The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc) - II

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 12 Dec 2015 09:44

KrishnaK wrote:
deejay wrote:TSJ, Iran wasn't there at the start. Iran came in as American support became ineffective. Iraqis were getting slaughtered. The country's institutions had long since (2003) evaporated and the rest was done in by the Shia - Sunni divide exacerbated by the ISIS. Reaching out to Iran became a matter of survival -literally since the Americans were ineffective.
Iran has been meddling in Iraq right from the beginning, of the US invasion. Moqtada AlSadr and his militia were a prime example.

If Iraqis are striking Ramadi to beat the ISIS and they give target coordinates of the ISIS, how is this an Iranian backed agenda? Why should targeting any ISIS position be an Iranian backed agenda and not an Iraqi agenda? It is not as if the targets presented by Iraqis to the US, place the adequately sized USAF in an either / or situation (We bomb their targets or bomb our targets - we can't bomb both). Essentially, US is using Iran as an excuse to not bomb ISIS and play to the cheers of Turkish galleries.
The Iraqi Shia are only interested in killing Sunnis.

Some of the worst sectarian strife ever has occurred after the start of the Iraq War, steadily building up to the present.[8] Deaths from American and allied military collateral damage[101] have become overshadowed by the cycle of Sunni–Shia revenge killing—Sunni often used car bombs, while Shia favored death squads.[102]
According to one estimate, as of early 2008, 1,121 suicide bombers have blown themselves up in Iraq.[103] Sunni suicide bombers have targeted not only thousands of civilians,[104] but mosques, shrines,[105] wedding and funeral processions,[106] markets, hospitals, offices, and streets.[107] Sunni insurgent organizations include Ansar al-Islam.[108] Radical groups include Al-Tawhid Wal-Jihad, Jaish al-Ta'ifa al-Mansurah, Jeish Muhammad, and Black Banner Organization.[109]

from Iraq War. It has links that you can explore if you don't believe wiki quality.

Having gotten rid of Saddam and put into power, it was very much the responsibility of the shiites to keep the country from disintegrating this bad. But that would require a genuine effort at rapprochement with the Sunni tribes.

US was in place and in position with required assets to stop ISIS and yet it let ISIS grow stronger. Even today, the US can become effective and replace the dependence on Iran.

The Shia - Sunni divide always existed but Iraq was peaceful despite all this prior to the great American intervention. Creation of ISIS was a result of faulty US policies of encouraging armed rebellion using Sunni groups in Syria.
Iraq was peaceful before the great American intervention ? Saddam never slaughtered the Shia in his country you mean ? You only have to google that info up. America seriously overestimated its capacity to understand how fractured the society in Iraq was AND its own capacity to rebuild Iraq. That was the error in judgement. The place is f*ed up beyond redemption. The US can't fix it.

Sad, that people who paid the price for US 'playing the Arabs' were Yezidis, Kurds, Iraqis etc.
The US isn't playing the arabs anymore than they are playing India/Pak. They cant' get out of the middle east, can't replace Saudi Arabia, can't fix the insecurity, hatreds, bigotry. It is for the arabs to find statesmanship which isn't forthcoming. It somehow seems easier to conjure up conspiracy theories to explain things though.

KrishnaK, it was difficult to understand where you were quoting me and where you were quoting wiki.

Anyways, your one line statements don't make your words true. In your own quote of wiki all groups marked are Sunni. If it is the Sunni ISIS killing Iraqis how and why will the Iraqi army kill Shias?

I am not here to take sides of Shias or Iran. Frankly, I couldn't care less. My question to TSJ was about the role of US vis-a-vis ISIS.
The US made a mess of Iraq in 2003, made a mess of Syria with the overt support and funding to the Sunni rebels since 2011 and a result of all this was ISIS.

In 2014, when ISIS struck Iraq, they were an 800 strong militia. US started bombing the ISIS when they were 20,000 strong. Even today, they are 20,000 strong as per the number shared by US. Russian sources have quoted 70,000 fighters recently.

How did the ISIS grow so big so soon while US was bombing them? Isn't US an ally of Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Jordan (all Sunni states or Sunni ruled states)? Is US an ally of a Shia state? Isn't US taking sides in the Shia - Sunni conflict?

ISIS has fantastic weapons. Their advanced weapons are of US origin.

Here is the latest update posted by ISIS. I am quoting it from Shia twitter handle as I avoid going to ISIS handles. It is dangerous to do so in India. There is more but you will have to take the trouble of research and not just wiki.
https://twitter.com/IraqiSecurity

Haidar Sumeri ‏@IraqiSecurity now5 hours ago
Da'ish carrying out combat exercises out in the open.

