful.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 11 Jul 2015 08:25

Birkin Babe, sherry Shake and Bewaqoof Snakes

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 11 Jul 2015 09:09

The strategy as doval ji mentioned is: Offensive defense. Not just offense and not just defense.

The kongis were conniving with the pakis, so comparing with them is useless.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 11 Jul 2015 09:35

Every word of that joint statement I read bull$t alert goes in my mind. Did they really meet to discuss this! Anything related to 26/11 or for that matter any terrorism NS is unable to deliver, everybody knows that.

Why I think NS desperately needs Indian intel on his jernails and this could be the ice breaker. Sartaj Aziz is a long term ally of NS. I do not believe when AD meets Sartaj both will discuss how to stop terrorism. Doval will not be wasting his time on SA. From the beginning Doval has maintained the stand that India is capable of defending itself with or without pakistan's cooperation.

Looks like there are more sinister things going on in pakiland. NS needs Doval. I think better wait and watch.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 11 Jul 2015 09:40

^^^Interesting angle.

Also, there would be international pressure. And of course, it seems like a well-thought out policy: controlled aggression with the threat of uncontrolled aggression hanging in the background.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 11 Jul 2015 09:44

partha wrote:Why Did Modi Talk to Pakistan?

However, official sources say, Modi recognized he could not take a hardline on Pakistan without lines of communication to Islamabad – this would let Pakistan talk up the “nuclear flashpoint” claim and encourage international pressure to build up.

With all due respect to this guy who wrote this report, its horse manure that can't even be used as a fertilizer, and he needs to have his head examined. India is so weak, that TSP can say "nuke flashpoint", and the world will come down with a danda on India's back side, and India has to surrender. And to prevent that, Indian surrendered now, and its a great Chanakyan victory. Give me a vreak.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 11 Jul 2015 09:50

Other than spitting on this US mouthpiece, I don't know how else to respond to US statement

http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/us-welco ... ing-780311

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 11 Jul 2015 09:59

Pls CRamS saar stop being scared of NDTV

Mukul ‏@MukulAgarwal66

The number of people watching @NDTV will be less than those reading/ following the 45 or so twitterites who were present at the meeting {meeting Modi}

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 11 Jul 2015 10:01

CRamS don't hate your enemy so much that your hate will turn into paranoia

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 11 Jul 2015 10:06

partha wrote:Why Did Modi Talk to Pakistan?
However, official sources say, Modi recognized he could not take a hardline on Pakistan without lines of communication to Islamabad – this would let Pakistan talk up the “nuclear flashpoint” claim and encourage international pressure to build up.

Whatever may be the reason for talking to Pakistan, whatever may be the merits or demerits of it, I have certain reservations with the formulations being given in the above article. Pakistan is an underdog, to say the least, in the India-Pakistan milieu and like all underdogs, it tries to use every trick of the trade. The nuclear flashpoint is one such tool and there are powerful buyers for this theory as well. It is under this rubric that the US has been hitherto 'advising' India not to retaliate promising her to tighten the screws on Pakistan as a concession. The US is unable to do so for various reasons and Pakistan has found this nuclear card a very useful tool to gain freedom from retaliation for its terrorism. The US analysts like Ms. C.Fair might say that India is unable to retaliate because of nuclear arms but the truth is that the US is unable to keep its promise and India is unwilling/unable to force the issue with the US. Therefore, Pakistan would use the nuclear card whether we talk to them or not.

And it sets tests for Pakistan like 26/11 related voice samples.

And it has comprehensively failed every test since 1947 and it won't be an exception this time too.

The US and other foreign governments had warned India that the combination of harsh language by Modi’s ministers, the LoC exchanges and the Myanmar raid had jacked up Pakistan’s neurotic fears of an Indian threat.

Intelligence showed that the Pakistan military had been expanding its engagement with militant groups – a possible precursor to a terrorist strike.

Even a symbolic gesture to Islamabad, the case was made to New Delhi, would help reduce the rising paranoia in Rawalpindi. The breakthrough may have come just in time.