So... Umm... Has anyone seen the coalition around?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 12 Dec 2015 09:49

It's very simple to figure out.
1. Georgia hates Putin but is terrified of him, their army will probably hide if the Balaclava-Vodka brigade passes through, but then come out to do

at them after they pass. Their herrowic ex-leader is now sitting in Kiev.
2. Armenia hates Putin but hates Turkey faaaaaar more. "Armenian Genocide".
3. Azerbaijan hates Putin but hates Armenia more, and besides, Iran will probably put a good word in.
So all in all, I think it will be a bidding war as to who collects baksheesh for letting Putin's vodka brigades through.

Deejay, why do ISISh1ts wear masks when training out in the open? Isn't it because those guys are white mercenaries (ex-USA/ USSF?), not Islamic terrorists at all? Now don't we have an explanation as to why 'captured' American tanks and missiles become suddenly so usable to the 'terrorists'?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Dec 2015 09:56

KrishnaK wrote: Having gotten rid of Saddam and put into power, it was very much the responsibility of the shiites to keep the country from disintegrating this bad. But that would require a genuine effort at rapprochement with the Sunni tribes.

The US got rid of Saddam because he had nuclear weapons and then disappeared the nukes. They then put a puppet Shia government in power and you are saying that it was the responsibiity of the US's puppet government to prevent the disintegration of the country?

The US can't fix it.

No shyte?

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 12 Dec 2015 10:01

Ah the trucks maybe of US origin but the tanks and tracked armored personnel carriers originate from a certain arctic country where the leader likes to go bare chested and is much beloved in South Asia.

However the boots the holy warriors are wearing look American.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 12 Dec 2015 10:09

Left behind when their former owners followed their American training and changed swiftly into sandals and burkhas to disappear. Standard Pakistan Army procedure.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Dec 2015 11:33

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/d ... ssia-syria

Putin vows to 'immediately destroy' any threaten to Russian forces in Syria
President says military will respond with full force to any ‘further provocations’ following shooting down of warplane by Turkey
Vladimir Putin says Russian air attacks have helped change the situation on the ground in Syria.

Ian Black Middle East editor
Friday 11 December 2015

Vladimir Putin has vowed Russia’s military will “immediately destroy” any target threatening them in Syria, representing a strong warning to Turkey following its shooting down of a Russian warplane at the Syrian border.

Speaking at a meeting with senior commanders in Moscow, Putin said the military should respond with full force to any “further provocations”, adding that additional aircraft and air defence weapons have been sent to the Russian base near Latakia.

“I order you to act in the toughest way,” the Russian president said. “Any targets threatening the Russian groups of forces or our land infrastructure should be immediately destroyed.”
At least 50 dead after Isis truck-bomb attacks in Kurdish-controlled Syria

In continuing violence, Islamic State claimed responsibility for a triple suicide truck bombing that killed 50 to 60 Kurds in Tell Tamer in the Hasaka area of northern Syria, while the UN said it was sending its senior relief official, Stephen O’Brien, to Damascus to examine the deteriorating humanitarian situation.

The downing of the Russian bomber by a Turkish fighter jet on 24 November, the first time a Nato member shot down a Russian plane in more than half a century, has badly strained relations between Moscow and Ankara.

Turkey said it downed the plane after it violated its airspace for 17 seconds despite repeated warnings. Russia has insisted the plane remained in Syrian airspace. Putin denounced the Turkish action as a “treacherous stab in the back”.

Putin said Russian military action in Syria was essential to protect Russia from extremists based there, adding that fending off that threat is the main goal of the air campaign he launched on 30 September. The campaign took advantage of western disarray and galvanised efforts to end the four-and-a-half-year war.

Vladimir Putin made his comments during a meeting with senior commanders in Moscow. Photograph: Alexei Druzhinin/ITAR-TASS Photo/Corbis

Putin said Russian action supporting the Syrian army had helped change the situation on the ground. He said Russia was also helping providing air cover to some units of the opposition Free Syrian Army, which were fighting “terrorists” in Syria.

Western countries say Russian air attacks have targeted rebels fighting President Bashar al-Assad far more than Isis, reinforcing the impression that Moscow’s main goal is to bolster its long-standing ally in Damascus.

The US and Britain have meanwhile welcomed agreement by Syrian opposition groups to hold talks with Assad in the new year. But the Syrians are still insisting he stands down at once – in the face of strong resistance from Russia and Iran, the president’s closest allies.

Three days of talks in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, produced a statement by 116 representatives of both political and armed factions backing negotiations. That keeps diplomacy on track along with military operations against Isis, in line with the UN-backed strategy laid down in Vienna last month.

John Kerry, the US secretary of state, welcomed the Riyadh agreement by what he called “an extremely diverse group of Syrians” who created a negotiating body to represent them. The last talks between the Syrian government and opposition groups were in Geneva in January 2014 and got nowhere. Kerry admitted, however, that there were still some “kinks” to be ironed out.

The opposition reiterated the demand that Assad step down at the start of a transition process. It also committed to preserving Syrian state institutions. By contrast, the US, UK and other western countries have signalled that Assad could remain in power for an unspecified period during the transition.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Dec 2015 11:45

Der Fraurer is chicken?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... Trump.html
Angela Merkel is doing more damage to the future of the West than Donald Trump
The founders of the European Union wanted it to give Christendom modern democratic form, but this is now nearly invisible

Muslims gather in front of Regent's Park Mosque to march in protest to the Danish embassy in Sloane Street in London in 2005
By Charles Moore
11 Dec 2015

One day, a historian will pinpoint exactly when we in the West started talking about Muslims. It came surprisingly late. Even in anti-immigration rhetoric, mention of religion used to be rare. The issue then was race. Enoch Powell’s famous “Rivers of Blood” speech of 1968 did not tackle religion. In the index of Simon Heffer’s definitive biography of Powell, the words “Islam” and “Muslim” do not appear.

Probably the first time in modern Britain that Muslims, so named, became the big headline was in 1989. The Ayatollah Khominei’s fatwa called for the death of Salman Rushdie because of his “blasphemous” novel The Satanic Verses. This made waves in the United States too, but my guess is that the question of Islam did not reach the front of the American mind until 11 September 2001.

Sir Salman Rushdie faces the threat of reprisals from Indian Muslims after a leading Islamic institute demanded the government ban his scheduled appearance at the Jaipur Literature Festival.
Salman Rushdie was forced into hiding after Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini issued a fatwa for his execution Photo: AFP

Fewer than 15 years later, it is the hottest subject. This week, Donald Trump made it hotter still. He wants a “complete and total shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country’s elected representatives can work out what is going on”.

How have we reached this plight? Until we know the answer, we shall not begin to be able to decide how to get out of it.

Like most other commentators, I agree that Mr Trump’s remarks were nasty and dangerous – nasty because they libel millions of decent people, dangerous because they could drive such people to think: “If you hate and fear us, we must hate and fear you.”

But there is another reason why he has caused such a stir. Like all skilled populists, Mr Trump is touching (or rather trampling) on a real problem. If, after all, he had replaced the word “Muslims” with the words “Hindus” or “Christians” or “Jews”, everyone would immediately have concluded that he was, as well as nasty, mad. Politically, that would have been the end of him.

Alas, there are two true things lying behind his idiotic policy suggestion. The first is that the problem is about Muslims. The second is that our “elected representatives” do not know what to do about it.

The above-mentioned Ayatollah Khomeini also said “Islam is politics”. He meant that Islam tells you how to rule, and therefore any unIslamic way of ruling is illegitimate. His remark also implied that his religious status meant that the best person to rule – directly in his own stamping ground, Iran, and indirectly, through his teaching, everywhere – was one Ayatollah Ruollah Khomeini. Islam was his power grab.

Donald Trump reacts as he speaks at the 2015 FreedomFest in Las Vegas, Nevada July 11, 2015.
Donald Trump's remarks are nasty and dangerous - but he is stepping on a real problem Photo: Reuters

Khomeini was a Shia, but a similar way of weaponising the faith was also developed in Sunni Islam. It stands behind organisations like the Muslim Brotherhood (linked here with the Muslim Association of Britain), Jamaat-e-Islami (strong among some members of the Muslim Council of Britain) and Hizb Ut-Tahrir.

It rests not only on an interpretation of the words of God allegedly spoken through the mouth of his Prophet, but on a tale of grievance. In this tale, bad people – colonial powers, Christians, Jews, America, “hypocrite” Muslim monarchs – destroyed the right rule of true Islam (the caliphate) and humiliated the faithful.