Pakistan could be an irrational state like North Korea, but this facade of 'neurotic fears of an Indian threat' is a carefully manufactured one because it sees huge dividends in pretending to be paranoid about India. Its actions are justified on that score, India is pressurized into taking non-threatening steps, it receives arms & amunition on the specious argument that strengthening it militarily would make it overcome its fear psychosis etc. All humbug, as we know. But, Pakistan benefits enormously from this.

Pakistan has no intention and no incentive to change. OTOH, it has every motivation to do more of the same.

habal · Post by **habal** » 11 Jul 2015 10:12

partha wrote:Why Did Modi Talk to Pakistan?

Can one put it in this way too.. Modi didn't talk to Pakistan

Modi just talked to Nawaz Sharif.

For some strange reason India has always had dialogue with the democratic dispensation of Pakistan. As weak as they are, it is this dialogue with India that strengthens their hands internally in Pakistan and also gives them leverage vis-a-vis TSPA.

I don't know why our folks do this repeatedly, we could have as well dealt with just jernails and ISI just like the Americans, Saudis, Afghans do and gained more from that dialogue. But we rarely involve military in state level meetings. It is just DGMO-level contact between rangers and BSF or rangers and IA. And rangers are just small fry in TSPA.

If we were sincere about region, we would have been talking directly to TSPA. It really worked for us when Musharraf was TSPA commander and civilian leader, most of the benefits of dialogue were reaped then by us.

It seems that India just runs silent deep in the oceans like an Orca while Pakistan makes a lot of noise near the surface, create a ruckus like a sand shark.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 11 Jul 2015 10:17

History is self evident that talks between India and Pakistan are what they are called, Talks only. Both pretend to do so. Nothing substantial will come out of this one too like the other talks in past. Drag it one for another 8-9 years and concentrate on economic growth for quadrupling the GDP to go beyond, past this Ghass to pakistan.

habal · Post by **habal** » 11 Jul 2015 10:31

Exactly, the feelings are absolutely mutual but India doesn't make a hue and cry about it nor does it disturb the water trying to do so. Some folks think of that as acquiescence or compliance/agreement with activities of Pakistan or as State Dept or Pakistan outwitting India.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 11 Jul 2015 10:50

TSPA & kongis are two sides of the same coin. They will never destroy each other totally. Does TSPA want issues to be settled? No. Do kongis want TSPA to be destroyed? No.

TSPA is looting the bakiland. kongis are looting dhesh. Both show each other as the boogey man to their populations. So, kongis want to keep the dhesh divided into various regional issues or regional warlords. From their perspective, even TSPA is also a regional warlord with whom they make deals just like lalloo or mullah-yam. Even recently, one can easily see both kongis and TSPA coming to each other's defense. They are allies to say the least.

Now, the saffron party is not kongis. They are not interested in protecting bakiland or their army. So, if push comes to shove, they will go the whole hog.

Moreover, there is a dream of Akand Bhaarath. One can already see this vision being implemented by strengthening the economic ties within the region. Now, Akand Bhaarath is a very long-term project requiring several stages. But, it would be difficult to achieve it without first dismantling bakiland. At some stage, bakiland has to be dismantled to progress to next stage of the project.

If pakistan could be broken in 71, easily the POK issue could also have been settled at the same time especially since 90,000 POWs had surrendered. But, shimla agreement clearly shows that congress didn't want to change the status quo in Kashmir.

habal · Post by **habal** » 11 Jul 2015 10:58

I am thinking like TSPA has left it's card by throwing sand into the supper and throwing it's visiting card in the Sharif-Modi talks by killing a BSF jawan.