'There is a tremendous reluctance to study the genealogy of the harmful ideas'

This world-view is known as “Islamism”. Islam itself is related to Islamism as patriotism is related to nationalism, the former being based on love of something, the latter on hatred of something else. Islamism validates resentment. Its emotional appeal is like that of communism and fascism, but stronger, because it promises heaven to those who commit its violent acts on earth.

Police escort an Islamist demonstrator marching to protest outside the US embassy in London

Such ideas have become powerful in the West, partly because of arithmetic: we now have a great many Muslims in our midst – far more here, proportionately, than in Mr Trump’s country, and more in France than here. The risk of violence rises with the total. Even if it is true that 99 per cent of Muslims would not hurt a fly, when you increase the numbers you inevitably get more of those who would. People are, therefore, right to worry more about mass immigration from, say, Syria, than from, say, Poland.

But, even with high numbers, the problem would be much less severe if our leaders and institutions had greater cultural confidence. If they upheld a robust belief in the Western way of life, reflected in what our schools taught, what the BBC broadcast, what rules of citizenship were insisted on, and what was considered injurious to our values, then the doctrines of Islamism would be better resisted.

'Islamism is, by self-definition, a political attempt to undermine parliamentary democracy, yet is largely unstudied. If our own spies won’t do it, who can?'

It is not as if our institutions refuse to have any public doctrine at all – look at the preaching against climate change, or racism. If Mr Trump starts shouting, or Tommy Robinson, formerly of the English Defence League, pops up, the authorities all know how to try to squash their “unacceptable” thoughts.

But if Muslim leaders say that the plight of their brethren in Britain today is like that of Jews in Germany in the Thirties, or that no Muslim should serve in the British armed services against a Muslim country, no one jumps on them. It is not only Jeremy Corbyn, dining last night with what would be better called the Stop the West Coalition, who devoutly believes the narrative of our “Islamophobia”: it is almost the official orthodoxy.

There is a tremendous reluctance to study the genealogy of the harmful ideas. None of the Islamist organisations named above is, so far as I know, actively engaged in promoting violence in this country, but all of them preach extremism which creates the mental space in which violence can breed.

For years, David Cameron has been pushing this point, but the bureaucratic response is agonisingly slow. The website of MI5 still emphasises that, since the Cold War, “we no longer undertake counter-subversion work”. Instead they concentrate on terrorism. Goodness knows, there is a need to head off actual plots, and MI5 should be congratulated for its success, but one reason we won the Cold War was because we understood what, ideologically, we were up against. The ideological content of Islamism is even more important than was that of latter-day Soviet Communism, and much more persuasive within a section of the British population.

The ideological content of Islamism is even more important than was that of latter-day Soviet Communism

The Security Service Act of 1989 allows MI5 to investigate attempts to “undermine parliamentary democracy” by “political” means as well as violent ones. Islamism is, by self-definition, a political attempt to undermine parliamentary democracy, yet is largely unstudied. If our own spies won’t do it, who can? Public bodies dealing with Muslim organisations are, therefore, fighting blind, having few means of telling the good guys from the bad.

Ultimately, the capacity of a civilisation to resist those who hate it depends on its self-belief. In Europe, this was expressed in what was called Christendom, enriched by the ideas of the Enlightenment. The founders of the European Union wanted it to give Christendom modern democratic form, but this is now nearly invisible. The leader of the union’s largest Christian Democrat party, Angela Merkel, has let more than a million mainly Muslim immigrants into her country this year alone. The East German pastor’s daughter is surely a much nicer person than Donald J Trump, but I wonder if she is not doing more actual harm to the future of the West.

Bhurishrava · Post by **Bhurishrava** » 12 Dec 2015 13:39

Bhurishrava · Post by **Bhurishrava** » 12 Dec 2015 13:48

This is some hard landing for the sole suppapawwa, but here is some reality check.

US of A has zero leverage on Saudi Arabia and Turkey. It will do well to withdraw all troops and weapons and go home and focus on baby foods.
Russia should secure its base and stop there too.

Gods left west Asia in 7th century AD. Let the Shias, Sunnis and Persians, Arabs and Turks, Kurds kill each other, rape each others women and enslave each others children. The civilized world will do well to simply stay away.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 12 Dec 2015 14:03

Singha Saar here is a photo from Jisr -al-Shughrur

Ibrahim Joudeh ‏@Ibra_Joudeh now13 hours ago
#Moderate Rebels in Jisr al-#Shughur Burn #Cigarettes & #Books With Bin #Laden Portrait in The Background
#Syria

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 12 Dec 2015 15:08

Azerbaijanees are gentle folks. Georgians behave like pakeees

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 12 Dec 2015 15:47

Yes yes the problem with Iraq is Iran meddled. Otherwise everything would have been peachy according to the well laid plans of Cheney rummy etc.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 12 Dec 2015 19:07

I remember watching TV pictures of US tanks on the bridges across the Tigris river in Baghdad in 2003 with disbelief and saying to myself, "This is not going to end well", even as the US Government was crowing about Saddam's army having folded and deserted and George Bush declared "victory". 12 years later, today, the entire region is in flames.