India can respond by taking Sharif's side and giving TSPA a bloody nose at a time of it's choosing. As in just when Raheel Sharif puts more pressure in Sindh via his rangers, India can intervene and open up other fronts and protect both Zardari and Sharif from TSPA action, or atleast that's what these two may want and thus forcing good Sharif to meet Modi. In return there will be intelligence exchanges and access given. Raheel Sharif can bully good Sharif and Zardari but he can not bully India who is 800 pound gorilla. India also has long-term plans for TSPA and that is exactly why MMS was not able to sign on the dotted line, he and his team had worked out all details with Pakistan but he wasn't able to close the deal even after a year. That MMS was not able to close the deal was because he was not able to overcome those elements in India who were dead against TSPA gaining some time to settle and some peace and prosperity for economy in interim.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Jul 2015 11:35

If you trust that NaMo is working in India's best interests instead of e.g., angling for a Nobel Peace Prize, or getting some nostalgia tour of where his grandparents lived, then what's the problem?

If you don't trust him, what do you want to do anyway?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 11 Jul 2015 11:45

Pakistani opposition is equally upset with Nawaz Sharif. - DT

ISLAMABAD: As government looked upbeat on meeting between Nawaz Sharif and his Indian counterpart Narendra Modi in the Russian town of Ufa on Friday, opposition parties back at home were not so starry-eyed. Soon after Nawaz and Modi shook hands at the Congress Hall in Ufa and signalled a symbolic ceasefire in a heated political arena, an infuriated Senator Rehman Malik dispatched a press release that detailed his reading of the icebreaker. “The recent meeting [of] Modi with Sharif clearly demonstrates how disrespectful Mr Modi was towards Sharif,” Malik was quoted by a spokesman as saying. The former interior minister compared Modi to ‘the Tsar of Russia’ as he described how the two state leaders interacted. “[Our prime minister] was made to walk through a long corridor towards Modi’s chair/throne. [Modi] didn’t show the slightest courtesy under diplomatic norms for his Pakistani counterpart to walk a few steps forward to receive him.” At the end, he termed Modi’s approach ‘rude and undiplomatic’ and chastised Nawaz for ‘badly hurting the feelings of the Pakistani nation’. Another PPP leader, Sherry Rehman, said the PPP has always supported a constructive peace process yet the joint statement issued after such an important meeting should have reflected Pakistan’s concerns clearly and precisely as well. “Right now, it is one sided. We welcome PM Modi to the SAARC summit and we support PM Sharif’s peace efforts, but breakthroughs in the bilateral relationship can only be achieved when concerns from both sides are successfully communicated,” she said, adding that, otherwise, such initiatives fall short of sustainable peace.

“Successful diplomacy is always about stating your case – in this case Pakistan’s concerns look as if they have been put on a collective back burner.” She said that talks between India and Pakistan have failed previously because of just that. “Not voicing our concerns immediately will inevitably lead to another stalemate once the contentious issues are finally put forward from our side. Attempts at skirting around hard-hitting issues, or postponing discussions on them for fear of an impasse have in the past too led to exactly that,” she said. Not one to be left behind, Shireen Mazari of the Pakistan Tehreek-i-Insaf (PTI) expressed dismay over the manner in which she felt Sharif ‘appeased India’ in the meeting. Mazari felt that Sharif’s invitation to the Indian head of state was unnecessary and ‘beyond the requirements of diplomatic protocol’, as the same would have gone out as a matter of routine. The PTI leader was equally disturbed at what she said was silence on the Kashmir issue and Indian involvement in Balochistan. “Modi raised Mumbai and Sharif agreed to ‘fast track’ the investigations. Not a word on Samjhota Express was uttered by PM Sharif,” she fumed. Dr Mussadik Malik, spokesperson for Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, appeared equally infuriated with the criticism of the premier. “With friends like him [Rehman Malik], who needs enemies?” “He is making a mountain out of a molehill. When two leaders of international stature meet, such minor details do not matter,” he said. He continued to say that Modi was the one to initiate contact when he called Nawaz to extend wishes for Ramazan. “Again the Indian government had confirmed the meeting between the two leaders on the sidelines of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation.”

member_28803 · Post by **member_28803** » 11 Jul 2015 12:04

For folks, especially those getting their knickers in a twist...here's my 2 cents. I will give you my 2 cents, and you gonna enjoy 'em!