The Arab world is not ready for and does not want democracy. Islam by definition as stated in the article posted by Philip is opposed to parliamentary democracy. The Iranian version is a theocracy.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 12 Dec 2015 19:30

Why did Aziz Sancar dedicate his Nobel Prize to Atatürk? - Dec 12, 2015

Being a Muslim country with a secular democracy (and a free economy) used to be something that the Turkish Republic was proud of and praised for. U.S. President Barack Obama’s speech in the Turkish parliament in April 2009, during his first overseas stop after being elected president, had emphasized those qualities in order to present Turkey as an example for other Muslim countries. However, ever since the Arab Spring broke out at the end of 2010 in Tunisia, Turkey has been gradually dragged into the turmoil in the Middle East, first in Libya, then in Egypt, and finally in Syria. The issues now affecting Turkey and the region not only have political, but also sectarian dimensions.

During the CNN interview, Abbasi { Aziz } said Turkey was partly responsible for the turmoil in the Middle East, claiming that “everybody knew” Turkey and Qatar supported the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL).

The CNN moderator did not allow further claims, saying simply that both countries rejected those allegations.

Both Turkey and Qatar are actually members of the U.S.-led coalition against ISIL, and ISIL has been on Turkey’s terrorist blacklist since September 2013. But politics has more to do with perceptions than actual realities. If this is the perception of today’s Turkey in the secular Muslim world and also in the West, then it is a pity. It is also the exact opposite of the perception of modern Turkey founded by Atatürk that had persisted until just a few years ago. Probably it was such a growing perception that led Sancar to dedicate his Nobel Prize to Atatürk on Dec. 11.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 12 Dec 2015 19:34

ldev wrote:I remember watching TV pictures of US tanks on the bridges across the Tigris river in Baghdad in 2003 with disbelief and saying to myself, "This is not going to end well", even as the US Government was crowing about Saddam's army having folded and deserted and George Bush declared "victory". 12 years later, today, the entire region is in flames.

The Arab world is not ready for and does not want democracy. Islam by definition as stated in the article posted by Philip is opposed to parliamentary democracy. The Iranian version is a theocracy.

The irony of 'foreign forced democracy'. Democracy by definition cannot be coerced by foreigners.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 12 Dec 2015 19:48

Turkey - Russia Relationship - Petrified vs Liquefied policy- Dec 12, 2015

Which countries benefit and which countries suffer from the Turkey-Russia crisis is widely discussed these days. But the answer is sought in the wrong place - in the old bipolar world order that does not exist anymore.

A new order prevails today. The U.S. and Russia are not on opposite fronts, nor are the countries in the region split along such bipolar lines. This is exactly why Turkey has found itself in a most complicated situation in the aftermath of its tension with Russia.

The current world order is best defined by Polish sociologist Zygmunt Bauman in his book “Liquid Modernity.” Accordingly, we are living in “liquid times” and therefore alliances are also liquid. The coalition to fight the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), for instance, was formed solely to launch a mission against ISIL. Hence it is a pragmatic and short-term coalition and will dissolve right after the mission is completed.

In this “liquid” anti-ISIL alliance, the U.S. and Russia are standing side-by-side. Moreover, these two countries seem to have split Iraq and Syria among themselves. Washington has been content with Moscow’s intervention in Syria mainly because this will lay the burden of the fight with ISIL in Syria on Russia.

Instead the U.S. now seems to be planning to show its strength in Iraq. Washington had to suspend its joint airstrikes and upcoming operation with Turkey in Syria in the aftermath of the Turkey-Russia crisis. It seems to have given up Syria to Russia and shifted its priority instead to Iraq’s Mosul. In short, even though the U.S. and Russia are rivals, they act in coordination in this struggle.

This is exactly why the countries in the region are not subject to the rule “you are either with the U.S. or with Russia.” They have all positioned themselves according to this “liquid alliance.”