Anyone who's worked in a customer/vendor/service provider type environment will know that their are a lot of politics involved before getting a unanimous buy-in or at least acceptance from a critical mass enough to get your deal signed-off. Most service providers will not treat all client personnel as a single entity. Everyone got their own agendas, internal politics, etc, etc. So you go out and find a person or two, whom you think will help you melt the lentils

Then you work on the other members, a little bit at a time.

Another analogy, in chess you don't go for a quick 4-move checkmate, instead you improve your position bit by bit, one move at a time. You don't go alla-ooo-akbar sacrificing your major/minor pieces hoping to score a quick CM.

MAD are playing chess, so let them play! Have some popcorn and enjoy the photo below....

habal · Post by **habal** » 11 Jul 2015 12:14

>> If you don't trust him, what do you want to do anyway?

my point was this,
1. why was MMS not able to get deal through despite 'sab ho gaya thaa' for almost an year before he remit office. The reason is India's pakistan policy is not congress or bjp centric and predates and precedes MMS. He has to break through that to get his bidding done. It didn't happen because the investments done by India in cultivating Pakistani 'elements' predates MMS and without their approval his sign on dotted lines means naught.

2. that Modi is seen to be doing nothing new is also indicative of an establishment which predates and supercedes Modi and he has to fit in his policies within this setup.

things are setup in such a way wherein the applecart or the imlicart can't be overturned, it can just be speeded up. So characters may change, or come and go but state policy remains the same. It can either slow down or be speeded up. UPA decided to slow down, Modi can decided to speed up whatever is in place now. There is no other policy and no possibility of entirely new policy.

Bhurishrava · Post by **Bhurishrava** » 11 Jul 2015 12:25

A_Gupta wrote:If you trust that NaMo is working in India's best interests instead of e.g., angling for a Nobel Peace Prize, or getting some nostalgia tour of where his grandparents lived, then what's the problem?

If you don't trust him, what do you want to do anyway?

Thats very "Oriental" indeed.
If we think he is doing something wrong, we criticise him. Show him and everyone how he is wrong and what not to do. And by continuing to do so we achieve better and more sensible leadership.

IMHO Modi was doing good in foreign policy till now.This is a big goofup. What message is he sending the indian diplomats all over the world. Dont push GoI line too much, it could change anyday. Big foolish step.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 11 Jul 2015 12:34

habal wrote:>> If you don't trust him, what do you want to do anyway?

my point was this,
1. why was MMS not able to get deal through despite 'sab ho gaya thaa' for almost an year before he remit office. The reason is India's pakistan policy is not congress or bjp centric and predates and precedes MMS. He has to break through that to get his bidding done. It didn't happen because the investments done by India in cultivating Pakistani 'elements' predates MMS and without their approval his sign on dotted lines means naught.

2. that Modi is seen to be doing nothing new is also indicative of an establishment which predates and supercedes Modi and he has to fit in his policies within this setup.

things are setup in such a way wherein the applecart or the imlicart can't be overturned, it can just be speeded up. So characters may change, or come and go but state policy remains the same. It can either slow down or be speeded up. UPA decided to slow down, Modi can decided to speed up whatever is in place now. There is no other policy and no possibility of entirely new policy.

Disagree.
TSPA backed out on loc issue. Siachin issue didn't go ahead because of internal opposition in dhesh.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 11 Jul 2015 12:36

Bhurishrava wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:If you trust that NaMo is working in India's best interests instead of e.g., angling for a Nobel Peace Prize, or getting some nostalgia tour of where his grandparents lived, then what's the problem?

If you don't trust him, what do you want to do anyway?
Thats very "Oriental" indeed.
If we think he is doing something wrong, we criticise him. Show him and everyone how he is wrong and what not to do. And by continuing to do so we achieve better and more sensible leadership.

IMHO Modi was doing good in foreign policy till now.This is a big goofup. What message is he sending the indian diplomats all over the world. Dont push GoI line too much, it could change anyday. Big foolish step.

What policy change?

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 11 Jul 2015 12:55

^^Ignoring the idiots till there is some forward movement in 26/11 case and Pak stops talking to Hurryrats. Now out of the blue PM wants to go and visit shitland.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 11 Jul 2015 13:10

RSoami wrote:^^Ignoring the idiots till there is some forward movement in 26/11 case and Pak stops talking to Hurryrats. Now out of the blue PM wants to go and visit shitland.

This whole meet was focused on how Pak is going to deliver on 26/11. And recently Bhaarath tried to corner Pak & china on 26/11. So, now the talk are only on terrorism with focus on 26/11 case and Pak delivering on it. And if Pakistan fails, Bhaarath will use it to corner Pakistan in international forums to get some kind of quarantine on them.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 11 Jul 2015 14:02

This meeting has the blessing of NSA. That tells something.There could be a huge political change happening in Pakistan and this could be just a long rope being handed over to Badmaash. I don't think this meeting is being done under pressure from Unkil or Aunty. Lets wait and have some popcorn.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 11 Jul 2015 16:18

A_Gupta wrote:If you trust that NaMo is working in India's best interests instead of e.g., angling for a Nobel Peace Prize, or getting some nostalgia tour of where his grandparents lived, then what's the problem?

If you don't trust him, what do you want to do anyway?

Well put!

All apprehensions regarding India's dealings with Pak are solely dependent on one's faith in Indian leadership. It is impossible for normal Abduls to read chai leaves after some chai-biscuit and say it is another Sharm-al-Sheikh!

How is India supposed to deal with Pak, read to solve Pak, if jingos say, we can't even talk to some constituencies there.

As long as India keeps the score > 3:1 dead, India should be allowed to pursue any politics Indian leadership deems necessary for finishing off Pak.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 11 Jul 2015 16:41

Pakistan says Kashmir issue will be tackled through ‘back-channel diplomacy’ - PTI, ToI

Pakistan has said Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and his Indian counterpart Narendra Modi have agreed in their meeting in Russia to address the issues of Kashmir, Siachen and Sir Creek through Track II diplomacy.

PM's adviser on national security and foreign affairs Sartaj Aziz on Friday said both leaders were of the opinion that for lasting peace the way forward was to address the outstanding issues like Kashmir, Siachen and Sir Creek.

"The two sides also agreed to take up these issues under the back-channel Track-II mechanism for better understanding of each other's point of view," the Dawn quoted Aziz as saying.

His remarks came after furor back in Pakistan for not mentioning Kashmir in the joint statement {the 'jaguar' is gone . . .} issued after the meeting between Sharif and Modi in Ufa, Russia yesterday.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 11 Jul 2015 16:49

My take on this (relatively superficial read based on inferences from news reports and no-chai wala or deep analysis here):

1. It is likely that Cheen demanded that India would need to "demonstrate" willingness to resolve issues peacefully with its neighbour (read Pakistan). One would have expected Russia to have done some lobbying for India in return for accommodating Pukis. While initiating talks with Pukis is a small price to pay for full SCO membership, which seems to be evolving into a functional regional forum for the strategic central asian region, the caveat is that India would not be full member till sometime in 2016 and may have to probably honor the announcement of PM Modiji's visiting Pukiland in 2016.

2. Given the dynamics of power politics between good and bad Sharif, it is better for India to have some lines of communication open. In that way it is better for NSAs to talk to each other rather than foreign secretaries. The late spook B.Raman, for instance used to comment on the need to have intelligence chiefs of India and Pakistan needing to talk to each other. Bad Sharif (Fauji) is considered to be a teetotaler jihadi and less progressive than his predecessor. So one would expect him to be more rabidly anti-India than Ganja Sharif who also has anti-India hatred in his genes but is easier to manage.