After Russia’s intervention in Syria, a joint command center was established between Russia, Iraq, Iran and Syria. Hence this quartet is moving concertedly. This was proven last week when Russia acted as the protector of Baghdad as a crisis erupted between Turkey and Iraq over Turkey’s recent deployment of hundreds of soldiers at a base in northern Iraq.

Yet on the other hand, Baghdad also closely cooperates with the U.S. The same applies to Iran, which seems to be open to cooperating with Washington in the wake of its nuclear agreement with the West. It has been recently reported that Iranian militia forces will join the expected U.S. operation to Mosul soon. In other words, there seems to be some coordination between the U.S., Iraq and Iran as well.

Iraqi and Syrian Kurds are also acting along similar lines. Masoud Barzani, the president of the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) in northern Iraq, is a close ally of the U.S., and also in strategic cooperation with Turkey. Yet right after Russia intervened in Syria, Barzani didn’t refrain from saying they would be happy if Russia would support their Peshmerga forces. He is also trying to keep his relations with Baghdad balanced. Barzani recently showed the same attitude towards Iran when he said, “We are not a party; both Turkey and Iran are our friends,” right before he left Turkey on Dec. 11.

The Democratic Union Party (PYD) is also pursuing a similar policy. While it is living under the wings of the U.S., it is increasingly sidling up to Russia. Recently it also started to move along with the Iranian militia in Syria. Moreover, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad has just disclosed his support to the PYD.

Apparently the countries in the region and the forces on the ground have formed “liquid alliances” which are intermingled with each other. On the one hand they all act in compliance with the either U.S. or Russia-dominated axis, while on the other hand they flirt with the other axis as well.

So far Turkey had been following the same line. It continued its close cooperation with the U.S. despite their major disagreement on the PYD, while Ankara also maintained its good relations with Russia in spite of their major conflicts.

Yet Turkey’s recent crisis with Russia has suddenly turned this equilibrium upside down. Now Turkey has fallen across the Syria-Iraq-Iran axis pioneered by Russia. The most recent statements of Baghdad and Tehran, which were harshly critical of Turkey’s recent move in northern Iraq, indicate this shift.

Ankara acts in accordance with the zeitgeist by trying to control the recent tensions with Russia and Iraq and by not escalating its disagreement with the U.S. on the issue of the PYD. Yet its job has become much more difficult in the aftermath of the Russia crisis since it is now confined to only one axis.

So Turkey will most probably rapidly strengthen its relations with the U.S. And in order to do that it will certainly have to “liquidify” its PYD policy.

December/12/2015

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Dec 2015 20:56

Russia will complete the unfinished business of 19th century i.e. is end of Ottoman turkey. they liberated Bulgaria, Hungary, Bosnia, Romania & Serbia.
WWI liberated Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Now Anatolia needs to be liberated.

Mihaylo · Post by **Mihaylo** » 12 Dec 2015 20:56

ldev wrote:I remember watching TV pictures of US tanks on the bridges across the Tigris river in Baghdad in 2003 with disbelief and saying to myself, "This is not going to end well", even as the US Government was crowing about Saddam's army having folded and deserted and George Bush declared "victory". 12 years later, today, the entire region is in flames.

The Arab world is not ready for and does not want democracy. Islam by definition as stated in the article posted by Philip is opposed to parliamentary democracy. The Iranian version is a theocracy.

Your assumption is that the Iraq invasion was about enforcing democracy. It was about destabilizing regimes and introducing chaos in regions that were not aligned with the US. Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen....it has worked out exactly as planned.

We decapitate and do business with whatever's left... - Phil Leotardo in Sopranos

-M

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 12 Dec 2015 21:25

Mihaylo wrote:
Your assumption is that the Iraq invasion was about enforcing democracy. It was about destabilizing regimes and introducing chaos in regions that were not aligned with the US. Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen....it has worked out exactly as planned.

We decapitate and do business with whatever's left... - Phil Leotardo in Sopranos

-M

You are totally correct. I was merely saying that even the "stated" purpose of the intervention has not been achieved.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 12 Dec 2015 21:44

Again down memory lane, I remember my first visit to Kuwait, some 6 months prior to Saddam's invasion. I had to stay over their weekend (Thursday, Friday). I was dreading 2 days staying holed up in the hotel (no bars, no recreation) when my Kuwaiti business colleagues suggested going to Basra with them for the evening. I protested that I had no visa for Iraq nor a return visa into Kuwait. They laughed and said that their "wasta" (clout/influence) would take care of the border entry/exit. So I made an undocumented visit to Basra, Iraq. A two hour drive, some great nightclubs on Watan Street in Basra, where alcohol flowed freely and women dressed in western clothes and a late night/early morning 2 hour drive back. Unthinkable in today's Iraq.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 12 Dec 2015 22:05

This post is for the likes of GunterH who talked highly of puki capability on churning up CTs (and talked down some here):

Demo or Demos in ancient greek means common people.
Kretos (from which cracy comes) is rule.