3. Some offensive defence capability is being groomed and this helps do it quietly.

In any case, the lack of mention of Kashmir is more important and positive for us than the allusion to == between India and Pukiland.

habal · Post by **habal** » 11 Jul 2015 17:10

schinnas wrote: 1. It is likely that Cheen demanded that India would need to "demonstrate" willingness to resolve issues peacefully with its neighbour (read Pakistan).

China has no such leverage over India.

Falijee · Post by **Falijee** » 11 Jul 2015 17:17

U.K. Suspect Skips Bail And Escapes To Pakistan !

London police are in hot pursuit to nab a suspect involved in grooming children in Rotherham town after he skipped bail and managed to flee to Pakistan.

London Police in the future should think twice, before granting bail

Thirty-eight-year-old Basharat Hussain was nabbed after the initiation of Operation Clover — aimed at probing allegations of sexual exploitation of children — and was released on bail in March.

habal · Post by **habal** » 11 Jul 2015 17:24

A_Gupta wrote:If you trust that NaMo is working in India's best interests instead of e.g., angling for a Nobel Peace Prize, or getting some nostalgia tour of where his grandparents lived, then what's the problem?

If you don't trust him, what do you want to do anyway?

It's not a question of trust or not trust. Policy predates MMS and supercedes NM.

MMS with all his powers could not force through any decision and neither could Vajpayee. This is the nature of the system, that individuals can not subvert it without raising considerable cost. If they do so, and they do not succeed then they will suffer tremendous loss of face. Thus folks err on side of caution.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Jul 2015 17:29

Bhurishrava wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:If you trust that NaMo is working in India's best interests instead of e.g., angling for a Nobel Peace Prize, or getting some nostalgia tour of where his grandparents lived, then what's the problem?

If you don't trust him, what do you want to do anyway?
Thats very "Oriental" indeed.
If we think he is doing something wrong, we criticise him. Show him and everyone how he is wrong and what not to do. And by continuing to do so we achieve better and more sensible leadership.

IMHO Modi was doing good in foreign policy till now.This is a big goofup. What message is he sending the indian diplomats all over the world. Dont push GoI line too much, it could change anyday. Big foolish step.

Criticize him, yes, but that is different from dhoti-shivering.

gandharva · Post by **gandharva** » 11 Jul 2015 17:46

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 11 Jul 2015 18:27

I see this as part of the SCO optics, necessary evil. I think there has been no let down from Modi. Continuation of carrot and stick approach. As a civilized society, one has to go through the motions...er pakistan.

ranjbe · Post by **ranjbe** » 11 Jul 2015 18:39

Altair wrote:This meeting has the blessing of NSA. That tells something.There could be a huge political change happening in Pakistan and this could be just a long rope being handed over to Badmaash. I don't think this meeting is being done under pressure from Unkil or Aunty. Lets wait and have some popcorn.

Perhaps there is a very unidimensional viewpoint (India versus Pakistan) propagated in this forum. Please look at how China handles issues with its adversaries. It has had talks with India for 20 plus years on the border issue without conceding anything that would be harmful to its vital interests. Perhaps you should be aware that Xi has met and talked both Abe and Japan and Aquino of Phillipines, countries with which it has much worse relations than India, in Asean and other forums at least a couple of times this year. It has Strategic talks with the USA once a year. If you have strong leadership which understands its vital interests, then talking with adversaries is a good safety valve. The question for forum members is whether you trust Modi and Doval to ensure India's best interests. If you do, then dhoti-shivering about any talks does not make any sense.

Bhurishrava · Post by **Bhurishrava** » 11 Jul 2015 18:50

The problem is not `talking`. The problem is blowing hot and cold. Not having a coherent policy. You talk and then you have kargil and you stop and then you talk and then they talk to hurryrats and then you stop.
As much as this keeps the Pakis confused, it keeps the indians confused too. Why this need for pappi jhappi all of a sudden. Its fine if you keep having chai biscuit sessions without conceding anything. But stopping and starting and stopping gives the image of a confused leadership both to Indians as well as abroad.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 11 Jul 2015 19:17

A_GuptaJi, no dhoti-shivering sir, only positive criticism. I have faith in ModiJi, and while I am disappointed at this meeting, its a far cry from MMS's surrender at Havana, Thimpu, Sharm el Sheikh, "Hindu terror" etc.

Guys, among all the theories put forth regarding ModiJi's decsion, the ones that comes closest to making sense to me are:

1. Sadly, and we have debated this here, nobody, including the US/UK fraudsters, and Chinese thugs are willing to turn the screws on TSP for India-centric terror. Russian attitude was disappointing as well. And with all of them demanding that India make piss with TSP unconcerned one jot about terror arrayed against India, thus, its was India, not TSP getting isolated. (That there should be a vigorous debate within India about this, and there should a national consensus and outrage expressed at this betrayal, is another matter).

2. On the contrary with US handing over Afghanistan to TSP, and lavishing it with aid and arms, it seemed to me that ModiJi concluded that TSP can up the ante, and while Modi/Doval aggressive defense will be in play, at some point that will lead to diminishing returns, and divert him from his larger economic agenda to revive India. So he opted for a mini surrender of sorts in the hope of throwing TSP off balance.

3. But the joint statement is so loosely worded that he is bound to get disappointed on two counts:

a. TSP will interpret it the way they want: Samjotha, Baluchistan, MQM, you name it, and will make a farce of any terror talks.

b. Cong traitors in India not to be left behind will mock every move ModiJi makes on TSP (you should have seen the smirking womanizer Tharoor, and uncouth Kesavan piling it on ModiJi last night).

As a genuine nationalist whose agenda is India revival, ModiJi will absorb these taunts, but the wild card as always will be at what point TSP will up the ante. We know elementary TSP 101 dictates that TSP cannot let go off terror, because if it did, it will cease to be TSP.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Jul 2015 19:27

^^^ "mini surrender" is not dhoti-shivering?

----

MJ Akbar's take as as good as any other,
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/analysis ... arc-vision

PS: "...And with all of them demanding that India make piss with TSP" --- what actual pressure was exerted on India, please do inform.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 11 Jul 2015 19:34

People who watch NDTV (Tharoor & Kesavan) dhoti-shiver .....

Another interesting exercise .... folks who dhoti-shiver at the drop of the hat ... check back how many positive news they have posted wrt the current gov in the achievements thread, economy, railway, road, political or any other thread and then compare it to how many times they rush to announce that the sky is falling or Modi is loosing GE2019.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 11 Jul 2015 19:51

Bhurishrava wrote:The problem is not `talking`. The problem is blowing hot and cold. Not having a coherent policy. You talk and then you have kargil and you stop and then you talk and then they talk to hurryrats and then you stop.
As much as this keeps the Pakis confused, it keeps the indians confused too. Why this need for pappi jhappi all of a sudden. Its fine if you keep having chai biscuit sessions without conceding anything. But stopping and starting and stopping gives the image of a confused leadership both to Indians as well as abroad.

Thats offensive-defense. Or carrot & stick. This is a well-thought out strategy and seems to be working. BTW, these talks are only and only about terrorism. And 26/11 is specifically mentioned.

Stick: Modi's anti-pakistan election rhetoric.
Carrot: Modi inviting Nawaz to swearing-in ceremony.
Stick: LOC gets heated up and Bhaarath replies in unprecedented manner.
Carrot: Nawaz meets Modi in SAARC at Nepal.
Stick: Meeting Pakistan delegation cancelled because they met Hurriyat.
Carrot: Secretary visits Pakistan and promises further meetings.
Stick: BD speech, Defence minister's declaration, ...etc making it clear that terrorists will be pursued even in they hide in Pakistan.
Carrot: Meeting Nawaz in Russia.

BTW, this is one of the rare Indo-Pak releases where Kashmir is not mentioned by name.

Modi is squeezing the bakis step by step.