So, democracy is common people ruling.

What Bush may have really meant was that he wants to spread demoncracy in middle-east (not Democracy).

Meaning Demon ruling the entire middle-east. That he achieved brilliantly. A simple misunderstanding caused him his entire legacy from being successful (although dumb) war wager to being a mass murderer.

However, going even further than greeks:

Demo is a cognate of dharma; Kretos is cognate of Kshetra.
DemoKretos is really meant to be DharmaKshetra - a rule that upholds dharma by dharma rakshaks.

Dharma Kshetra is preferable to what is known today as Democracy or Demoncracy where adharma prevails.

Shanu · Post by **Shanu** » 12 Dec 2015 23:40

ramana wrote:Russia will complete the unfinished business of 19th century i.e. is end of Ottoman turkey. they liberated Bulgaria, Hungary, Bosnia, Romania & Serbia. WWI liberated Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Now Anatolia needs to be liberated.

Sirji, any idea about the possible game plan?

I am still unable to find any source/resource which tells me how Putin can tackle the dual problem - close-down of Bosphorus and Unkil's support for the new Sultan.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Dec 2015 03:13

Kurds are one way.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Dec 2015 09:36

^ ofcourse they wont talk about it. proxy agents will be used to arm and motivate the PKK perhaps.

situation map of iraq

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Dec 2015 09:39

Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump Dec 11

Dopey Prince @Alwaleed_Talal wants to control our U.S. politicians with daddy’s money. Can’t do it when I get elected. #Trump2016

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Dec 2015 09:41

its in response to this
@Alwaleed_Talal Dec 11
.@realDonaldTrump
You are a disgrace not only to the GOP but to all America.
Withdraw from the U.S presidential race as you will never win.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015 ... to-country

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 13 Dec 2015 10:11

Kingdom of the Republican states of Umreeka? 51st state the great guardian of oyel?

edit -- akchually, if oyel is going to $20, then dig hole fill with enough oyel for 50 years, no? make ship, fill with oyel, park. no?

edit -- saudi arabia is the next venejuela, yes? No toilet paper onlee?

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 13 Dec 2015 10:29

deejay wrote: KrishnaK, it was difficult to understand

This much is pretty clear

Anyways, your one line statements don't make your words true. In your own quote of wiki all groups marked are Sunni. If it is the Sunni ISIS killing Iraqis how and why will the Iraqi army kill Shias?

Where did Iraqi army killing Shia come up from ? Shia death squads aren't made up.

Sunnis change names to avoid Shia death squads
The Militias win Iraq

I am not here to take sides of Shias or Iran. Frankly, I couldn't care less. My question to TSJ was about the role of US vis-a-vis ISIS.
The US made a mess of Iraq in 2003, made a mess of Syria with the overt support and funding to the Sunni rebels since 2011 and a result of all this was ISIS.

Camp Bucca: The US prison that became the birthplace of Isis

How the Islamic State evolved in an American prison

The Fight of Their Lives

Al Qaeda in Iraq was run largely by foreigners; ISIS is run by a council of former Iraqi generals, according to Hisham Alhashimi, an adviser to the Iraqi government and an expert on ISIS. Many are members of Saddam Hussein’s secular Baath Party who converted to radical Islam in American prisons.

ISIS came directly out of the Shia/Sunni dirty war.

There is more but you will have to take the trouble of research and not just wiki.

Wikipedia is usually of good quality and has references, if you had made the effort to visit them.

The way I read it, Obama has decided to let the Shia stew in a juice of their own making. If they really want peace, they'll have to rebuild relationships with the Sunnis and stop trying to run a state with private shiite militias.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 13 Dec 2015 10:35

KrishnaK wrote:
deejay wrote: KrishnaK, it was difficult to understand
This much is pretty clear

...

KrishnaK cute!

I try to be polite and you try sarcasm. Seriously! I was referring to your quoting style where both my quotes and wiki quotes were appearing as "Quote" except once. I have no enmity with you and shouting you out makes no sense. Not a battle between you and me.

Thanks. No more on this from me.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Dec 2015 10:42

themess forums:
Colombian media is reporting 15 mercenaries killed in a heavy battle around Taiz,Yemen. 10 Colombians KIA 2 British KIA 1 Mexican KIA 1 Frenchman and the Australian Commander have been killed.Names are being withheld.

--
British army officer turned mercenary and an Australian among 15 killed in Yemen fighting Iranian-backed rebels
Briton Arthur Kinston and Australia Phillip Streetman are reported dead
The men were killed in heavy fighting in the southern city of Taiz
Iranian media claims the mercenaries were being paid by Saudi Arabia
The Foreign Office is trying to determine exactly what has happened

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Dec 2015 10:45

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 13 Dec 2015 10:45

shiv wrote: The US got rid of Saddam because he had nuclear weapons and then disappeared the nukes. They then put a puppet Shia government in power and you are saying that it was the responsibiity of the US's puppet government to prevent the disintegration of the country?

The puppets were pretty complicit in the insurgency. Maliki very much depended on the likes of Sadr.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Dec 2015 10:48

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Dec 2015 10:54

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Dec 2015 10:55

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Dec 2015 10:58

big overall caliphate map here

http://cdn3.img.sputniknews.com/images/ ... 317159.png

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 13 Dec 2015 11:14

more coalition air strikes in Syria and Iraq.

http://www.defense.gov/News-Article-Vie ... syria-iraq

SOUTHWEST ASIA, December 12, 2015 — U.S. and coalition military forces have continued to attack Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant terrorists in Syria and Iraq, Combined Joint Task Force Operation Inherent Resolve officials reported today.

Officials reported details of the latest strikes, noting that assessments of results are based on initial reports.

Strikes in Syria

Fighter and remotely piloted aircraft conducted five strikes in Syria:

-- Near Manbij, one strike struck an ISIL tactical unit and destroyed an ISIL building and drone.

-- Near Mar’a, four strikes struck four separate ISIL tactical units, damaged four ISIL buildings and wounded two ISIL fighters.

Strikes in Iraq

Rocket artillery, bomber, fighter and remotely piloted aircraft conducted 12 strikes in Iraq, coordinated with and in support of Iraq’s government:

-- Near Al Baghdadi, one strike struck an ISIL tactical unit and wounded an ISIL fighter.

-- Near Makhmur, one strike struck an ISIL tactical unit and destroyed an ISIL fighting position.

-- Near Mosul, four strikes struck three separate ISIL tactical units and destroyed an ISIL light machine gun, three ISIL fighting positions, an ISIL heavy machine gun, an ISIL mortar tube, and suppressed an ISIL mortar position.

-- Near Ramadi, three strikes struck two separate ISIL tactical units and destroyed an ISIL anti-air artillery piece, an ISIL vehicle borne improvised explosive device (VBIED), an ISIL fighting position, an ISIL vehicle, an ISIL weapons cache, and two ISIL assembly areas.

-- Near Sinjar, three strikes struck two separate ISIL tactical units and destroyed an ISIL vehicle, an ISIL light machine gun, an ISIL fighting position, and an ISIL supply cache.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 13 Dec 2015 11:16

What's been said on BRF before?

Hassan Ridha ‏@sayed_ridha now3 hours ago
#JN leader Joulani: There is no army called #FSA, it is just a label for a series of groups who have no links with each other #Syria

JN: Jabaht al Nusra (Al Qaeda in Syria)

The full interview in Arabic here :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXgeoFlUY8Y

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 13 Dec 2015 12:15

SAA Reporter ‏@Syria_Protector 12 hours ago
#Breaking: #SAA, #NDF succeed to manage control over #Kassab highway through Qastal Ma'af in Northwestern #Lattakia

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 13 Dec 2015 12:20

Newsflash! UBCN update on US/NATO Cowalition AirStrikes on 400% Pure ISIS targets

At 06:00 hours Dec. 14, 12 F/A-18 Hornets from the USS Stonewall Jackson, and 6 Rafales from the Charles De Gaulle screamed off the decks on full afterburner, carrying a deadly load of air-to-surface missiles, JDAMs and other armaments. They struck 36 ISIS targets. Damage report follows:
1. 6 coffee mugs labeled "CIA" were dropped and broken.
2. 2 prayer mats were soiled.
3. 5 windows were broken in downtown Raqqa by the sonic booms.
4. One hospital marked "HOSPITAL: Medicins Sans Frontieres" was hit and seen to be in flames.
5. 12 pairs of military boots were recovered from the strike victims.